Breaking down the verdict as jury finds Trump liable for sexual assault and defamation

Geoff Bennett:

Welcome to the "NewsHour."

A New York jury has formed found former President Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing columnist E. Jean Carroll at a department store in the mid 1990s and later defaming her, but it stopped short of saying Mr. Trump raped her.

Amna Nawaz:

The nine jurors deliberated for only a few hours before delivering their verdict and awarding Carroll $5 million.

Carroll didn't stop to talk as she left the courthouse, but said in a statement — quote — "I filed this lawsuit against Donald Trump to clear my name and to get my life back. Today, the world finally knows the truth."

Mr. Trump responded on his TRUTH Social platform, saying — quote — "I have absolutely no idea who this woman is. This verdict is a disgrace, a continuation of the greatest witch-hunt of all time." Mr. Trump's lawyers say they will appeal the verdict.

Andrea Bernstein is a reporter with ProPublica who also covers Trump legal matters for NPR. She was at the courthouse, joins us again tonight. And Laura Beth Nielsen is professor of sociology at Northwestern University and an attorney and researcher with the American Bar Foundation.

Welcome to you both. Thanks for joining us.

Andrea, you were in the courtroom.

Just describe for us what that moment was like as the verdict was read, and, specifically, if you saw any reaction from E. Jean Carroll herself.

Andrea Bernstein, ProPublica:

So, just after 3:00, the jury filed into the courtroom. The forewoman stood up.

The judge asked if the jury had reached a verdict. She said they had. An envelope was passed over to the judge. And there had been a verdict sheet. So, even though there were only two counts, the jury had to answer 10 questions. And the first question was, did the jury find by the preponderance of the evidence that Trump had raped E. Jean Carroll?

And the answer to that was no. But the second question was, did the jury find by the preponderance of the evidence that he had sexually abused E. Jean Carroll? And the answer was yes.

And then the questions went on from there. There was a questions about damages. There was questions about defamation. Did Trump defame E. Jean Carroll when he called her — when he said that it was a con job and a hoax? And the jury said, yes, there was defamation, yes, there was actual malice and said that Trump had to pay $5 million.

Now, the judge had instructed everyone, no outbursts. Don't get up. Don't say anything. So the lawyers were quiet, as was Carroll, who just looked straight ahead. But there were a number of young law associates from the firm representing Carroll who began weeping as the verdict was said, apparently in relief.

Amna Nawaz:

Professor Nielsen, Carroll, as you know, has long claimed Mr. Trump shoved her against a wall in a department store dressing room and raped her in the 1990s.

The jury deciding that she was sexually abused by him, but not raped, how should we look at that distinction here?

Laura Beth Nielsen, Northwestern University:

Well, the distinction in law is about penetration.

So what we know that he has been found liable for is touching, grabbing, groping for his own sexual pleasure against her will. And, in a way, it's a distinction without a difference. Somebody who's willing to do one over the objection of a victim is probably willing to do the other.

But from a legal standpoint, it is a different charge.

Amna Nawaz:

And, Professor Nielsen, the defamation verdict that Andrea just mentioned, the jury finding that Carroll proved she was injured as a result of Mr. Trump publicly denying those accusations, what does that mean about the legal bar that was met at in this trial?

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Well, the defamation burden of proof is higher than the finding of liability for sexual battery.

So this was they found by clear and convincing evidence that Donald Trump had defamed her. And so it's a higher standard. It means they're more sure that actually happened, versus preponderance of the evidence, which is a 51 percent standard.

But it goes to show that this is that — that these stories we tell about what rape victims would do if they had been really raped aren't being believed anymore. And you can't just assert those things about survivors of sexual assault.

Amna Nawaz:

Andrea, you have covered Mr. Trump for years. As you know, many women have accused him over those years of sexual misconduct. He's always denied those allegations.

Does Carroll's case being successfully pursued here by a jury, does that open him up to similar suits?

Andrea Bernstein:

Well, it certainly is a landmark.

And I think it's worth remembering that Trump has been accused since the 2016 campaign by many, many women, including many who've described a similar circumstance of him sort of bantering, engaging in lighthearted behavior, and then, all of a sudden, pushing them up against a wall, groping them, violating their personhood by proceeding.

And, in fact, there were two other victims who described what had happened at this trial that the judge said the jury could use to buttress her credibility. So I think we're in a situation where we have always said there are accusations and he's denied them.

Well, he's still denying them, but the significant thing is that a jury has found him liable. A jury has decided there was no con job, there was no hoax, that this happened. And that is significantly moving the needle here.

This case was filed under a new New York law called the Adult Survivors Act, which allows women from November of 2022 to November of 2023 to sue civilly when they are no longer allowed to prosecute criminally under the statute of limitations.

There are — adult victims have until next November. This was the first case that has gone to trial. And it's hard to predict behavior, but, certainly, women who — or men — who are considering filing cases now have an example of a positive outcome in the E. Jean Carroll case for their claims.

Amna Nawaz:

Professor Nielsen, we have to underscore here we're talking about a former president in this case. And E. Jean Carroll was just awarded $5 million by the jury here.

More broadly, when you look at the case and how it unfolded, what does this say about how courts will look at similar cases, sexual assault, sexual violence cases, when you have the word of one person pitted up against the word of another?

Laura Beth Nielsen:

I think both what we see in law and in the verdict of the jury, which was six men and three women, that there's an increasing awareness, understanding and belief that powerful men can also be serial sexual offenders.

There's an increased understanding and awareness that victims don't all report. They don't follow this one script for what legitimate rape victims do. And, with that understanding, there are going to be more — there are going to be more claims both civilly and criminally.

And I hope it emboldens survivors of assault to hold their abusers accountable.

Amna Nawaz:

Andrea, this is a former president who is also running again for the office of president.

In addition to the statement we saw earlier from him, his campaign has put out a statement, calling this a political witch-hunt and a political endeavor.

We have got less than a minute left here. What do you think we see from former President Trump when it comes to this case?

Andrea Bernstein:

Well, the jury certainly found otherwise.

And this is the first time that he himself has been found liable. So we are now once again, with Trump, in an unprecedented territory of having a candidate who wants to occupy the White House, who has been found by a jury liable for a sexual assault. And we will certainly be dealing with that for the duration, for as long as he is in the campaign, describing that behavior among this presidential aspirant.

Amna Nawaz:

Andrea Bernstein of ProPublica and Laura Beth Nielsen of Northwestern University, thank you both.

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Thank you.

Andrea Bernstein:

Thank you.