FREE HAUF FOUNDATION >> BONNIE: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY," FIRST, WESTERN WOMEN RECRUITING OTHERS TO JOIN THE JIHAD.

THEN, WOMEN'’’S COLLEGES ACCEPTING TRANSGENDER STUDENTS.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES: WHY THE LGBT MOVEMENT MAKES GAINS WHILE WOMEN'’’S RIGHTS ARE SLIPPING.

>> BONNIE: HELLO, I'’’M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE BRIDE OF ISIS.

THE PARENTS OF A 20-YEAR-OLD BRITISH WOMAN SAY THEY'’’RE SHOCKED TO HAVE LEARNED SHE IS A FEMALE JIHADIST RECRUITING WESTERN GIRLS TO JOIN THE MOVEMENT.

THEY'’’RE CALLED "““BEDROOM RADICALS"”” BECAUSE THESE WOMEN DO NOT ACT DIRECTLY AS MARTYRS OR POLITICAL ACTIVISTS, INSTEAD THEIR ROLES ARE GETTING MARRIED TO AND CHILD BEARING FOR ISIS FIGHTERS.

AQSA MAHMOOD WAS KNOWN IN HER GLASGOW SUBURB AS A SWEET AND PEACEFUL GIRL, BUT SHE RAN OFF TO SYRIA LAST YEAR REPORTEDLY MARRYING A JIHADIST FIGHTER.

MAHMOOD IS ONE OF AT LEAST 50 BRITISH WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO HAVE JOINED THE MOVEMENT.

AN ONLINE CAMPAIGN USES SOCIAL MEDIA TO ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO COPY THE ACTS OF OTHER MILITANTS SUCH AS THE BOSTON MARATHON BOMBERS.

MANY ARE WONDERING IF THESE SO-CALLED "JIHAD SISTERS" WILL EVENTUALLY CARRY OUT TERRORISTS ATTACKS OF THEIR OWN.

SO FRAN CHESS YEAH CHAMBERS, WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES WESTERN BORN AND RAISED GIRLS JOIN THE JIHAD?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IT'S ONLY A FEW WOMEN RELATIVELY OVERALL.

THIS IS A PHENOMENON.

THIS IS NOT WIDESPREAD.

>> AGREE.

AND IT'S A FEW WOMEN THAT SHOULDN'T BE USED AS AN EXCUSE TO FURTHER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MUSLIM WOMEN, AND I'M AFRAID IT WILL.

>> I THINK AT THIS STAGE I AGREE WITH THE TWO LADIES, THAT IT IS A VERY UNPREDICTABLE AND SCARCE TYPE OF OCCURRENCE.

>> IT'S A FEW WOMEN AND IT'S UNPREDICTABLE BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED INTO.

>> RIGHT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE MEN BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THAT MANY FIGURES ON THE WOMEN YET BUT THERE ARE 260 FORMER BRITS OR BRITISH-BORN CITIZENS WITH BRITISH PASSPORTS FIGHTING FOR ISIS OR ISIL IN SYRIA AND ABOUT 100 AMERICANS, ACCORDING TO DEFENSE SECRETARY CHUCK HAGEL THIS WEEK.

HOW MANY DO YOU THINK OF THE WOMEN THERE ARE?

>> I MEAN, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

>> AND YOU'RE COVERING THIS ISSUE.

>> I HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS ISSUE FOR THE DAILY MAIL, AND I THINK THE BIG PROBLEM IS DETERMINING HOW MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE OVER THERE ARE IN FACT PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE TERRORIST TIES OR THEY'RE JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAVELING OVER THERE AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN HAVING A DIFFICULT TIME TRYING TO DO THAT BOTH HERE AND IN BRITAIN.

>> SO WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT?

BECAUSE APPARENTLY THESE ARE -- YOU MENTIONED THE POSSIBILITY OF DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ISLAMIC IMMIGRANTS TO THE U.K. OR TO THE U.S.

BUT WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT?

APPARENTLY THESE ARE MIDDLE-CLASS, LOWER-MIDDLE CLASS PARENTS WHO CAME OVER FROM PLACES LIKE SOMALIA TO THE U.K.

I'M TALKING ABOUT NOW, AND THEIR DAUGHTERS AND SOME OF THEIR SONS JUST WENT REALLY BAD.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO STOP THAT?

SHOULD THEY HAVE THEIR PASSPORTS REVOKE?

SHOULD THEY BE THROWN IN JAIL IF THEY COME BACK TO THEIR COUNTRY OF BIRTH?

WHAT?

>> BRITAIN ACTUALLY INTRODUCED LEGISLATION THIS PAST WEEK TO HANDLE THAT.

THEY'RE GOING TO NOW BE DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU SUGGESTED, PUTTING THEIR PASSPORTS ON HOLD UNTIL THEY CAN DO A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY DO HAVE TIES WITH TERRORIST NETWORKS OR NOT.

>> AND WHAT'S THE LURE FOR THE GIRLS?

I MEAN ARE THEY JUST LONELY OR BECAUSE THEY WERE RAISED IN CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS HOMES, WERE THEY GIVEN LITTLE EXPOSURE TO THE OUTSIDE AND SOME GUY COMES ALONG IN A SITUATION WHERE THEY'RE NOTE MEETING MANY MEN BECAUSE THEY'RE CLUSTERED AWAY FROM THEM AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY THINK THIS IS ROMANTIC AND WONDERFUL?

>> WELL, IT'S DIFFERENT FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL CASE BUT I DO THINK YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT THERE.

IN THE CASE OF THE GIRL THAT IT WAS TALKED ABOUT DURING THE SEGMENT, YOU KNOW, HER FRIEND DISCUSSED HOW THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED TO DATE, THEY WERE PUT IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY HAD ARRANGEDMAKERS AND SO -- AND I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE A LEAP HERE BUT JUST SPEAKING TO YOUR POINT IF YOU'RE IN A SITUATION YOU HAVE TO MATTER E. MARRY SOMEONE FOR AN ARRANGE MARRIAGE IT ISN'T A HUGE JUMP FOR THEM HAD TO SAY I'M GOING TO FLY OFF AND MARRY SOMEONE ELSE I HAVE NEVER MET.

>> A LOT OF THESE GIRLS ARE TWEETING.

WHY CAN'T WE FIND THEM?

IF THEY'RE TWEETING, THEY'VE GOT A COMPUTER THAT THEY'RE USING SOMEWHERE THAT CAN BE TRACED.

>> WELL, I THINK WE ALL HAVE JUSTIFIABLE REASONS TO BE AFRAID THAT IN FACT WE CAN BE FOUND ON THE BASIS OF OUR INTERNET ACTIVITY, BASED ON OTHER REVELATIONS THAT HAVE COME OUT IN THE PRESS, BUT I THINK WITH THE TWEETING AND THE BUMBLER, INTERESTINGLY THIS MAKES ME THINK A BIT ABOUT INSPIRATION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I'M NOT CONFLATING TERRORISM AND SELF-HARM IN ANY WAY.

HOWEVER, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU HAVE THESE COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ABLE TO COME TOGETHER ON THE INTERNET AND BUILD UP A JUSTIFICATION FOR DOING THESE HORRIBLE THINGS, EITHER TO THEMSELVES OR TO OTHER PEOPLE.

>> CLARA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, BY THE WAY.

YOU'VE SPENT A LONG TIME STUDYING THE MIDDLE EAST.

WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST WAY, DO YOU THINK, TO DEAL WITH PARTICULARLY THE WOMEN WHO HAVE GONE OVER?

IF THEY DECIDE AS MANY OF THE MEN ARE NOW TELLING SCOTLAND YARD THEY WENT OVER, THEY AREN'T HAPPY, IT'S NOT THE HEAVEN THAT THEY WERE PROMISED IT WOULD BE, THEY'RE BEING NOT GIVEN MUCH FOOD, HORRIBLE ACCOMMODATIONS AND FIGHTING AND KILLING PEOPLE, KILLING ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF MUSLIMS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE FIGHTING AGAINST OTHER MUSLIM GROUPS, NOT JUST AGAINST ASSAD IN SYRIA, SO DO WE USE THOSE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COME BACK AND SEND THEM BACK INTO THEIR -- WHERE THEY WERE BORN IN THE U.K. AND THE U.S. AND GET THEM TO DESCRIBE TO OTHERS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS HOW HORRIBLE IT REALLY IS IF YOU DO THIS?

OR DO WE PREVENT THEM FROM COMING BACK?

WHAT'S BETTER?

>> WELL, YOU RAISE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT BUT IMPORTANT POINTS, BONNIE, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I'M DELIGHTED TO BE HERE TODAY.

FOR THE MOST PART I THINK THE IRONY OF THIS SITUATION THAT YOU HAVE SOME VERY STRONG AND COURAGEOUS ARAB AND IRANIAN WOMAN THAT ARE COMING TO THE UNITED STATES DESCRIBING HOW TERRIBLE THE CONDITIONS ARE, HOW THE TWO PHASES IN WHICH THEY HAVE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES, THE PUBLIC FACE HAS TO BE A QUIET AND SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES, THE PRIVATE FACE SHARES WHAT'S GOING ON.

SO I REALLY AM CONVINCE THAT HAD ONLY A HANDFUL OF WESTERN WOMEN OR WOMEN FROM THE U.K. WILL MAKE THE JOURNEY OVER THERE.

THERE MUST BE SOME FLAWS IN THEIR THINKING, A 0 MANT SIDES VERSION OF AN ADVENTURE WHAT IS HAPPENING OVER THERE THAT REALLY PRECIPITATES THE JOURNEY OVER THERE.

>> WHAT ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE?

ARE THEY BEING MADE -- >> ONCE THEY GET THERE?

>> WELL, BEFORE.

ARE THEY RAPE VICTIMS WHO -- >> IT'S CONCEIVABLE.

>> -- WHO ARE TRYING TO ESCAPE THAT?

>> IT'S CONCEIVABLE.

WHAT HAPPENS I THINK HAPPENS MENTALLY, SO THERE MUST BE SOME TYPE OF REACTION SIMILAR TO A CULT FOLLOWER, YOU KNOW, OR PERHAPS SOMEONE THAT ENGAGES IN VIOLENT BEHAVIOR, HAS THAT POTENTIAL.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE BEFOREHAND HOW DO YOU MONITOR IT BY SEEING THEIR SOCIAL MEDIA AND TWITTER ACTIVITY, YOU KNOW, WHERE ESSENTIALLY MOST OF THE TIME YOU CAN'T PREVENT.

YOU CAN ONLY TAKE ACTION AFTER THINGS HAPPEN.

YOU AT BIM CONVINCED IT WILL ONLY BE A HANDFUL OF WESTERN WOMEN WHO WILL MAKE THE JOURNY.

>> I THINK WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS WHEN YOU SAID THAT YOU CAN'T PREVENT, SOME OF THE WOMEN, THEY'RE TEENAGERS, THEY'RE IN THEIR EARLY 20s, THEY'RE ELEVATE HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES, AND I THINK THAT IT'S A RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PARENTS TO MONITOR WHAT IT IS THAT YOUR CHILDREN ARE DOING UNDER YOUR ROOF, AND SO THE STORY OF THE YOUNG WOMEN THAT WE HEARD, SHE STARTED TO WITHDRAW FROM HER FRIENDS, SHE STARTED TO WITHDRAW FROM HER SCHOOL, SHE WAS SPENDING A LOT OF TIME ALONE IN THEY ARE ROOM, AND AS A PARENT YOU WANT TO ASK WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE YOU GOING?

YOU CAN LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF YOUR CHILD'S PHONE TO SEE WHAT SITES THEY'VE BEEN ON AND WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING AND GET THEM THE HELP THAT THEY NEED AND START TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE OUT IN THE OPEN BECAUSE THESE YOUNG WOMEN, THEY'RE GOING TO THESE SOCIAL MEDIA SITES, THEY'RE GOING TO THESE PLACES BECAUSE THEY WANT COMMUNITY, AND THERE'S A REASON WHY THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE A LACK OF THAT CONNECTION, AND I THINK I THAT IT'S UP TO THEIR PARENTS TO TAKE A RESPONSIBILITY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S MISSING.

>> IS THAT A MESSAGE THAT'S EASIER TO CONVEY TO PARENT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES?

AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FIRST GENERATION IMMIGRANTS FOR THE MOST PART FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, FROM ARAB COUNTRIES.

IS THAT EASIER TO GET TO, THAT MESSAGE TO THE COMMUNITY HERE OR THE ONE IN ENGLAND?

>> I'M NOT SURE WHERE IT WOULD BE EASIER, BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE LEAVING THEIR COUNTRIES, THEY'RE FIRST GENERATION IMMIGRANTS IS IT'S BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PROVIDE A BETTER HIGH OF FOR THEIR FAMILIES, WHETHER THEY'RE FLEEING WAR, FAMINE, JOB OPPORTUNITIES, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT MOVE PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOME COUNTRY TO ANOTHER PLACE, AND SO THEY DO THAT WITH THE BELIEF THAT THEIR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO HAVE BETTER LIVES THAN THEY DID, AND SO IT'S ABOUT HAVING THAT OPEN CONVERSATION AND SAYING WHAT KIND OF WORLD AM I OPENING UP FOR MY CHILDREN BY BRINGING THEM TO THE YOU BE OR BRINGING THEM TO THE UNITED STATES AND HAVING TO BE VIGILANT BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO BRING THAT TYPE SHAME ONTO THEIR FAMILY OF THEIR CHILDREN FLEEING AND GOING BACK TO EITHER, YOU KNOW, GOING INTO TERRORIST LAND AND PARTICIPATING IN THAT.

THERE'S ALREADY SO MUCH STIGMA THAT FAMILIES HAVE, FIRST GENERATION FAMILIES, ISLAMIC FAMILIES AND WHAT HAVE YOU THAT ARE COMING IN THAT THEY DON'T WANT THAT BURDEN PUT BACK ON THEM.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

PLEASE FOLLOW MOW ON TWITTER@BONNIE ERBÉÉ OR AT TO THE CONTRARY.

>>> FROM TERRORISM TO TRANSGENDER STUDENTS.

>> BONNIE: THE PRESIDENT OF MOUNT HOLYOKE, ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED WOMEN'’’S COLLEGES IN THE COUNTRY, ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THE SCHOOL IS FORMALLY ACCEPTING TRANSGENDER STUDENTS.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MET WITH AN ENTHUSIASTIC RECEPTION.

>> PRESIDENT: OUR NEW POLICY FORMALLY WELCOMES APPLICATIONS FROM ANY QUALIFIED STUDENT WHO IS FEMALE OR WHO IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN.

[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> MT.

HOLYOKE IS THE SECOND WOMEN'’’S COLLEGE TO DO SO AFTER MILLS COLLEGE IN OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA, EARLIER THIS MONTH.

WHILE TRANSGENDER WOMEN WERE NOT FORMALLY EXCLUDED BEFORE, THEY WERE ALSO NOT FORMALLY WELCOMED.

SCHOOL OFFICIALS SAID THEY FEARED NOT HAVING AN EXPLICIT WELCOMING POLICY DISCOURAGED TRANSGENDER STUDENTS.

>> PRESIDENT: WE RECOGNIZE THAT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A NOT STATIC.

>> SO AND SHE ALSO SAID, BY THE WAY, ERIN, THAT A WOMAN IS NOT DEFINED BY HER BODY.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE THAT IS.

>> LOVE IT.

THIS IS FANTASTIC NEWS FOR STUDENTS EVERYWHERE, AND IT'S REALLY AN IMPORTANT TURNING POINT IN HOW WE START TO THINK ABOUT GENDER IN SOCIETY MORE BROADLY AS WELL AS WITHIN SPECIFICALLY WOMEN'S SPACES, IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT, AND BEYOND, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WOMEN INCLUDES TRANSGENDER WOMEN, UNEQUIVOCALLY, FULL STOP AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE AFFIRMATIVE STEPS TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE FEEL WELCOME.

I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST ASSUMED.

BEING TRANSGENDER IS ASSOCIATED WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, ENORMOUSLY HIGH SUICIDE RITES RATES, IN FACT MORE THAN 40% OF TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUAL HAVE ATTEMPTED SUICIDE AT SOME POINT.

>> WHAT IS IT FOR AMONG THE GENERAL POPULATION?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

>> I'M SURE IT'S NOT -- DON'T MAKE ME DO MATH ON TV.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> ANYWAY -- >> IS IT NINE TIMES AS MUCH TRANSGENDER.

>> >> NINE TIMES EVERYONE ELSE, AND I CAN ALSO SAY THAT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ARE ALSO DISPROPORTION THINK VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE.

45% OF PEOPLE MURDERED ARE TRANSGENDER WOMEN.

AND SO WE NEED TO HAVE A SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT GENDER AND MAKING SURE THAT WE INCLUDE TRANSGENDER PEOPLE IN ALL OF THE ADVANCES WE'RE MAKING TOWARD EQUALITY.

>> IS THERE ANY DOWNSIDE TO THIS?

ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO WON'T WANT -- WHO MAY HAVE WANTED TO ATTEND HOLYOKE OR MILLS WHO WILL BE TURNED OFF AND NOT WANT TO GO?

>> WELL, TITUS UP TO PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS TO DECIDE IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY THINK WILL ENCOURAGE MORE PEOPLE TO COME TO THAT UNIVERSITY, AND IF THEY BELIEVE THAT THAT WON'T BE A TURN-OFF, GOODER THEM.

BUT IF OTHER WOMEN'S COLLEGES DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY MIGHT NOTE WANT TO PUT A POLICY LIKE THAT IN PLACE, JUST LIKE SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL BLACK UNIVERSITIES OR THE TRADITIONAL MEN'S UNIVERSITIES OR OTHER, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY THROUGHOUT TIME THERE'S BEEN PLENTY OF UNIVERSITIES THAT HAVE BEEN FOR A SPECIFIC TYPE OF PERSON IN THE COUNTRY AND THEY MIGHT NOT WANT TO ACCEPT DIFFERENT PEOPLE FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

>> I -- I WANT TO OFFER A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, TOO, THAT THE NOTION THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN'T BE RECOGNIZED FOR HER BODY, I ACTUALLY WANT TO SAY THAT I'M VERY PROUD TO BE A WOMAN, AND I LIKE TO BE IDENTIFIED AS A WOMAN, AND I LIKE TO IDENTIFY ALL THE GAINS THAT WE HAVE MADE AS WOMEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE MADE AS WOMEN, SO I'M A LITTLE BIT PUT OFF BY THE NOTION.

I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN MAY BE PUT OFF BY THE NOTION THAT ESSENTIALLY SOMEHOW WE CAN'T BE IDENTIFIED THAT WAY, I'M IDENTIFIED CULTURALLY.

I'M SURFED BOY MY AGE AND AS A WOMAN.

SO THOSE MARKS SHOULD BE VIEWED A NEGATIVE BUT I THINK THEY SHOULD BE POSITIVE, I'M OPEN-MINDED TO THE TRANSGENDER ISSUE BUT NOT NOT RANGE MY GENETIC ADVANTAGE BEING A WOMAN.

>> I'M SORRY.

HOW IS ACCEPTING SOMEONE AND NOT DISCRIMINATING AGAINST SOMEONE SOMEHOW AN ATTACK UPON YOU AS A WOMAN?

>> TRULY, I'D LIKE TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR THAT DISCRIMINATING AGAINST PEOPLE IS JUST DISCRIMINATING AGAINST PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT BUILDING UP.

IN AN ACT, IT'S DRIVING US ALL DOWN TOGETHER.

AND SO I'M JUST NOT CLEAR HOW THAT HURTS YOU.

>> I'M LOOKING AT THE GLASS HALF FULL.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT TO SAY THAT I'M NOT IDENTIFIED AS A WOMAN, MY BODY IS NOT PART OF THAT DESCRIPTION TO ME, NOT ONLY IS IT NOTIN SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE, IT'S NOT EMOTIONALLY -- IT DOESN'T RESONATE WITH ME.

NOW, AGAIN I HAVE SEEN THE TRANSITION OF HOW WOMEN WENT FROM GIRD ELSE TO ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL THE PHYSICAL CHANGES THAT HAVE HAPPENED, AND I THINK I WANT TO CHAMPION AND CELEBRATE OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS WOMEN AND OPEN, EXPAND THE PIE TO INCLUDE CERTAINLY TRANSGENDER, BUT NOT NECESSARILY SHIFT.

>> I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO I THINK NOT WHAT HOLYOKE AND MILLS COLLEGE DID, IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND NEEDED, TRANSGENDER WOMEN, PEOPLE ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND COLLEGE IS ABOUT EXPLORATION OF SELF AND ABOUT DISCOVERING WHAT -- HOW YOU WANT TO STAND IN YOUR OWN SKIN, WHAT YOU -- HOW YOU WANT TO BUILD THE SOCIETY AROUND YOU, AND I THINK BY THEN MAKING THE POLICY CHANGE ALLOWS PEOPLE TO FEEL LIKE THEY MATTER, THAT THEIR LIVES MATTER, HOW THEY THINK MATTERS, AND HISTORICALLY TRANSGENDER PEOPLE ARE ON THE MARGINS OF SOCIETY, AND SO THIS ALLOWS THEM AT THESE PARTICULAR SCHOOLS TO FEEL LOOK THEY ARE ACCEPTED FOR WHO THEY ARE.

IN TERMS OF IDENTIFIERS PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SURF HOW THEY VIEW THEMSELVES, AND THE REST OF US ARE TO RESPECT THAT DECISION AND HOW THEY CHOOSE TO IDENTIFY WHAT PRONOUNCE THEY WANT TO USE, WHAT -- PROCEED NOUNS, WHETHER THEY WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED BY GENDER OR NOT, BUT I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE AS PEOPLE RESPECT WHAT THE CHOICES THAT WEISE INDIVIDUAL INDIVIDUALS SHOULD MAKE.

>> BONNIE: TWO WINS AND ONE LOSS.

THIS WEEK A UNANIMOUS PANEL OF JUDGES STRUCK DOWN A BAN ON SAME SEX MARRIAGES IN WISCONSIN AND INDIANA DECLARING THE LAWS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT A FEDERAL JUDGE IN LOUISIANA UPHELD THE STATE'’’S BAN ON GAY MARRIAGE.

IT WAS THE FIRST COURT LOSS FOR GO LGBTQ GROUPS FOLLOWING A LONG STRING OF VICTORIES.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES, ANALYSTS SAY GAY RIGHTS ARE ADVANCING WHILE WOMEN'’’S RIGHTS ARE EXPERIENCING DEFEATS.

COULD A REFRAMING OF THE MOVEMENT BE THE KEY TO ADVANCEMENT?

>> LGBTQ MOVEMENT TOOK A HESSON FROM THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WHICH IN PART, OF COURSE, IT WAS A LEGAL MOVEMENT WITH CIVIL RIGHTS BUT IN LARGE PART THIS WAS A MORAL RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT ABOUT THE DIGNITY OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND THE PERSONHOOD AND COMMUNITY HUE NANT HAVE AMERICANS I DO THINK THERE CAN BE A LESSON FROM THE SUCCESS OF THE LGBTQ MOVEMENT.

>> AFTER THIS SUMMER'’’S SUPREME COURT HOBBY LOBBY RULING, ACTIVIST AND SCHOLAR JAY MICHAELSON EXAMINED WOMEN ARE LOSING RIGHTS WHILE THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY IS GAINING.

>> HOBBY LOBBY BECAME ABOUT CONTRACEPTION INSTEAD OF DIGNITY AND EQUALITY OF ALL PEOPLE, INCLUDING WOMEN.

IT'’’S ABOUT LEGAL RIGHTS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT NOW WOMEN ARE SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL UNDER THE LAW WHERE THEIR EMPLOYERS CAN MAKE CERTAIN HEALTH CARE DECISIONS FOR THEM.

AS A MAN, THERE'’’S NOT A SINGLE HEALTH CARE DECISION THAT I HAVE THAT MY EMPLOYER GETS TO MAKE FOR ME.

>> MICHAEL >> MICHAELSON ATTENDED THE HOBBY LOBBY ORAL ARGUMENT AND SAYS HE OBSERVED TWO THINGS HE FOUND DISAPPOINTING.

>> ONE IS THAT IT WAS ALL MEN ON ONE SIDE AND THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SEEMED TO BE VOCALLY IN FAVOR OF THE WOMEN EMPLOYEES AT ISSUE IN THE CASE WERE THE THREE FEMALE JUSTICES.

THE SECOND DISPIRITING MOMENT WAS WHEN ANTHONY KENNEDY SAID THIS IS REALLY ABOUT ABORTION AND THAT'’’S WHEN WE KNEW THAT HOBBY LOBBY WAS GOING TO WIN, THE GOVERNMENT WAS GOING TO LOSE.

>> MICHAELSON SAYS THE WOMEN MOVEMENT FACES RESISTANCE DUE TO DIFFICULTY IN PUTTING FORTH A MESSAGE WOMEN'S HEALTH IS ABOUT IDENTITY AND DIGNITY AND THAT CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ARE IN AN IDEOLOGICAL BATTLE WITH LIBERAL WOMEN.

P. >> YOU'RE NOT GONNA FIND A WHOLE LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO ARE AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS.

YOU'RE NOT GONNA FIND A LOT OF LGBT PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND LGBTQ EQUALITY.

THERE ARE ACTUALLY WOMEN ON THE OTHER SIDE: SARA PALIN, MICHELLE BACHMAN, MANY, MANY OTHERS WHO CLAIM NOT TO BE FEMINISTS OR WHO ARE ANTI-CHOICE AND WHO TAKE A NUMBER OF POSITIONS THAT MANY IN THE SORT OF WOMEN'’’S EQUALITY WOMEN'’’S RIGHTS MOVEMENT WOULD CALL ANTI-WOMEN.

>> MICHAELSON SAYS HUMANIZING AN ISSUE MAKES IT RESONATE.

HE SAYS SHARING PERSONAL STORIES COULD RESULT IN MORE ACCEPTANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF SUCH A COMPLEX ISSUE.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, ABORTION IS RARELY A JOYFUL EXPERIENCE LIKE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IS.

NONETHELESS, THERE NEED TO BE STORIES OF TRIUMPH AND CHALLENGE AND STORIES THAT PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO FROM HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE UNAFRAID OF THE SHAMING THAT COMES FROM THE RIGHT.

>> WHETHER IT'’’S REFRAMING OR SHARING PERSONAL STORIES, A CHANGE IN PERSPECTIVE MAY BE WHAT THE WOMEN'’’S MOVEMENT NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> IT IS TRUE THAT I THINK WHAT GLORIA STEINEM SAID THAT FEMINISM AT ITS HEART IS HUMANISM ,AND YET THAT IDENTITY FRAME HAS NOT YET BEEN SUCCESSFULLY ADOPTED IN THIS STRUGGLE.

>> SO DO YOU AGREE, FIRST OF ALL, DANIELLE THAT LGBTQ MOVEMENT HAS MADE GAINS WHEREAS WOMEN, THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT CERTAINLY IN TERMS OF YOU GO THINGS LIKE ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH IS FALLING BACKWARDS?

>> I DO THINK THAT THE LGBTQ MOVEMENT HAS MADE INCREDIBLE GAINS AND, TO HIS POINT, JAY MICHAELSON'S POINT, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE STORIES, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE STORIES THAT WE HAVE LEARNED TO TELL FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, MY WIFE AND I GOT ENGAGED IN THE MARRIAGE EQUALITY FIGHT IN WASHINGTON, D.C., BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE US, WHO LOOK LIKE US, LEICHNER THAT WERE LESBIAN WEREN'T PART OF CONVERSATION AND WEREN'T PART OF THE IMAGES OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGE THAT WAS BEING SHOWN, AND SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO INVOKE EMPATHY AND HAVE EXPERIENCES OFY TO BRING THE STORY TO THE FOREFRONT.

>> THAT'S' GREAT STORY.

BUT HET ME ALSO SHUAI THAT KATE MICHAELMAN, HEAD OF SHE LEFT ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO BUT SHE YOU TALKEDY REPEATEDLY ABOUT HAVING THREE KIDS, BEING CATHOLIC, SO SHE HAD MORAL QUALMS ABOUT ABORTION, HER HUSBAND LEFT HER, SHE WAS PREGNANT WITH THE FOURTH, SHE COULD NOT SUPPORT THE THREE SHE HAD.

SWEETEN OUT AND TOLD THAT STORY A MILLION TIMES TO NATIONAL TV, IN BOOKS, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, AND THERE'S OTHER SO IT'S NOT AS IF THE STORIES AREN'T BEING TOLD.

BUT LET ME -- MICHAELSON SUGGESTS FRAMING IT AS THE LGBTQ MOVEMENT HAS DONE, AS A MATTER OF DIGNITY.

INSTEAD OF SAYING WOMEN NEED ACCESS TO ABORTION, JUST FRAME IT -- WOULD IT HELP THE MOVEMENT IF IT FRAMED IT AS A MATTER OF DIGNITY?

MY BODY IS -- YOU KNOW, MEN GET TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT MEDICALLY WITH THEIR BODIES WITH NO RESTRICTIONS.

BUT WOMEN DO NOT.

WHY -- WOULD THAT HELP?

>> I THINK BECAUSE FRANKLY SOCIETY DOES NOT TRUST WOMEN, WE DON'T TRUST WOMEN TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR BODIES, TO LEAD COMPANIES, TO BE HEADS OF HOUSEHOLDS.

WE JUST DON'T.

AND I THINK THAT THESE LAWS AND THE CONVERSATIONS THAT WE'RE HAVING IS ABOUT DIGNITY JUST AS WELL AS THE LGBTQ MOVEMENT SHIFTED THE CONVERSATION AROUND MARRIAGE EQUALITY AROUND LOVE AND FAMILY AND DIGNITY.

WE NEED TO SHIFT THE SAME CONVERSATION AROUND WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND WOMEN'S BODIES ABOUT DIGNITY AND RESPECT AND OWNERSHIP, RIGHT?

BECAUSE WHAT WE DID WITH THE HOBBY LOBBY CASE IS GIVE OWNERSHIP OF WOMEN'S BODIES AND CHOICES TO THEIR EMPLOYERS BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO FEEBLE IN ORDER TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS THEMSELVES.

>> BUT AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN STEEPED IN THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT WANTS SOMEONE WHO STARTED A CONSERVATIVE PUBLICATION FOR A LONG TIME, WHAT YOU DID RIGHT THERE IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY YOU'RE LOSING CONSERVATIVE WOMEN.

A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE WOMEN CAN GET BEHIND THE IDEA THAT MEN MAKE MORE THAN WOMEN AND IT'S UNFAIR.

BUT WHEN YOU START PUTTING THAT IN THE SAME CATEGORY OF ABORTION, THEN YOU START TO LOSE PEOPLE WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE ON YOUR SIDE.

>> THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT ABORTION.

>> THAT'S THE PROBLEM, THOUGH.

BUT THAT'S THE EXACT PROBLEM IS THAT THOUGH WE TALK ABOUT -- BUT IT'S NOT NUANCED.

P EYE WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT ABORTION, AND THE HOBBY LOBBY CASE WAS ABOUT A WOMAN BEING ABLE TO DECIDE THE TIMELINE WHEN SHE WANTED TO HAVE A FAMILY AND HAVE THE CONTRACEPTION IN ORDER TO DO SO.

>> IT'S NOT SIMPLY ABOUT ABORTION.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

YOU'RE SAYING THAT PROGRESSIVE WOMEN SHOULD JUST DROP THE ONLY WAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ONBOARD IS IF THEY DROP THE WHOLE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ISSUE, PERIOD.

>> NOT SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD DROP THE ISSUE OR GIVE UP THEIR VALUES IN ANYWAY.

>> HOW SHOULD THEY FRAME IT THEN.

>> >> I'M SAYING THEY WOULD BE BETTER OFF GETTING MORE CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ONBOARD IF THEY DIDN'T PUT THE TWO IN THE SAME CATEGORY AND PUT THEM IN THE SAME SENTENCE AND SAY IF YOU'RE NOT FOR THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS THEN YOU'RE AGAINST WOMEN'S RIGHTS, WHEREAS I THINK THAT THEY'RE ALL VERY SEPARATE ISSUES AND YOU COULD PROBABLY GET MORE WOMEN ONBOARD WITH THE OTHER.

>> THE HOBBY LOBBY CASE ALSO, JUST TO CLARIFY, COVERED 14 TYPES OF BIRTH CONTROL.

THEY DIDN'T COVER THE MORNING-AFTER PILL.

AND THAT ESSENTIALLY IS WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED HERE, IS THAT AS HAS AN ISSUE WITH SOME CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATIONS AND WOMEN ABOUT MORNING-AFTER PILL AND ABORTION.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

ALL FORMS OF CONTRACEPTION, THE SUPREME COURT CLARIFIED WITH THAT.

SECOND, I FAIL TO TEE IS NUANCE IN STEPPING IN AND VIOLATING A WOMAN'S RIGHTS WHEN SHE SAYS I'M GOING TO STOP THIS PREGNANCY AND TRY TO STOP HER.

JAY RAISES A NUMBER OF IMPORTANT POINTS THAT I AGREE WITH STRONGLY, BUT I DO THINK WE SHOULD ALSO BE AWARE THAT IT TAKES A WHITE MAN SO THAT WE LISTEN TO THEM.

>> TAKES, THE -- >> THE FACT THAT HE IS A WHITE MAN AND WE ARE LISTENING TO THAT AND TALKING ABOUT IT, BUT WANT IT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, THAT OFTEN BEE DEVALUE WOMEN E. SO MUCH THAT WE DON'T EVEN LET WOMEN SPEAK ABOUT WHAT'S BEST FOR THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT.

>> SO WE MAY MORE ATTENTION WHEN IT'S A MAN, WHITE MAN.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

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