Rep. Liz Cheney on political violence, Jan. 6 committee and future of GOP

Amna Nawaz:

Political violence is on the rise. The January 6 Committee continues its work, and Americans are deeply divided on a host of issues.

One key player in all of this, Republican Liz Cheney of Wyoming. She spoke with Judy Woodruff earlier today.

Judy Woodruff:

Amna, I sat down with Representative Cheney here in Cleveland at an event sponsored by the City Club and the PBS station here, Ideastream Public Media.

I started with the brutal attack on Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband, just the latest example of political violence fueled by far right conspiracies.

Congresswoman, I want to begin with something that is sobering at this time, and that is the attack just a few days ago on the husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Paul Pelosi is still in the hospital. You have been a target of threats. You have had to hire additional security.

How did we get to this place? We know the number of threats on lawmakers has more than doubled since 2017. Why?

Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY):

Well, first of all, I know all of our thoughts and prayers are with Paul Pelosi, with Speaker Pelosi, with their whole family.

And I want to say a word about Speaker Pelosi. I did not really know her before I began work on the January 6 Committee. I'm not sure if I had ever spoken to her, actually. But since I have been on the committee — and I say this. Everyone knows she is a liberal from San Francisco. I am a conservative from Wyoming.

There are many issues, maybe most issues, on which we disagree. But I think she is a tremendous leader. I have watched her up close. She is a leader of historic consequence. She has put this committee together and demonstrated her commitment to the truth.

And I think that the demonization that goes on, on both sides — certainly, Republicans have through the years demonized Speaker Pelosi. Democrats have demonized Republicans, including my dad. And it all has to stop.

I think that, when you see what is happening in our country, when you watch the extent to which political violence — or violence has become part of political discourse, that is a — that's a road we just can't go down.

And the fact that, while Paul Pelosi was in ICU, had been brutally attacked, had a skull fracture and numerous other injuries, that there were members of my party mocking him, that there were members of President Trump's family mocking him, that's not who we are in this country. And that is disgraceful.

And,as Americans, we have to reject it. The violence at the Capitol on January 6 was a direct result of Donald Trump's claims that the 2020 election was stolen. And those claims — he continues to make those claims to this day. Others continue to make those claims to this day. And we know — it's entirely foreseeable that those will lead to violence.

So, as a nation, we all should be keeping the Pelosi family in our prayers. We all should recognize that we cannot go over an abyss of not being able to have the common human decency to stand against that violence, to condemn the violence, to pray for Mr. Pelosi and his family, and to reject those who are acting in a way that, frankly, is inhumane.

Judy Woodruff:

The January 6 Committee, which you have spent a great deal of time working on as vice chair, you have helped shape the direction of what the committee has done, how much more investigating is there to be done?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Well, it's the largest criminal case in the nation's history. And, of course, the Justice Department is responsible for the criminal investigation.

The committee itself has to conclude our work by the end of this year. But we have — we have far more to do. And we know a lot. We have interviewed more than 1,000 individuals. Millions of pages of documents have been produced. And so it is — it's been a very significant undertaking.

And we will produce a report before the end of the year. Obviously, we have had hearings that lay out what we know about what Donald Trump did, about his intent very clearly laid out with respects each of the parts of this plan to overturn the election.

But I think that the work of the Justice Department will certainly go on.

Judy Woodruff:

So, the committee has subpoenaed former President Trump. Should the committee allow him to testify in person, live, if that's what he says he will do?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Well, the committee is in discussions with President Trump's attorneys.

And he has an obligation to comply. And we treat this and take this very seriously. This is not a situation where the committee is going to put itself at the mercy of Donald Trump, in terms of his efforts to create a circus. We haven't made determinations about the format itself, but it'll be done under oath. It'll be done potentially over multiple days.

We have significant questions, based on the evidence that we have developed.

Judy Woodruff:

Do you think the odds are that he will testify or not?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I think that he has a legal obligation to testify, but that doesn't always carry weight with Donald Trump.

Judy Woodruff:

If you take them together, former President Trump, the people who deny that President Biden won the election, the people who are defending what happened on January the 6th, what do they all mean for American democracy?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I differentiate between elected Republicans and Republican voters.

I think that there are millions of Republican voters across the country who have been betrayed by Donald Trump. If you look at our elected officials, on the Republican side, you certainly have some who believe the lies. I think that's a very small number. But you have a significant number who know that the lies aren't true, but who are accommodating them.

And that is that's really dangerous, because it leads to this question around the country of people saying, well, if these really are lies, why aren't there more Republicans saying so? And if this really is a dangerous moment, why are people campaigning with some of the most dangerous election deniers?

And they're doing it for their own political purposes. And I think that's — that is a dangerous moment for the country.

Judy Woodruff:

Dangerous for our democracy.

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Yes.

Judy Woodruff:

You have done — you said in a television ad that the Republican candidates for governor and secretary of state of Arizona are a threat to democracy.

And you have made in the last few days your first endorsement of a Democrat. She is Michigan Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin. You're going to be campaigning for her later today.

This year, you received the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award. President Kennedy said, sometimes, party loyalty asks too much.

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Well, look, I think I have been a Republican ever since I first cast a vote, which was 1984.

And I don't — I don't think I have ever voted for a Democrat. I have certainly never campaigned for a Democrat. But we're at a moment now where my party has really lost its way. And it's lost its way in a way that's dangerous. It's dangerous because we have become beholden to a man who was willing to attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power.

That's never happened in this nation before. And my view is, if you really are a conservative, the most conservative of conservative principles is fidelity to the Constitution. And if you're willing to overlook an attempt to steal an election, to overturn an election, to stop a peaceful transfer of power, then you are being unfaithful to the Constitution.

And I think, given the moment we're in, we can't give power to people who have told us they won't respect the outcome of elections. And that's more important than any party belief. It's more important than any policy. And we can have big debates about policy. But you can't give somebody power if they have told you they will only honor an election if they like the outcome, because that is how the republic unravels.

Judy Woodruff:

So, that endorsement, again — and you're campaigning for Congresswoman Slotkin today — we know, here in the state of Ohio, bitter contest under way for the United States Senate seat.

You have served six years in Congress with Tim Ryan. You have often voted differently from him. The Republican candidate here, J.D. Vance, is a Trump loyalist. He says the 2020 election — quote — "was not free and fair." He said that some of the January 6 insurrections are political prisoners. And he said he doesn't really care what happens to Ukraine.

All that's very different from Paul Ryan's — I'm sorry — from Tim Ryan's positions.

(LAUGHTER)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

And Paul Ryan's too, by the way.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

Judy Woodruff:

So, who do you prefer in this race?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I would not vote for J.D. Vance.

(APPLAUSE)

Judy Woodruff:

So, if you were a Buckeye State voter, you would be voting for Tim Ryan?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I would.

Judy Woodruff:

Are there other Democrats you might endorse between now and next Tuesday?

(LAUGHTER)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Possibly, Judy.

(LAUGHTER)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I endorsed one just now, five minutes ago. So…

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

You have said of Republican House Leader Kevin McCarthy that — quote — "He's willing to sacrifice everything for his own political gain. He's been unfaithful to the Constitution."

You clearly would not be supporting him for speaker or for leader if you were voting on that. Who would be the right leader for Republicans in the House?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

You know, I hesitate to give any names, because I don't think it would help them.

(LAUGHTER)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

But Kevin McCarthy, the — he's very consistent.

Every single time he has had to make a choice between what's right or his political future, he chooses his political future. And so the speaker of the House is second in line to the presidency. It is a — we need somebody much better to be speaker of the House.

Judy Woodruff:

Are you worried, I mean, in just a few words, that there — we will see a number of candidates next Tuesday who don't concede?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Yes, I am.

And I'm worried that we could see a number of candidates elected in really important positions, as secretaries of state, as governors, who could decide that they are not going to certify results in 2024.

And I think that that really ought to drive people as you go — as you go vote, to think about that. Think about, what does it mean? You can disagree with somebody's policies. But once you give power to somebody who won't respect an election, you have to ask whether we're going to get any other future elections.

Judy Woodruff:

Just a few more.

Liz Cheney's future.

(CROSSTALK)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I like to talk about myself in the third person, always.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

All right. Your future. I will put it in second person.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

Your future, what do you envision? And does it include a run for president in 2024?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I don't — I don't know the answer to that yet. I haven't made that decision.

I don't think that's the most important question. I think the most important question is whether or not, as a nation, we're going to do everything we have to do to preserve the republic. And that's really what I'm focused on.

Judy Woodruff:

If you did decide to run, would it be as a Republican or an independent?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I haven't made any decisions about whether I'm going to run or not, Judy.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

But you're clearly giving it some thought.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

Judy Woodruff:

Didn't you hear that? OK.

And, finally, next Tuesday, is it better for the country if Republicans take control of the House?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

When you look at the people who — when you look at a number of the people who are in the Republican Conference today, people whose views were fringe two years ago, but who now have got tremendous power, I think that the American people need to understand these are not serious people, people like Paul Gosar, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who have appeared at white supremacist conferences, who've said things that are clearly antisemitic.

Those kinds — those people will have tremendous power in a Republican majority. And you're already seeing what that means, in terms of Kevin McCarthy being willing to placate them.

And so I think that people just need to understand what it will mean to have a Republican majority in the House of Representatives. The people who will be running the House of Representatives in a Republican majority will give authority and power to some of the most radical members of the conference.

And I don't think that that's good for the country.

Judy Woodruff:

So, you're saying it's better for the country if…

(CROSSTALK)

Rep. Liz Cheney:

I think I will leave it the way I said it here.

(LAUGHTER)

Judy Woodruff:

We heard you.

And just finally, if Republicans do take control of the House, is that, among other things, a validation of Donald Trump?

Rep. Liz Cheney:

Look, as I said, this is, number one, a fundamental fight for the soul of the country, not just for the soul of the Republican Party.

It's a fight that we have to win, because the stakes are so high. At the end of the day, I'm confident that Donald Trump and those who would thwart our democratic process will not prevail. And I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that's the case.

Judy Woodruff:

Representative Cheney also gave her critique of President Biden's time in office.

You can watch the entire event online at PBS.org/NewsHour and on our YouTube channel.