Michael Flynn’s guilty plea offers hints about direction of Mueller’s Russia probe

Judy Woodruff:

Now, again, our lead story- former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn's guilty plea, and what it does and doesn't mean for President Trump.

I'm joined by NPR's justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, and John Carlin. He ran the Justice Department's National Security Division from 2013 to 2016. Before that, he served as chief of staff and senior counsel to then-FBI Director Robert Mueller.

And we welcome both of you back to the program.

Carrie, I'm going to start with you.

So, we're hearing, we're told Michael Flynn has pleaded guilty on this one significant charge, but we're not told why he did it. What do we know?

Carrie Johnson:

There is so much more that investigators for the special counsel were probing with respect to Michael Flynn and his son, who was his business associate, ranging from allegations that he violated the Foreign Agents Registration Act through some of his business dealings in Turkey and Russia.

But he pleaded guilty to just one false statements charge. And prosecutors say he could wind up spending between zero and six months in prison. Judy, the feeling is that he has delivered something to the special counsel it didn't have before with respect to this investigation, and that's why he's getting a lenient deal.

Judy Woodruff:

So, the information that was released said that there was a senior official inside the Trump transition who directed him to make these contacts with Russian officials, what is known about who that — these individuals or that individual was?

Carrie Johnson:

Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI in a January 2017 interview, and he lied to the FBI about two things, one, about his contacts with the Russian ambassador during the transition about U.S. sanctions on Russia.

And, two, he lied about contacts with the Russian ambassador at the time, Sergey Kislyak, with respect to a U.N. Security Council resolution involving Israeli settlements. The plea documents talk about a senior official in the transition and a very senior official in the transition, but prosecutors have not identified those people.

What we know from the White House is that all eyes right now are on Jared Kushner. People close to Kushner and people close to the White House say Kushner didn't direct Flynn to do anything. With respect to the Israeli settlements, that was a collaborative effort. A lot of people were involved, including Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus.

Judy Woodruff:

Jared Kushner, of course, being the president son-in-law, married to the president's daughter.

John Carlin, as Carrie mentioned, it is the case that Michael Flynn was in some legal jeopardy on a number — on several things. It was not just the lying to the FBI. So what does it say that this is the deal that was worked out?

John Carlin:

And before we think about where we're going, we should think about where we are.

At this point, we have now had the now-president's former campaign manager be charged with serious felonies, including accepting tens of millions of dollars from Russian interests and lying about it while he was involved with the campaign.

Judy Woodruff:

That's Paul Manafort.

John Carlin:

That's Paul Manafort.

We have had George Papadopoulos, an official identified by then candidate President Trump as one of his key advisers on national security matters, plead guilty about lying about contacts with Russian interests.

And now we have the actual sitting national security adviser of the United States at that time lying to the FBI while in that position about secret conversations that he was having with the Russian ambassador. This is historic.

If you look ahead, I think Carrie makes a good point in terms of what's in the charges. There is another part of the charge that is not getting as much attention today, but he also pled guilty to making false statements about relationships with the Turkish government linked to the Foreign Agents Registration Act, the FARA.

And that shows you that there was probably more culpable contact that could have been charged. Under our guidelines as prosecutors, we're not supposed to charge someone to a less serious charge unless we think they can provide information, cooperation that's going to lead to someone more culpable, where the interests of the United States will be vindicated.

So, that indicates he's providing valuable cooperation and there's more to come.

Judy Woodruff:

But we don't have a hint yet at this point what that is, right?

John Carlin:

No, we don't.

And, usually, when you do these documents, you know what's going to be public when you're in an active investigation. And there may be parts that they're deliberately keeping now from the public eye, so as not to interfere with their ongoing investigation.

Judy Woodruff:

What do you know about that piece of it, Carrie?

Carrie Johnson:

Well, it should be noted that the White House has been trying to wrap up this investigation. They have scheduled a barrage of interviews for current White House officials with the special counsel team.

And we know that last month, in November, Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law and a White House adviser, did meet with special counsel investigators. The question now is what he told special counsel investigators then, and how that conflicts, or whether there are any inconsistencies with what they have accepted from Mike Flynn and other witnesses in the investigation.

Judy Woodruff:

John Carlin, can you read into this?

And, again, there was more material that was released today that we don't have time to go into right now. But there is more — and you get a larger sense of what it is that the special counsel, Robert Mueller, is trying to put together here.

John Carlin:

And if you think back, one of the most significant events that has occurred was the director of the FBI at the time, Director Comey, testifying that he had had a conversation with the president of the United States where the attorney general and other officials were ordered out of the room, and in that conversation in the Oval Office that the president had told him essentially to see if he could let this thing with Flynn go.

And one of the questions you're asking yourself as a prosecutor is, did he do it with corrupt intent? And then, later, when he fires Director Comey, is it because he wants to — for corrupt intent, in other words, to protect himself and those around him, to stop this investigation?

And it sure looks, with today's — this is another piece in that puzzle. We now have — it's no longer an allegation. He's pled guilty to a felony, that same person that the president was trying to protect.

Judy Woodruff:

And, Carrie, I want to come back to what the White House is saying.

They are saying repeatedly today, well, this is one isolated plea, it only involves Michael Flynn, it doesn't touch anybody else in the White House.

Carrie Johnson:

Yes, the White House lawyer, Ty Cobb, also said that Mike Flynn was an Obama administration official.

What Ty Cobb didn't say was that Mike Flynn was fired by the Obama administration and Mike Flynn served for 25 days in the Trump White House as its national security adviser.

Judy Woodruff:

And was a longtime campaign adviser.

Carrie Johnson:

And a longtime campaign adviser to Donald Trump.

I think that the White House is downplaying the effects of today's plea and that it's not a good day for people in the White House and people who worked on the transition team, for sure.

Judy Woodruff:

So, John Carlin, for those of us who are following all this, what do we look for next?

I know that it's clear Robert Mueller has been playing his cards close to the vest. None of us knew — that I know of — knew this was coming this morning, until it was announced that he was going to the courthouse to plea.

John Carlin:

And that's classic for a by-the-book — when he was director of the FBI, and I worked with him, and throughout his career as a prosecutor, when he talks, it is going to be through formal charging documents.

But these charging documents do tell a story. And for those who are involved in this investigation, I think they send a clear message that if you come in and you cooperate, we have seen now two individuals get severely reduced charges to what they might otherwise be facing with their cooperation, and for the individuals who didn't come in to cooperate, they're facing a very serious set of charges in an indictment.

Judy Woodruff:

Just quickly, Carrie, you said not a good day for the White House. How are they taking it overall?

Carrie Johnson:

The White House had a Christmas party today for reporters. It was off the record. The mood was subdued.

And, in fact, the atmosphere right now is one of uncertainty for the very reason you mentioned, Judy. Nobody knows what might happen next.

Judy Woodruff:

Carrie Johnson with NPR, John Carlin, thank you both.

Carrie Johnson:

Thank you.

John Carlin:

Thank you, Judy.