>> THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY... FIRST, THE VATICAN ENDS ITS BATTLE WITH AMERICAN NUNS AND REDDIT HOPES ITS NEW HIRING POLICY WILL HELP LEVEL THE WAGE GAP AND MOTHERHOOD.

IT'S TOUGH WORK BUT IS IT A JOB?

[♪♪♪] [♪♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE NEW POPE PIPES UP ON WOMEN.

A CONTROVERSIAL THREE-YEAR PROGRAM OF VATICAN OVERSIGHT OF THE MAIN LEADERSHIP GROUP OF U.S. CATHOLICS SISTERS HAS COME TO A CURT AND UNEXPECTED END.

THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE OF WOMEN RELIGIOUS WHICH REPRESENTS THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICA'S NUNS WAS THE SUBJECT OF AN INVESTIGATION LAUNCHED BY POPE BENEDICT XVI.

THE NUNS WERE ACCUSED OF STRAYING FROM CATHOLIC TEACHING ON SUBJECTS SUCH AS SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AND ABORTION.

WOMEN RELIGIOUS IS EXPECTED TO MAKE SOME SMALL CHANGES BUT OTHERWISE STAY THE COURSE.

IT'S HOPED THAT THE HOLE LEE SEE'S AHE OWE HOLY SEE'S ANNOUNCEMENT ENDS TENSION IN AMERICA.

>> DOES THIS SIGNAL THE BEGINNING OF THE FRANCIS ERA WHERE WOMEN HAVE MORE STATURE IN THE CHURCH?

>> BONNIE I WILL NOT CALL IT A REVOLUTION BUT IT IS A REAL DEPARTURE THAT AS I BELIEVE WELCOMED BY CATHOLICS AND NON-CATHOLICS ALIKE.

>> I BELIEVE FOR POPE FRANCIS IT IS ABOUT A WELCOMING TONE.

AND HE HAS EXPRESSED INTEREST AND OF COURSE AND PROVIDING OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN.

>> I THINK THIS IS ONE IN A SERIES OF EXAMPLES THAT THE POPE HAS TAKEN A NEW LOOK WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO BE A CATHOLIC.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE INVESTIGATION MAYBE HE DID NOT NEED TO TAKE THEM FIVE YEARS TO GET IT DONE.

>> BUT FIRST OF ALL, I WONDER IF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THERE ARE NO MORE YOUNG NUNS IN AMERICA.

>> THERE IS.

>> NOT LIKE THE NUMBERS THAT THERE WERE 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO.

IT'S MUCH -- THE MOST CONSERVATIVE ARE -- BUT THEY ARE VERY SMALL AND WHEREAS THERE USED TO BE TENS OF THOUSANDS AND MORE.

>> WHY?

BECAUSE A LOT OF THE BIG CATHOLIC FAMILIES WOULD SAY YOU ARE GOING TO BECOME A PRIEST AND A NUN.

IT'S HARDER TO BECOME A PRIEST OR NUN IN THE SOCIETY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED.

>> IS THAT ALSO A REASON WHY POPE FRANCIS WHO SEEMS TO BE FRIENDLIER TO WOMEN AND TO GAYS AND THE WHOLE SHEBANG IS THAT WHY -- >> HE WANTS TO FIND THE COMMON FACTOR WHICH HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DIDN'T LOSE THE FOCUS OF THE CHURCH WHICH IS THAT OF SERVING THE POOR AND BEING MERCIFUL.

AND THAT IS ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS HE IS WANTED TO TOUCH AMONG ALL.

HE IS SAYING LOOK WE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH HOWEVER WE WANT A WELCOMING TONE AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO JUDGE YOU.

WITH THAT TONE I THINK EVEN THOSE THAT ARE WHAT YOU WOULD CALL NOT THE PRACTICING CATHOLICS ARE LOOKING BACK AND SAYING WAIT, MAYBE I CAN GO BACK TO THE CHURCH BECAUSE I'M FEELING WELCOMED AGAIN.

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE.

>> AND THE POINT ABOUT TONE, I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST POLARIZING THIS CHURCH HAS DEN TO HAVE THE WOMEN, THE NUNS POLARIZED NOT THE PRIESTS BUT FROM THE MALE HIGHER ASHKY OF THE CHURCH AND WITHABLE ACCUSATIONS HERE IS A POPE WHO HAS BEEN ABOUT RECONCILIATION AND FINDING WAYS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND HE CUT SHORT THIS MOST POLARIZED INVESTIGATION OF YOU PEOPLE.

YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE THE ONES IN THE CHURCH WHO MINISTER TO THE POOREST, WHO BY THE WAY, THIS POPE EMPATHIZES WITH MOST.

>> WASHES THE FEET -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

I'M NOT GOING TO CARRY ON.

GET THEM TOGETHER AND LOOK AT THE TONE THAT COMES OUT WHEN THEY GET TOGETHER AND REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS TAKE NOTICE.

[LAUGHTER] >> AND I THINK THIS MAYBE HAD BEEN MADE INTO A LARGER THING.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS THIS IS A GROUP THAT INVITED SPEAKERS THAT WERE NOT IN LINE WITH CATHOLIC DOCTRINE AND ONE WOMAN SPOKE WITH A NEW AGE SPIRITUALIST.

I UNDERSTAND IF I WERE A CATHOLIC I WOULD LOOK AND GO WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT.

THEY GAVE AN AWARD TO A THREE LOW JANUARY AT ODDS WITH CATHOLIC TEACHING AND THE CHURCH SAID LOOK IT'S GREAT THAT YOU HAVE THIS ORGANIZATION BUT YOU CANNOT SPONSOR THAT BECAUSE IT SENDS OUT THE WRONG MESSAGE AND IT'S OUT OF LINE.

>> THERE'S GOING -- >> WOMEN RELIGIOUS ARE GOING TO STOP INVITING SPEAKERS -- >> NOT AT ODDS THEY HAVE TO HAVE SPEAKERS WHO SPEAK TO WHETHER CULTURAL ISSUES OR THEOLOGICAL ISSUES ALONG THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

I DON'T THINK IT'S CAVING.

>> HAVE YOU EVER MET A NUN?

>> IT IS A REORDERING WE UNDERSTAND THAT WAS CAUSING A PROBLEM AND THEREFORE WE ARE NOT -- IF THESE ARE WOMEN WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH AND ADHERE TO CHURCH TEACHINGS WHICH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIRES WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

>> I AM NOT CATHOLIC AND NOT RELIGIOUS TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

BUT WHEN I READ ABOUT THIS AND I LOOK AT AN OUTSIDER, WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS THE FACT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS A HEAVY HANDED APPROACH TOWARDS THE NUNS, YET THEY LOOKED WAY FOR YEARS AND CONTINUE TO LOOK AWAY IN TERMS OF THEIR HOUSE WHEN IT HAS TO DO WITH THE PRIESTS AND THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PRIESTS.

YOU HAD A ST. LOUIS ARCHBISHOP TO SAY HE DID NOT REALIZE THAT SEXUAL ABUSE AGAINST CHILDREN WAS AGAINST THE LAW.

THEY NEED TO PRIORITIZE WHAT THEY INVESTIGATE IN THE CHURCH AND THE NUNS NEED TO BE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.

>> BUT LOOK AT THE AMERICAN NUNS AND THE PICTURES THEY ARE NOT IN HABITS.

THEY HAVE JOBS.

THEY ARE NOT WORKING FOR THE CHURCH.

A LOT ARE PROFESSORS AND NOT A CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY AND THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THEM.

WHY WOULD THE CHURCH DO SOMETHING TO DRIVE AWAY THE FEW REMAINING WOMEN?

AND AGAIN MERCY'S POINT THERE IS ONE ORDER IN TENNESSEE, AND THEY ARE THRIVING.

BUT IT'S ONE ORDER AND THE NUMBERS [INAUDIBLE] AND NOW IT'S THIS MANY.

>> THERE ARE 57,000 AND WE SHOULD BE CLEAR THIS ORGANIZATION REPRESENT -- IT HAS LIKE 1500 MEMBERS.

SO -- >> NO, IT REPRESENTS THE VAST MAJORITY IS WHAT THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER SAID.

>> IF YOU READ THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REGISTER YOU GET A DIFFERENT STORY AND WHAT THEY REPRESENT THE LEADER AND THE LEADERS SAY I REPRESENT 500 NUNS AND THEY ARE NOT ALL MEMBERS.

THIS IS A 1500-MEMBER ORGANIZATION.

MY POINT IS, I THINK THIS IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT SUPPOSED TO BE REPRESENTING WOMEN WHO ARE WORKING WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BELIEVES CERTAIN THINGS.

AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH AND OFFICIALLY RELATED TO THE CHURCH, A PRIEST, NUN, WHAT HAVE YOU, YOU HAVE TO UPHOLD.

THEY DON'T MAKE YOU BECOME A NUN OR A PRIEST AND YOU VOLUNTEER.

AND -- >> AND AS MERCY SAID YOU WERE SENT OFF BY YOUR FAMILY IN AN AGE WHEN WOMEN HAD NO POWER.

AND FRANKLY, A LOT OF THEM LIKE IN IRELAND, THE SISTERS THE LAUNDRY SISTERS THEY WERE CAPTURED ESSENTIALLY BY THE NONARIES AND LIKE THEY WERE PRISONERS.

AND I'M SAYING IN THE ERA WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING LIKE THAT ANYMORE, HOW INTELLIGENT IS IT OF THE -- LIKE YOU WERE SAYING HOW DO YOU CHANGE THE TONE ASIDE FROM THIS SITUATION, WAIT, THIS POPE HAS SAID THAT HE WANTS TO INCLUDE WOMEN MORE IN THE HIERARCHY.

>> AND YOU WILL SEE THE CHANGE.

I THINK YOU WILL START SEEING MORE WOMEN BE YOU KNOW, APPOINTED TO THESE MORE IMPORTANT POSITIONS IN THE CHURCH.

YOU KNOW WE ARE NOT -- >> NEVER A PRIEST.

>> THE PROBLEM WITH THE PRIEST IT IS GOES BACK TO THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH AND THE FACT THAT JESUS CHOSE HIS 12 APOSTLES AND YET IT WAS MARY WHO PLAYED AN INCREDIBLE ROLE IN HIS LIFE.

SO I THINK YOU WILL SEE -- A LOT MORE EMPHASIS OF WOMEN BEING IN IMPORTANT ROLES IN THE CHURCH.

>> THIS POPE IS AN INCREDIBLE POLITICIAN.

HE IS GRADUALLY BRINGING HIS CHURCH INTO THE 21ST CENTURY AND WITHOUT UPSETTING, HE HOPES, THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH.

>> I THINK HE HAS TO BE GIVEN CREDIT.

WHEN YOU SIT HERE AND TALK ABOUT THERE ARE MORE NUNS THAN YOU ARE SAYING THERE ARE, THIS IS A POPE THAT UNDERSTANDS THERE ARE MORE CATHOLICS THAN SAY THEY ARE TODAY.

AND YES HE WANTS TO EXPAND THE NUMBER OF WOMEN WHO BECOME NUNS AND WANTS TO EXPAND THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS THAT GO TO CHURCH.

HE IS MADE FOR HIS POST.

AND I AS A NON-CATHOLIC I RIDE WITH YOU, HE DOES SOMETHING IMPORTANT.

HE MAKES NON-CATHOLICS REALLY EMBRACE WHAT CHRISTIANITY MUST MEAN AND WHAT CATHOLICISM -- CAN I FINISH?

AND WHAT CATHOLICISM MEANS BECAUSE AS YOU SAY MANY PEOPLE READ THE CRITICISMS OF THE CHURCH HERE AS SIMPLY VIR RALE AND ANTI-CATHOLIC YOU WILL SEE LESS OF THAT.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE.

FROM THE CHURCH TO THE BANK.

PRAISE AND CRITICISM THIS WEEK FOR REDDIT C.E.O.

ELLEN PAO'S ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THE COMPANY WILL NO LONGER NEGOTIATE SALARIES FOR FIRST TIME HIRES.

PAO INSTITUTED THE SEABROOK CHANGE IN HIRING PRACTICES BECAUSE MEN TEND TO NEGOTIATE MORE THAN WOMEN AND WOMEN ARE PENALIZED SOMETIMES FOR NEGOTIATING.

THE POLICY ADDRESSES THE WAGE GAP BY TAKING THE NEGOTIATING SKILLS OUT OF THE EQUATION.

PAO ANNOUNCED THE POLICY AFTER LOSING HER GENDER DISCRIMINATION LAWSUIT AGAINST KLEINER PERKINS CAUFIELD & BYERS.

I HAVE TO SAY WHEN THIS CAME OUT LAST WEEK, I THOUGHT SHE WAS WAY MORE BRILLIANT THAN THE LEAN IN WOMAN WHO JUST ADVISING PEOPLE TO DO THINGS GENERALLY.

THIS IS REAL CHANGE.

WILL IT HELP ELIMINATE THE WAGE GAP?

>> I DON'T THINK SO IN THE LONG-TERM BUT SHE CAN CONVINCE HER BOARD AND FOLKS IT IS A GOOD IDEA WE'LL SEE EXPERIMENT WITH IT.

BUT WHAT IT DOES IT SAYS THAT AS OPPOSED TO YOU KNOW, HELPING WOMEN GET BETTER AT SOMETHING WE ARE BECAUSE AND SAYING THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AS MEN ARE.

WE ARE GOING TO TELL MEN YOU CANNOT NEGOTIATE.

AND IT'S ALSO TAKING FREEDOM AWAY FROM AN EMPLOYEE WHAT IF YOU THINK YOU ARE WORTH MORE?

SHE IS SAYING TOO BAD THIS IS WHAT WE THINK YOU ARE WORTH AND THAT IS IT.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE ISSUE, THOUGH, AND I JUST SAID, I THOUGHT IT WAS BRILLIANT, BUT MOST -- THE WAGE GAP SETS IN THE 40s, 50s, 60s.

AND SO WHAT DOES HAVING AN EQUAL ENTRY SALARY DO 20 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD FOR THE WOMEN?

>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THINGS REALLY BEGIN TO EXPLODE THE OLDER YOU GET IN YOUR CAREER AND SEVERAL THINGS HAPPEN.

YOU BEGIN TO CHANGE TO DIFFERENT JOB.

WOMEN SOMETIMES ARE NOT ONLY LESS LIKELY TO NEGOTIATE NOT JUST THE ISSUE THAT WOMEN DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS BUT OFTENTIMES NEGOTIATION IS TAKEN AGAINST WOMEN MORE THAN MEN.

SO -- >> WE DID A STORY ABOUT A PROFESSOR AT UPSTATE NEW YORK COLLEGE WHO ASKED FOR MORE AND THEY RESCINDED THE JOB OFFER.

THERE IS WAGE DISCRIMINATION PERIOD IN THE WORKPLACE.

AND THIS IS ONE APPROACH.

I THINK IT'S CREATIVE I AM IN FAVOR OF IT.

BUT I WANT TO SAY THAT I WANT MORE TRANSPARENCY IN TERMS OF WHAT INDIVIDUALS ARE BEING PAID SO THAT INDIVIDUALS CAN KNOW IF THEIR CO-WORKER IS PAID THE SAME.

AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE SECRECY YOU WILL HAVE THE DISCRIMINATION.

>> THE LAW DOES NOT ALLOW THAT.

AND I'M GOING TO CROSSOVER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE WITH MY CONSERVATIVE SISTERS THERE.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT THE WAY TO EQUALIZE WAGES IS TO SAY EVERYBODY HAS TO ACCEPT THIS WAGE.

WHO REALLY GAINS FROM THAT MANAGEMENT?

I DON'T THINK THAT IS PROGRESSIVE.

I AM A DEMOCRAT.

IF I'M GOING TO SAY I DO NOT BELIEVE, BY THE WAY, THAT WOMEN ARE LESS ABLE TO NEGOTIATE.

THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE EQUAL TO THIS JOB BUT BY THE WAY, THE ONE THING I CAN'T DO IS NEGOTIATE FOR MY PAY.

YOU CANNOT ASSERT YOUR EQUALITY AND NOT DO THAT.

WE WOMEN WE HAVE TO SAY LOOK, THE WAY MEN DO IT, IS THEY DO FIND A WAY WITHOUT TRYING TO PUT OFF THE EMPLOYER, TO TRY TO INDICATE WHY THEY THINK THEY MAY DESERVE A LITTLE BIT BETTER THAN THIS.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE TAKEN UP BY THE WAY BY EMPLOYERS ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> YOU DON'T THINK COMPANIES WILL FOLLOW SUIT?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THEY EXPECT THIS TO BE A COMPETITIVE WORLD AND THEY WILL LOOK AT YOU IN PART BY WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE WILLING TO TALKBACK TO ME ON SOMETHING AS FUNDAMENTAL TO YOU AS YOUR WAGES.

IF YOU ARE NOT, I'M NOT SURE I CAN TRUST YOU TO TALK TO THE PEOPLE I WANT YOU TO TALK TO.

IT SAYS WOMEN GET READY FOR T BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT EASY FOR YOU.

IF YOU ARE EQUAL TO MEN IN EVERY SENSE TRYING TO GET THAT JOB START FROM THE MOMENT YOU SIT DOWN AND BEGIN TO TALK TO THE EMPLOYER ABOUT YOUR PAY.

>> AND TO THAT POINT, I WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE IMPRESSED WITH THE C.E.O.

IF SHE WOULD HAVE SAID ALL RIGHT LADIES COME TO MY OFFICE WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A NEGOTIATING SESSION AND YOU MENTOR THE WOMEN.

AND IF WE WANT TO PLAY WITH THE BOYS, I JUST THINK SAYING WE'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH IN THE NEGOTIATION PROCESS.

TEACH ME, MAKE ME BETTER.

I WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE IMPRESSED WITH THAT.

>> MY GUESS IS SHE WOULD SAY WE'RE PLAYING BY THE GUY'S RULES.

MAYBE THEY ARE BETTER BUT -- BUT THE REALITY IS SHE IS TAKING COMPETITION OUT PERIOD.

WHICH IS FRANKLY [INAUDIBLE] >> AT THE ENTRY LEVEL, YES.

SIMILARLY, PEOPLE RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE OR GRADUATE SCHOOL -- >> NOT EVERYBODY IS SHOWING UP IS EQUAL WHEN THEY WALK INTO THE DOOR IN TERMS OF THE SKILLS THEY BRING.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE THAT YOU ARE NECESSARILY MAYBE ONE SPEAKS A FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND ONE DOESN'T.

MAYBE ONE IS A BETTER COMMUNICATIONS PROFESSIONAL AND THE JOB REQUIRES THAT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT GO INTO IT.

BUT YOU MADE A GOOD POINT WHY ONLY DO IT THERE?

ON YOUR SECOND AND THIRD PROMOTION DO YOU NOT HAVE TO NEGOTIATE?

>> SHE IS DOING IT OUT OF HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

>> OF COURSE.

>> THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO DECIDE WHAT YOUR WORKFORCE OUGHT TO LOOK LIKE.

AND I REPEAT, WHO BENEFITS FROM THIS?

SHE DOES.

SHE HAS THE BOTTOM LINE.

>> SHE DOESN'T.

SHE IS -- >> SHE IS HOLDING EVERYBODY'S SALARY AT A CERTAIN LEVEL.

>> AND SHE IS WORKING FOR -- RUNNING A SMALL 75-PERSON TECH COMPANY.

>> THAT IS COMPETING WITH OTHER COMPANIES.

>> AND THE GOING SALARY FOR I WAS TOLD BY A GUY WHO GRADUATED FROM BERKELEY, COMPUTER SCIENCES SCHOOL THE GOING SALARY FOR A PROGRAMMER IS $180,000 A YEAR.

SO SHE CANNOT OFFER LESS THAN THAT OR SHE WON'T GET THE TOP TALENT.

I DON'T THINK THAT MANAGEMENT NECESSARILY -- I DON'T THINK SHE IS LOWERING EVERYBODY'S SALARY.

SHE IS MAKING SURE WOMEN MAKE AS MUCH AS MEN.

>> SHE IS CONTROLLING HER BOTTOM LINE IT MEANS THAT SOME PEOPLE IN WHAT IS A COMPETITIVE FIELD WILL BE HELD IF THEY WANT TO WORK FOR HER TO THAT 180 GRAND.

>> AND IT'S INTERESTING THE C.E.O.

OF A CREDIT CARD PAYMENT COMPANY DAN PRICE IN SEATTLE HE CUT HIS OWN PAY AND GAVE EVERYONE A $70,000 SALARY.

WHY DOESN'T SHE DO THAT?

YOU WANT TO MAKE IT AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD?

>> I BET YOU ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT HE HAS A LOT MORE THAN 75 EMPLOYEES.

>> MAYBE.

BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW HER COMPANY IS GOING TO GROW.

IF YOU GO GET 180 AND OTHER PLACES YOU MIGHT GET 200 OR 210, YOU ARE GOING TO ANOTHER COMPANY.

>> WHATEVER BAR SHE SETS SHE HAS TO BE COMPETITIVE BECAUSE OTHERWISE SHE WON'T GET THEM BUT WE ARE OUT OF TIME ON THIS TOPIC.

NOW, WHY ONE WRITER BELIEVES BEING A STAY-AT-HOME MOM IS NOT A JOB.

>> WE'VE ALL HEARD THE EXPRESSION MOTHERING IS THE HARDEST JOB IN THE WORLD.

IT'S POLITICALLY CORRECT TO REFER TO MOMS AS WORKING INSIDE THE HOME.

BEING A MOM IS ALWAYS HARD AND CHALLENGING.

BUT IS IT A JOB?

A RECENT OPINION PIECE BY A ONE-TIME STAY-AT-HOME MOM TAKES ISSUE WITH THE IDEA THAT MOTHERHOOD IS A CAREER.

LIZ PARDUE SCHULTZ SAYS SHE UNDERSTANDS QUOTE A STAY AT HOMER WANTING TO VALIDATE HIS OR HER LIFE BY CALLING IT A JOB BUT GETTING TO DO NOTHING BUT RAISE A PERSON YOU OPTED TO BRING INTO THE WORLD IS A PRIVILEGE.

CALLING IT ANYTHING ELSE IS IGNORANT AND CON DES SENDING.

>> AND SHE EXPECTED NEGATIVE REACTION AND BOY DID SHE GET IT.

AND MY QUESTION TO YOU IS: WITH FIVE CHILDREN AND WORKING A LOT OUTSIDE -- A SUPER WORKER OUTSIDE THE HOME, DO YOU CONSIDER WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR KIDS AT HOME A JOB?

>> IN FACT IT IS A MULTIPLE JOBS.

I CAN BE A NURSE ONE DAY AND A TEACHER MOST DAYS.

I'M USUALLY A CHEF BECAUSE I HAVE TO COOK FOR THE KIDS.

YES, I FIND THAT IT IS A JOB.

IS IT A REWARDING JOB?

ABSOLUTELY.

IS IT FRUSTRATING?

YES.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE DEDICATING TIME, WORK TIME, PHYSICAL LABOR, ALL OF THAT TO ME, THAT IS A JOB.

>> AND OVERTIME.

>> AND OVERTIME.

>> LET ME SHOW YOU SAY WHY I THINK IT IS A JOB.

LEGALLY IT IS A JOB.

IF SHE DIVORCES THAT MAN OR HE DIVORCES HER HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY HER AS IF BECAUSE OF HER QUOTE JOB OF TAKING CARE OF THOSE CHILDREN.

IF IT MAKES THESE WOMEN WHO ARE WORKING HARDER SOMETIMES THAN I AM OR MANY OF US WHO WORK FULL-TIME UNDERSTAND THAT THAT FUNCTION IS APPRECIATED, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH CALLING IT A JOB.

THE ONLY THING I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS WHAT YOU CALL A THING.

WHY SHOULD SHE CARE SO MUCH WHAT IT'S CALLED?

>> BECAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD ARE WE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE?

>> BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING SOCIAL QUESTION REALLY.

YES YOU ARE RIGHT WHY DO WOMEN WHO STAY-AT-HOME MOMS FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO BE SEEN AS WORKING?

>> BECAUSE FOR A LONGTIME THEY FELT AS THOUGH PEOPLE THOUGHT WHAT YOU WERE DOING WAS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT THEY WERE DOING OUTSIDE THE HOME.

>> IS IT THEIR JOB THAT THEY HAVE TO BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND BELIEVE IT IS AS IMPORTANT AND NOT CARE IF THEIR HIGH SCHOOL BUDDY IS NOW C.E.O.

OF A MAJOR CORPORATION.

>> AND MANY FELT THAT WAY.

BUT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH SOCIETY SAYING WE OUGHT TO ADMIRE AND UPHOLD CERTAIN THINGS AND STAY-AT-HOME MOMS ARE ONE OF THEM.

AND THEY ARE RAISING THE NEXT GENERATION OF CHILDREN AND WE OUGHT TO HONOR THAT.

>> THIS WOMEN CALL TO DO A PRIVILEGE.

IS IT A PRIVILEGE?

ELEANOR MOST OF ELEANOR'S CONSTITUENTS IN DC WHICH IS A CITY WITH LOW INCOME AREAS, THEY CAN -- IT'S NOT A CHOICE.

SHE IS SAYING IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY BEHIND YOU, WHETHER YOU INHERITED IT OR YOUR PARTNER GIVES IT TO YOU OR YOUR SPOUSE IF YOU HAVE A SPOUSE OR YOUR PARTNER OR WHEREVER IT COMES FROM, IS IT NOT A PRIVILEGE?

AND WHY ISN'T IT SEEN THAT WAY?

>> WELL, LET ME SAY WHY I THINK IT IS A PRIVILEGE.

IT IS A PRIVILEGE AND IT IS A JOB.

I AM A MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

I LOVE MY JOB.

THESE WOMEN LOVE THEIR JOBS.

AND I WANT TO SPEAK -- >> CAN YOU LOVE RAISING YOUR TWO KIDS?

>> I DID.

I DID.

AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT THE WHOLE TIME BECAUSE I ALSO HAD A JOB.

AND LET ME SAY WHY AS A FEMINIST IT'S IMPORTANT.

FEMINISTS TRIED TO SAY FOR A LONGTIME, TRIED TO REFUTE THE NOTION THAT WE REALLY PREFER PEOPLE TO GO TO WORK AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T GO TO WORK AND TAKE CARE OF CHILDREN ARE NOT WHAT THE NEW FEMINISM IS ABOUT.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN WE HAVE SAID IT'S ABOUT CHOICES I RESPECT THAT CHOICE.

AND IT'S JUST AS GOOD A CHOICE AS WHAT I MADE.

>> THE VALUE IS THAT WOMEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH THEIR LIVES AND BEING A MOTHER IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU CALL IT A JOB OR PRIVILEGE IF WE DID NOT HAVE MOTHERS NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE TODAY.

>> WERE YOU EVER BEEN A FULL-TIME MOM.

>> NO.

>> I DON'T DEVALUE WOMEN TO MAKE THAT CHOICE YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD IT AND WHO CAN DO IT AND WANT TO DO IT.

WHY WOULD I SAY WHAT I DO IN TERMS OF BRINGING IN 18 INCOME OUTSIDE THE HOME IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN A WOMAN RAISING HER CHILDREN?

IT'S NOT.

>> WHY IS IT NOT THE SAME FOR STAYSTAY AT HOME DADS.

>> I THINK THEY HAVE A HARDER TIME BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS COMMON.

IT'S NOT LIKE YOU HAVE A BIG DADDY GROUP LIKE THE MOMMY'S GROUP.

I THINK IT'S MORE CHALLENGING FOR THEM.

>> IT IS A REAL JOB FOR THEM.

[LAUGHTER] >> YOU KNOW WHY?

I THINK THEY GET ELEVATED.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY IT IS A REAL JOB FOR THEM?

>> OFTEN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RAISED HOW TO DO IT AND THEY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT ON THE JOBCH WHERE MANY OF US, EVEN THOSE OF US WHO WERE FEMINISTS, WE WERE BORN WITH DOLLS AND WITH WASHING DISHES AND WITH DOING THE THINGS YOU DO AS A STAY-AT-HOME MOM AND A MAN WHO STAYS HOME I HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR.

>> MORE RESPECT THAN A WOMAN?

>> NO, PARTICULARLY IF HE CHOOSES HE RESPECTS HIS WIFE AND RESPECTS HIS CHILDREN AT THE SAME TIME.

>> YES.

OFTENTIMES I THINK THEY ARE ELEVATED.

THE MEN WHO DON'T STAY HOME WITH THE CHILDREN FUM FULL-TIME WHEN THEY ARE WATCHING THE CHILDREN PEOPLE SAY HE IS BABYSITTING.

NO, THOSE ARE YOUR CHILDREN.

>> THE KIDS ARE ON THEIR OWN.

>> BUT THEY COME INTO IT LATE IN THE GAME.

AND WE HAVE HAD THE DEBATE OF HOW IMPORTANT STAY AT HOME PARENTS ARE.

WHATEVER JOB IT IS A PRIVILEGE FOR YOU TO SERVE YOUR CONSTITUENTS IN YOUR JOB.

YOUR JOB IS A PRIVILEGE AND A JOB.

IT IS A PRIVILEGE FOR YOU TO HOST A TV SHOW NOT EVERYBODY GETS TO DO THAT.

I THINK TO SEPARATE ALL THE THINGS OUT AND THIS IS A CAREER AND THIS IS A JOB I THINK THAT IS -- >> IS THERE A BETTER TERMS FOR IT?

>> THERE'S VOCATION.

IT IS A CALLING.

WHERE YOU ARE IN A FIELD THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SHAPE AND INFLUENCE YOUR CHILDREN'S LIVES AND KNOW THE TIME THAT YOU HAVE TO LET THEM GO AND GROW UP AND THINK INDEPENDENTLY.

SO I THINK THAT YES, I THINK IT'S NOT ONLY A JOB IT IS A VOCATION, A CALLING, A LIFE TILE STYLE -- LIFESTYLE AND A WAY OF LIFE AND A BLESSING AT THE SAME TIME.

>> BETTER WORD?

>> I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHATEVER THEY DESCRIBE OR JOB OR STAY AT HOME PARENTING.

BEAUTIFUL TIME HOME MAKING.

THERE'S MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES AND WHY SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO STIR THE POT.

>> CAN'T WE RESPECT EACH OTHER AS MOTHERS AND WOMEN.

>> WHETHER YOU WORK OR STAY AT HOME FULL-TIME THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

[♪♪♪] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF THIS VERSION OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.