Who is responsible when a ship is abandoned at sea?

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• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  For more on this, I'm joined by Daryl Grisgraber of Refugees International. She has interviewed migrants who have made this dangerous journey.

  So, why is it that they're abandoning these migrants in the ships on the middle of these dangerous routes?

• DARYL GRISGRABER, Refugees International:

  It's an easy way to make money, frankly.

  People can be charged for the smuggling rates. You get on the ship, you can take them out into the water. And then, instead of having to risk getting them all the way to shore or being caught by a coast guard and being prosecuted, you can just leave and have the ship there. And whatever happens happens, right, because of the idea that these people are victims and civilians, and so maybe things won't be so bad for them.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  All right, so and you said paid. How much are people paying to get on these ships?

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  It depends where you're going from, but we have heard anywhere between 2,000 and 5,000 U.S. dollars, depending on the length of the trip.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  And that's a lot money in that part of the world.

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  It's quite a lot of money, yes.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  And what is the driver or what are the key drivers of — what's forcing these people to find a better life?

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Yes.

  Originally, in the country that they're coming from, take Syria, for example, there's a conflict, right? People are leaving that. Many Syrians have gone to Egypt as another good example, and this was where I spoke to a lot of people. And in Egypt, they don't get adequate services, they can't find jobs, they don't see any future for themselves there.

  And they feel like their only hope is to move on. And Europe, of course, as you might guess, is the place where everyone wants to go. So it's really desperation driving people.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  And what do we know about the smugglers? Who's behind this?

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Well, it depends on where they're coming from.

  But there are large international networks of smugglers all across the northern coast of Africa and they are well-connected internationally and well-connected between the countries on the African — the North African coast as well. And they also involve a lot of local people. Sometimes, local fishermen are involved in smuggling. They help load the boats.

  There are people on the ground who collect the migrants, take them from the bus from a big city to the coast. So there's really a huge number of people involved and they're extremely well-organized.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  All right. So, there's an infrastructure here. It seems shocking that there's that much of a profit to be made that you could also just abandon an entire ship. Ships are worth something.

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Yes, that's true, but, lately, what's been happening is, they're using much larger ships, so you can put a lot more money on — a lot more people on it, right?

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Kind of more bang for your buck, right. And a lot of the ships are used and not precisely seaworthy. And so you can get them quite cheap. It's apparently cheaper to buy one than it would be — or someone will make a profit by selling it, rather than sending it to, like, Southeast Asia for scrap or something like that. And so people can buy them, load them up with migrants, and then just kind of push them off.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  And what about the Italian response? They're seeing this flood of migrants one boat after another.

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Yes.

  Well, there are responsibilities of a receiving country, yes. And, granted, the maritime laws are a bit different than when people are actually on land. But Italy suspended its search-and-rescue program a couple of months ago now because — they said it was because of finances they couldn't do it anymore, a bit about manpower as well.

  And so there really needs to be much larger regional cooperation that is helping rescue people at sea, but also deterring a lot of the boats from leaving in the first place.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  And what about the E.U. overall?

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Same thing. They need to be putting their resources into this because that is — it's their border as a whole as well, yes.

  Britain recently withdrew its support for some search-and-rescue operations in the Mediterranean as well because they were afraid that it encouraged people to come to Europe actually if they were being rescued at sea. But there's much wider problem going on here. And, internationally, there needs to be cooperation.

• HARI SREENIVASAN:

  All right, Daryl Grisgraber, thanks so much for joining us.

• DARYL GRISGRABER:

  Thank you.