U.S. and Germany sending tanks to Ukraine for fight against Russian invasion

Amna Nawaz:

Welcome to the "NewsHour."

For the first time today, the U.S. announced it will send American tanks to Ukraine as part of a coordinated announcement with Germany, which will also send its tanks.

Geoff Bennett:

It's a shift in U.S. policy and one of the most significant weapons upgrades that Ukraine has been asking for.

Nick Schifrin starts our coverage.

Nick Schifrin:

Ukraine calls them the critical weapon systems to recapture its own territory, Western tanks. And, today, the U.S. pledged 31 M1 Abrams tanks, tanks and Germany approved the export of nearly 100 Leopard 2 tanks.

President Biden at the White House:

Joe Biden, President of the United States: Ukrainians are fighting an age-old battle against aggression and domination. It's a battle Americans have fought proudly time and again. And it's a battle we're going to make sure the Ukrainians are well-equipped to fight as well.

Nick Schifrin:

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Berlin:

Olaf Scholz, German Chancellor (through translator):

There really is a war going on in Europe not far away from here. That's why we do what is necessary and possible to support Ukraine, but, at the same time, avoid an escalation between Russia and NATO.

Nick Schifrin:

Germany's announcement allows a half-dozen European countries to send their German-made Leopard tanks. The goal is to create two battalions for a few thousand Ukrainian soldiers in the next two to three months.

It will be a major upgrade to Ukraine's mostly Soviet era armor that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy today called a historical achievement.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Ukrainian President (through translator):

We have to form a fist of tanks, a fist of freedom, which will not allow tyranny to rise again.

Nick Schifrin:

Germany's announcement mends a European rift exposed by Poland and others' anger over Germany's prior resistance.

Mateusz Morawiecki, Polish Prime Minister (through translator):

The Germans are defending themselves against this like a devil protects himself against holy water.

Nick Schifrin:

German officials said they were waiting to send a new capacity to Ukraine until the U.S. took the step with them.

Olaf Scholz (through translator):

It is right that we didn't let ourselves be driven, and that we instead counted and will continue to count on close cooperation for such an issue.

Heather Conley, Former State Department Official:

It's been very clear that the German government does not want to take a major step that they fear may be a cause of escalating the war without the United States.

Nick Schifrin:

Heather Conley is the president of the German Marshall Fund. She says German fears of escalation and the legacy of German Nazi tanks overrunning European cities during World War II led Berlin to hesitate.

Heather Conley:

This is a historically difficult moment for the Germans to be sending tanks back into that theater. Again, they feel stronger and more capable when the U.S. is standing right beside them as they take that step.

Nick Schifrin:

The U.S. took the step with them, even though it had called the Abrams tank unsustainable for Ukraine as recently as Friday on the "NewsHour."

Colin Kahl, U.S. Undersecretary of Defense for Policy: The challenge with the Abrams is, it's expensive. It's difficult to train on. It's very difficult to sustain. It has a huge, complicated turbine engine that requires jet fuel.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges (Ret.), U.S. Army: None of these excuses were compelling, and that's what they were.

Nick Schifrin:

Retired General Ben Hodges is the former commander of the U.S. Army in Europe. He argues the time frame announced today to deliver Abrams in months, perhaps a year, isn't fast enough.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges:

I'm disappointed because the way — the amount of time it took to get to this decision, and then the way that the decision is going to be implemented does not convey a sense of urgency that the administration's wants Ukraine to win anytime soon.

Nick Schifrin:

Did it have a choice? Could the U.S. have gone faster?

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges:

Of course. We always have a choice. But if you want me to win, I'm going to take the closest tanks I have got, which is a brigade's worth of M1s that are in storage here in — on the ground in Europe.

Nick Schifrin:

That's nearly 90 tanks that Hodges says could be deployed within weeks.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges:

Get Ukrainian troops on those Abrams tanks that are parked in Europe right now. Let them train the gunnery, practice the tactics, and then put them on trains and send them to the front.

Nick Schifrin:

That front may prove Ukraine's biggest challenge yet. In the last four months, Ukraine has recaptured some territory in the east and in the south.

But east of the Dnipro River, Russian forces have been digging in. Recapturing that occupied territory will require a lot of firepower. That's why the U.S. and European priority is the Leopards.

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges:

They could play a key role if they get there in the next two or three months.

Nick Schifrin:

This evening, President Zelenskyy also said the key now is speed and volume, how quickly and how many tanks can be supplied to Ukraine.

To discuss all this, I'm joined by John Kirby, the coordinator for strategic communications for the National Security Council.

John Kirby, welcome back to the "NewsHour."

Why have the Defense Department procure Abrams tanks, a process that can take months, rather than, as you heard General Hodges say, have Abrams tanks that are already in Europe sent to Ukraine, a process that could have taken weeks?

John Kirby, NSC Coordinator For Strategic Communications:

Well, the Pentagon took a look at this.

And they — and they said as much this morning, that there are no excess tanks in the U.S. inventory, and that, even if there were, to provide them under drawdown authority, in other words, just take them off the — off the tarmac and move them in there, would still require months of preparation to get them ready to go into Ukraine and things that they would need to do to the tanks themselves, not to mention the training that needs to happen for the Ukrainian soldiers.

There's also an important component here. And the sound bite you played by Colin Kahl kind of got at this. I mean, these are very capable, sophisticated systems. There's a supply chain issue. We got to make sure that the parts and supplies, that we have got in place a system so that maintainers, Ukraine maintainers, can fix these things in a battlefield environment swiftly and efficiently.

So there's a lot that goes into this. But they looked at this. And, frankly, procuring new tanks is really not going to make much of a difference in the time frame than if they were to try to draw them off of stocks. And, again, they didn't find any excess in the stocks.

Nick Schifrin:

You mentioned Colin Kahl. He is the top Defense Department policy official. I had him on the show just a few days ago explaining why the Abrams tank is unsustainable to Ukraine.

So what changed between Friday and today to make the tank more sustainable?

John Kirby:

Nothing's changed to make the tanks more sustainable. I mean, the challenges that Dr. Kahl put forward are still there.

We have been very open and honest about how sophisticated this system is, this tank is, and how hard it's going to be for any military to operate and maintain it. I mean, and there are foreign militaries that use Abrams tanks. And it's just — it's just that sophisticated a system. We have been very honest about that.

And, look, tanks have never been off the table, Nick. We have been discussing tanks with the Ukrainians. We have been discussing them with our allies and partners for many months now. What's different now, to ask what's changed, the big change is what the conditions are on the battlefield, and, more particularly, the kinds of conditions we think the Ukrainians and they think they're going to be facing in coming months, as the weather turns better, as spring comes, and as we can all assume that the Russians are going to try to regain some sort of sense of momentum.

Nick Schifrin:

But, as you know, those concerns existed just a few days ago, when we heard administration officials say the tank was unsustainable.

It sounds like, given that you believe there are still the same concerns that you have been talking about for days, did the president authorize these tanks explicitly so that Germany would authorize its Leopards?

John Kirby:

We moved in lockstep with Germany. This was a coordinated announcement — I think that's pretty obvious — today.

And we're grateful for that. We're grateful for Germany's contributions. This was also the result of weeks of discussions with the Germans about this particular capability and other armored capabilities. Again, this is all about making sure that Ukrainians have what they need, the tools they need to conduct effective combined arms maneuver operations, the kind of operations we think they're going to be conducting in the spring and summer months.

Tanks are a part of that. So this was done certainly in close coordination with the Germans.

Nick Schifrin:

You say Ukraine — give Ukraine what it needs. But Ukraine says it needs 300 tanks. Between the Abrams that we're talking about and the Leopards, we're talking, give or take, about 100 tanks. So why not give more?

John Kirby:

I'm sorry. I missed that last question.

Nick Schifrin:

So you said that Ukraine has stated what it needs. You're trying to get Ukraine what it needs.

John Kirby:

Yes.

Nick Schifrin:

Ukraine says it needs 300 tanks. Between the M1s that you're talking about and the Leopards, we're only talking about 100 or so tanks.

John Kirby:

Right.

Nick Schifrin:

So you're not giving them what they need, even after today's announcements?

John Kirby:

Well, that's our focus right now is this 31 Abrams that — that, again, will take many months to get into Ukraine. And, of course, the Germans have committed to helping fit out two more tank battalions. So that's about another 60 tanks.

You're right. That gets you up to around 90. But look, we're just — we will keep at this. We will keep talking to the Ukrainians. I don't want to get ahead of announcements that haven't been made yet. But we know they have real needs. We're working in lockstep with them and in real time with them, as you just saw last week in Ramstein, to continue to provide them the capabilities that they need.

Nick Schifrin:

Before Chancellor Scholz's announcement today, some German officials had raised the concern about giving tanks would lead to Russian escalation.

Why do you think giving U.S. and European tanks will not lead to Russian escalation?

John Kirby:

We're always concerned about the possibility for escalation of this conflict.

I think we can all agree that having this war escalate, and certainly to become something like Putin claims it is, the U.S. vs. Russia, the West vs. Russia, that's not good for the Russian people. It's not good for our national security interest, and it's certainly not good for Ukraine and for the Ukrainian people.

So, we have obviously been mindful of escalation management since the very beginning of this war. And with every system we provide, we factor that calculus into that. And the tank — the tanks are no different than that.

Now, look, as the president said — and he was very clear today — these tanks represent no offensive threat to Russia, to the Russian homeland.

They do, however, present a threat to Russian forces that are illegally in Ukraine, and they ought to take note of that. But there's no threat, there's no offensive threat to the Russian homeland. And so there would be no reason for the Russians to overreact by — about this.

Nick Schifrin:

You heard me report that the goal here to get — is to get the Leopards into Ukraine in the next two to three months.

They have to be trained. They have to actually create these battalions of various different tanks. Do you think it's realistic that Germany and the other European countries can pull that off in two to three months?

John Kirby:

Yes, in short, we do.

We have been in close contact with the — obviously, the Germans and other nations that have Leopard tanks. And we're confident. Again, I don't want to get ahead of them and their planning timelines. But we're confident that they will be able to field and get into Ukraine Leopard tanks certainly at a faster rate than we're going to be able to get the Abrams there.

And these Leopard tanks are very good. They're very capable as well. There's a lot of them on the European continent. And they can — they can have a more near-term impact, clearly.

Nick Schifrin:

And, quickly, John Kirby, I have only got less than a minute left.

This week, Zelenskyy announced his first major anti-corruption shakeup. Deputy chief of staff, multiple deputy ministers, regional prosecutors are all out of a job. The U.S. has said that there's no evidence that this money was part of what the U.S. has given. But does this concern you that corruption that has historically existed in Ukraine still exists?

John Kirby:

Certainly, we take these allegations of corruption and these claims of corruption seriously.

And we're glad to see that President Zelenskyy does too. We're not surprised by that, that he's taken action. We are — as you said, we don't have any indication that any of our assistance, financial or security, otherwise, has been involved in this or wrapped up in this.

And that's why we are continuing to work closely with the Ukrainians on issues of accountability, particularly over the weapon systems that we provide Ukraine. We're beefing up our capability at the embassy in Kyiv to do exactly that, to monitor and to do the best we can to — so that we can provide appropriate oversight and accountability of all the systems that were providing Ukraine.

Nick Schifrin:

John Kirby, thank you very much.

John Kirby:

You bet.