HIBRI AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY... >> SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS AND IN THE MILITARY.

COLLEGES TRY TO TACKLE A PROBLEM THAT SOME RESEARCHERS SAY HAS REACHED EPIDEMIC LEVELS.

>> WHAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT?

IT IS A CRIME!

>> THEN... >> WE NEED TO PUT MILITARY JUSTICE IN THE HANDS OF TRAINED MILITARY PROSECUTORS WHO HAVE NO SKIN IN THE GAME.

[♪♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK AN INDEPTH EXPLORATION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT FROM PREVENTION TO REPORTING AND DISCIPLINE.

WE BEGIN ON AMERICA'S COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

COLLEGES CONTINUE TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FOLLOW RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE REPORT BY THE WHITE HOUSE TASK FORCE TO PROTECT STUDENTS FROM SEXUAL ASSAULT.

THE CAMPUS SEXUAL VIOLENCE ACQUIRES COLLEGES TO OFFER TRAINING AND EDUCATION TO INCOMING STUDENTS AND EMPLOYEES.

BUT RESEARCH FINDS AWARENESS PROGRAMS ARE NOT THAT EFFECTIVE IN CHANGING ATTITUDES OR BEHAVIOR.

>> CHANGE THE CULTURE.

AND THAT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT THING TO DO.

AND IT IS THE THING THAT WE MUST DO WITHIN THE COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

AND IT GYPS FROM THE VERY TOP.

AND IT DEPOSE THROUGH ALL OF THE FACULTY AND THE ADMINISTRATORS AND EVERYTHING, AND IT ALSO GOES TO EVERY INCOMING CLASS AND EVERY CLASS AS IT GOES ALONG.

AN AWARENESS WHAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT AND WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES.

IT IS A CRIME!

>> UNDER SCRUTINY IS HOW SCHOOLS INVESTIGATE AND PUNISH INITIATIVE PERPETRATORS.

SOME WANT TO SEE LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TAKEOVER THAT ROLE.

THE ACT WOULD AMONG REQUIRE COLLEGES TO CREATE UNIFORMED PROCESSES AND GIVE VICTIMS CONFIDENTIAL ADVISORS.

>> HAVE PEOPLE ON CAMPUS THAT ARE TRAINED SO THAT WHOEVER THE STUDENT NEEDS TO GO TO, THEY ARE NOT IN FAR REACH.

SO THAT IF A STUDENT NEEDS TO TALK TO A FACULTY MEMBER, MAYBE THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY WANT TO GO TO A TITLE 9 OFFICER.

MAYBE THEY WANT TO GO TO THEIR PROFESSOR.

>> RIGHT NOW THE CAMPUS REVIEW PROCESS IS DIFFERENT ACROSS THE BOARD.

THERE'S VERY LITTLE TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE HAVE A BILL TO PROFESSIONALIZE THAT PROCESS TO HAVE MINIMUM TRAINING AND ON-LINE CAMPUS SURVEYS SO PEOPLE CAN KNOW THE CLIMATE.

AND HAVE A RELATIONSHIP DEVELOP WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT SO IF A SURVIVOR WANTS TO GO TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT IS DECIDED HOW TO DO THAT.

>> WHEN SENATOR McCASKILL WHO DID A SURVEY ONE THINGS IT SHOWED IN 40% OF THE CASES IF AN ATHLETE AT THE UNIVERSITY HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF SEXUAL ASSAULT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING THE INVESTIGATION WAS THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT.

IT SHOULD AND MUST BE INVESTIGATED BY A DEPARTMENT THAT HAS THE TOOLS AND THE KNOW HOW AND THE ABILITY TO INVESTIGATE IT IMPARTIALLY.

>> SO ELLIE, IS CAMPUS ASSAULT MORE PREVALENT THAN IT USED TO BE?

OR ARE WE JUST HEARING MORE ABOUT IT.

>> WE DON'T KNOW BUT IT'S UNACCEPTABLE LEVEL.

>> NO QUESTION IT HAS EXISTED.

I DO NOT THINK IT'S NECESSARILY WORSE.

I BELIEVE THE MEDIA ALLOWED US TO GET MORE INTO THE ISSUE.

>> I THINK WE ARE SEEING A CULTURAL SHIFT.

WE HAVE YOUNG WOMEN MAKING THEIR VOICES HEARD AND FANTASTIC LEGISLATORS PASSING MAJOR PIECES OF LEGISLATION TO REGULATE SEXUAL ASSAULT.

>> WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT MORE AND IT'S IN THE MEDIA MORE TODAY.

>> THE FOUNDATION THE FEMINISM MAJORITY FOUNDATION HAS A HUGE CAMPUS OUTREACH.

HOW MANY COLLEGE WOMEN ARE YOU IN TOUCH WITH AT ONE TIME?

>> HUGE NUMBER WE ARE IN 45 STATES AND SEVERAL HUNDRED CAMPUSES.

AND THIS NO QUESTION IS A SMALL SCHOOL, BIG SCHOOL, IT IS A PROBLEM.

>> ARE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES REALLY EQUIPPED TO ADJUDICATE THESE CASES?

WHY DID IT EVER START THIS IS SOMETHING THAT UNLIKE ANY OTHER CRIME, SHOULDN'T GET REPORTED AND TURNED OVER TO THE POLICE?

>> WELL, THE COLLEGES SOME OF THEM FELT THEY HAD SOMETHING A STAKE THEY WANTED IT TO APPEAR THAT THE SCHOOL WAS TRANQUILL AND SAFE SO THEY WERE UNDER REPORTING.

NOW THERE'S LAWS THAT THEY MUST REPORT.

AND IN FACT, EVEN WITH THAT, IF A YOUNG WOMAN GOES TO A AUTHORITIES ON THAT CAMPUS SHE COULD BE TALKED OUT OF REPORTING.

THERE IS AN EFFORT, I THINK, TO SUE PRESS THE REAL NUMBERS.

-- SUPPRESS THE REAL NUMBERS.

BUT FOR SURE THERE IS A MOVEMENT ON CAMPUSES AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY SURVIVORS, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT IF YOU HAD BEEN ASSAULTED AND GONE TO SCHOOL AUTHORITIES COULD YOU HAVE BEEN TALKED OUT OF REPORTING IT?

>> NOT ME PERSONALLY.

MY FOCUS WOULD BE TO GO TO THE POLICE.

OFF CAMPUS.

I WOULD REPORT IT TO CAMPUS BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR STUDENTS ARE DOING AND SHOULD ADDRESS IT.

IF A FEMALE HAS BEEN ASSAULTED SHE NEEDS TO SAY WHO WITH IT WAS AND HE NEEDS TO BE PENALIZED WHETHER IT'S BEING TAKEN OFF THE CAMPUS AND NOT GOING BACK TO SCHOOL WHAT HAVE YOU.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOUNG WOMEN AND SOME YOUNG MENINO THAT IT IS A CRIME.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE REPORTED TO AUTHORITIES.

SCHOOLS ARE ABOUT MONEY.

BOOSTER CLUBS AND ATHLETES AND THINGS THAT THEY DO AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

ALL OF IT NEEDS TO BE CLEANED OUT PERSONALLY.

>> THE YOUNG WOMEN ON CAMPUS OR MEN WHO ARE ASSAULTED ON CAMPUS AND TRY TO GO TO THE POLICE, ARE THEY EVER TURNED BACK AND SAY NO, DEAL WITH YOUR COLLEGE ON THIS?

>> NO.

NO.

IF THEY GO TO THE POLICE -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS CONFUSING SOME OF THE SCHOOLS ARE AS BIG AS A CITY THEY HAVE THEIR OWN POLICE FORCE.

SO THERE IS A REASON THAT THE KIDS DON'T KNOW WHERE TO REPORT.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE YOUTH MOVEMENT ON CAMPUS IS DOING IS THEY ARE TRYING TO TELL YOUNG WOMEN WHAT ARE THEIR RIGHTS AND YOUNG MEN TO GET A RAIN KIT.

TO KNOW ABOUT -- RAPE KIT AND KNOW ABOUT TITLE 9 AND KNOW ABOUT THE SAFE CAMPUS ACT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT BUT THEY ARE BREAKING IT DOWN AND TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT A STUDENT KNOWS THEIR RIGHTS.

>> I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO TWO THINGS; IT COMES DOWN TO ACCOUNTABILITY AND AWARENESS.

I THINK BOTH OF THOSE ARE LACKING ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES TODAY.

ALL THE WAY UP THE CHAIN THROUGH LEADERSHIP AT THE COLLEGE AND TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THINGS THAT HAPPEN ON THEIR CAMPUSES.

AS WELL AS EDUCATING THEIR STUDENTS FROM EVERYTHING TO THE LAWS THAT IS YOUR ROUND SEXUAL ASSAULT AND THE REPORTING PROCEDURES AND THEN ALSO LIFESTYLE CHOICES LIKE ALCOHOL AND DRUGS AND WHERE THAT MAY LEAD PUTTING IN VERY UNFORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCES JUST SOME THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THOSE TWO THINGS NEED TO BE TALKED ABOUT MORE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

>> AND YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUNG WOMEN MOBILIZING.

AND B, IS THE MADAMING, TOO, SHOULD THE MESSAGE ALSO BE DO NOT GO TO A FRAT PARTY AND GET DRUNK AND EXPECT THAT YOU WILL WALKOUT SAFELY BECAUSE YOU ARE PUTTING YOURSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE YOUR CHANCES ARE NOT GOOD?

>> WE HAVE BEEN SEEING MANY INSTANCES OF YOUNG WOMEN MOBILIZING.

EMMA AT COLUMBIA WHO CARRIED THE MATTRESS AROUND CAMPUS IN PROTEST OF WHAT SHE EXPERIENCED WHICH ENDED UP BECOMING A NATIONAL MOVEMENT WITH WOMEN BEGAN CARRYING MATTRESSES.

THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLE EXERCISE OF FREE SPEECH THAT HELPED PUT THIS ISSUE ON THE MAP.

>> YET COLUMBIA TURNED HER AWAY ANYWAY.

WHAT DOES THAT DO?

AND THE UVA RAP ALLEGATIONS THAT WERE IN THE ROLLING STONE ARTICLE THAT GOT TAKEN APART UPON EXAMINATION, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO YOUNG WOMEN WHO MAY BE ASSAULTED AND SAY, GOD, IF I TRY TO REPORT SOMETHING LIKE THIS MAY HAPPEN?

>> COLUMBIA DID NOT FIND IN HER FAVOR BUT WHEN SHE GRADUATED AND WALKED ACROSS THE STAGE SHE GOT A STANDING OVATION.

AND THAT SAYS A LOT.

I THINK OUR COUNTRY IS TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO BEST HANDLE THIS AND WE ARE GRAPPLING WITH IT RIGHT NOW.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHETHER THESE TWO INCIDENTS ARE GOING TO MAKE IT TOUGHER ON YOUNG WOMEN TO REPORT ASSAULTS OR YOUNG MEN?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

AND THE REASON I DON'T THINK SO IS THAT IF ANYTHING, IT RAISES MORE AWARENESS OF THE PROBLEM.

BUT, BY THE WAY, THESE INSTANCES OBVIOUSLY ARE JUST THE TIP OF AN ICEBURG.

WE LOOK AT THE MAGNITUDE OF THE PROBLEM.

AND THERE HAS BEEN CONVICTIONS.

I DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO THINK THERE HAS NOT BEEN HARSH PENALTIES.

THERE HAS BEEN IN SOME CASES.

IN FACT, SOME UNIVERSITIES HAVE PAID HUGE FINES.

WE ARE TAKING OVER $1 MILLION SETTLEMENTS AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS SOME ARE CONFIDENTIAL.

AND THERE IS SOME JUSTICE THAT IS OCCURRING.

AND I THINK MORE WILL OCCUR AS MORE WOMEN REPORT, AS MORE KNOW THEIR RIGHTS.

>> WHY ARE WE -- YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT WHY IS IT THAT THE HUGE SEVEN-FIGURE SETTLEMENTS ARE GETTING APPROVED AND YET THE ONES GETTING ALL THE MEDIA ATTENTION ARE THE ONES THAT ARE NOT WHERE THE ASSAULT VICTIM IS NOT -- >> WELL, IT'S MAYBE IT'S THE SENSATIONALISM OF THE MEDIA.

BUT THE REALITY IS -- >> HAVE YOU SEEN MUCH REPORTING OF THE SETTLEMENTS?

>> NO, YOU HAVE TO ALMOST LOOK FOR THEM AND YOU ARE SURPRISED.

>> WHY ISN'T YOUR -- >> WE ARE TRYING TO GET IT OUT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS HAPPENING.

>> TELL US HERE ABOUT THESE BIG SETTLEMENTS.

>> AT THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO THERE WAS A HUGE SETTLEMENT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT THERE WAS THE TOP LOST THEIR JOBS.

AND I COULD GO ON MORE.

THE UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT ANOTHER SETTLEMENT.

BUT I THINK -- >> TOP WOMEN'S BASKETBALL SCHOOL.

>> TOP WOMEN'S BASKETBALL SCHOOL.

THEY HAD A PROBLEM.

AND THE TWO KIDS WENT TO COURT.

AND THAT SETTLEMENT WAS $2.5 MILLION.

SO BASICALLY, THAT IS WHY I WANTED TO PUT THAT IN.

IT'S NOT LIKE THERE ARE NOT SERIOUS CASES.

AND RIGHT NOW, THERE'S OVER 10,000, I THINK IT'S 10,000, TITLE 9 COMPLAINTS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF SCHOOLS BEING INVESTIGATED.

SO I THINK THERE WILL BE MORE PENALTIES AND THE SCHOOLS FOR THEIR OWN SAKE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE THIS ON.

IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

>> WE ARE HEARING MORE ABOUT THAT.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO HEAR THE STORIES ABOUT PERPETRATORS CONVICTED.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE.

BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO SEE BOTH.

WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT A SETTLEMENT FROM AN ATTORNEY'S POINT FOR ME, I THINK ABOUT WELL, YOU GOT CASH AND MOVING ON.

I DO NOT MEAN TO SOUND BLATANT BUT IT'S MORE IMPORTANT AS A WOMAN AND SOMEONE WHO WAS ASSAULTED THAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THIS PERSON GETS PUNISHED.

WHATEVER HE DESERVES TO GET.

AS WELL AS THE EDUCATION YOU TALKED ABOUT ON CAMPUS WE NEED TO LOOK AT PARENTS.

YES, THEY ARE ADULTS BECAUSE THEY GO OFF AT 18 AND LIVE ON THEIR OWN BUT PARENTS NEED TO BE MORE INVOLVED AND BE INVOLVED IN THEIR LIVES WHILE ON CAMPUS.

IF WE HAD MORE ADULTS, PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS, GUARDIANS IN AND OUT OF THAT AREA, I THINK WE MIGHT HAVE MORE CONSCIOUSNESS OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

>> ARE THERE DATA TO SHOW THAT YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE MORE INVOLVED WITH THEIR PARENTS LIKE BECAUSE A LOT OF THE COLLEGE KIDS I KNOW ARE TEXTING AND PHONE CALLING AND E-MAILING.

AND MANY TIMES EVERYDAY.

OR LESS LIKELY TO BE ASSAULTED.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THERE ARE STATISTICS ON THAT.

FROM A PARENT'S PERSPECTIVE THE MORE YOU ARE INVOLVED I'M SAYING THAT SCHOOLS NEED TO KNOW IF YOU ARE PAYING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND WRITING A CHECK THEY NEED TO KNOW SOMETHING HAPPENS TO MY KID YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR IT.

>> IT'S GOOD TO HAVE PARENTAL INVOLVE.

AND I'M ENCOURAGED BY PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE TO DEAL WITH IT.

GETTING GREATER FUNDING TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS OFFICE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

SO THAT THEY CAN INVESTIGATE AND REALLY ENFORCE TITLE 9 ON CAMPUSES.

AND ASSIGNING CONFIDENTIAL COUNSELORS TO WOMEN SO THEY ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS PROCESS.

>> AND THAT IS SOMETHING NEW THAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS ASSIGNING COUNSELORS?

>> THAT IS SOMETHING THAT STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE AVAILABLE TO THEM IF THEY ARE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS.

I THINK CONFIDENTIALITY IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS IS A SENSITIVE ISSUE AND WHY VICTIMS DON'T WANT TO COME FORWARD.

WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT MEDIA AWARENESS A LOT OF VICTIMS DO NOT WANT THEIR STORIES OUT THERE.

THEY WANT WHATEVER OUT COME OF THE LAWSUIT AND MOVE ON.

THEY MIGHT NOT WANT IT TO BE A NATIONAL HEADLINE IN THE NEWS SO THEY KEEP IT FROM THE MEDIA.

>> ALL RIGHT.

LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

FOLLOW ME @BONNIEERBE.

FROM SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS TO THE MILITARY.

DESPITE MILITARY REFORM, SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS FACE RETALIATION IF IT THEY REPORT CRIMES ACCORDING TO HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH.

RESEARCHERS FOUND QUOTE IF YOU COME FORWARD AND REPORT SEXUAL ASSAULT, YOU'RE 12 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO FACE RETALIATION THAN YOU ARE TO SEE YOUR PERPETRATOR CONVICTED.

>> LAST YEAR ALONE THERE WERE 20,000 CASES OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, RAPE AND UNWANTED SEXUAL CONTACTMENT AND 75% OF THE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE MILITARY JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH RETALIATION.

62% OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO WERE RAPED WERE RETALIATED AGAINST.

>> THE DEPARTMENT REPORTS THAT SEXUAL ASSAULTS ARE DOWN AND REPORTING IS UP.

BUT SENATOR GILLIBRAND SAYS DATA DO NOT INCLUDE ASSAULTS AGAINST MILITARY SPOUSES OR CIVILIANS WHO LIVE OR WORK NEAR MILITARY FACILITIES.

IT'S DISTORTED.

>> THERE ARE 52 RAPES A DAY AND THAT IS FAR TOO MANY AND THE NUMBERS THEY CITE ARE THE SAME AS 2010.

I DO NOT SEE THE KIND OF REFORM AND THE KIND OF PROGRESS THAT WE NEED TO SEE.

I THINK YOU TAKE THE DECISION MAKING OUT OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WHERE THE PERCEPTION IS THAT JUSTICE IS NOT POSSIBLE AND GIVE THAT AUTHORITY TO TRAINED MILITARY PROSECUTORS PEOPLE WILL HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE IN THE SYSTEM.

>> REPRESENTATIVE SANCHEZ WANTS COMMANDERS HELD RESPONSIBLE.

>> I'M TALKING ABOUT HOLDING THE COMMANDING OFFICER FOR THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF EACH AND EVERYONE OF THOSE SOLDIERS.

AND IF HE OR SHE IS GOOD AT THEIR JOB, THEY WILL ENSURE THAT THERE IS REDRESS, THAT THERE IS PROSECUTION, THAT THERE IS AN EVIDENCE GATHERING PROCESS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE IS PUT A LOT OF THOSE THINGS IN PLACE FOR THE COMMANDING OFFICER TO BE ABLE TO DO THE JOB THE RIGHT WAY.

AND IF HE OR SHE CAN STILL NOT DO IT, I DO NOT WANT THEM COMMANDING.

>> SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS NOT JUST A PROBLEM FOR WOMEN.

IN THE MALE MILITARY, MORE MEN THAN WOMEN ARE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT BUT A HIGHER RATE OF WOMEN ARE ATTACKED.

SO AMBER, ARE YOU A RETIRED HELICOPTER PILOT, IN THE MILITARY, DO YOU THINK THE MILITARY IS DOING A BETTER JOB NOW THAN, SAY, IN THE DAYS OF TAIL HOOK, THE FIRST MAJOR MEDIA EXPOSURE OF SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY GOING ON?

>> THE MILITARY HAS MADE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN TERMS OF COMBATING SEXUAL ASSAULTS AND THE NUMBERS DO NOT LIE.

IN 2014 THE SURVEY FOUND THAT 18900 MILITARY MEMBERS WERE VICTIMS OF UNWANTED SEXUAL CONTACT.

AND THAT IS DOWN 27% FROM 2012.

SO THAT IS PROGRESS.

THE MILITARY IS TAKING SIGNIFICANT STEPS TO FIX THIS.

BECAUSE WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS WHEN THEIR SOLDIERS ARE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT IT HURTS MILITARY READINESS.

WE NEED TO FIX THIS AND THEY ARE TAKING STEPS TO ENSURE THAT HAPPENS.

>> EVERYBODY AGREE?

ANYONE DISAGREE?

>> I DO NOT AGREE.

I THINK IT MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE COMMAND CHAIN OF THE COMMAND.

BECAUSE THE KIDNAPPEDDER IS -- COMMANDER IS AN ABUSER OR FRIEND OF THE ABUSER.

IN THAT SENSE WE HAVE HAD HEARING UPON HEARING THAT SAYS THE MILITARY MUST DO MORE.

AND RIGHT NOW, THE UNDER REPORTING IN THE MILITARY IS HIGH BECAUSE OF FEAR OF RETALIATION.

AND STUDIES SHOW THAT RETALIATION IS IN THE 60 PERCENTILES.

IT IS NOT A SOLVED PROBLEM THAT IS WHY WOMEN IN CONGRESS ARE PUSHING FOR STRICTDER RULES.

>> CAN I RESPOND?

FIRST OF ALL IT'S COMPLETELY SPECULATIVE AND UNFOUNDED TO SAY THAT A COMMANDER IS THE ABUSER OR THE FRIEND OF AN ABUSER.

THESE ARE PROFESSIONALS IN THEIR JOB.

THERE IS NOTHING SAYING IF YOU TAKE COMMAND AUTHORITY AWAY FROM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND THAT VICTIMS ARE GOING TO FEEL MORE WILLING TO COME FORWARD AND STATE THEIR CASE AND SAY WHAT HAPPENED OR THAT IT'S GOING TO FIX MILITARY SEXUAL ASSAULTS BECAUSE OF A CIVILIAN PROSECUTOR VERSUS CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS A CULTURAL CHANGE AND WE'RE SEEING THAT HAPPEN.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME.

>> BECAUSE WOMEN ARE 15% OF THE SERVICES RIGHT NOW, SO YOU WERE AMONG A MUCH SMALLER GROUP OF YOUR GENDER COLLEAGUES THAN MEN WERE, WERE YOU PERSONALLY AWARE OF ANY SITUATIONS WHERE SOMEBODY A WOMAN WAS ASSAULTED BY A MALE COMMANDER OR FRIEND OF THE CO AND HAD A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>> NO.

AND ACTUALLY THE MILITARY HAS TAKEN STEPS TO PREVENT THAT.

I WAS IN ONE OF THE UNITS THAT ONE OF THE COMBAT ARMED UNITS THAT ONLY ALLOWS FEMALES IN BIG PICTURE MILITARY WIDE A MALE-DOMINATED I WAS IN MORE BECAUSE OF MY SPECIALTY AND MY JOB.

BUT WHAT THE MILITARY HAS DONE TO ENSURE THERE ARE THE SAFE MEASURES FOR PEOPLE WHO DO COME FORWARD AND REPORT THEY HAVE VICTIM ADVOCATES.

AND THEY HAVE SEXUAL ASSAULT RESPONSE COORDINATOR THAT ARE COMPLETELY CONFIDENTIAL AND A LOT OF COMMANDERS WITH A SOLDIER IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND THAT HAS COME FORWARD THEY WILL RECOMMEND TO THAT SOLDIER TO GO TO EITHER THE VICTIMS ADVOCATE OR THE RESPONSE COORDINATOR.

BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY MIGHT BE BETTER AT HANDLING IT.

AND ALSO THE VICTIM HAS THE CHOICE TO DO A REPORTED OR UNREPORTED FILING OF WHAT HAPPENED.

WHICH MEANS ONE IS COMPLETELY CONFIDENTIAL AND THEY GET TO PICK AND CHOOSE IF THE COMMAND HAS ANY SLOFLMENT.

AND THE OTHER THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS INVOLVED.

IT'S UP TO THE VICTIM TO MAKE THAT CHOICE.

>> I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT CONGRESS WOMAN SANCHEZ AND SENATOR GILLIBRAND ARE ON DIFFERENT SIDES ABOUT TAKING IT OUT OF THE MILITARY COMMAND.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, I THINK -- >> EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE BOTH DEMOCRATS.

>> I LISTENED TO EVERYBODY.

WHAT I'M HEARING WE CAN AGREE THAT WE NEED TO PROFESSIONALIZE THIS PROCESS AND AGREE THAT WHEN THE BRAVE WOMEN ARE NOT PROTECTED THAT THAT IS A MAJOR ISSUE.

>> AND MEN.

>> AND MEN.

>> THE RATES ARE HIGHER AGAINST WOMEN BUT THE NUMBERS ARE HIGHER AGAINST MEN.

>> IT WOULD SEEM TO ME LEAVING IT IN THE HANDS A COMMANDER AND WITH THAT THE ONLY RECOURSE IT WOULD SEEM THAT MAY NOT KEEP OUR WOMEN SAFE IN THE MILITARY.

AND SO IT SEEMS THAT SENATOR GILLIBRAND'S IDEA OF TAKING IT OUT OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WOULD BE A LOGICAL STEP.

BUT SANCHEZ WANTS TO PUT THE EMPHASIS OPPORTUNITY HOLDING THE KIDNAPPEDDERS ACCOUNTABLE.

I DO NOT SEE THE TWO AS BEING EXCLUSIVE.

>> I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ISSUE BE REMOVED FROM THE MILITARY THEY ARE CAPABLE OF HANDLING IT.

IT IS A MATTER OF INFORMING PEOPLE OF WHAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE.

AND NOT BEING HUSHED DOWN FOR IT BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU WILL BE REPRIMANDED OR TREATED DIFFERENTLY AS A RESULT OF REPORTING IT.

I MEAN THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT TO ADDRESS BUT I DO NOT THINK REMOVING IT FROM THE UCLJ IS GOING TO BE A GOOD THING.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE ONE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WAY SCHOOLS HANDLE AND IT AND THE WAY THE MILITARY HANDLED IT, THE MILITARY HAS A JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL'S OFFICE WHICH CAN THROW PEOPLE IN JAIL AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT THE SCHOOLS DO NOT HAVE.

>> ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE MILITARY IS IF THE COMMANDER DOES NOT WANT TO REFER IT TO THE AUTHORITIES LIKE A JAG, IT DOES NOT GET REFERRED.

WE ARE -- TAKING IT -- >> EVEN WITH THE CONFIDENTIAL COUNSELOR?

>> YES.

BECAUSE BASICALLY THE COMMANDER MAKES THE DECISION.

AND WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS IT SHOULD NOT BE THE COMMANDER OF THAT UNIT WHICH HAS A LOT OF PRESSURE.

>> THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY 100% TRUE.

THE COMMANDER CAN ADVISE THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL THE LAWYER, THE PROSECUTOR.

THEY CAN ADVISE THEM AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE FACTS AND WHAT HAPPENED AND TOGETHER THEY MAKE A DECISION WHETHER OR NOT TO PROSECUTE.

UNDER THE CODE OF JUSTICE IT'S STRICTER THAN IF YOU GET PROSECUTED IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD.

WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT GET PROSECUTED BY A CIVILIAN LAWYER THERE'S GOING TO BE HIGHER NUMBERS OF PROSECUTION?

THAT IS INCORRECT.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW WHETHER CIVILIAN VERSUS MILITARY.

TAKING IT OUT OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND TO KEEP IT TO ANOTHER MILITARY FUNCTION.

WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO IS TAKE IT OUT OF THE UNIT SO THERE COULD BE A MORE OBJECTIVE THING.

AND LET'S BE REAL HERE.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHEN MYSELF INCLUDED THE TERM OUT OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND I THINK REFER TO GO TO THE LOCAL DA.

>> IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT.

>> THERE IS THAT OPTION OF NOT GOING THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.

THE VICTIM HAS THE OPTION TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT THEY WANT THEIR FILE.

IT IS TRUE.

I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IT.

THE MILITARY.

THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE DOES NOT APPLY TO THE BRANCH BUT THE MILITARY AS A WHOLE.

YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT IT COMPETELY CONFIDENTIAL WHICH MEANS YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND NEVER FINDS OUT.

AND IF THEY GO TO THE COMMANDER I TALKED TO MILITARY MEMBERS WHO SAY AS COMMANDERS, I WANT MY SOLDIER TO GO THROUGH THAT SEXUAL ASSAULT RESPONSE COORDINATOR BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THAT VICTIM.

>> BUT THE COMMANDER STILL KNOWS WHETHER -- >> OF COURSE THEY KNOW.

>> THAT IS IF THE VICTIM CAME FORWARD TO THE COMMANDER.

>> LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: WHY IS THERE SUCH A HIGH LEVEL OF RETALIATION?

AND SO LITTLE REPORTING?

SO LITTLE REPORTING BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF RETALIATION.

I MEAN COME ON.

THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD.

AND MOST PEOPLE WILL ADMIT TO THAT.

THE HEARINGS HAVE BEEN OUTRAGEOUS.

>> THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER.

AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

[♪♪♪] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

[♪♪♪]