IRS whistleblowers claim Justice Department meddled in Hunter Biden investigation

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• Geoff Bennett:

  A pair of IRS whistle-blowers testified today before the House Oversight Committee about alleged meddling in the Justice Department investigation of Hunter Biden.

  You will recall that Hunter Biden reached an agreement to plead guilty to two federal misdemeanor counts of failing to pay his taxes. He also agreed to abide by a set of conditions to avoid a separate felony gun possession charge.

  The whistle-blowers say those charges and this case are out of line with the norm. Democrats dispute that.

  Lisa Desjardins was in the hearing room today and joins us now from Capitol Hill.

  So, Lisa, what did these whistle-blowers allege were the problems with the investigation?

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Geoff, this was a long and, for the most part, substantive and serious hearing from both sides. These were not just any IRS agents.

  These were two IRS investigators who were the chief two investigators in the Hunter Biden case. They gave a list of things that they said were out of the norm, unprecedented obstacles and changes in the way that this case worked.

  Among a few of those things that they listed, first, at the top, they said that they were not allowed to search Joe Biden's home where Hunter Biden was living, that they were blocked from interviewing Biden grandchildren, who may have been able to give testimony about Hunter Biden's tax returns, that they were prominently not — they did not see the felony tax charges that they recommended and which they said other prosecutors early in the case also agreed with.

  And they also said they saw outside limits on David Weiss. He is the U.S. attorney in Delaware who is overseeing the prosecution and this plea deal in the Hunter Biden case. One of these two IRS whistle-blowers, Joseph Ziegler, this was his first time talking in public today.

  He said he is a gay Democrat. He said this is not political, but that he did, in fact, see signs that there was something stifling that prosecutor.

• Joseph Ziegler, IRS Whistle-Blower:

  It appeared to me, based on what I experienced, that the U.S. attorney in Delaware in our investigation was constantly hamstrung, limited, and marginalized by DOJ officials, as well as other U.S. attorneys.

  I still think that a special counsel is necessary for this investigation.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  There's no reason to believe there will be a special counsel in this.

  Ziegler said that, throughout the investigation, they became scared to ask questions that they thought would lead to the Biden family or Joe Biden or his campaign.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Lisa, White House officials point out that there are often disputes, internal disputes, between investigators and prosecutors.

  And a White House spokesperson today said that House Republicans, as I look at my notes here, were — quote — "staging partisan stunts to try to damage President Biden politically."

  How did Democrats on the committee see it?

• Lisa Desjardins:

  That's right.

  Democrats see this completely differently. One thing that was unique in this hearing. Democrats did not question the credibility of these witnesses. They said these are career professionals, but they said they think they got some things wrong, that, essentially, these were investigators versus prosecutors.

  And there's often a difference of opinion in how a case should be charged. Now, they pointed specifically to a letter from the U.S. attorney in this case, David Weiss, that came out in the last few weeks, where Weiss was very clear, saying: I followed the process and I was never the authority to bring charges in any jurisdiction.

  The whistle-blowers are saying that he told them otherwise. So there is a difference here over what he said. But, right now, that prosecutor says: No, I was never denied any authority that I needed.

  Now, some other points that they make, they say that these plea deals often indicate charges that are graded down from the ideal prosecutor charges because Hunter Biden has pleaded guilty. They also said Joe Biden was neither president nor vice president for some of this investigation.

  Now, Jamie Raskin, the head Democrat on this committee, said, overall, while Hunter Biden has admitted to doing wrong, and there is a lot to say about Hunter Biden, but nothing Republicans have shown has led anywhere near Joe Biden.

• Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD):

  One thing you will not hear today is any evidence of wrongdoing by President Joe Biden or his administration.

  Like every other try by our colleagues to concoct a scandal about President Biden, this one is a complete and total bust.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Democrats also point out that prosecutor is a Trump appointee.

• Geoff Bennett:

  So, Lisa, based on your reporting, where does this head next?

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Lots to say.

  There will be more hearings. We will see more reports from Republicans, especially on the House side. We also should be on the watch, because Republicans now are trying to tie this to the attorney general in this case, his past testimony about how this was handled.

  I asked Speaker McCarthy about this today, and he brought up the attorney general saying perhaps this will lead down the road of questions strong enough to even impeach him. He's not going there yet, but he's raising that idea.

  One last thing, Geoff. Hunter Biden himself, that plea deal, the hearing, the next hearing in that case is next week. The judge, of course, has to approve that deal for it to go through.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Lisa Desjardins.

  Lisa, thanks, as always.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  You're welcome.