How the impeachment trial is being seen and heard across the country

Judy Woodruff:

And now we want to move away from Washington for a few minutes to get a sense of how the impeachment trial is being seen and heard across the country.

We turn to two political reporters who share what they are hearing, in Phoenix, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of The Arizona Republic, and, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, Tim Alberta of Politico.

Very good to have you both with us. We appreciate it.

Tim Alberta, I'm going to start with you. You have been talking to people.

Are they — I asked Senator Warner this. He said he didn't think his constituents were watching it that closely. But what are you hearing from Americans, from people you talk to?

Tim Alberta:

Judy, I think Senator Warner deserves credit for his candor, because he's right.

In my experience, there are not an awful lot of Americans paying attention to this. And, frankly, you can see why, because, if members of the U.S. Senate aren't going to take this terribly seriously, than why should the average American voter? Why should their constituents?

So, I agree with Senator Warner that, by and large — listen, the second impeachment trial is never going to be as compelling as the original, right? The sequel is never quite as good.

And all — in all seriousness, I think that you have a lot of Americans, regardless of whether they supported President Trump or opposed President Trump at the ballot box or over the last four years, they are simply not terribly interested in continuing to litigate his presidency, his Twitter feed, his behavior and rhetoric anymore.

I think a lot of folks are sort of welcoming this little bit of a down period now, Judy. And the idea of having to dive back into the news cycle for more arguments pro and con vis-a-vis Donald Trump is just not something that is terribly appetizing to a lot of folks.

Judy Woodruff:

Yvonne Sanchez, let me broaden it out a little bit for you.

How much, in your experience, people you talk to in Arizona, are they — have they been paying attention since the attack on the Capitol on January 6? Did that get a lot of attention? And have people been focused on it ever since, one way or the other?

Yvonne Wingett Sanchez:

So, here in Arizona, it felt as though there was maybe several-day window, maybe a week-long window where people really sort of seemed to be paying attention, and it sort of wore off.

People here are much more focused on the next COVID relief package, how they're going to pay their mortgages, getting their schools on their virtual classrooms, and making sure that they can have some sort of date that they can look forward to, to sending them back to school.

Hardly anyone, any sort of normal person who lives outside of the political bubble, is really talking even about the impeachment trial, particularly because it seems as though both of our senators, and Kyrsten Sinema and Mark Kelly, there seems to be little suspense about where they are going to go, and the Senate more broadly.

Judy Woodruff:

And to — that question, in part, to you, Tim Alberta.

Republicans you talk to in the state of Michigan, what are they saying about not just how their senators vote, but how Republicans in the House and the Senate are approaching the impeachment and conviction decisions on the former president?

Tim Alberta:

Well, Judy, the Michigan Republican Party just held its annual convention last weekend.

And I can tell you, having covered Republican politics for quite some time, and having done it at the grassroots level, as well as at the national level, there has never been more clarity in these Republican proceedings internally than there is now.

And the question is not one of ideology. It's not one of policy. It is not one of any specific tactical or strategic disagreement.

It is very broadly and very plainly, are you with Donald Trump still, or are you getting cold feet? Are you giving in to this pressure from the left, from the media, from some of these weak-kneed Republicans like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and Mitt Romney? Or are you holding the line and are you staying loyally behind this president, who did so much for you and so much for the party and so much for the country?

It's awfully black and white, Judy. I wish I could be more nuanced, but it is actually quite simple. And I do believe that, even if, over time, there is a sort of a slow movement away from Trump-style Republicanism, it's going to take awhile. And it's not going to happen in — with the sort of snatch of a finger that many Republicans were hoping for post-November 3 and certainly post January 6.

This idea that Donald Trump is just going to go away and that his support is going to diminish rapidly, it is just not — it's just not reality.

Judy Woodruff:

And I should have said that Michigan played a central role in the impeachment trial today. We have seen more video of the takeover of your Capitol in the state of Michigan, the reminders about the plot to kidnap the Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer.

But back to you, Yvonne Sanchez.

What about the Republicans in the state of Arizona? How are they talking about, what are they saying about what their expectations are of elected Republicans in Washington and President Trump?

Yvonne Wingett Sanchez:

Well, it depends on who you talk to.

I mean, just as Tim has described, the rift here within the Republican Party is deeper than it has ever been. And it has been deep for some time. This is the state Republican Party that censured former Senator John McCain. They doubled down on their tactic to go after those who were not completely with Trump just a few weeks ago, when they reelected Kelli Ward as their party chair.

She has been one of the most outspoken, loyal activists trying to help Trump spread his message, the stop the steal message. And we have Freedom Caucus members, Andy Biggs, Paul Gosar, two congressmen who also have been very active in the stop the steal movement.

And we have the McCain family and Governor Doug Ducey on the other side, very conservative, sort of traditional-style Republicans who are on the outs of their own party. And I don't know when this will — when this fever will break, but it seems as though it is going to get a lot deeper and a lot worse before it gets better.

Judy Woodruff:

I want to quickly ask both of you. We have got about 40 seconds left.

But what do you — how do you think this trial will affect President Trump's political strength, when all is said and done, Tim Alberta?

Tim Alberta:

You know, Judy, I will just tell you that the fear a lot of Republicans have is that Trump will be made into a martyr here and that, actually, in some backward, counterintuitive way, that his grip on the party will be even stronger because of these proceedings.

And that remains to be seen, obviously, but that is the fear a lot of Republicans have going into 2022.

Judy Woodruff:

And, Yvonne Sanchez?

Yvonne Wingett Sanchez:

Yes, there seems to be a sentiment that the president, the former president, will emerge stronger than perhaps he entered this phase of the trial.

Judy Woodruff:

Well, we are all watching it very closely. And we so appreciate hearing from both of you in Arizona and in Michigan.

We thank you, Yvonne Sanchez, Tim Alberta. Thank you.

Tim Alberta:

Thanks, Judy.

Yvonne Wingett Sanchez:

Thanks.