Prof. HANSON: Bob, I see this problem as one of the responsibilities of very top management. Unfortunately, this top management sought to take all the risks that we take within a capitalist system, but without any of the penalties when they failed. Employees suffered the downside of this: they lost their money, whereas senior executives left with much of their fortunes intact.

Rev. WALLIS: Treasury Secretary O'Neil said on a Sunday morning show that this is an example of a capitalist system where good decisions result in success and bad ones, failure. Well, that's not what happened here. What we have is a situation now where the people at the top of the economy have made good decisions or bad ones and they get rich either way, and those at the bottom -- ordinary people, employees and stockholders -- good decisions or bad ones, and they suffer. That's a systemic problem. This is an extreme case, but we have some more basic cultural and systemic issues here.

ABERNETHY: So what do we do? If the problems at Enron in Houston are problems for many businesses all over the country, how do we change that? Larry Zicklin?

Prof. ZICKLIN: Well, I think this in a seminal event is American business history and I think this will change a lot of things. It's already begun. If you look at the accounting firms that are now dividing themselves up into audit firms and consulting firms and ridding themselves of the conflict in consulting, it tells you that's a beginning. I think you are going to see some changes on the boards of directors. Boards are fearful now that actions are going to be brought against them and that they are going to be held liable. I think they are going to be more careful. Audit committees are going to be more careful. And I suspect management won't push their function beyond where it should go.

Prof. HANSON: I hope Larry is right. I guess I don't see that this will necessarily be THE seminal event. I think the whole history of the study of business ethics, the promotion of business ethics, is that it is reinforced by a succession of events like Enron. I was hired at the Stanford Business School in 1978, in the wake of the bribery scandals, the Lockheed scandal. That was the one that established and got this rolling, within at least secular universities in the United States.

ABERNETHY: So if there are predecessors here, okay, yes, but then how do we take this, or how does society take this and turn it into something that really is meaningful change?

Rev. WALLIS: By saying that this is not just a business scandal or even a political one, but it is a cultural issue here. I hope it is a seminal event. My question is: Where do Enron executives go to church? And are they hearing on Sunday mornings or Saturdays in their houses of worship, are they hearing preaching and teaching that talk about moral issues of economy? When this moves from a Sunday morning issue to a Monday morning question and back and forth, that's when it becomes, I think, a serious conversation.

Prof. HANSON: And I see this as part of a broader, societal problem of the winner takes all. We have created a culture, we experience a culture in which only the very top athletes, only the very top businesspeople, only the very top entertainers really see themselves as being very successful. And that's sad because that drives people to try to go for the extreme money, for the extreme success, rather then settling for success in a lot of other terms.

Rev. WALLIS: And winning by any means necessary.

ABERNETHY: Larry Zicklin?

Prof. ZICKLIN: I was just going to say, and this applies to a broader range of people than any other event we have had in our history. This is the management, this is the board, this is the audit committee, this is the accountants, this is the employees, this might also involve politics. This is an extraordinary event.

ABERNETHY: And do you think [it will] really cause serious change in the culture? That's a big assignment.

Prof. HANSON: Well, I think Larry's point, talking about the audit firms already beginning to separate their consulting activities, I think boards of directors here in Silicon Valley -- so many questions about what are the responsibilities of boards being asked just in the last few days -- I think there are elements that change is coming.

Rev. WALLIS: All those involved want to limit the damage. I want to extend the conversation.

ABERNETHY: Jim, that's the last word. Jim Wallis in Washington, Larry Zicklin in New York, Kirk Hanson in California -- many thanks to each of you.