Woodward and Bernstein reflect on the parallels between Watergate and the Capitol attack

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• Judy Woodruff:

  Next week marks the 50th anniversary of the break-in at Democratic national party headquarters here in Washington.

  That event in 1972 would eventually trigger congressional hearings and bring down a U.S. president.

  The two reporters at the heart of uncovering what came to be known as the Watergate scandal have reissued their book "All the President's Men" this week, with a new foreword drawing parallels to the actions of former President Trump.

  On the eve of the first public hearings on January 6, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein join us now.

  And we welcome both of you back to the "NewsHour," Carl and Bob.

  Bob Woodward, Co-Author, "All the President's Men": Thank you.

• Judy Woodruff:

  And, Bob, I want to start with you.

  Carl Bernstein, Co-Author, "All the President's Men": Good to be with you.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Over the years — thank you both — there have been many narratives about what Watergate was about.

  It has been called all about a third-rate burglary, that the cover-up was worse than the crime. You have had plenty of time to reflect on it. What was it about?

• Bob Woodward:

  Well, it was really an effort to destroy the process of nominating candidates for the Democratic Party, I mean, extraordinary.

  Nixon came along and said, gee, I'd like to run against this person, George McGovern. And he launched a covert campaign of espionage and sabotage and cover-up. And it worked. In the end, he got a weaker candidate, George McGovern, and he won 49 states.

  It was one of the great crimes of not just politics, but never seen anything like this, until recently.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Yes. And that's what I want to ask you about.

  As we think back, though, to President Nixon, Carl, one of the just enduring memories was from the Senate hearings, the late Senator Sam Ervin, and in one of those hearings, that famous moment when we heard the actual audio recording from inside the White House.

  Would Richard Nixon have been brought down if that hadn't happened?

• Carl Bernstein:

  It was the so-called smoking gun tape.

  It's very possible he would not have been brought down. We don't know. It's if history. But it's very important to understand the progression from Richard Nixon's criminality to Donald Trump's criminality. They are both criminal presidents of the United States.

  But then Trump went further. He is the first seditious president in our history. How did that happen? He decided he would not abide by the election, the duly constituted, free election of Joe Biden as the president of the United States, and staged a coup to keep Biden from taking office.

  The law calls for the election of the president of the United States to take place at 1:00 p.m. on January 6. And there was a great effort, a conspiracy extending to the president, to keep that 1:00 p.m. appointment from happening. And the object of all of this, including the demonstrations and breaking into the Capitol of the United States by the insurrectionists, was to keep this election of the president from happening, so Trump could stay in office, and Biden could not.

  But the idea of the president of the United States trying to stage a coup such as this is extraordinary, insidious, and we have never seen anything like it in our history.

• Judy Woodruff:

  And never seen anything like it.

  And yet, Bob, the two of you write in this new forward about the parallels between the two. You write they were both insecure, you say paranoid. You say each view of the world through the prism of hate.

• Bob Woodward:

  Yes.

  I mean, there's so much hate in the politics of Nixon and of Trump. But what really struck us, when you look at all of this, Trump is staking his claim now that the election was stolen. Well, he lost. He did not win. And Carl and I and Bob Costa, who I worked with on "Peril," spent a lot of time looking for evidence to suggest or show that this was — the 2020 election was fraudulent and stolen.

  There is zero evidence. It just doesn't pass the commonsense test. But I agree with Carl. It really was sedition, sedition, action by Trump trying to overturn it. And he failed.

• Judy Woodruff:

  I mean, that…

• Bob Woodward:

  Now maybe he will run again.

  (LAUGHTER)

• Judy Woodruff:

  I mean, that word stops us cold.

  Carl, you used it a minute ago. You said seditious. Bob just said sedition. I mean, that's — that is something that the two of you did not accuse Richard Nixon. This is something — this is a different level.

• Carl Bernstein:

  It certainly is, because Richard Nixon resigned.

  He went to the South Lawn, got on a helicopter, and went into private life. Donald Trump was trying to attempt to not leave the White House, to continue illegally as the president of the United States.

  I think there's another really important thing to look at and consider here, that what made Nixon go were courageous Republicans.

• Judy Woodruff:

  When it comes to Republicans, Bob, being willing to stand up to a president, there were a number who stood up to President Nixon. It's different today.

• Bob Woodward:

  Well, in the end, all the Republicans stood up against Nixon, and Goldwater carried that message.

  But what's going to happen tomorrow night in these prime-time hearings, is, I think, a seminal moment, political moment, a teaching moment for the country. And even people who support Trump really ought to look at it, because they have — they're making a case. And people may accept it or not, but they ought to listen.

  They may not like it, but it is critical that — what I know about what's going to happen tomorrow night, a lot of it's going to be visual. A lot of it's going to be seen…

• Judy Woodruff:

  Right.

• Bob Woodward:

  … the anger and the ugliness of breaking into the Capitol of the United — an unheard-of action, not by 10 people…

• Judy Woodruff:

  Right.

• Bob Woodward:

  … or 100, 1,000 people, astonishing moment.

  And people ought to be cool about it and ponder it and look at this data and look at the violence. I couldn't believe that — what was happening that day.

• Judy Woodruff:

  That's right.

• Bob Woodward:

  It was so out of the normal civility of American politics, the nonviolent tradition.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Well, we will see how many are watching. The country is much more divided politically even than it was back in the day — days of Richard Nixon.

  I think you already have answered this question. I'm going to finally ask the two of you, which of these two presidents posed a greater threat to our democracy?

  Carl Bernstein?

• Carl Bernstein:

  Trump, because he is willing to push things to the point where there can be no peaceful transfer of power, such as happens in the most authoritarian countries in the world. That goes farther than Richard Nixon.

• Bob Woodward:

  But I think the answer is Trump, because he's thinking of running.

  I actually think he is going to run. I think he is going to be recruited by lots of moneyed Republicans. And he's going to say, look, I have — the people are calling. I have got to run.

  And he's running again. And in the four years he held office, he learned, in a somewhat haphazard way, but he learned where the levers of power are. And if he gets that power, the power of the presidency, the extraordinary concentration of power, again, this country will never be the same.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Bob Woodward, Carl Bernstein, who broke the story of Watergate 50 years ago and who are here to watch what we're witnessing in 2022, thank you both.

• Bob Woodward:

  Thanks.

• Carl Bernstein:

  Thanks, Judy.