Brooks and Capehart on upcoming Jan. 6 committee vote on urging charges against Trump

Judy Woodruff:

The January 6 Committee prepares to vote on recommending criminal charges against the former president, Congress tries to avoid a government shutdown, and the front-runner to be the next speaker of the House still does not have a clear path to the gavel.

With all that swirling in Washington, we go to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

And hello to both of you on this Friday night. So much to pack into the next 12 minutes. We're going to start right away.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

And, Jonathan, I'm going to you first.

We just talked about the January 6 Committee on Monday, the wide reports tonight that they are going to recommend criminal referrals to the Justice Department against former President Trump, serious charges. What — what's your reaction? What do you make of it?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, my initial reaction is, good.

I think that it — well, one, we have to understand that these criminal referrals, they go to the Justice Department. The Justice Department doesn't have to do anything with them. So, for — they might very well just be symbolic, but I do think it's important for the American people to see at least some branch of the government taking proactive action to hold the former president accountable for what he did, for his actions on January 6.

So, there was contention over the summer whether the committee would even go this route, would even go this far. So to see them take this action — or will take this action Monday, I think is a terrific sign.

Judy Woodruff:

And, David, not surprised, but what does it say to you?

David Brooks:

Well, they have been sort of walking up to this.

I mean, the whole extent of the hearings led that it was about obstruction, it was about insurrection, it was about conspiracy to defraud, and those are possibly three of the charges they are going to recommend. And so they have been walking up. This was the logical conclusion.

Will it lead the Justice Department to press charges? I really — I don't know, but I wouldn't count on it. I think the Justice Department works by their own logic. They're very different from a legislative branch. And they will do what they will do. It — I don't think it'll be a huge push either way that these were charged.

But it is having a political effect. I was really struck by a USA Today poll this week, where they asked Republicans, do you want Donald Trump? And, by 2-1 margins, they want Trumpism, his approach, but they don't want Donald Trump. In a head-to-head matchup with Ron DeSantis, it was DeSantis up 56 to 33.

So, a lot of that is fallback — fallout from midterms. But I think the January 6 stuff is even having an effect, after a long, long time, on Republican voters.

Judy Woodruff:

Is it a blow to the committee, Jonathan, if Justice doesn't go ahead and make charges based on these referrals?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don't think it will be a blow to the committee.

But if the Justice Department doesn't take action, with all of the evidence that the committee has presented to the American people, not to mention the evidence to the Justice Department on its own possibly collected in its various investigations into what happened on January 6, that would be more disappointing.

I think the committee served its purpose. It investigated. It interviewed more than 1,000 witnesses. It put on compelling hearings for the American people in ways that the American people could listen, digest, understand, and learn about how close their government came to teetering, at the instigation of the former president.

And so I think whether the Justice Department moves on those referrals are or not, I think the committee has been a success. It was very important what they did, not just for educating the American people, but for history sake's.

Judy Woodruff:

What — how much do you think it matters whether Justice goes ahead, as a statement about the significance of this committee?

David Brooks:

I don't think it reflects the significance of the committee, but I do think it — well, it'll change the country if we have a criminal case against a sitting — or a former president. That will be just a massive effect.

When I think back on what the committee revealed to us, to me, the one big takeaway is that there really was a Trump structure behind what happened on January 6. So, I think, walking in, I thought he instigated, he gave the speech, inflammatory speeches, and then a lot of people, Proud Boys and everything else, marched.

But there was more to it than that. And so, to me, that is the nexus of what looks to me, as a nonlawyer, it looks to me like criminal activity.

Judy Woodruff:

You know, David — Jonathan, David touched on a poll this week about former President Trump.

And I want to tie that to the poll that the "NewsHour" did, collaborating with NPR and Marist, asking people not only about President Biden's approval, which is up a little bit, 43 percent, but they were — but they were — in each party — Democrats were asked about whether they think Joe Biden should be the nominee in 2024. Republicans were asked the same question about former President Trump.

And Biden, 35 percent of Democrats think he should be the nominee, for Trump, 45 percent. What does that tell us?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, on the Republican side, it tells us that, even though Trump's standing within the party seems to be waning, it's not waning as much as a lot of people think.

The fact that 45 percent of Republicans would like for him to be the nominees says that he's still very strong and that Democrats should not underestimate — should not underestimate him, that he says he's running. He made an announcement. We haven't seen a lot of them on the campaign trail. Maybe he's holding — saving all the energy for 2023.

But we will see if Ron DeSantis, Governor DeSantis, jumps into the race, whether Governor Abbott of Texas, whether he jumps into the race, Governor Sununu in New Hampshire, whether he jumps into the race. And then we will really see how much staying power Donald Trump has.

As for President Biden, the fact that 35 percent of Democrats want him to run for reelection doesn't tell me a whole lot, because Democrats have been wringing their hands about President Biden since the man took the oath of office. And I just would like for all of them to chill out. He's just two years into the first term. Let the man do his job.

And when he does his job, as we have seen over this last year alone, the dude gets stuff done. So, stop the hand-wringing, let him do his job, and let him decide whether he's going to run for reelection, which I think he will.

Judy Woodruff:

And what do you think about those…

(CROSSTALK)

David Brooks:

Yes, I'm sort of with Jonathan.

Judy Woodruff:

Yes.

David Brooks:

I — Democratic voters can be a big pain in the rear end.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

I mean, the guy has passed a lot of legislation. He has masterfully orchestrated a war in — or the Ukrainian effort against Russia. He's just more or less won the midterms.

What more do you want? I mean, so he's older than some people. But he's had a successful presidency, as far as I can tell.

And this is not just about Joe Biden and Joe Biden's age. This is something in the DNA of the Democratic Party I have never really understood, why they can't be loyal to guy who is like their guy.

Judy Woodruff:

All right, we heard it from both of you: Chill, and why can't you settle — calm down?

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

All right, let's talk about Congress.

They — Jonathan, today, they voted to keep the government funded for another entire week. What are you looking to see happen there? I mean, do you think this is going to get fixed before the end of the year or not?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don't know.

That's one of two dramas on Capitol Hill leading to the end of this year. They have got to come up with an omnibus bill, a big package that they can pass that will fund the government through the fiscal year, through the end of September.

The House comes back on the 21st. The goal is for the Senate to vote on this omnibus package on the 22nd, and then the House vote on it on the 23rd, which is the deadline. We're used to these tight-wire, tightrope walks at the end of the year, with Congress pushing up against deadlines.

But I think what makes this even more treacherous than previous tightrope walks is that the new Congress that comes in has a Republican majority that doesn't even know who its speaker is going to be and is filled with a lot of people who aren't interested in governing. They're interested in tearing things down.

So, it would behoove this current Congress to get it done so that it's off the table for the next Congress.

Judy Woodruff:

So, what do the next few weeks look like to you?

David Brooks:

Scintillating.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

The good news is, I don't think the government will shut down.

We went through that period starting, I guess, in '95, where there were serious government shutdowns. I think both parties have concluded that really hurts them both. The country just hates it when the government shuts down, and it's really hurt whoever is blamed for that. So, I don't think — I think they will muddle through.

The bad part is, we're muddling.

Judy Woodruff:

Yes.

David Brooks:

I have spent the week, like a lot of people, obsessing over this ChatGPT, this A.I. thing that looks like the biggest news event of the year or the decade. It just shows how much society is changing so quickly.

And we seem to have a government that can't adapt to that. And so we have a government which is essentially run by path dependency. We take — whatever we were spending on last year, we will just do that again. And so you don't see a lot of adaptation. You don't see a lot dynamism. You just see these emergency spending bills that seem to have no sense of priorities, which any normal organization would have, no sense,well, we should budget, send money over here, rather than over there.

And so it's just the constituencies that have been getting the money are getting more of the money, but without any sort of mind behind it. And so it's government by kludge, if that's a word.

Judy Woodruff:

Well, we just made it a word.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

Jonathan, you want to weigh in on what David, I mean, just essentially saying Congress is not doing anything right now?

I mean, they're clearly passing some legislation.

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

Judy Woodruff:

They have — it's not that they have done nothing.

Jonathan Capehart:

Sure.

Judy Woodruff:

But they're having real trouble with these spending decisions.

Jonathan Capehart:

Right. They are, also because there's a lot of pressure coming from the House on the Senate to not do anything on the omnibus bill.

But I want to go back to something in the Marist poll — in the NPR/PBS/Marist poll that sort of illuminates what David is talking about. The number one issue that voters said was important to them was inflation. Number two was threats to democracy.

And yet the incoming Congress, the incoming Republican majority, has made it clear that their number one priority is investigations and also impeachments. And so there's a disconnect between what the American people want Congress to focus on and what the incoming majority says it's going to focus on.

And, as long as there is that disconnect, then Congress will just keep muddling through, as David says, in the eyes of the American people.

Judy Woodruff:

And, David, connect that to the fact that Kevin McCarthy is not finding a very easy path to the speakership of the House.

David Brooks:

Yes, well, it's a fractious party, but it's more than that.

Karl Rove made a good point, that, if you look at — whatever you think of Kevin McCarthy — he is not probably going to be the greatest speaker on earth. I do think he will probably be speaker. But he raises money. He campaigns for other Republicans. He's part of the team.

And politics is a team sport. And so that means you give and get. You look at the people who are opposing him on the Republican side, they raised almost no money for their party, they did no campaigning. So they're not members of a team. They're not team players.

And so there's a rise of almost nihilism in the party that — people who just won't be team players. And if you are not willing to serve the institution, not willing to serve your party, you're undermining your party in a big way.

Judy Woodruff:

Well, on this very uplifting note…

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

… we're going to thank both of you.

David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, thank you.

David Brooks:

Thank you.