Capehart and Gerson on how immigration debate and abortion access will play into midterms

Judy Woodruff:

Migrants land in Martha's Vineyard and at the vice president's doorstep, inflation rebounds, and abortion divides Republicans on Capitol Hill. It's all part of a full week.

And it's why we are grateful to turn to the analysis of Capehart and Gerson. That is Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post, and his Post colleague opinion, columnist Michael Gerson. David Brooks is away.

Hello to both of you on this Friday evening.

Jonathan Capehart:

Hi, Judy.

Michael Gerson:

Good to be here.

Judy Woodruff:

Thank you for being here.

Let's start with the migrants situation.

Jonathan, we have two governors, the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, sending planeloads, busloads of migrants to Washington, D.C., and just in the last couple of days to Martha's Vineyard, this island part of Massachusetts. They say this is all about payback because the federal government, the Biden administration hasn't done anything about this. Others are saying it's a stunt. What is it?

Jonathan Capehart:

It's a stunt. They have been sending busloads and planeloads of migrants to not just Washington, D.C., and Martha's Vineyard, but also New York City, Chicago, and giving no notice.

I did an interview with Mayor Eric Adams for The Texas Tribune Festival, and I asked him, have you spoken to Governor Abbott? No. There's no coordination. No one's calling them.

And, as we know about what happened on Martha's Vineyard, they got a phone call 20 minutes before that the plane was going to land. Using human lives like this, these are people. Particularly the folks who landed on Martha's Vineyard, these are people who traveled from Venezuela, and I'm not talking about flying in on planes. They walked from there.

And then they get to — they get to Texas, and someone says to them, by the accounts, oh, are you looking for a job or you're looking for a home? Here, come this way, and put them on a plane to Martha's Vineyard.

The one saving grace in all of this, in these people being used this way, is that Martha's Vineyard is a — it is an island, a community that is known for its openness. And there's a sign that I have seen on the Vineyard since at least 2019-2020 that reads, "We respect women. We value Black lives. We stand with our LGBTQ community members. We stand with immigrants, with refugees with indigenous peoples," just saying to the folks who visit Martha's Vineyard that you are in a community that prizes diversity and prizes humanity.

And that's not what we have seen from Abbott or DeSantis.

Judy Woodruff:

Does this get us any closer, Michael, to some solution to all this?

Michael Gerson:

Goodness, no.

It's a big thing in MAGA world to own the libs. And that means essentially mocking them in ways that make them look bad. And this is a case where you had a governor in the United States trying to own the libs with human beings as his method. That, I think, is — these states were once known as laboratories of democracy, laboratories of policy ideas.

Now they're laboratories of progressively worse inhumanity.

Judy Woodruff:

You mean Texas and Florida?

Michael Gerson:

Texas and Florida and the like.

Judy Woodruff:

Yes.

Michael Gerson:

And so I — it indicates something disturbing about our — that much of our political system is — has become performative.

These are performances by politicians, not the pursuit of ideas or solutions or common ground. It's really, I'm going to send this message to try to hurt my enemies. And I'm going to do it in the most dramatic and — way possible.

And we have not even reached the bottom of it yet, I don't think.

Judy Woodruff:

Jonathan, I hear people all the time saying, why can't we do something in this country about immigration, about the issue?

But president after president, Republicans and Democrats, have not been able to do that. Why not?

Jonathan Capehart:

Because there doesn't seem to be a will to do it.

President — I'm old enough to remember President George W. Bush trying really hard to get an immigration reform bill done, and he gave up in 2007, when they couldn't get 14 votes to get cloture in the Senate. President Obama tried over and over and over again, while, at the same time, enforcing — deporting people, where he had people, allies of his, calling him deporter in chief.

He then started doing DACA, but they didn't do anything. And President Trump, well, we build a wall, putting babies in prisons. If Governor Abbott and Governor DeSantis were really serious about doing something about the border, they would be spending — they would be commuting to Washington, D.C., walking the halls of Congress, demanding a meeting with the president, and sitting down together to come up with a plan and force Congress to pass the plan.

But that's not what they're doing.

Judy Woodruff:

Do you see any way through this really hard issue?

Michael Gerson:

Well, the problem right now is that one of the essential elements of MAGA ideology is us vs. them.

And someone from an ethnicity like from Venezuela is an easy them, because they look different, they speak differently. The opposite here — these are many people who claim to be Christians in their political engagement. And one of the most basic principles of religious ethics is welcoming the stranger. I mean, how could this possibly be consistent with what we're seeing in Republican ideology right now?

But I'm afraid it's kind of baked into Trumpism. There always has to be an enemy. There always has to be a them. And that's — this is what they have chosen.

Judy Woodruff:

Another really tough issue that's come up this week, Jonathan, that is, we saw, in the Senate, Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, proposing what's almost a national ban, a national ban on abortion, 15 weeks' limit.

But it's interesting. Not — there were some Republican senators who were saying they — or indicating they couldn't go along with this. What is happening with the issue of abortion right now?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, I'm still trying to understand why Senator Graham did what he did, knowing what we know, how the American people feel about the issue of abortion.

If the Kansas vote from this summer wasn't a big indicator to Republicans that you need to tread lightly here, I don't know what is. And, instead, the senator proposes this — proposes this ban. The fact that Republicans on the Hill are walking away from him says nothing to me, because they're walking away from him because midterms are coming.

Will those same people be walking away from Senator Graham, after the midterms, when maybe they tried to do it in the lame-duck, or if the Republicans get the majority, will they be — still — will they still walk away from Senator Graham, or will they go with him?

And the other thing is, once you start at 15 weeks, once you start that debate, that's not the end of the debate. That's the beginning. What more are they going to want to do to try to have more control over bodily autonomy for women? Are they going to go after contraception? Are they going to go after other things that really strike at people's own personal liberty?

Judy Woodruff:

What do you think is behind what Senator Graham is doing? And what do you — how do you read the Republican reaction?

Michael Gerson:

Well, what he's doing is politically foolish. It complicates the lives of almost every one of his colleagues that's running.

But I think I know him well enough to that he believes this is actually a moderate Republican position. If you look at the number of abortions that take place in America, according to the CDC, about 92, 93 percent are before 13 weeks. What he is proposing, I think, which people don't quite realize, is, if you accept a 15-week, ban, you have allowed most abortions in America, well above 90 percent.

At other times in the history of the pro-life movement, people would have looked at this and said, this is total surrender. So, the bill itself is not extreme. And he actually makes exceptions for rape, incest and life for the mother.

Judy Woodruff:

But then why are some — why are a number of Republicans not signing on?

Michael Gerson:

Because I think, politically, they don't want to engage in the details of an issue they don't want to talk about.

This is a case where the polling is really bad when you look at, from the pro-life perspective, that people wanted to keep Roe v. Wade. But if you look at the polling about a 15-month (sic) ban, it's just about even in several polls in America, where's their support.

I think that Graham knows that and thinks this is the way it should be argued. But it's — it also is a political disaster for Republicans.

Jonathan Capehart:

You know, this whole thing feels like politics. I hear what you're saying, Michael, about this is actually — Republicans of yore would think that this bill is surrender.

But I watched part of that press conference, of Senator Graham's press conference, and there was a woman there who asked a question, a very personal question, about a complication with her own pregnancy, really horrible complications. She spoke from a human level, personal level.

And he answered her by dodging the question and relying on political talking points, going after Democrats. If you really care about this issue, then you need to talk to that — you need to talk to that woman. You need to address her concerns. And that's what Republicans aren't doing.

Judy Woodruff:

Another subject I want to bring up, and that is pretty bad news this week about inflation, about prices. This is an issue that clearly Democrats are worried about, Michael, Republicans, of course, beating that drum.

But from a pocketbook standpoint, what's going on right now? I mean, the economy, we're told, is strong, but prices are going up. What's behind all this?

Michael Gerson:

Well, I think that the president has actually had a pretty good couple of weeks, and when you look at it in total.

You have the inflation for gasoline and other products go down. You have had — there's some fairly bad news on inflation, but you still have unbelievably low unemployment in America. That's actually part of the problem, a tight labor market that increases inflation.

He — Biden is, to some extent, the least popular, most successful president I know of.

(LAUGHTER)

Michael Gerson:

But even the popularity has come up a few points in the last few weeks.

Judy Woodruff:

Yes.

Michael Gerson:

So I think he's looking to try to build on that success, create the appearance of competence and progress.

And it actually is working, to some extent. I think that, among independents, you see some movement, not Republicans, but…

Judy Woodruff:

How do you see this and what — the role inflation's playing in all this?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, in terms of this aura of competence, the president coming — getting that — averting the rail strike is something that…

Michael Gerson:

Was necessary, yes.

Jonathan Capehart:

… was necessary. But imagine if there had been a rail strike. The inflation would have — it would have complicated the story. It would have complicated inflation.

But I do think that inflation is a big — it's a big worry. It's a big worry for the administration, because we all — we know, as much as abortion is working well for Democrats politically, in terms of getting women registered to vote, we know, at the end of the day, people look at their pocketbooks.

And if prices are high, if gas start spiking up again, they look at their own personal economy.

Judy Woodruff:

And we saw in a poll that the "NewsHour" was part of this week that, even though the economists and the experts say we are not in a recession yet, it may be down the line, we don't know, a majority of Americans, a large majority of Americans, think we are already in a recession.

So, so much of it is the mind-set.

Jonathan Capehart:

Right. It's personal.

Judy Woodruff:

Jonathan Capehart, Michael Gerson, thank you both.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Judy.

Michael Gerson:

Sure. Thank you.