>> COMING UP ON TO THE CONTRARY... LONG TIME PANELIST DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON TELLS HER FASCINATING LIFE STORY.

[♪♪] CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON I HAVE KNOWN YOU FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS WE WANT TO DO A HALF HOUR INTERVIEW WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE BECOME A NATIONAL TREASURE.

AND WE JUST WANT OUR VIEWERS TO BE ABLE TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU'RE STARTING FROM CHILDHOOD WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE FOR YOU.

YOU TOLD ME YOUR GREATnd GRANDFATHER WAS A RUN AWAY SLAVE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT STORY.

>> THAT IS HOW I BECAME A NATIVE WASHINGTONIAN.

MY GREAT GRANDFATHER RICHARD HOLMES AS MY GRANDFATHER TOLD IT, SIMPLY WALKED OFF OF A PLANTATION SOMETIME IN THE LATE 1840s OR 1850s.

NO CONSPIRACY.

RICHARD HOLMES JUST WALKED AWAY.

AND WALKED ALL THE WAY TO THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

WHERE HE ESTABLISHED HIMSELF VERY WELL,K BECAME A MINISTER.

HIS SON, MY GRANDFATHER, RICHARD HOLMES, ENTERED THE DC FIRE DEPARTMENT IN 1902 AND I HAVE A WONDERFUL PICTURE OF MY GRANDFATHER WITH HIS THREE OR FOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE DC FIRE DEPARTMENT.

THERE WERE ALL OF PERHAPS HALF A DOZEN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN IN THE DC FIRE DEPARTMENT ALL TOLD.

>> AND THEN TELL ME ABOUT YOUR EDUCATION AND HOW YOU ENDED UP AT YAL LAW SCHOOL.

>> I YALE LAW SCHOOL.

>> I WENT TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS THROUGHOUT MY LIFE.

>> SEPARATE BUT EQUAL.

>> SUCH AS THEY WERE.

BUT NOT SUBJECT TO WHAT PEOPLE IN MISSISSIPPI AND ALABAMA AND GEORGIA WERE THE BACK OF THE BUS THAT WE DID NOT HAVE IN WASHINGTON BUT I YEARNED TO BE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

WHILE AT YALE I WAS RECRUITED BY BOB MOSES WHO IS ONE OF THE MOST STORIED LEADERS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

THE FIRST OF THE STUDENT NONVIOLENT COORDINATING COMMITTEE.

HE HAD BEEN A PHILOSOPHY STUDENT AT HARVARD, THE FIRST TO GO INTO MISSISSIPPI.

THERE WERE HALF A DOZEN PEOPLE IN MISSISSIPPI.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE N.A.A.C.P.

HE HAD WHOLE SIT-INS IN MISSISSIPPI.

MISSISSIPPI WAS THE ONLY STATE IN 63 THAT HAD NOT HAD SIT-INS.

THEY HAD TO SPREAD ACROSS THE SOUTH BUT NOT TO MISSISSIPPI BECAUSE YOU TOOK YOUR LIFE IN YOUR HANDS.

SO, MEGA EVERS LET THE MOVEMENT.

WHEN I CAME TO MISSISSIPPI ON MY WAY TO THE DELTA, HE MET ME AT THE AIRPORT TOOK ME AROUND JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI.

THERE WERE SO FEW PEOPLE WITH LEGAL TRAINING THAT HE WANTED ME TO STAY IN JACKSON.

AND I TOLD HIM I HAD CONVINCE -- I HAD TOLD BOB MOSES I WOULD COME TO THE DELTA.

SO I COULD NOT POSSIBLY REMAIN THERE.

TOOK ME ALL AROUND AND PUT ME ON A BUS ITING TO THE DELTA AROUND 10:00 P.M.

I ARRIVED IN GREENWOOD, MISSISSIPPI.

EVERYTHING WAS WORKED OUT.

THEY TOOK ME TO THE HOME OF SOME FARMERS.

THE FARMERS TOLD ME WHAT TO DO THAT THEY WOULD BE GONE WHEN I WOKE UP.

WHERE THE OFFICE WAS.

I DID EXACTLY WHAT THEY TOLD ME.

HEATED WATER ON A STOVE SO THAT I COULD POUR IT INTO A 10-TUB A WASHER TUB TO TAKE A BATH WAS SITTING IN THAT TUB WHEN A YOUNG PERSON KNOCKED AT THE DOOR AND SAID AREN'T YOU THE STUDENT FROM UP NORTH?

YES.

THEY NEED YOU TO COME RIGHT UP THE STREET TO THE SNICK OFFICE AND MEGA EVERS WAS SHOT AND KILLED LAST NIGHT.

HE TOOK ME TO THE BUS STATION, WENT HOME AND WAS SHOT IN THE BACK.

HERE IS MY INTRODUCTION TO MISSISSIPPI.

I GOT UP THERE, BONNIE, AND I AM THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE ROOM.

SOMEBODY ABOUT MY AGE HAD GONE OVER TO GET ANOTHER OF THE -- WOMAN WHO WAS TO BECOME A GREAT LEADER OUT OF JAIL BECAUSE SHE HAD BEEN PUT IN JAIL FOR GETTING OFF OF A BUS IN MISSISSIPPI NINE MILES AWAY TO USE THE LADIES ROOM.

LAWRENCE GIOT MY AGE WENT TO GET HER OUT OF JAIL.

I'M TOLD BY THE YOUNG PEOPLE YOUNGER THAN ME, I AM A SECOND YEAR LAW STUDENT, NOW HE IS IN JAIL.

SO I SAID I GUESS THAT MEANS I HAVE TO GO TO TRY TO GET HIM OUT OF JAIL?

AND HE WENT AND HE GOT PUT IN JAIL I'M SUPPOSED TO GET HIM OUT OF JAIL?

I WAS ENOUGH OF A LAW STUDENT AND I SAID TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU KNOW.

I QUESTIONED THESE WERE 14, 15, 16-YEAR-OLD KIDS.

THEY TOLD ME THAT THE POLICE CHIEF IN GREENWOOD DID NOT MARCH WITH WHITE CITIZENS COUNCILS WHEN THEY PICKETED THE OFFICE.

ONE OF THEM, HE WAS RACIST BUT HE UNDERSTOOD HE WAS LAW ENFORCEMENT.

I WENT TO SEE THE MAN.

AND I SAID SIR, MY NAME IS ELEANOR KATHERINE HOLMES.

AND I AM A STUDENT AT YALE LAW SCHOOL.

EVERYBODY KNOWS I AM A DOWN HERE AND NOT ONLY MY MOTHER AND FATHER BUT THE DEAN OF THE LAW SCHOOL AND LOTS OF FOLKS KNOW I'M HERE BUT IT WILL BE UP TO ME TO GO GET PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL AND I'M ASKING YOU ONE THING, SIR... WOULD YOU JUST CALL MISSISSIPPI AND TELL THEM I'M COMING AND THAT ALL I WANT TO DO IS GET THE PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL NOT TO BE JAILED MYSELF?

BONNIE, I WENT OVER, FOUND THAT THE MAN WHO HAD GONE BEFORE ME TO GET MISS HAMER OUT OF JAIL HAD BEEN LET OUT DURING THE NIGHT AND THE WHITE CITIZENS COUNCILS HAD NO CLOTHES ON WHEN I GOT THERE.

THEY HAD TO ASK HIM TO PUT SOMETHING OVER HIM.

MISS HAMER HAD BEEN BEATEN.

BUT I WAS NOT PUT IN JAIL.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO GET THEM OUT OF JAIL.

THAT WAS THE MISSISSIPPI THAT I FOUND MYSELF IN IN 1963.

>> A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD.

>> VERY DIFFERENT AND TODAY MISSISSIPPI HAS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE OF ANY STATE LEGISLATURE IN THE COUNTRY.

IT IS A HARD FIGHT.

>> AND TELL ME ABOUT YALE.

WERE THERE OTHER AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN YOUR CLASS?

HOW MANY?

OUT OF HOW MANY STUDENTS?

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU BEING AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN AT YALE AT THE TIME THAT YOU WENT?

>> WELL, I SUPPOSE I MIGHT BE SAID TO BE OF THE AGE OF TOKENISM BECAUSE THERE WERE TWO AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN A CLASS.

>> OUT OF?

>> A CLASS OF MAYBE A THOUSAND.

>> OH, MY GOD.

>> MY CLASS STOOD OUT BECAUSE THERE WERE 14 WOMEN AND THAT WAS UNHEARD OF.

SO IT WAS A TIME WHEN FEW WOMEN WENT TO LAW SCHOOL.

FEW AFRICAN-AMERICANS WENT TO LAW SCHOOL AND NOT TO THE YALES AND HARVARDS OF THIS COUNTRY.

>> I THEN MARRIED A NEW YORKER.

WENT TO WORK AT THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION WHICH WAS A VERY MUCH A CAREER SHAPING, LIFE SHAPING OPPORTUNITY FOR ME.

BECAUSE I GOT TO ARGUE BEFORE THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

I GOT TO REPRESENT PEOPLE WITH WHOM I PROFOUNDLY DISAGREE AND GOT TO HAVE A LOT OF FUN.

>> AT ONE POINT YOU REPRESENTED THE WOMEN OF "NEWSWEEK" MAGAZINE AND THAT HAS BECOME A TV SERIES ON ONE OF THE ON-LINE NETWORKS.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT CASE HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT TO YOU?

AND DO YOU LOOK BACK ON IT WITH GREAT PRIDE?

IT WAS A CLASS ACTION AGAINST "NEWSWEEK" FOR SEX DISCRIMINATION KEEPING THE WOMEN DOWN AS RESEARCHERS, NEVER LETTING THEM BECOME EDITORS OR REPORTERS.

>> THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT IT WAS.

AND THE FILM THAT HAS BEEN MADE IS CALLED "GOOD GIRLS REVOLT."

AND THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE.

GOOD GIRLS.

"NEWSWEEK" HAD THE CREME DE LA CREME.

THESE WERE PHI BETA KAPPAS AND RODE SCHOLARS AND THEY ALL WANTED TO BE PART OF THE GLAMOROUS PUBLISHING BUSINESS.

AND "NEWSWEEK" AND TIME WERE IT.

SO TO GET TO BE THERE SEEMED GOOD ENOUGH.

FEW OF THEM CAME TO SEE ME AND SAID DO YOU THINK WE HAVE A CASE?

AND I SAID WOULD YOU LIKE SLAM DUNK?

IF ALL THE WOMEN AND ALL THE MEN ARE EQUALLY QUALIFIED AND MEN ARE BROUGHT IN AS REPORTERS AND WOMEN ARE BROUGHT IN AS RESEARCHERS.

FOR THE REST OF THEIR JOURNALISTIC LIVES THAT IS AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE OF DISCRIMINATION.

THAT SAID, THE WOMEN DID NOT SAY LET'S GO FOR IT.

AND THERE IS A REASON THEY DIDN'T.

THERE HAD NOT BEEN, AND I BELIEVE I'M CORRECT, A CLASS ACTION BROUGHT BY WOMEN AT THAT TIME.

BLACKS THE IRON INFIELD MY LIFE I WAS TO ENFORCE LATEER IN MY LIFE, BUT WOMEN WERE IF YOU WILL RECALL ADDED ONLY AT THE KIND OF REAR END AT THE VERY END OF THE STATUTE WHEN SOME SAID LET'S PUT SEX IN INSTEAD OF RACE, GENDER -- RACE AND RELIGION ET CETERA.

AND SOME THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS A WAY TO KILL THE STATUTE.

WELL, IT LIVED TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

BUT WOMEN WERE NOT PREPARED TO BE A PART OF A CIVIL RIGHTS STATUTE.

BUT CERTAINLY WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH THE WOMEN AT "NEWSWEEK" AND THERE HAD BEEN NO CLASS ACTIONS YOU CAN POINT TO NO ROLE MODELS WHO HAD SUCCEEDED, THE FIRST THING I HAD TO DO WAS WORK ON WHAT WAS THEN CALLED CONSCIOUSNESS RAISING AND TO MAKE THE WOMEN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WAS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS, THAT YOU COULD NOT BE FIRED THAT WAS AN ADDITIONAL VIOLATION OF THE STATUTE.

TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WERE READY.

ACTUALLY THEY WERE THE COURAGEOUS ONES.

I DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO LOSE.

I WAS ONLY THEIR LAWYER.

AND THEY DID NOT KNOW WOULD THEY BE BLACK BALLED?

YEAH, MAYBE THEY COULD BE FIRED BUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREER?

WELL, ASK NORAH HE HAVE RAMP WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

SHE IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO LEFT TO SEEK HER OWN FORTUNE BUT OTHERS WENT ON TO BE TOP FLIGHT JOURNALISTS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

>> FABULOUS.

FABULOUS STORY.

NOW TELL ME YOU WERE LATER THE PED BY PRESIDENT CARTER TO LEAD THE EEOC?

>> YES.

THERE HAD NEVER BEEN A WOMAN TO LEAD THE EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION AND IT SPEAKS TO HOW THE COMMISSION WAS BORN AND SEEN.

150 YEARS AFTER SLAVERY THERE WAS JOB DISCRIMINATION, HOUSING DISCRIMINATION.

THERE HAD NOT BEEN FEDERAL LAW PASSED.

SO WHEN I GOT TO THE COMMISSION, I WAS OBVIOUSLY INTERESTED INTERESTED IN THE MISSION THAT BROUGHT IT TO LIFE BUT I WAS INTERESTED IN WOMEN AS WELL.

AND SPENT A LOT OF MY TIME ON THAT ASPECT OF THE SEX AS WELL AS THE RACE ASPECT.

WE BROUGHT MANY CLASS ACTIONS.

TURNED THE AGENCY INTO NOT JUST AN INDIVIDUAL AGENCY BUT INTO A MAJOR CLASS ACTION AGENCY.

SO THAT YOU COULD GO AFTER WHOLE CLASSES OF DISCRIMINATION AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT I DISCOVERED AT THE COMMISSION WAS THAT SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN JOBS, BONNIE WAS CLOSE TO SEXUAL SAVAGERY IF A BOSS OR A SUPERVISOR WANTED TO.

AND IT INTIMIDATED WOMEN ENORMOUSLY TO COME FORWARD AND ESSENTIALLY RECOUNT WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM NOT THAT SOMEBODY PINCHED THEM ON THE BEHIND BUT OFTEN MUCH WORSE.

CAPTURED THEM IN A BANK VAULT AND WOULD NOT LET THEM OUT.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

HOW DO YOU MAKE WOMEN RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE A RIGHT BUT IT CAN'T BE VINDICATED IF THEY DON'T SEEK TO ENFORCE IT?

WELL, I DECIDED I HAD TO ISSUE SEXUAL HARASSMENT GUIDELINES.

AND THIS THE EMPLOYERS WERE NOT READY FOR.

SO I CALLED THEM ALL IN.

AND I SAID THIS IS GOING TO PROTECT YOU.

BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO DESCRIBE WHAT SEXUAL HARASSMENT IS.

SO YOU WILL KNOW WHEN TO HOLD SOMEBODY ACCOUNTABLE AND HOW TO EDUCATE YOUR EMPLOYEES AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY MAY BE SUBMITTING YOU TO LIABILITY FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

IT WAS AN IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH.

THE GUIDELINES WERE VINDICATED BY THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES.

STILL A LOT OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN OUR SOCIETY, GUIDELINES WERE VERY IMPORTANT STEP FORWARD.

WITHOUT PUTTING THE ONUS ENTIRELY ON THE WOMAN TO COME FORWARD PUTTING THE GUIDELINES AND PUTTING THE ONUS THEREFORE ON THEON THE EMPLOYER TO SET OUT POLICIES.

IT IS TRUE THAT EMPLOYERS WOKE UP VERY FAST TO PREVENTATIVE MEASURES.

WHO WANTS TO BE SUED?

EITHER FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT OR SEX DISCRIMINATION?

CERTAINLY NOT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.

SO, YES, EMPLOYERS WOULD RATHER SPEND THE MONEY UP FRONT TRAINING THEIR SUPERVISORS AND MANAGERS THAN PAYING A LAWYER TO DEFEND THEM ONCE THEIR REPUTATION IS SULLIED BY SUCH A LAWSUIT.

EVEN IF THEY ARE VINDICATED.

CLASS ACTION AGAINST YOU ASK "NEWSWEEK".

WE WERE VERY [INAUDIBLE] THE FAMOUS PUBLISHER OF THE "WASHINGTON POST" AS WELL AS "NEWSWEEK" WAS, OF COURSE, THE HEAD WOMAN IN CHARGE.

HER CONSCIOUSNESS HAD NOT BEEN RAISED YET THEN EITHER.

IT WAS SUBSEQUENTLY RAISED I GOT TO KNOW HER AND BECAME A FRIEND OF HERS.

BUT AT THE FIRST NEGOTIATION FOR "NEWSWEEK" ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT YOU DO WHEN YOU BRING A COMPLAINT AGAINST A COMPANY IS YOU SEEK TO NEGOTIATE YOUR WAY OUT OF IT.

USUALLY YOU HAVE TO GO FURTHER AND WE DID IN THIS CASE.

BUT I INSISTED THAT KATHERINE GRAHAM BE THERE FOR THE FIRST NEGOTIATION.

>> VERY STRATEGIC THINKING.

>> YES.

AND IT TURNED OUT THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE STRATEGY.

I WAS PREGNANT.

AND SO THE MEN AT "NEWSWEEK" DID NOT KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THIS BIG BELLIED LAWYER WHO CAME IN.

AND SHALL WE OFFER HER A SEAT HOW SHALL WE TREAT HER?

THEY FINALLY SAID GOD, LET'S GET HER A CHAIR THEN THEY SAT ON THE COUCH AND THE PROBLEM WITH OFFERING ME A CHAIR WHILE THEY SAT ON A COUCH IS THAT THE CHAIR SAT ME ABOVE THEM LOOKING DOWN ON THEM.

>> AND THAT WAS A PROBLEM?

OR A BENEFIT?

>> FOR ME?

ALL IS WELL THAT ENDED WELL THERE.

BUT IT WAS IMPORTANT CASE BECAUSE IT SPAWNED SUITS OF THIS KIND THROUGHOUT THE ANNALS OF AMERICAN JOURNALISM AND GAVE WOMEN IN OTHER CATEGORIES OF WORK THE GUMMION TO SUE.

>> YOU WERE CHAIR OF THE EEOC AND NOW YOU HAVE BEEN IN CONGRESS FOR 12 SESSIONS, 24 YEARS.

YOU GOT HERE BEFORE NEWT GINGRICH TOOK OVER.

>> YES.

>> I WAS COVERING CONGRESS AND THAT WAS A MASSIVE CHANGE.

THE DEMOCRATS HAD BEEN IN CHARGE OF THE CHAMBER FOR 40 YEARS.

AND THEY WERE GOOD FRIENDS WITH THE REPUBLICANS WHO WERE LARGELY MODERATE REPUBLICANS.

WHO BARELY EXIST IN THE PARTY NOW.

>> THE CHANGE OCCURRED AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL AND I DECIDED THAT I COULD NOT LET THAT HAPPEN TO THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

ONE OF THE BEST EXPERIENCES I'VE HAD AS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS IS GETTING TO KNOW NEWT GINGRICH.

WE HAD SOMETHING IN COMMON.

BY THE TIME I CAME TO CONGRESS, I HAD BEEN A TENURED PROFESSOR AT LAW AT GEORGETOWN.

I STILL TEACH ONE COURSE THERE BECAUSE I LEFT A LOT OF MY BRAIN THERE.

AND NEWT GINGRICH IS NOTHING IF NOT A UNIVERSITY INTELLECTUAL.

SO I DID NOT THINK I COULD HURT MYSELF BY GOING TO TALK TO HIM.

I BEGAN TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ABOUT WANTING TO WORK WITH HIM HOPING THAT HE WOULD APPLY THE PRINCIPLES REMEMBER HE TAUGHT AMERICAN HISTORY OF OUR OWN HISTORY.

NEWT GINGRICH WAS AS HELPFUL TO ME AS ANY SPEAKER HAS EVER BEEN.

HE BECAME INTERESTED.

I THINK INTELLECTUALLY INTERESTED IN HIS ROLE AS SPEAKER.

AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE CONGRESS TO THE NATION'S CAPITOL PERHAPS THE BEST STORY ABOUT NEWT IS THAT DURING HIS TENURE THEY CLOSED THE GOVERNMENT DOWN REPEATEDLY.

AND AFTER THEY CLOSE TO DO DOWN HOW COULD YOU HAVE CLOSE TO DO DOWN?

THE DISTRICT HAD TO BRING ITS OWN BUDGET OVER TO THE CONGRESS TO THE CONGRESS PASS ON IT BEFORE WE COULD SPEND OUR MONEY.

WE WERE CAUGHT INTO IT EVEN THOUGH WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOVERNMENT CLOSING DOWN.

SO OK, I TELL YOU WHAT ELEANOR IF WE HAVE TO CLOSE IT AGAIN, WE'LL KEEP IT THE DISTRICT OPEN.

SURE ENOUGH IT CLOSED AGAIN AND THEN AGAIN AND IT MUST HAVE BEEN FOUR OR FIVE TIMES.

EACH TIME THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE SO-CALLED CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTION THAT EXCLUDED THE DISTRICT FROM BEING CLOSED DOWN.

THERE CAME A TIME WHEN THE CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTION DID NOT SAY EXCEPT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

I SAID, OH, MY, GOD, NEWT YOU PROMISED ME?

HE SAID IT'S NOT IN THERE?

AND I SAID NO.

HE SAID STAFF MUST HAVE MADE A MISTAKE.

TELL YOU WHAT ELEANOR, YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING TELL THEM TO KEEP IT OPEN.

SO THE DISTRICT DID NOT CLOSE DOWN.

I HAVE HAD TO LEARN TO WORK WITH REPUBLICANS.

AND CERTAINLY THE HOUSE.

THEY KNOW WHO I AM WHEN IT COMES TO NATIONAL ISSUES I AM NOT WITH THEM.

BUT IT IS NOT BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND REPUBLICANS TO WORK WITH INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT TO BE SURE, ON MATTERS AFFECTING THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

AND I HAVE HE HAD A LOT BETTER LUCK IN FINDING REPUBLICANS TO WORK WITH NOT TO MENTION DEMOCRATS WHO HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE MORE OFTEN IN THE SENATE.

TO JUST HAVE TO WORK WITH THE HAND YOU ARE DEALT.

THAT IS LIFE.

>> SO YOU HAVE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT AND LEARNED HOW TO GET BEYOND FIGHTS AND COOPERATE.

NOW, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION YOU WILL HAVE THE FIGHT OF YOUR LIFE.

>> I AM AFRAID SO.

LEARN TO GET BEYOND FIGHTS AND NOT SO MUCH COOPERATE BUT FIND WAYS TO NEGOTIATE.

I HOPE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS AS OPEN AS HIS MIND SEEMS TO BE.

HE IS BEREST OF POLICY.

HE IS OF MORE THAN ONE MIND OF SO MANY MATTERS.

MY PROBLEM IS MORE OFTEN THAN THE PRESIDENT IT IS THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES ITSELF.

SO WE MAY FIND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS DOING WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP THEM FROM DOING THUS FAR, WIPING OUT ALL THE GUN LAWS OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

IMAGINE WHAT POSITION THAT WOULD LEAVE THE GREAT CITY IN.

BECAUSE LARGE CITIES ARE WHERE YOU HAVE MORE GUNS AND MORE GUN CRIMES.

SO I COULD BE FACED WITH THAT.

HAVE BEEN FACED WITH IT EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

AND HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEAT IT DOWN AND I WILL HAVE THAT WITH THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HE WILL HAVE TO PUT THINGS IN THE BUDGET AFFECTING THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ALTHOUGH IT PAYS FOR ITSELF.

THERE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT DO DEPEND UPON THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET.

SO I AM GOING TO HAVE TO BE IN TOUCH WITH HIM.

AND WORK WITH HIM.

>> YOU ONCE SAID THAT IF WOMEN WERE TO -- WOULD BECOME HALF OR MORE OF CONGRESS AND YOU STILL DID BUSINESS THE SAME WAY AS YOU HAVE FOREVER THAT WOULD NOT BE PROGRESS.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN?

>> YES.

NOT ENOUGH FOR ONE FOR YOU AND ONE FOR ME.

YOU WANT WOMEN WHO ARE ESPECIALLY ATTUNED TO THE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT ARE FACING WOMEN.

IT'S VERY INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT I GUESS 3-1 WE HAVE DEMOCRATIC WOMEN TO REPUBLICAN WOMEN.

REPUBLICANS DO NOT TEND TO ELECT WOMEN TO CONGRESS.

AND WHEN THEY DO, THEY TEND TO GO RIGHT ALONG WITH THE MEN.

HAVING SEEN THAT, I DON'T THINK IT'S ENOUGH SIMPLY TO SAY ALL WE NEED IS HALF THE CONGRESS TO BE WOMEN AND EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE GOOD.

>> WHAT DO YOU WANT YOUR LEGACY TO BE SEEN AS?

>> CONTINUING.

I DON'T THINK OF MYSELF IN LEGACY TERMS YET.

BUT I DO THINK I'VE HAD THE BEST OF WHAT MEYER RA HAD TO OFFER -- MY ERA HAD TO OFFER.

I WAS PART OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND TO COME HOME AND TO APPLY WHAT I LEARNED AND DID AS A FIGHTER IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO REPRESENTING MY CITY WHICH IS PERHAPS THE ONE JURISDICTION IN THE UNITED STATES THAT MOST NEEDS A FIGHTER.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> IT'S BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE THE -- THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS THE CITIZENS OF EVERY OTHER PART OF THE UNITED STATES.

NUMBER ONE, BONNIE, NUMBER ONE PER CAPITA, IN THE AMOUNT OF FEDERAL TAXES PAID TO SUPPORT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

I HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS EXCEPT THAT FINAL VOTE ON THE HOUSE FLOOR.

I CAN CHAIR COMMITTEES AND GO ON THE FLOOR AND DO ANYTHING ANYBODY ELSE CAN DO.

BUT WHAT IS EMBLEMATIC OF YOUR CITIZENSHIP IS SOMEBODY THAT CAN RAISE THEIR HAND FOR YOU WHEN IT COMES TIME TO VOTE ON POLICY AND THE DISTRICT DOES NOT HAVE AND WE ARE STRIVING TO WE CAN THE 51ST STATE OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WILL HAPPEN?

>> IT MAY NOT HAPPEN TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY BUT IT WILL HAPPEN.

>> ALL RIGHT.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME THIS HAS BEEN WONDERFUL CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO TALK WITH YOU, BONNIE.

[♪♪] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF THE TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

[♪♪]