The charges Trump may face in potential special counsel indictment

Read the Full Transcript

• William Brangham:

  Former President Donald Trump's legal team met today with federal prosecutors, as a grand jury continues to hear evidence about Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. It comes days after Trump revealed he received a letter from the Department of Justice notifying him that he was a target of a criminal probe into the aftermath of that election and the January 6 Capitol riot.

  Joining us now is NPR's justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, who has been following all of today's developments.

  Carrie, so nice to see you again.

  So, Trump's legal team met with the DOJ today. Not unusual for that type of meeting to occur. Trump even referred to it as a — quote — "productive meeting" in a post on his social media site, TRUTH Social.

  Do we know what was discussed today at that meeting?

• Carrie Johnson, NPR:

  The special counsel's office, the special counsel, Jack Smith, is not talking.

  What we know comes from Donald Trump, who, as you said, posted that his lawyers met with the special counsel team today, presumably in an effort to stave off an indictment related to the January 6 investigation.

  Trump also said that he did nothing wrong, that he relied on advice from his lawyers, and it would be bad for the country, it would further destroy the country, Trump said, for him to get indicted all over again.

  But, William, this is a bit of a reprise. We saw the same pattern happen before Trump was indicted for the Mar-a-Lago documents manner about a month ago or more. And so that meeting between Trump and the special counsel and people at the Justice Department happened just a few days before that indictment actually came down.

• William Brangham:

  I mean, the receipt of a target letter almost always follows an indictment.

  And there was a good deal of speculation that that might happen today. Do we have any sense as to when that might happen, if that might happen still?

• Carrie Johnson:

  I wish I could tell you.

  I was one of about two dozen reporters and producers haunting the courthouse all day today. We have been there really all week waiting. We do know the January 6 grand jury was meeting today. We observed them coming in and leaving the building shortly before 5:00 p.m. or so, but no action out of the grand jury today.

  Their typical days of meeting in the week are Tuesday and Thursday. But, of course, they may have done something in secret that we won't find out about until later, or the prosecutors may decide to bring them back next week. It's just not clear at this point.

  It does seem clear something is going to happen. The exact timing is uncertain right now.

• William Brangham:

  The target letter that the former president received reportedly contained three federal statutes that he is allegedly being charged with.

  Two of those were somewhat sort of predicted charges. One was conspiracy to defraud the government, another obstruction of an official proceeding. But the third charge struck many former federal prosecutors a bit by surprise. Could you tell us about that particular charge?

• Carrie Johnson:

  Sure, with the caveat that some of the charges that were included in the Mar-a-Lago indictment did not come out in advance.

  In other words, most of the information, William, we're getting is coming from the defense team, and they're not always interested in telling us exactly what's about to happen, or maybe wanting to shape things in the best interest of their client.

  But, as far as we know from Trump's lawyers, this third charge dates back to the Reconstruction era, the post-civil rights era, in which it was used to try to protect the rights of Black voters who were trying to get to the polls and facing real threats of violence and actual violence for doing so.

  We do know that Justice Department has used this charge relatively recently in another case that involve voting in the 2016 election. But it's relatively rare, although not completely unheard of. It seems to involve trying to do — take some illegal action that would deprive people of certain constitutional rights.

  In this case, we think it's voting. But let's wait and see to be absolutely sure.

• William Brangham:

  Two of those three charges — and, again, I appreciate all of your caveats about what ends up in a target letter may not actually end up in the indictment.

  But two of those charges do contain a conspiracy involved. And as far as we know, Donald Trump, the former president, is the only one that is publicly said: I'm a target of this.

  So if there's a conspiracy, other people are involved. Do we have any idea who those others might be?

• Carrie Johnson:

  There are a lot of excellent guesses out there. It may be the Justice Department has secured cooperation from somebody in Trump's inner circle.

  We know Donald Trump has been worried about that for a long time, but it's not in the government's interest to disclose that until the last possible moment.

• William Brangham:

  Carrie Johnson of NPR, thank you, as always, for helping us wade through all of this.

• Carrie Johnson:

  Thank you.