AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY: FIRST, IT IS UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CONSTITUENCY GREEK LIFE AFTER AN ALLEGED GANG RAPE.

WE SPEAK WITH A FORMER FRAT BOY SPEAKING OUT AGAINST FRATERNITY CULTURE.

THEN, DEBUNKING THE "OPTING OUT" MYTH.

AND, WHY THE PRESIDENT OF TURKEY SAYS MEN AND WOMEN WILL NEVER BE EQUAL.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS.

>>> THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA HELD AN EMERGENCY MEETING THIS WEEK TO REASSESS CAMPUS CULTURE.

UVA PRESIDENT TERESA SULLIVAN SUSPENDED ALL FRATERNITIES UNTIL EARLY JANUARY.

THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION CALLED FOR AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE SCHOOL'S SEXUAL ASSAULT POLICIES.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS RESPONDING TO A DAMNING ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE ARTICLE THAT ALLEGED A GANG RAPE PERPETRATED BY FRATERNITY BROTHERS INSIDE A FRAT HOUSE.

ANDREW LOHSE IS A FORMER FRAT LEADER WHO HAS WRITTEN AN EXPOSÉÉ ON FRAT LIFE, HAZING AND ITS ARE LINK TO CAMPUS RAPE.

HE SAYS IT'S TIME TO STOP THE VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT THAT PERMEATE FRAT CULTURE.

ARE.

>> TWO CUPS OF CLEAR VINEGAR IS ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR INTERNAL ORGANS ARE FAIL.

I REMEMBER, I BURST MY STOMACH CONTENTS OVER A GARBAGE CAN.

>> HE UNDERWENT THAT HAZING IN DARTMOUTH, IN HIS BOOK, CONFESSION IS OF AN IVY LEAGUE FRAT BOY.

THEIRS FORCED ACKNOWLEDGE BLURS THE LINE BETWEEN CONSENT AND OBJECTION.

>> IT'S HARD TO UNDERESTIMATE THE KIND OF SOCIAL PRESSURE THAT CAN AFFECT BOYS OF THIS AGE FROM 18, 19, TO 22, WHEN MOST OF THESE YOUNG MEN ARE IN FRATERNITIES.

THERE IS REALLY A STRONG LEVEL OF FITTING IN, YOU CAN'T REALLY CONSENT TO THESE THINGS.

>> PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA RECENTLY ANNOUNCED AN INITIATIVE TO STOP SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS.

ACCORDING TO LOHSE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO ATTEND TO THAT GOAL.

>> RAPE COWL ON CAMPUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO SCHOOLS -- CULTURE ON CAMPUSES ACROSS THE COWL, THEY COME COMPLICIT WITH THE COST OF IT.

IF I HAD A DAUGHTER, I WOULDN'T LET HER GO TO A UNIVERSITY WITH FRATERNITIES.

THE SAME SOCIAL PRESSURE THAT WOULD DRIVE THE YOUNG MEN TO PLEDGE A FRATERNITY AND TO UNDERGO THE OFTEN TIMES EXTREME AND DRAMATIC HAZING, IS A SOCIAL CULTURE THAT PERPETUATES THE ABUSE.

>> HE SINCE STARTED A CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE ABUSE, THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN MIXED, SOME ACCUSE HIM OF EXAGGERATION.

>> IT'S DISINGENUOUS FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO SAY THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT'S NOT REALLY A SECRET.

THAT THESE FRATERNITIES HAZE IN EXACTLY THE WAY I DEPICT.

>> THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO ABOLISH FRATERNITIES COMPLETELY.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VERY SECRETIVE INSTITUTIONS, THEY POSE NOT GREAT LIABILITY TO THE STUDENTS BUT ALSO GREAT LIABILITY TO THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES.

>> SO ERIN MATSON, SHOULD COLLEGES BAN FRATERNITIES TO REDUCE CAMPUS RAPE?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION, THEY EITHER NEED TO CHANGE OR BE SHUT DOWN.

>> NOT EVERY FRATERNITY IS A BREEDING GROUND FOR RAPISTS AND NOT EVERY FRAT MEMBER IS A PREDATOR.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS ON THE BAD ACTORS, WHETHER THEY ARE IN THE FRATERNITY OR ON CAMPUS GENERALLY.

>> I BEEN TO UVA, I'M ACTUALLY AN ALUM.

GREEK CULTURE AT THE FRATERNITY IS HUGE AND THESE GROUPS ARE VERY POWERFUL AND CLEARLY THE BLANK CHECK THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN IS TAKEN A A FAR.

>> THIS IS A PROBLEM, WHEN YOU HAVE SEXUAL ASSAULT GOING ON ON CAMPUSES, WE NEED MAJOR CULTURAL REFORM ON THESE CAMPUSES.

>> YOU'LL JUST WONDERING WHY IS IT SO PREVALENT TODAY, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS LAST YEAR, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE MS.

AWARDS, I INTERVIEWED GLORIA STEIN STEINEM, WAS IT NOT HATCHING OR WASN'T REPORTED?

SHE SAID NOBODY KNOWS.

TO ME IT SEEMS CRITICAL TO FIND OUT IS THIS AN EXPLOSION, IF SO, WHY AND HOW DO WE CURB IT?

>> THE STATS THAT REALLY STUCK OUT TO ME IN THAT ROLLING STONE ARTICLE WAS THAT A MAJOR (M) -- MAJORITIES OF RAPES, GREATLY CURB THE PROBLEM.

>> I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.

I THINK WE'RE HEARING ABOUT IT MORE BUT ALSO THERE'S BEEN AN EXPLOSION.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE DRINKING THAT OCCURS IN THESE CAMPUSES.

I WILL SAY AS A VERY, VERY PROUD UVA ALUM, IT'S GIVEN ME EVERYTHING, WE HAVE A HUGE DRINKING PROBLEM.

WE CALL OURSELVES THE WAHOOS, IT'S A FISH THAT CAN DRINK TWICE ITS AMOUNT.

YOU WILL BE WITH THEM THE LIBRARY THE NEXT DAY AFTER YOU PARTY WITH THEM THE NIGHT BEFORE.

>> THE GANG RAPE THAT ROLLING STONE WROTE ABOUT THE WOMAN RECOGNIZED THE LAST GUY -- >> SHE WASN'T DRINKING SHE WAS SPILLING HER BEER OUT BUT 89% THAT'S THE STATISTIC THAT WAS GIVEN IN THAT REPORT OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS ACTUALLY OCCUR AT BOTH OR ONE OF THE PARTIES WAS ACTUALLY IMOMENTED.

-- IMOSMEDDED.

-G INTOXICATED.

>> THERE ARE THREE PEER REVIEWED STUDIES THAT SAY THAT BUT E RFORTOC, END RAPE ON CAMPUS, SAYS NOTHING CAN CORROBORATE THOSE FIGURES.

THERE'S A DISPUTE.

I AGREE WITH YOU, I THINK THOSE FIGURES THAT ARE ACCURATE BUT THERE ARE GROUPS THAT SAY THEY ARE NOT.

>> THE FRATERNITY BROTHERHOOD, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION FRAT CULTURE PLAYED A HUGE ROLE ON CAMPUS.

IT MAY DEPEND ON FRATS TO SOME EXTENT BUT I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER AREA THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT AND THAT IS SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS.

RECENTLY ROLLING STONE CAME OUT WITH THE STORY ABOUT RAPE AT UVA, SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT NEED TO CHANGE AND I SAY THIS NOT LIELY BUT AS A VIRGINIAN, IT SEEMS LIKE IT SEEMS TO BE CLEAR TO ME THAT THE DEAN OF STUDENTS NEEDS TO BE FIRED FOR MINIMIZING THE PROBLEM TO THE TRUSTEES AT A MEETING IN SEPTEMBER WHERE HE DISMISSED AND MADE IT SOUND AS IF THE SCHOOL WAS UNDER JUST A ROUTINE REVIEW, THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

UVA IS ONE OF 12 CAMPUSES IN THE COUNTRY THAT'S UNDER HEIGHTENED STRICT REVIEW, BROADER SCHEME OF THINGS WHERE THERE'S YIRK SCURLS OF SCHOOLS UNDER REVIEW.

YES -- SCHOOLS UNDER REVIEW.

I LIKE THE FOWS ON FRATS BECAUSE WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE AIDERS AND ABETTORS.

>> THE PARENTS HAVE TO TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY.

ESPECIALLY FOR THE VICTIMS.

WOMEN SHOULD YOU KNOW THEY CAN WORK WITH THEIR WALL WALLETS OR POTENTIAL STUDENTS.

THEY CAN REACT BY NOT GOING TO THOSE SCHOOLS.

ONCE THE POPULATION OF ENROLLMENTS GOES DOWN MAYBE THE SCHOOLS WILL WILL ACTUALLY REACT TO IT.

>> I THINK UVA HAS ACTUALLY GOING THE MESSAGE.

SEXUAL ASSAULT ACROSS THIS COUNTRY IS AT EPIDEMIC LEVELS.

UVA HAS BECOME THE FACE OF THIS ISSUE.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> IN THE PAST WEEK BECAUSE THIS ARTICLE WENT VIRAL.

>> NO, NO, I'M ASKING YOU WHY IS IT AT EPIDEMIC LEVELS?

WHY?

>> I THINK EVERY DPUS HAS A DIFFERENT -- CAMPUS HAS A DIFFERENT REASON FOR IT BUT FRATS -- >> IS THIS A PHENOMENON THAT HAS HAPPENED TEN, 15 YEARS OR HAS THIS GONE ON FOREVER?

DO WOMEN FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE AND ACTUALLY REPORT IT SAYING I WAS ASSAULTED?

>> CLEARLY, YOU SHOULDN'T -- IF THE DEAN OF UVA SAYS YOU SHOULD FORGIVE YOUR RAPIST AND ADMITTING THEY DON'T EXPEL FOR ASSAULT -- >> DID YOU KNOW WOMEN WHO WERE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AT UVA WAS IT TALKED ABOUT BY WOMEN?

>> I DIDN'T KNOW IT BUTTER THERE WAS A BETA BRIDGE, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF SCANDAL GOING ON, WE KNEW WE HAD TO BE CAREFUL.

>> THE ISSUE OF COURTS SET UP, AND THESE SEXUAL ASSAULT BOARDS ON CAMPUS WHAT THEIR REAL ROLE WAS, WHY THESE PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING LEGAL CHARGES AGAINST THEM.

>> WHY DON'T THE SCHOOLS EVERY TIME THEY GET A CHARGE SEND THE WOMAN WITH SOMEBODY FROM THE SCHOOL DOWN TO THE POLICE OFFICE?

>> I THINK IT RAISES A WAIT QUESTION ABOUT THESE.

>> DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH IT.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THESE FRATS HAVE GOTTEN THE MESSAGE AT A YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE.

>> IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE TO ME.

NOW WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT FIRING ONE OF THE OFFICIALS THE DEAN OF STUDENTS.

THERE IS A WOMAN PRESIDENT THERE NOW.

IS THAT WHY WE HAVE SEEN A SUSPENSION OF ALL FRAT ACTIVITIES UNTIL JANUARY, TERESA SULLIVAN?

>> WELL, THE FACT THAT THERE'S A WOMAN PRESIDENT, I DON'T WANT TO ESSENTIALIZE AND SAY SOMETHING HAS OR HASN'T HAPPENED JUST BECAUSE SHE'S A WOMAN.

IT'S A STEP THAT SHE'S BANNED FRATERNITIES UNTIL JANUARY.

IT'S A GOOD STEP TO TAKE BUS CLEARLY MUCH MORE ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN.

SYSTEMIC LEVEL AND FIRING SOME PEOPLE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT NOT BANNING FRATS ON CAMPUS.

>> RIGHT.

>> I TALKED TO MY HUSBAND THIS WEEK WHO WAS A BIG FRAT BOY AT GEORGIA STATE AND ALSO IS A VERY BIG FEMINIST, PRO-WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

HE SAYS BANNING ALL FRATS WOULD BE WAY OVERBROAD A RESPONSE TO THIS PROBLEM.

>> YES, IT'S THE ACTIVES NOT HOUSE ITSELF NOT THIS PERSONA OF A FRATERNITY HOUSE.

I THINK ABOUT WHAT THESE GENTLEMEN SAID, THE AUTHOR SAID A FEW MINUTES AGO ABOUT THE HAZING.

TO START THIS PROCESS TO BE PART OF THIS GROUP, IF IT'S ACCEPTABLE TO BEAT EACH OTHER, GIVE EACH OTHER ALCOHOL POISONING, THEN THEY COULD SAY I CAN TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER AND NEVER GET IN TROUBLE FOR IT.

>> THE ARTICLE GAVE YOU A SENSE THERE'S NO ACTIVIST CULTURE AT UVA, I WOULD STRANGLY -- STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH IT.

THE WOMEN'S CENTER THERE IS VERY, VERY ACTIVE ESPECIALLY THE DIRECTOR AND I BECAME A FEMINIST AND AN ACTIVIST THERE.

IT'S A CULTURE YOU ABOUTs.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, FOLLOW ME @BONNIE ERBE.

FROM SEXUAL ASSAULT TO WOMEN TO THE GENDER GAP.

ARE NOT "OPTING OUT."

THE GENDER GAP IS REAL AND WOMEN ARE NOT "OPTING OUT."

THAT'S WHAT RESEARCHERS STUDYING HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL GRADUATES FOUND AS THEY ATTEMPTED TO UNDERSTAND THE CHASM IN CAREER OUTCOMES FOR HIGH ACHIEVING MEN AND WOMEN.

>>> WOMEN WHO HAVE ALL THE ADVANTAGES STILL STRUGGLE, STILL SEE GENDER GAPS, STILL HAVE DIFFICULTY REALIZING THEIR CAREERS AND FAMILY ASPIRATIONS.

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS TO WOMEN WHO AREN'T AS PRIVILEGED.

>>> 65% OF FEMALE ALUMNAE SURVEYED RETURNED TO WORK WITHIN A YEAR OF CHILDBIRTH EAGER TO FIND A WAY TO KEEP RISING CAREER-WISE AND RAISE A FAMILY.

WOMEN EXPECTED TO RISE IN THE RANKS AS QUICKLY AS THEIR SPOUSES EVEN THOUGH THEY'D HAD MORE CHILDCARE RESPONSIBILITIES.

>> THEY'RE EVERY BIT AS AMBITIOUS AS THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS.

I THINK IT'S AN UNDERSTANDABLE DISCONNECT.

WOMEN WANTED TO HAVE MORE EGALITARIAN RELATIONSHIPS IN TERMS OF WHOSE CAREER TOOK PRECEDENCE.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS DIFFERENT.

THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO SEE THEIR CAREERS TAKE A BACK SEAT.

>> THE FEW FEMALE ALUMNAE WHO DID NOT RETURN TO WORK SOON AFTER CHILDBIRTH SAID THEY SIMPLY FOUND THEIR JOBS UNFULFILLING WITH LITTLE ROOM FOR ADVANCEMENT.

WHILE MEN ENJOYED A FATHERHOOD PREMIUM, MOTHERS WERE NO LONGER CONSIDERED "PLAYERS."

THEY WERE PASSED OVER FOR HIGH PROFILE ASSIGNMENTS AND EVEN REMOVED FROM PROJECTS THEY HAD LED.

>> SO DAR LEENL, THEY KNOW THIS IN EUROPE.

SOME COUNTRIES REQUIRE THE MEN TO TAKE PATERNITY LEAVE.

WHY ARE WE SO DUMB, PARDON THE USE OF THIS TERM IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT WOMEN CAN GET OUT OF HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL AND THINK THAT THEY CAN TAKE TIME OUT OF THEIR CAREERS AND GO BACK EQUAL TO THE PACE THAT THE MEN WHO HAVEN'T TAKEN TIME OFF ARE REACHING?

>> WELL YOU KNOW, THERE IS A FEW THINGS BONNIE.

ONE OF THEM, SWEDEN, ICELAND, NORWAY, MAKING SURE THAT THERE'S EQUALITY WITH LEAVE IN, MAKING SURE THAT THE WOMEN HAVE STARTED RIGHT -- >> BY THE WAY, WOMEN STILL SAY, THEY STILL SAY IT'S NOT EQUAL BUT THEY'RE CLOSER THAN WE ARE.

>> RIGHT, THEY'RE CLOSER THAN WE ARE.

>> BUT WHY THIS EXPECTATION?

WHY DON'T WOMEN KNOW BY NOW IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A FEMALE -- MALE PARTNER WHO IS GOING TO SHARE WITH YOU -- >> I'M AMAZING BY THIS REPORT, SEEMS LIKE PEOPLE ARE GOING INTO MARRIAGES AND RELATIONSHIPS NOT KNOWING WHAT THE OTHER EXPECTS.

I LEAVE BUSINESS SCHOOL, I'M GOING TO BE THE HIGH POWERED CEO AND NOW I'M MARRIED WITH THE GUY WHO SAYS I'M GOING TO BE THE CEO.

THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

IT'S A BIGGER PICTURE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WOMEN BEING DISSATISFIED.

MY QUESTION IS ARE THESE WOMEN ADVOCATING FOR THEMSELVES AS MUCH AS THEY COULD BE, ARE THERE MENTORS AVAILABLE TO MAKE SURE THEY DO GET THE OPPORTUNITIES?

>> I'M WITH YOU BONNIE.

WOMEN ARE DUMB BUT YOU'D BE SURPRISED HOW MANY DUMB DISCUSSIONS PEOPLE MAKE.

HAVE YOU TALKED ABOUT IT THIS?

I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD BE HAVING CHILDREN OR GETTING MARRIED FOR THAT MATTER.

PEOPLE DON'T DISCUSS KEY FINANCIAL DECISIONS -- >> I TELL THIS TO WOMEN WHO ARE UPSET, WITH ME FOR SAYING THIS.

I'M SORRY IT WAS TRUE.

IT WAS HARD ENOUGH TO FIND A HUSBAND, OH MY GOODNESS!

>> THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF -- I MEAN IT IS, IT IS AN INDICATION OF WHAT HIGH-POWERED WOMEN TRULY FACE THOUGH.

>> ONE TREND I'M HAPPY TO SEE WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THESE BIG COMPANIES LIKE MORGAN STANLEY, BIG LAW FIRMS, ARE STARTING PROGRAMS THAT AREESTER FOR -- ARE HER EASIER FOR WOMEN TO GET BACK IN THE WORKPLACE.

>> YOU HAVE TO FEND FOR YOURSELF.

FINALLY BECAUSE WOMEN ARE STARTING TO COMPLAIN, WORKPLACES ARE MAYBE WE SHOULD ACCOMMODATED THEM, INSTEAD OF -- ACCOMMODATE THEM INSTEAD OF TREATING THEM AS PARTNERS.

>> AGAIN THE SAME DATA THAT WE KEEP SEEING THAT WOMEN ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FACT THAT THEY'RE BEING PAID LESS AND PROMOTED LESS RIGHT?

THERE ARE SYSTEMIC FACTORS THAT ARE CAUSING THIS PROBLEM.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT MEN SIMPLY DON'T HAVE THE SAME IDEAS ABOUT WHAT EQUALITY MEANS.

AND SO WE NEED TO WORK ON TRANSFORMING MEN.

WE ALSO NEED TO TAKE CONCRETE STEPS WITHIN COMPANIES TO ENSURE THAT WOMEN ARE PROMOTED AND PAID HIGHER, NOT SOMETHING WE CAN SOLVE BY GETTING A LITTLE BIT MORE ESTEEM THEMSELVES WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY BLAMING WOMEN.

>> WHAT YOU DO I THINK -- WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT MAKING COMPANIES COME ALONG?

>> BEING MORE OPEN MINDED, THIS IS AN INTERESTING TOPIC, IT'S TIMELY FOR ME, I'M ONE OF THOSE GAPERS THAT TOOK TIME OFF FOR PERSONAL REASONS, MEDICAL REASONS.

I'M TRYING TO DUCK AND DODGE WHEN SOMEBODY RESPONDS, SAYING, WHY ARE YOU MISSING THREE YEARS OF WORK?

MY COUNTERPART GENTLEMAN COULD SAY, I DID THIS I DID THAT YOU CAN MOVE ON.

THERE IS AN ISSUE THAT WE NEED -- THE CULTURE OF THE HR PEOPLE OF THE BOSSES THE MANAGERS YOU KNOW THEIR EXPECTATIONS SHOULD BE THE SAME FOR A MAN OR A WOMAN IF THEY'RE BOTH OUT OF THE MARKET.

>> WELL, I'M SURE YOUR MEASLES COLLEAGUES SAID HE TOOK THREE YEARS OFF TO RAISE HIS KIDS HE WOULD BE GIVEN THE PROMOTION AND NOT PENALIZED LIKE WOMEN ARE.

>> MEN AND WOMEN FINDING A BETTER WAY TO BUILD FULFILLING LIVES, THAT MEANS COMPANIES ARE GOING TO MAKE CHOICES TO KEEP ARE VALUED EMPLOYEES.

APPLE FREEZING EGGS TO KEEP KEY EMPLOYEES.

SUPPORTING A DYNAMIC COMPANY WHERE YOU HAVE GROWTH AND BUSINESSES THAT ARE EAGER TO HIRE PEOPLE AND THEN THEY ARE GOING TO BE COMPETING FOR MEN AND WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE.

>> SHOULD WE BE, SHOULD HARD OF BUSINESS SCHOOL OR ANY -- HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL OR ANY BUSINESS SCHOOL, TELL GRADUATES, GO OUT WORK FOR A BIG FIRM, WHATEVER IT IS, GET THREE FOUR YEARS OF EDUCATION ABOUT THE INDUSTRY, START YOUR FAMILY, AND THEN COME BACK AS A CONSULTANT?

BECAUSE THERE IS -- BY THE WAY, THERE IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE THERE'S NO PAY GAP CONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS IS WHEN WOMEN RUN THEIR OWN SMALL COMPANIES.

>> AND THAT'S NOT SURPRISING.

YOU KNOW THERE'S ACTUALLY A COPYRIGHTER, WHO PRETENDED SHE WAS A MAN.

SHE REALIZED SHE GOT PAID MORE BY USING WHAT APPEARED TO BE A MAN'S NAME.

IT'S SAD BUT IT'S TRUE THAT PEOPLE INSTINCTIVELY WANT TO PAY MEN MORE.

BUT TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT CONSULTING.

THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION ARE WOMEN BETTER OFF IF THEY GO IT ALONE?

THEY MAY WELL BE.

>> BUT YOU STILL MAKE BIG MONEY IF YOU WORK FOR YOURSELF.

>> YOU HAVE THE FLEXIBLE HOURS THAT YOU NEED.

>> THAT STILL DOESN'T ABSOLVE CORPORATIONS OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE CHANGES IN THEIR LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE.

>> I HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

DON'T WOMEN HURT THEMSELVES WHEN THEY EXPECT MORE OF CORPORATIONS AND WANT MORE BENEFITS?

AND WANT MORE ASSISTANCE THAN THE MEN DO?

I THINK THEY DO.

I THINK THEY HURT THEMSELVES.

>> GREAT QUESTION.

AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS NO, NOT AT ALL.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET CHANGE UNLESS WE DEMAND IT AND EXPECT IT AND SITTING BACK AND WAITING FOR COMPANIES TO SOF THE PROBLEM ON THEIR OWN -- TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM ON THEIR OWN THEY CLEARLY AREN'T.

>> IF YOU ASK FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT, IT'S NOT FAIR TO YOUR COLLEAGUES AND IT DOES AFFECT YOU AND I THINK YOU KNOW -- >> IT'S NOT SPECIAL TREATMENT.

>> I'M MAYBE USING THE TERM A LITTLE FLIPPANT.

>> AND I WANT TO TAKE A YEAR OFF AND COME BACK.

[SIMULTANEOUS SPEECH] >> DIDN'T TAKE THE YEAR OFF.

NO NO I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR OR ACCEPTABLE I THINK THAT YOU KNOW -- >> FOR YOUR COLLEAGUE THAT'S WHAT HE DID, PROBABLY A MAN ONCE AGAIN PROVING MY POINT, CORPORATIONS ACCOMMODATE MEN NOT WOMEN.

[SIMULTANEOUS SPEECH] >> KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED AND DON'T GET PREGNANT.

>> KEEP YOUR NOSE DOWN OR GET PAID LESS.

WHAT'S THE SOLUTION THEN IF WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY ANYTHING?

>> WE'RE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT HERE.

>> AND NOW ANOTHER EXPLANATION FOR THE GENDER GAP.

BONNIE SOT THE PRESIDENT OF TURKEY SAID AT AN INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS THAT MEN AND WOMEN CAN NEVER BE EQUAL, AND THAT WOMEN SHOULD NOT DO CERTAIN JOBS BECAUSE THEIR BODIES ARE DIFFERENT.

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN CRITICIZED FEMINISM AS BEING ANTI- MOTHERHOOD AND CONTRASTED IT WITH ISLAM, THE RELIGION HE FOLLOWS, WHICH HE SAYS HOLDS MOTHERHOOD AS SACRED.

>> SO WHAT IS IT WITH TURKEY?

WHAT IS IT I'M SOIRT WITH SOME, NOT -- I'M SORRY WITH SOME, NOT ALL, BUT MANY ISLAMIC COUNTRIES THAT THEY JUST DON'T GET IT ABOUT WOMEN?

>> I THINK THEY GET IT, THE ISSUE IS POLITICIAN HE LIKE THIS, WHO IS HE?

HE NEEDS TO GO.

REMEMBER WHEN TURKEY WAS A GLOWING MODEL?

>> A DATURK, A HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

>> BUT TURKEY WAS A GLOWING EXAMPLE OF WHAT A MODERATE MUSLIM COUNTRY THAT WAS VERY CLOSE TO GETTING EU MEMBERSHIP, AND NOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AND MEN AREN'T EVEN EQUAL?

HE DOESN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE IS SAYING.

HE IS PLAYING TO A VERY CONSERVATIVE RIGHT WING BASE, THAT'S WHAT HE'S BEEN DOING FOR ALMOST A DECADE NOW, WOMEN'S RIGHTS UNDER ERDOGAN HAVE BEEN DEGUESSING.

THEY WERE RANKED BY THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM AS PLACING 126 FOR 130 FOR THEIR GENDERS EQUALITY.

>> WHY WERE THEY BEFORE EGD DO YOU ERDOGAN DO YOU KNOW?

>> VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IS OFF THE CHARTS ESPECIALLY -- >> AND THEY'VE HAD A FEMALE PRIME MINISTER, WE INTERVIEWED HER.

>> MORE IS RELIGIOUS MORE CONSERVATIVE CULTURE, PERIOD.

HE HAS BANNED ALCOHOL, ENCOURAGES THE VEIL, IT'S BEEN BEING COMPLETELY DETERIORATING UNDER HIS WATCH, IT'S BAD NEWS FOR WOMEN.

>> WHAT ARE WOMEN DOING.

>> TERRIFIED.

THEY ARE SPEAKING OUT, YOU'LL SEE INCREASINGLY IT'S IN THE PRESS.

NOT HARDER TO MOBILIZE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS BUT FOR DEMOCRACY IN PARTICULAR.

INTERNET LAWS IN TURKEY ARE BECOMING MUCH MORINGS STRICT.

YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING AGAINST THIS GUY.

I HOPE I GET MY NEXT VISA TO TURKEY.

>> IT'S AN ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS THING HE SAID.

YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS BUT I DO, IN THE SENSE THAT IF HE'S FOLLOWING A STRICT RELIGION, INTERPRETING ISLAM IN A STRICT WAY, HE BELIEVES WOMEN'S SHOULD BE COVERED -- >> THE CORE MESSAGES OF ISLAM RESPECT WOMEN AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

WE'RE HE DIFFERENT IN WOMEN, LOOK AT THEM BREAST FEEDING.

THEY'RE DIFFERENT FROM MEN DOING LABOR WORK.

CONSUME WHO ARE YOU?

YOU HAVE NO ACADEMIC OR SPIRITUAL BACKGROUND TO TALK ABOUT -- HE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE REVEERED AS MOTHERS IN ISLAM CULTURE.

>> THIS IS A GLOBAL PROBLEM THAT MOTHERS ARE DEVALUED THAT AS SEEN AS INCOMPATIBLE WITH EQUALITY.

MY WORD, FORGET IT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK, TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪F FOUNDATION.

>> FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY" PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT WWW.PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.