Former U.S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch on Russian motives and Ukrainian resistance

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• Judy Woodruff:

  Few Americans are as familiar with Ukraine as former U.S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. She made headlines in 2019 during former President Donald Trump's first impeachment inquiry, after she was called to testify before Congress about Mr. Trump's targeting her for opposing his political agenda in Ukraine.

  A short time ago, I spoke with Ambassador Yovanovitch about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and her new book, "Lessons From the Edge."

  Ambassador Yovanovitch, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on the book, "Lessons From the Edge."

  And I want to ask you about it in a moment, but, of course, first, Ukraine, the country you were representing the United States in as Ambassador.

  You not only bring your professional credentials. You come from a family, your parents were Russian immigrants. You were born in Canada, raised in the United States. You grew up understanding European history. What do you think is at stake in this war in Ukraine?

  Marie Yovanovitch, Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine: Well, I think President Biden got it exactly right when he said in the State of the Union that this is a struggle between freedom and tyranny.

  So this is about Ukraine and Vladimir Putin's desire to annex all of Ukraine. It wasn't enough just to take Crimea in 2019 and parts of the Donbass. He wants all of Ukraine now and perhaps to extend his domain even further.

  But I think the main issue for Putin is that the international order, the rules-based international order that was created after World War II, just isn't working for him, even though it has made most of us more prosperous, more free and more secure.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Is any part of what he's trying to do acceptable?

  I mean, if he were to, say, get part of Ukraine, if he were to take the east and, of course, keep Crimea and a little bit more, I mean, is that something you think the West should accept?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Well, I think this is about what Ukraine can accept.

  I mean, so often, in the run-up to this invasion, this war of choice that Putin has launched, we were asking ourselves, what does Russia want? And we were asking ourselves, what should we be doing? But very rarely did we ask ourselves, what do the Ukrainian people want?

  And the Ukrainian people, they want to join NATO. They want to join the E.U. They want the kinds of freedoms we enjoy here in the United States, they want a good life for their kids. And that's democracy. That's market — a market economy.

• Judy Woodruff:

  And, I mean, you mentioned the Ukrainian people. Are you surprised at the kind of stiff resistance they're putting up?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Well, I knew they were going to resist, but I am awed, just awed and amazed by how everybody, no matter how old or how young, is resisting. The tenacity, the strength is really inspiring.

• Judy Woodruff:

  You have seen the Biden administration, and I think you have said yourself that they need to do more than they have done.

  A lot of people said they should have given Ukraine more weapons, they should have provided more support. But, in the end, even if the United States were giving or the West were giving Ukraine offensive weapons, do you think that would have been the right thing to do?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  I think that defensive weapons are the way to go. I think we need to — first of all, I think we shouldn't take any options off the table. I think…

• Judy Woodruff:

  Including offensive weapons?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  I think we just leave them all on the table.

  That doesn't mean we do that, but we leave them on the table, because facts on the ground are changing every day. The views of the American people, the views of our politicians are changing every day, because we are seeing the destruction that Putin is wrecking on Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.

  They are paying in blood because they want to live like we do. And so I think we need to leave options on the table to see what comes next. And I think — which I believe that the administration is doing. And the administration has done a lot. But they need to keep on doing more.

  What are the options that we can send them and get them on the ground as soon as possible?

• Judy Woodruff:

  You have also said, I was reading, that Vladimir Putin senses fear, that if others don't respond boldly to him, he doesn't he doesn't respect them.

  Is the West, is NATO being bold enough right now?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Well, I think, next week, there's apparently going to be a summit of NATO leaders.

  And I'm sure that it's one of the things that they are going to be discussing. And I think we need to discuss that, because this is — this is probably the challenge of our lifetimes, how to manage this problem in a way — in a way that gets us through that narrow lane of not pushing Putin over the edge, but also coming out in a place where that — where the Ukrainians are in a good place, as well as the rest of the West.

  So, I do believe that the history has shown us, in Georgia 2008, the invasion there, Ukraine 2014, where we expressed criticism. In 2014, we also put on a few sanctions, but it obviously wasn't enough, because, 2022, he's trying again.

  And so it's my belief that, if he gets away with it again, he's going to keep on going.

• Judy Woodruff:

  On your book, there's — it's the story of your life, your journey in the Foreign Service, serving overseas representing the United States.

  But when it came to the debacle over what happened in Ukraine under former President Trump, his pushing you out of your job, in retrospect, did that send a signal of some kind, do you think, to Vladimir Putin about the United States?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  I think that it may have indicated to those who were watching, and perhaps Putin was one of them, that this was an administration that was about things other than our own national security interests.

  It was — really later on, I think the transcript revealed and the whistle-blower complaint revealed that this was an administration, this was a president that was trading on his office for his own personal and political gain. And that signals to Putin and to other bad actors around the world that you can make a deal, right, because if you somehow help the president, then you can go off and do your own thing.

  And I think Putin during the Trump years, although the official U.S. policy was very strong, during the Trump years, I think what Putin saw is that he was getting exactly what he needed. To the extent that the president thought about Ukraine, he kind of dismissed it as a weak pawn.

  And I think the other thing is that, with regard to NATO, the president's views were well-known. And many of his senior advisers have said that he probably would have pulled the country, the U.S., out of NATO had he won a second term. That would have probably spelled the demise of NATO.

• Judy Woodruff:

  You're very candid in the book, Marie Yovanovitch, to speak about how tough this whole public episode was on you personally.

  You lost her mother in the middle of all that.

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Yes.

• Judy Woodruff:

  You had to go through her being in the hospital and then her passing.

  What do you think you take away from this whole experience? It's now been almost two years. Where do you come out?

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Well, I mean, I will tell you candidly that was the worst period of my life, bar none, both personally and professionally. I mean, just — it was terrible.

  And it was — it's still hard for me to talk about actually publicly. But it — I think what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, as they say. And I had friends and family that were so supportive and kind of got me through that period.

  And then I had the opportunity to write this book. And that was kind of a therapy all of its own. I mean, it was tough to write the book, because I looked at my whole life. And some of the periods that are described in that book were obviously very painful personally.

  And so you have to try to make sense of it. But it was an opportunity as well. And so, fast-forward to today, I'm so fortunate that I have a book that's come out that hopefully helps me tell the American people through my life story about the importance of diplomacy, the importance of our democracy, and how the two of them are intertwined.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Marie Yovanovitch, "Lessons From the Edge."

  Ambassador Yovanovitch, thank you very much for talking with us.

• Marie Yovanovitch:

  Thank you. Thank you.