>> Announcer: FUNDING FOR TO THE CONTRARY PROVIDED BY THE OAK FOUNDATION, THE COLCOM FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY.••.

FIRST, THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES BETWEEN TRUMP AND THE CLINTONS.

THEN, SEXUAL ASSAULT ON RELIGIOUS CAMPUSES.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES: FEMINISM- IS IT A MOVEMENT OR A BRAND?

[♪♪♪] HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WOMEN AND THE ELECTIONS: REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE DONALD TRUMP CALLED A GROUP OF WOMEN UP TO THE PODIUM AT A RALLY THIS WEEK TO MAKE THE POINT HE DOESN'T HAVE A WOMAN PROBLEM.

HOWEVER, HIS ATTACKS AGAINST NEW MEXICO'S REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ AND DEMOCRATIC SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN OF MASSACHUSETTS SUGGEST ANOTHER STORY.

AND TRUMP AIDE PAUL MANFORT TOLD THE HUFFINGTON POST CHOOSING A MINORITY OR A WOMAN FOR VP WOULD BE SEEN AS PANDERING AND THEREFORE NOT THE BEST MOVE FOR THE CANDIDATE.

MEANWHILE TRUMP CONTINUES TO SLAM DEMOCRATIC FRONT-RUNNER HILLARY CLINTON CALLING HER OUT AS AN ENABLER OF HER HUSBAND PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON'S INFIDELITY.

AND RAISING ISSUES FROM 20 YEARS AGO.

AND ON INSTAGRAM THIS WEEK TRUMP POSTED A PICTURE OF PRESIDENT CLINTON SMOKING A CIGAR WITH THE VOICES OF TWO WOMEN WHO HAD ACCUSED HIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND.

SO CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON WILL TRUMP'S ATTACKS AGAINST THE RAISING OF SCANDALS THAT TOOK PLACE TWO DECADES AGO WILL THEY WORK TO TURN YOUNG PEOPLE AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT AROUND BACK THEN?

>> BONNIE, SINCE WHEN CAN YOU SHAME A WOMAN ABOUT PENNING HER HUSBAND'S INFIDELITIES ON HER?

I HOPE NEVER.

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT THERE IS SOME ACCUSATIONS THAT HILLARY HELPED HARM THE WOMEN THAT MADE THE ACCUSATIONS.

SO I THINK IT'S PERFECTLY FINE FOR TRUMP TO BRING UP THE ACCUSATIONS.

>> TRUMP CAMPAIGNS DIRTY TO THE POINT YOU MIGHT SAY HE IS RUNNING FOR BIGOT IN CHIEF.

I WILL OBSERVE THAT I AM NOT SURPRISED THREE OF FOUR WOMEN ARE TURNED OFF BY HIM.

>> I DO NOT THIS' GOING TO MATTER.

I THINK HILLARY HAS A PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH YOUNG VOTERS.

>> HOW BIG IS IT?

IN A MATCHUP AGAINST HIM HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH EVERYBODY JUST ABOUT EXCEPT WHITE MALES?

UNEDUCATED WHITE MALES?

>> I THINK HILLARY SUFFERS A GREATER DEFICIT BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN FRANKLY FOR HER UNLIKABILITY.

I THINK A MALE GETS AWAY WITH MORE AND DONALD TRUMP GETS AWAY WITH MORE BECAUSE WE KNOW WHO HE IS AND HE HAS BEEN THIS PERSON FOR 25 YEARS.

>> YOUR NOTION THAT SOMEHOW IT'S FAIR GAME TO ATTACK HILLARY BECAUSE OF BILL'S INFIDELITIES BECAUSE SOMEHOW SHE ENABLED WOMEN -- NOT ENABLED WOMEN -- BUT LASHED OUT AGAINST WOMEN OR DID SOMETHING TO THOSE WOMEN.

BEFORE YOU THROW THAT OUT AGAIN, WHICH IS WHAT TRUMP DOES HE THROWS IT OUT AND BACKS IT UP WITH NOTHING.

WHEN YOU THROW IT OUT, SEEMS TO ME YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO BACK IT UP WITH WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

FACTS.

>> MOST -- I DON'T KNOW HOW HE IS DOING AMONG MILLENNIAL VOTERS ONE TENDS TO THINK HIS SUPPORT IS FROM WHITE MALES WHO ARE OLDER THAN THAT.

BUT HE HAS HIS OWN SCANDAL GOING ON.

HE IS MARRIED TO A WOMAN WHO POSED NUDE FOR A MAJOR MAGAZINE.

IS THAT -- PLUS ALL HIS INFIDELITIES AND HIS DIVORCES.

WHICH IS MORE OF A TURN OFF TO YOUNG PEOPLE?

>> THINK WHEN YOU THINK HE WHICH I WAS IN COLLEGE AND CLINTON WAS RUNNING AND THERE WERE A LOT OF SCANDALS IN THAT ADMINISTRATION, AND WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, AND THE WHOLE YOU KNOW, DID I INHALE, THAT WOULD NOT BE SHOCKING TODAY.

I THINK WE HAVE BECOME A HARDER SOCIETY TO SHOCK.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THE SCANDALS ARE REALLY GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

AND I DO NOT THINK TRUMP'S WIFE POSING NAKED IN A MAGAZINE IS THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

>> YOU DO NOT THINK IT IS A BIG DEAL TO HAVE A FIRST LADY WHOSE NUDE PICTURES WILL BE PROJECTED OVER THE WORLD CONSTANTLY WHEN SHE IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE?

CALL ME OLD-FASHIONED BUT I THINK THAT WOULD FORGET THE CANDIDATE BUT ON THAT BASIS ALONE, I WOULD NEVER VOTE FOR A MALE OR FEMALE POUR PRESIDENT.

>> I THINK PEOPLE ARE WELL AWARE OF TRUMP AS A REALITY STAR AND THAT HE HAS THIS GLAMOROUS WIFE AND SHE WAS A FORMER MODEL.

AS FAR AS SHOCKING VOTERS AND SWAYING THEM, I DO NOT THINK IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

>> HER NUDE PHOTOS IS NO BIG DEAL AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT MEN GETTING VOTED FOR, SCOTT BROWN WENT AND GOT ELECTED SENATOR AFTER HE POSED NUDE.

AND HE WENT SO FAR AS TO MOVE TO TRY TO TAKE OFFICE IN ANOTHER STATE, TOO.

TALK ABOUT MALE ENTITLE.

VERSUS THE STANDARDS WE PUT ON WOMEN.

THAT IS NOT A BIG DEAL AT ALL.

THE REALITY IS THAT HILLARY CLINTON IS HELD TO MUCH HIGHER STANDARDS BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN.

THAT THAT IS NOT FAIR AND THAT DONALD TRUMP IS DEEPLY SEXIST AND HE HAS A LOT OF PROBLEMS COMING.

>> WHAT ABOUT HIS ATTACKS ON ELIZABETH WARREN AND GOVERNOR MARTINEZ?

IS HE SINGLE-HANDEDLY UNDOING ALL THE PROGRESS THE REPUBLICAN HAS MADE WITH WOMEN IN THE LAST 20 YEARS?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT HE IS UNDOING IT AND I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE DONE THAT WELL IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.

>> WHITE WOMEN.

BUSH WON WHITE WOMEN VOTES MARRIED WHITE WOMEN BOTH TIMES THAT HE RAN.

>> HE DID.

BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THAT IS GOING TO BE WHAT SAVES TRUMP OR NOT.

I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT YOUNG VOTERS IN TERMS ARE WE TALKING 18-30 FOR ME, FRANKLY, RELIVING '92 AND '94 I AM NOT INTERESTED.

VINCE FOSTER AND TALKING ABOUT INVESTIGATIONS AND THE F.B.I.

I MEAN, I AM TIRED OF IT.

IT FEELS LIKE GROUND-HOG DAY TO ME.

>> AND HILLARY ALSO HAS A WOMAN PROBLEM SHE IS UNPOPULAR WITH WOMEN PARTICULARLY YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE GOING TOWARDS BERNIE.

SO YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS IS A -- >> NOT DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.

SHE IS VERY POPULAR WITH -- >> AS UNPOPULAR AS DONALD TRUMP WITH WOMEN.

>> I DO NOT THINK THAT IS ACCURATE.

>> AND I THINK THERE IS ANOTHER THING THAT YOUNGER WINDSHIELD-WIPER OPPOSE AND THAT IS THE WAY IN WHICH HILLARY AND SOME FEMINISTS TALK TO YOUNG WOMEN YOU HAVE TO GET BEHIND HILLARY, THE SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL IF YOU DO NOT SUPPORT HILLARY THIS IS LANGUAGE THAT YOUNG WOMEN DO NOT LIKE.

THIS IS THE REASON FOR FEMINISM.

I AM AN INDIVIDUAL I CAN MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS.

AND I THINK THEY ARE OFFENDED BY THAT LANGUAGE.

>> ELEANOR TALK ME THROUGH THIS.

WHEN I TALK TO DEMOCRATS SAY THEY SAY THE TRUMP GETTING AHEAD IN THE POLLS, OF HILLARY, NATIONAL POLLS, MEANS NOTHING IF YOU LOOK AT THE ELECTORAL MAP THERE IS NO WAY THAT HE CAN WIN.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME?

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING OFF THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS.

BUT IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE THAT THE ELECTORAL MAP FAVORS DEMOCRATS AND IT FAVORS DEMOCRATS BECAUSE OF SOCIAL ISSUES AND BECAUSE REPUBLICANS FRANKLY HAVE BEEN IN POWER MORE THAN DEMOCRATS AND LOOK AT THE ECONOMY THEY HAVE TO SHOW FOR IT.

IT DOES SEEM TO ME THAT, YEAH, IF YOU LOOK AT LAST, LAST ELECTION'S ELECTORAL COLLEGE WE ARE DOING GREAT.

HOWEVER, WHERE DO THE NUMBERS COME FROM?

WHICH LEAVES THEM EQUAL IN POPULAR VOTE.

WHAT IS OVER DONE IN THE SOUTH WHERE REPUBLICANS ARE, OF COURSE, EXPECTED ALWAYS TO WINNIE WAY THAT IS ONE THING.

AND I HAVE NOT SEEN THE ANALYSIS ONE NEEDS TO SEE OF WHERE THESE NUMBERS ARE TO SAY THAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD RELAX.

I DO NOT THINK IT'S TIME TO RELAX AT ALL.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> I STRONGLY AGREE WITH THAT.

DONALD TRUMP IS A FASCIST.

AND I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

IT WAS A MISTAKE FOR EXAMPLE WHEN HUFFINGTON POST DECIDED TO PUT HIM IN THE ENTERTAINMENT SECTION RATHER THAN THE POLITICS SECTION BECAUSE HE IS SAYING OUTRAGEOUS THINGS DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD SAY THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS COUNTRY COULD ELECT THIS MAN.

THE COUNTRY COULD ELECT THIS MAN.

AND SO WE NEED TO TAKE THE THREAT SERIOUSLY.

>> CLOSING THOUGHTS?

>> I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP DEFINITELY CAN WIN.

I THINK HE PUTS STATES IN IN PLAY.

I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE TO GET THE MAJORITY OF THE BASE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY YOU HAVE TO ENSURE THAT YOU DON'T GET ALL OF YOU.

IF YOU DON'T -- BLACKS DO NOT COME OUT IN PHILADELPHIA OR THE SUBURBS AS MUCH, PENNSYLVANIA COULD GO HIS WAY.

IF BLACKS DO NOT COME OUT AS MUCH FOR HILLARY IN IN OHIO, OHIO CAN GO HIS WAY.

I THINK HE HAS A PATH TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE.

FROM CAMPAIGNS TO CAMPUSES.

HOW CAN RELIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES BALANCE THEIR SPIRITUAL MISSION WITH ATHLETICS, ETHICS CODES, AND FINDING JUSTICE FOR WOMEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ON CAMPUS.

YES, IT HAPPENS EVEN AT RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS.

ART BRILES, THE FOOTBALL COACH OF THE NATION'S LARGEST BAPTIST SCHOOL, BAYLOR UNIVERSITY WAS FIRED FOR HIS HANDLING OF SEVERAL SEXUAL ASSAULT ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIS PLAYERS.

THE UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT, KEN STARR WAS DEMOTED AS WELL.

BAYLOR WAS UNDER MOUNTING PRESSURE FROM CLAIMS THE INSTITUTION CONSIDERED THE FOOTBALL COACH UNTOUCHABLE.

AN ESPN REPORT SAYS BRILES AND STARR FAILED TO INVESTIGATE CHARGES OF RAPES COMMITTED AGAINST STUDENTS BY PLAYERS, DESPITE THE UNIVERSITY'S OBLIGATION TO DO SO UNDER FEDERAL LAW.

COMPLICATING MATTERS IS AN HONOR CODE THAT DISCOURAGES STUDENTS FROM TALKING ABOUT SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE.

TARGETS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT MAY BE LESS INCLINED TO STEP FORWARD IF DOING SO MEANS THEY MUST FIRST ADMIT TO VIOLATING THAT HONOR CODE.

IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED AT BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY, WHERE A DOZEN STUDENTS WHO REPORTED RAPE SAID THEY WERE INVESTIGATED OR PUNISHED FOR HONOR CODE VIOLATIONS.

SO I HEARD A STINGING COMMENTARY BY A SPORTS COMMENTTATER NO LESS SAYING KEN STAR WHO SPENT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND HAS PUBLICLY MARGINALLY REGRETTED HOW VIGOROUSLY HE PURSUED BILL CLINTON FOR HIS INFIDELITY 20 YEARS BUT FAILED TO INVESTIGATE RAPE CHARGES ON HIS OWN CAMPUS.

NOW, HE HAS BEEN DEMOTED IT LOOKS LIKE A PATH FOR HIM TO FIND ANOTHER JOB AND GET THE HECK OUT OF BAYLOR.

IS THIS A TURNING POINT IN COLLEGES TAKING THE GLOVES OFF WHEN IT COMES TO FOOTBALL COACHES AND CAMPUS RAPES?

>> WHAT MAKES ME SCARED ABOUT THIS SITUATION IS HOW MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED IN ALL OF THIS.

NO MATTER WHETHER IT IS A CHRISTIAN INSTITUTION OR PENN STATE HOW MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED AND HOW MUCH THEY ARE WILLING TO OVERLOOK THE BEHAVIORS AND CRIMES OF THE FOOTBALL PLAYERS BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED IN THEM PLAYING FOOTBALL.

>> YEP.

WHEN THE BAYLORS OF HIS WORLD, A BAPTIST COLLEGE HE IS A CHRISTIAN, HIRE THE LIKES OF KEN STAR, THEY ARE EXPOSING WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG.

AND THAT IS THAT THESE RELIGIOUS COLLEGES ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY THE STATE.

THEY ARE LIKE EVERY OTHER COLLEGE.

WHEN YOU GO TO BAYLOR, YOU DON'T TAKE RELIGION.

YOU TAKE WHATEVER YOU WOULD TAKE AT ANY COLLEGE.

SO I WASN'T SURPRISED THAT BAYLOR OR OTHER COLLEGES FOR THAT MATTER, I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT THEY DO NOT LOOK LIKE EVERY OTHER COLLEGE IN THE UNITED STATESNESS EXPERIENCING THE SAME THING.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE HONOR CODES?

>> THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING AND WE HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF WOMEN WHO DO NOT WANT TO REPORT BECAUSE THEY MIGHT THINK THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE HONOR CODE.

>> AND THEY HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATED.

>> AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS SOMETIMES THE HONOR CODES MIGHT GIVE THE COLLEGE OFFICIALS THE IDEA THAT STUDENTS ARE MORE WELL-BEHAVED BECAUSE THEY ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY THESE HONOR CODES.

WHEN IT IS A CULTURAL QUESTION: WHY IN THE WORLD DO HONOR CODES NOT MATTER?

WHY ARE KIDS WILLING TO FLAUNT THE RULES.

THIS IS I ASERIOUS ISSUE.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO THINK THAT THESE CRIMES ARE NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE OF AN HONOR CODE, CLEARLY HONOR CODES DO NOT HOLD THE STRENGTH OVER THESE KIDS THAT THEY USED TO.

>> COULDN'T THERE AT LEAST BE AN EXCEPTION IN THE HONOR CODE FOR WOMEN WHO ARE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ON CAMPUS TO BE ABLE TO COME FORWARD AND REPORT WITH NO PENALTIES BEING ENFORCED AGAINST THEM.

REPORT A RAPE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS ABOUT A CULTURE.

YES, I BELIEVE IN AN HONOR CODE BUT YOU DO SETUP A SITUATION WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE THERE'S ALCOHOL, IT'S A MESSY SITUATION.

AND BECAUSE I HAVE NOW ENGAGED IN AN ACTIVITY THAT I KNEW WAS AGAINST THE HONOR CODE I AM LESS LIKELY TO REPORT A RAPE AND THAT GOES TO THE ADMINISTRATION MAKING IT CLEAR IF A CRIME IS COMMITTED AGAINST YOU, YOU MUST REPORT THAT AND FEEL CONFIDENT THAT WE WILL INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE IT.

>> I'M CURIOUS IF ANYBODY KNOWS IS RAPE ANY LESS COMMON ON RELIGIOUS CAMPUSES SEXUAL ASSAULT THAN IT IS ON NONRELIGIOUS SCHOOLS?

>> YEAH.

I DON'T KNOW THOSE PRECISE STATISTICS BUT ONE THING I WANT TO BRING INTO THE DISCUSSION IS YOU HAVE LAYERS OF FROM TERNAL MALE-DOMINATED CULTURES GOING ON AT BAYLOR AND AT BRIGHAM YOUNG.

NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE THE FOOTBALL CULTURE WHICH WE KNOW THROUGH THE NFL IT'S SECULAR OR RELIGIOUS THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND THE GREED AND ALL OF THAT.

ON TOP OF THAT YOU HAVE THIS ISSUE OF RELIGIOUS FROM TERNAL CULTURES AS WELL.

WHERE YOU HAVE THE MALE DOMINANCE MODE SHAMING OF SEXUALITY AND WHAT COMES OUT IS THE SENSE THAT THERE'S PEOPLE IN POWER WHO ABUSE POWER AND PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE POWER WHO GET PUNISHED UNDER THE HONOR CODES.

IT'S INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT THE WAY THESE OPERATE AS A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD WOMEN ARE PUNISHED FOR UNDER HONOR CODES ABOUT HUMAN SEXUALITY ARE MEN GETTING PUNISHED?

THEY ARE NOT GETTING PUNISHED FOR RAPE?

>> AT BRIGHAM YOUNG A BASKETBALL PLAYER WAS PUNISHED BECAUSE HE HAD BROKEN THE CODE.

MEN DO GET PUNISH PUNISHED BUT IT IS ALLOWING WOMEN TO FEEL COMFORTABLE REPORTING A CRIME.

>> IT LOOKS LIKE BAYLOR WAS WORSE THAN MOST UNIVERSITIES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT ON MEN WHO HAD BEEN EXPELLED FROM OTHER UNIVERSITIES PRECISELY BECAUSE OF SEXUAL OFFENSES.

FOOTBALL WAS THE HONOR CODE OR THE CODE THAT THEY WANTED TO FOLLOW.

>> AND AFTER THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS WATERSHED MOMENT WHERE WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE THIS ANYMORE?

>> I DON'T SEE HOW.

KEN STAR IS DEMOTED.

I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THAT MOMENT.

>> YOU DO NOT THINK IT'S GOING TO BE EASIER FOR OTHER SCHOOLS TO GO AFTER THE FOOTBALL COACHES?

NOBODY THINKS THAT?

>> TOO MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED.

THERE'S TOO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED IN MAKING IT HAPPEN AND THE FOOTBALL PLAYERS THEY MAKE IT HAPPEN FOR THE UNIVERSITIES.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES: A NEW WAVE OF FEMINISM?

HOW CELEBRITIES, ADVERTISING, AND MEDIA LITERACY ARE CHANGING PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF FEMINISM.

>> WHEN PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE FIRST WAVES OF FEMINISM THEY THINK ABOUT WOMEN'S SUFFER RAJ AND GETTING THE VOTE AND THINK ABOUT WOMEN HUNGER STRIKING IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND WHEN WE THINK ABOUT FEMINISM IN THE 1960s AND 70s, IT'S RELATED TO CAREERS AND WAGES AND LIBERATING WOMEN FROM THIS IDEA OF WHAT FEMALE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND SUPPOSED TO CARE ABOUT AND SUPPOSED TO VALUE.

AND BECOME A MORE CULTURE THE EXPRESSION OF FEMINISM AND THE DES EXCEPT NATION OF FEMINISM THROUGH POP CULTURE AND MEDIA HAS BECOME MORE PRONOUNCED AND MORE INTERESTING.

WE ARE SEEING IT ON TV, THROUGH POP STARS, THROUGH ADVERTISING THAT HAPPENS TO BE THE LENS FOR THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT IN FEMINISM.

>> ANDI ZEISLER WE WERE FEMINIST ONCE EXAMINES THE REBRANDING OF FEMINISM.

ANDI ZEISLER BELIEVES THROUGH ADVERTISING WOMEN AND MEN ARE EXPOSED TO A CHANGING IDEOLOGY THAT COULD HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE MOVEMENT.

>> WHAT I HOPE MY BOOK MAKES CLEAR IS THAT FEMINISM IS NOT A FINITE MOVEMENT.

IT IS NOT A MOMENT IN TIME.

IT IS A REALLY ONGOING AND CONSTANTLY EVOLVING PROJECT.

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS CURRENT CULTURAL MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN, WHERE EVERYTHING IS SPOKEN OF IN THIS HYPERBOLIC TONE OF THIS IS THE MOST FEMINIST MOVIE EVER, THIS IS THE BEST TV SHOW EVER WHAT DOES IT MEAN AS IT IS NO LONGER SEEN AS A MOVEMENT BUT A WAY TO BRAND THINGS AS AN IDENTITY.

CORPORATIONS ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF SOCIAL JUSTICE.

>> THE BUYING AND SELLING OF FEMINIST IDEAS IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT.

CORPORATIONS FOR DECADES SPECIFICALLY MARKETED PRODUCTS TO WOMEN FOR FINANCIAL GAIN.

FROM CIGARETTES TO BEAUTY PRODUCTS, ANDI ZEISLER NOTES COMPANIES NEEDED TO USE BUZZWORDS AND IMAGERY TO GAIN CONSUMER SUPPORT.

>> WE SEE PEOPLE MAKING ADS FOR PRODUCTS THAT EMPHASIZE YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT JUST BUYING A FACE LOTION.

YOU ARE NOT JUST BUYING AN EXERCISE PLAN YOU ARE BUYING EMPOWER.

AND IT BECOMES A POWERFUL WAY TO SELL THINGS TO WOMEN INSTEAD OF USING THE TIME-TESTED TACTICS OF SHAME OR INSECURITY TO SELL THINGS.

BASICALLY THE IDEA IS WELL, WOMEN WILL BUY STUFF IF YOU DO NOT MAKE THEM FEEL TERRIBLE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

>> ANDI ZEISLER ARGUES THAT TYPE OF ADVERTISING MAY BRING VALUE AND SELF IMAGES BY ENTWINING THEM WITH THE PRODUCTS.

ON THE OTHER HAND USING A POLITICAL MOVEMENT TO BOOST SALES HARMS FEMINISM.

>> LAST YEAR WHEN SOME OF THE MAD MAX FURY ROAD CAME OUT PEOPLE GOT EXCITED BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WAS A MOVIE ABOUT MAD MAX BUT HAD A PROMINENT FEMALE CHARACTER AND THE MOVIE WAS AN INDICTMENT OF PAY ARKY.

THIS IS THE MUST SEE FILM OF THE DECADE.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, THIS MOVIE IS MADE WITHIN A SYSTEM, HOLLYWOOD, WHY COULDN'T A MOVIE LIKE THIS ACTUALLY MADE BY I AWOMAN HAVE THE SAME REACH?

OR GET THE SAME FUNDING?

WHAT ARE WE ESSENTIALLY SAYING WHEN WE SAY THIS IS A FEMINIST MOVIE MADE WITHIN AN INCREDIBLY UNFEMINIST INDUSTRY WHERE WOMEN ARE PAID LESS, PROMOTED LESS, YOU KNOW IGNORED, SIDELINED ET CETERA.

>> FEMINISM IS NOT AS TABOO AS IT WAS.

CELEBRITIES MORE THAN EVER PRESS FOR FEMINIST IDEALS FROM EQUAL PAY TO OWNING AND MOLDING THEIR OWN BRANDS.

IT WAS BEYONCE'S 2014 MTV PERFORMANCE THAT SOME CREDIT AS THE REBIRTH OF THE MOVEMENT.

>> FOR A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE, BEYONCE WAS THEIR FIRST EXPOSURE TO THIS CONCEPT OF FEMINISM BECAUSE SHE IS ALSO BEEN ABLE TO MAKE REALLY KNEWED -- NUANCED STATEMENTS.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE SAME FOR WHITE WOMEN AND NOT ALWAYS THE SAME FOR WOMEN OF COLOR.

AND SO THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT LENS ON FEMINISM WITHIN POP CULTURE.

>> SO ERIN ON THE ONE HAND WE'LL GET IN A MOMENT TO THE FEMME ADVERTISING MOVEMENT.

BUT I REMEMBER RUSH LIMBAUGH CALLING SOMEONE A FEMME NAZI AND FEMINIST BECAME A LABEL THAT YOUNG WOMEN WERE RUNNING FROM IN DROVES THIS IS 20 YEARS AGO.

SHOULDN'T FEMINISTS WE CELEBRATING THAT STARS ARE USING THE TERM TO BRAND THEMSELVES?

>> SURE.

FEMINISM IS HIP.

NO YES ABOUT T IT IS A HIPNESS TO FEMINISM THAT DID NOT EXIST AT THE TIME THE RUSH LIMBAUGH MADE THE COMMENTS.

SORRY, RUSH.

WE ARE GOING TO WIN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WHAT THE AUTHOR IS BRINGING UP ARE IMPORTANT POINTS WHICH IS THAT FEMINISM HAS TO MEAN SOMETHING.

A QUICK DEFINITION HERE.

FEMINISM IS AN ACTION AGENDA FOR THE EQUALITY OF ALL PEOPLE WITH WOMEN AND GIRLS AT THE CENTER.

THAT HAS TO MEAN SOMETHING.

YES, I'M HAPPY AS A MOM THAT I CAN BUY MY DAUGHTER A SHIRTED THAT SAYS BEAUTY AND BRAINS ON IT.

THAT IS FINE.

I THINK THAT IS GOOD.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, FEMINISM HAS TO HAVE TEETH TO IT.

SO YOU CANNOT FOR EXAMPLE TRY TO SELL ME THESE IDEA OF A PRO-LIFE FEMINIST.

THAT WE CAN RESTRICTS RIGHTS AND THAT IS FEMINIST.

THE AUTHOR HAS INTERESTING POINTS.

>> WELL, I THINK YOUR LAST POINT ABOUT YOU CANNOT SELL ME A PRO-LIFE FEMINIST IS WHY A LOT OF WOMEN DO NOT IDENTIFY AS FEMINIST BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THEY SET CERTAIN RULES YOU HAVE TO TALK A CERTAIN WAY AND BELIEVE A CERTAIN WAY AND IF YOU DON'T YOU CANNOT BE IN THE CLUB.

>> WHAT IS THE DITCH BETWEEN THAT AND ANY OTHER MOVEMENT, PRO GUN OR NOT?

YOU ARE REPUBLICAN OR YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT?

PROGRESSIVE OR CONSERVATIVE?

>> YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY YOU ARE FEMINIST AND FOR EQUALITY.

YOU WANT EQUALITY IN THE WORKPLACE.

WITHOUT HAVING TO AGREE WITH OTHER FEMINISTS ON OTHER ISSUES.

YOU CAN THINK -- >> PEOPLE DO IT ALL THE TIME.

AND YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT IF YOU DO NOT WANT BENEFITS FOR GOVERNMENT BENEFITS FOR POOR PEOPLE.

>> BUT THERE ARE MAINSTREAM FEMINISTS THAT FEMINISTS THAT GOT UP AND STOOD WITH HILLARY CLINTON AND SAID THERE IS A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL IF YOU DO NOT SUPPORT HILLARY CLINTON THEY ARE -- >> THEY DID NOT STAND WITH HER THEY MADE THEIR COMMENTS ON THEIR OWN.

>> THIS WAS AT A HILLARY RALLY.

AND THE POINT BEING THAT THEY ARE SIGNALING TO WOMEN THERE IS A CODE IF YOU WANT TO BE A FEMINIST YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THESE THINGS.

THIS IS WHY FEMINIST IS DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.

MOST WOMEN DO NOT IDENTIFY.

>> IF IT'S UNPOPULAR WHY ARE COMPANIES USING IT TO SELL PRODUCTS?

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ESPOUSE AN UNPOPULAR CAUSE?

>> LIKE YOU TALK ABOUT THE T-SHIRT THESE ARE NOT HARD CONCEPTS.

GIRL POWER.

>> BEYONCE IS THE BIGGEST SELLING POP STAR IN THE WORLD IT HAS BRANDED HERSELF A FEMINIST.

>> AND I REFUSE TO THINK THAT BEYONCE DID ANYTHING FOR THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT BY JI RATING ON STAGE AND PUTTING FEMINISM ON A BANNER.

>> SHUT THE FRONT DOOR!

IT WAS A WATERSHED MOMENT FOR FEMINISM ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

>> LOOK, THE MARKETPLACE DOES NOT TAKE RISKS.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE IS SOMETHING WE NEVER COULD HAVE SEEN 20 YEARS AGO.

WHEN PEOPLE WERE ONLY TALKING ABOUT VERY SERIOUS ISSUES.

WHEN THE MARKETPLACE SAYS IT'S BEEN ENOUGH FEMINISM, ABSORBED BY MEN AND WOMEN, SO THAT WE WANT TO BE A PART OF THIS, IT MEANS THAT FEMINISM OR AT LEAST SOME PARTS OF IT, THE LESS SERIOUS PARTS OF IT, THE PARTS THAT SAY WE ARE ALL FEMINISTS NOW HAS WON.

SO GET READY FOR IT.

>> LAST WORD.

>> I THINK THAT I AGREE THAT THERE IS A CODE.

I THINK THAT SHE BRINGS UP A GREAT POINT ABOUT FEMINISM DOESN'T MEAN ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE.

IT HAS BEEN DICTATED VERY MUCH BY EDUCATED, UPPER MIDDLE CLASS WHITE WOMEN.

AND THEIR DOGMA IS NOT THE SAME AS AN ASIAN OR BLACK WOMAN.

I'M EXCITED THAT MORE PERSPECTIVES OF WOMEN WILL BE INCLUDED.

>> I WANT TO GET BACK FOR A SECOND.

YOU'RE ATTACKING FEMINISM BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE TO ADOPT AN AGENDA.

HOW DOES IT MAKE IT ANY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER LABEL YOU WANT TO ADOPT?

>> FEMINISM IS NOT A POLITICAL PARTY IT IS A BELIEF IN WOMEN'S EQUALITY.

AND THERE ARE MANY FEMINISTS WHO TELL YOU YOU CANNOT BE IN THE CLUB UNLESS YOU BELIEVE IN CERTAIN THINGS.

>> THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND WEB OUR WEBSITE.

PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

[♪♪♪] >> Announcer: FUNDING FOR TO THE CONTRARY PROVIDED BY THE OAK FOUNDATION, THE COLCOM FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSE OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PEB