♪.

TED: COMING UP IN THE NEXT HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS ON ARIZONA PBS.

ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," THIS WEEK'S JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE LOOKS AT THE LATEST CURIOUS MOVE IN THE STATE SENATE'S PUSH TO AUDIT MARICOPA COUNTY'S NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESULTS.

>>> ON CRONKITE NEWS, SPECIAL EDITION LOOKING HOW POLITICS, EDUCATION AND THE CORONAVIRUS ARE INTERTWINED.

COMING UP IN THE NEXT HOUR OF ARIZONA PBS.

ANNOUNCER: THIS HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE FRIENDS OF PBS.

THANK YOU.

TED: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON," I'M TED SIMONS.

A U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER WAS KILLED AND ANOTHER INJURED TODAY AFTER THEY WERE HIT BY A VEHICLE THAT RAMMED A BARRICADE NEAR THE CAPITOL BUILDING.

POLICE SAY AFTER HITTING THE OFFICERS AND CRASHING INTO THE BARRICADE, A MAN EXITED HIS VEHICLE WITH A KNIFE AND STARTED LUNGING, AT WHICH POINT POLICE OPENED FIRE, KILLING THE SUSPECT.

>> AT THIS TIME, THE SUSPECT HAS BEEN PRONOUNCED DECEASED.

TWO U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICERS WERE TRANSPORTED TO TWO DIFFERENT HOSPITALS, AND IT IS WITH A VERY, VERY HEAVY HEART THAT I ANNOUNCE ONE OF OUR OFFICERS HAS SUCCUMBED TO HIS INJURIES.

TED: TODAY'S ATTACK COMES LESS THAN THREE MONTHS AFTER THE JANUARY 6 RIOT AT THE CAPITOL THAT LEFT FIVE PEOPLE DEAD.

>>> OTHER NEWS, ARIZONA'S LARGEST VACCINATION SITE AT GLENDALE STATE FARM STADIUM WILL TRANSITION INDOORS TO NEARBY GILA RIVER ARENA ON APRIL 23, TO AVOID THE INCREASING DAYTIME HEAT.

IT WILL OPERATE FROM 7:00 A.M. TO 7:00 P.M. WITH THE CAPACITY TO ADMINISTER 1,000 SHOTS PER HOUR.

>>> IF YOU ARE FULLY VACCINATED ALREADY, IT'S OKAY TO TRAVEL AGAIN.

THE GUIDELINES SAY THAT FULLY VACCINATED PEOPLE CAN TRAVEL WITHIN THE U.S.

WITHOUT GETTING TESTED FOR COVID OR GOING INTO QUARANTINE AFTER ARRIVING AT DESTINATION.

CDC IS STILL ADVISING AGAINST TRAVEL FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED.

>>> ARIZONA NOW REPORTS THAT 17% OF THE ADULT POPULATION IS NOW FULLY VACCINATED, WITH 30% RECEIVING AT LEAST ONE DOSE.

THAT CLOSELY REFLECTS NATIONAL AVERAGES.

STATES REPORTED NUMBER OF NEW COVID CASES WENT UP A LITTLE BIT TODAY.

940 ON RECORD.

ARIZONA'S SEVEN-DAY AVERAGE OF NEW CASES IS AMONG THE BEST IN THE COUNTRY BUT THE SEVEN-DAY RATE OF COVID FATALITIES HIGHER THAN MOST STATES WITH 12 MORE DEATHS CERTIFIED TODAY.

>>> THE U.S. ADDED 916,000 JOBS IN MARCH, MORE THAN TWICE THE NUMBER FROM THE PREVIOUS MONTH AND THE BEST JOBS REPORT SINCE LAST AUGUST, ECONOMISTS CREDIT THE GROWING INCREASE TO VACCINATIONS AND LATEST INFUSION OF FEDERAL AID FROM THE STIMULUS PACKAGE.

>>> BORDER APHENSIONS OF UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN HIT AN ALL-TIME HIGH, PRELIMINARY GOVERNMENT FIGURES SHOW 19,000 CHILDREN ENTERED U.S.

CUSTODY IN MARCH, PREVIOUS HIGH OF 12,000 IN MAY OF 2019.

TOTAL APHENSIONS ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER INCREASED 70% MOST WERE SINGLE ADULTS EXPELLED TO MEXICO OR BACK TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES.

>>> AND TESTIMONY TODAY AT THE DEREK CHAUVIN MURDER TRIAL OF GEORGE FLOYD INCLUDED THE TOP LIEUTENANT AND LONGEST SERVING POLICE OFFICER OF THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT SAYING THAT CHAUVIN'S ACTION IN RESTRAINING FLOYD WERE, QUOTE, UNNECESSARY AND UNCALLED FOR.

>> HAVE YOU EVER, IN ALL THE YEARS YOU'VE BEEN WORKING FOR THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT, BEEN TRAINED TO KNEEL ON THE NECK OF SOMEONE WHO IS HANDCUFFED BEHIND THEIR BACK IN THE PRONE POSITION?

>> NO, I HAVEN'T.

>> IS THAT, IF THAT WERE DONE, WOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED FORCE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHAT LEVEL OF FORCE MIGHT THAT BE?

>> THAT WOULD BE THE TOP TIER, THE DEADLY FORCE.

>> WHY?

>> BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IF YOUR KNEE IS ON A PERSON'S NECK, THAT CAN KILL THEM.

TED: THE LIEUTENANT ADDED THAT CHAUVIN'S ACTIONS WERE A VIOLENCE OF DEPARTMENT POLICY.

>>> TIME FOR THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE.

THE STATE SENATE THIS WEEK RAISED QUESTIONS AND EYEBROWS WITH SELECTION OF COMPANIES TO AUDIT MARICOPA COUNTY'S NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESULTS.

FOR THAT AND MORE, WE WELCOME JIM SMALL OF THE "ARIZONA MIRROR" AND ANDREW OXFORD OF "THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC."

GENTLEMEN, GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

A VERY BUSY WEEK.

JIM, START WITH YOU, THE "ARIZONA MIRROR," YOU BROKE A BIG STORY THIS WEEK REGARDING THE AUDIT FIRM, THE SENATE FINALLY DECIDES ON A TEAM OF AUDIT FIRMS, WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THE COMPANIES?

>> WHAT WE FOUND OUT IS TWO MONTHS AGO, THE SENATE ANNOUNCED THEY HIRED A COMPANY AND FOUND OUT IT WAS THIS FIRM THAT WAS TIED TO ALL OF THE PRO-TRUMP STOP THE STEAL MOVEMENT AND REALLY STARTED A LOT OF THOSE LIES AND STORIES THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THAT AND HELPED DISSEMINATE THEM AND THE SENATE BACKED OFF AND SAID WHOA, WE CAN'T DO THIS BECAUSE IT LOOKS BAD, BASICALLY, AND TURNED AROUND THIS WEEK AND HIRED ANOTHER COMPANY DIRECTLY TIED TO THE STOP THE STEAL MOVEMENT, WITH AN OWNER WHO SPENT MONTHS ON SOCIAL MEDIA TALKING ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM DONALD TRUMP, AND HOW DOMINION VOTING MACHINES FLIPPED BALLOTS, AND HOW THERE WERE ALL OF THESE PHANTOM VOTERS WHO SHOWED UP AND HOW JOE BIDEN WON THROUGH FRAUD.

ALL OF WHICH HAS NO EVIDENCE, AND THERE'S BEEN NOTHING TO PROVE THAT AND ANY ATTEMPTS TO DO THAT IN THE COURTS HAVE ALL BEEN KICKED OUT, AND YET THE SENATE HIRED THIS FIRM AND HAD THE AUDACITY TO SAY THEY TOOK GREAT PAINS TO HIRE SOMEBODY WHO WASN'T CONNECTED TO THE MOVEMENT AND TRULY WAS GOING TO BE AN INDEPENDENT AUDITOR.

TED: YOU FOUND OUT THIS GROUP, THE COMPANY IS CALLED CYBER NINJA, YOU FOUND THEY WERE CONNECTED IN WHAT, THROUGH TEN MINUTES THROUGH THE INTERNET?

>> TOOK, WITHIN LESS THAN AN HOUR, A DOZEN TWEETS FROM THE OWNER.

HE DELETED HIS TWITTER ACCOUNT IN MID-JANUARY.

IT DID NOT TAKE VERY LONG TO FIGURE OUT THAT THIS FIRM WAS OWNED BY SOMEBODY WHO WAS ALREADY FIRMLY COMMITTED TO THE IDEA THAT THE ELECTION WAS FRAUDULENT.

EVEN IF YOU LOOK AT SCOPE OF WORK THAT THE SENATE HAS AGREED TO WITH THIS COMPANY, IT'S PEPPERED WITH ESSENTIALLY STARTING FROM THE ASSUMPTION THAT THERE ARE FRAUDULENT VOTES.

THAT THERE WERE HUGE PROBLEMS WITH REGISTRATION.

THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS THEY'RE GOING TO FIND AND THE SCOPE OF WORK IS ESSENTIALLY SET OUT TO SAY HERE'S THE PROBLEMS WE THINK WE'RE GOING TO FIND WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS THING, AND HERE'S SHF THE WORK WE'VE DONE IN THE PAST, OR WE'RE GOING TO BRING IN EXPERT ANALYSTS TO DO THIS, AND SO I THINK WE'RE ALL WAITING TO SEE WHAT IS THAT GOING TO MEAN, AND IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A COMPANY THAT IS OWNED BY SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN YELLING FROM THE ROOFTOPS THAT THE ELECTION IS STOLEN?

IS IT FEASIBLE FOR THE COMPANY TO DO AN HONEST INDEPENDENT AUDIT.

TED: ANDREW, THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE AN INDEPENDENT AUDIT?

>> AND LOOKING AT AN INDEPENDENT AUDIT, IS IT FEASIBLE TO DO WHAT THE COMPANY IS PROMISING AT ALL?

I THINK IT TALKS ABOUT COMPLETING AUDIT OF 2.1 MILLION BALLOTS IN 20 DAYS.

I HEARD SKEPTICISM FROM ELECTION OFFICIALS, POLITICAL CONSULTANTS WHO FOLLOW ELECTION PROCESSES THAT THIS IS EVEN REALLY POSSIBLE ON THAT TIMELINE, AND REMEMBER THE BUDGET, THE STATE SAID IT'S PAYING $150,000 FOR THIS.

NOW I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF A BETTER USE FOR $150,000, BUT I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE SKEPTICAL THAT YOU CAN DO THIS MASSIVE UNDERTAKING FOR THAT BUDGET.

THESE CAN BE FAIRLY EXPENSIVE PROCESSES.

TED: WITH THAT IN MIND, JIM, BACK TO YOU, WHAT REACTION ARE WE GETTING FROM SENATE PRESIDENT FANN, NOW THAT THE INFORMATION IS OUT HERE.

THE MARICOPA COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING TO THIS?

>> SENATE PRESIDENT FANN HAS NOT ANSWERED QUESTIONS, AT ALL SINCE THEY MADE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.

WE HEARD FROM SENATE MAJORITY LEADER -- SENATE JUDICIARY CHAIRMAN WARREN PETERSON, AND DEFENSE WAS YOU ARE BIASED FOR LOOKING AT THEIR TWEETS, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN DO, AND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE TWEETS SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN IT'S AN ENDORSEMENT OF SOMETHING.

IF THAT'S THE DEFENSE YOU HAVE, THAT'S THE DEFENSE YOU HAVE.

YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, THEY HAD AN EMERGENCY MEETING YESTERDAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING, AND THEY CAME OUT OF IT AND DIDN'T ANNOUNCE ANYTHING AND IT'S UNCLEAR WHAT THEY CAN DO, THEY SEEM COMMITTED TO NOT LETTING THE SENATE USE FACILITIES TO CONDUCT THE AUDIT.

SENATE HAS INSISTED THEY PLAN AT DOING IT AT MARICOPA COUNTY ELECTIONS DEPARTMENT, NOT A CHANCE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT.

LET US KNOW WHERE YOU WANT THE BALLOTS AND MACHINES DROPPED OFF.

HAVE FUN WITH THIS.

TED: SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET IT DONE BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION.

YOU MIGHT AS WELL KEEP THE BOXES.

LET'S MOVE ON HERE, AND BY THE WAY, GREAT JOB BY THE "ARIZONA MIRROR" BREAKING THAT STORY THIS WEEK.

ANDREW, WE HAD A COUPLE OF ABORTION MEASURES IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE THAT ARE GETTING MOVEMENT.

TALK WITH US ABOUT THOSE.

>> THE CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY ON THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, YOU SEE CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERS REALLY CONFIDENT THIS YEAR THAT THEY CAN PUSH FORWARD WITH MUCH MORE SWEEPING RESTRICTIONS ON ABORTION THAN COURTS HAVE BEEN WILLING TO UPHOLD IN THE PAST.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE SAW ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT, THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE PASSED HOUSE BILL 2140 WHICH PRETTY MUCH BANS VIRTUALLY ALL ABORTIONS AFTER SIX TO EIGHT WEEKS, THE HEARTBEAT LAW, THE IDEA IS A DOCTOR COULDN'T PERFORM AN ABORTION ONCE A FETAL HEART BEAT IS DETECTED.

THIS WOULD GO MUCH FURTHER THAN THE BAN ARIZONA USED TO HAVE IN PLACE ON ABORTIONS IN 20 WEEKS WHICH WAS STRUCK DOWN IN COURT, BUT IT'S TELLING THAT DURING THE HEARING WEDNESDAY NIGHT, YOU HEARD CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKERS CONSIDER CONFIDENT THAT COURTS WILL LOOK ON THIS VERY DIFFERENTLY NOW THAN JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.

YOU ALSO SAW THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES PASS A BILL ON THURSDAY, SENATE BILL 1457 WHICH BANS FORCES FOR GENETIC ABNORMALITIES, INCLUDES A NUMBER OF OTHER PROVISIONS INCLUDING BANNING THE DELIVERY OF MEDICATIONS THAT CAN INDUCE ABORTION.

THOSE ARE GIVING YOU -- WITH MISCARRIAGES, DEMOCRATS RAISED CONCERNS THAT WOULD BE A CRUEL BURDEN ON WOMEN WHO NEED DELIVERY OF THE MEDICATIONS FOR THAT CARE, IF REPUBLICANS CUT OFF THE BAIT ON THAT ISSUE WHEN THE DEMOCRATS RAISED THE ISSUE OF MISCARRIAGES.

YOU ARE SEEING THE ISSUE JUMP BACK TO THE FORE OF THE LEGISLATION THIS SESSION.

TED: JIM, IS THIS A SITUATION WHERE EITHER OR BOTH OF THE MEASURES PASS THEM AND SEE WHAT THE COURTS DO?

IS THIS THROWING IT UP THERE, LET THE COURTS TAKE IT FROM THERE?

>> I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE IDEA IS, AND IT'S SOMETHING, THESE ARE IDEAS THAT HAVE BEEN PERCOLATING AROUND THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT FOR A LONG TIME, AND IN RECENT YEARS, OTHER STATES TOOK THE FOREFRONT ON TRYING TO PUSH THE ISSUES TO THE SUPREME COURT, AND LOOKS LIKE, I THINK LAST YEAR OR THE YEAR BEFORE, WE DID REPORTING ON THAT, AND A LOT OF THE PRO-LIFE GROUPS IN ARIZONA WEREN'T READY TO TAKE THE STEPS, BUT CLEARLY I THINK THEY LOOK AT THE SUPREME COURT, LIKE ANDREW SAID, AND THEY SEE THE SOLID CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY WITH JUSTICES THAT ARE EXPECTED TO BE ON THE COURT FOR DECADES AS WELL.

AND THEY FEEL THAT THE TIME IS RIGHT TO GO AHEAD AND JUMP INTO THE FRAY ON THAT.

TED: AND ANDREW, I IMAGINE THE GOVERNOR WOULD AGREE ON THAT, THE PARTICULAR SCHEMATIC?

>> YEAH, THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT LEGISLATION AND A LOT OF THE BILLS I DON'T THINK WERE INEVITABLE THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE SO-CALLED HEARTBEAT LAW I WAS TALKING ABOUT, THAT DIDN'T GET A LOT OF TRACTION IN THE SENATE EARLIER IN THE SESSION, BUT WAS BROUGHT BACK AS A STRIKE EVERYTHING AND SORT OF AT THE LAST MOMENT IN THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE, NOT THE HEALTH COMMITTEE WHICH IS WHERE THIS WOULD ORDINARILY BE HEARD, YOU ARE SEEING MANEUVERING AT THE LEGISLATURE TO PUSH IT THROUGH.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE INEVITABLE EARLIER IN THE YEAR.

TED: JIM, LET'S WRAP IT UP WITH MARK FINCHEM ANNOUNCING HE WANTS TO RUN FOR THE TOP ELECTION OFFICIAL IN THE STATE, THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

THIS IS A MAN WHO WAS AT THE JANUARY 6 RALLY THAT PRECEDED THE CAPITOL RIOT, TRUE?

>> TRUE, AND HE WAS ALSO AT THE SCENE OF THE CAPITOL AS PEOPLE STORMED IT, ALTHOUGH HE DID NOT STORM IT HIMSELF, NO EVIDENCE OF THAT, AND HE DENIED THAT AND SAID HE WAS SEVERAL HUNDRED YARDS AWAY THE WHOLE TIME.

BUT HE VOICED THE COURT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WERE STORMING THE CAPITOL.

THIS IS A MAN WHO WE REPORTED WAS AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE STOP THE STEAL MOVEMENT IN ARIZONA.

HE ORGANIZED A LEGISLATIVE HEARING IN NOVEMBER, AN UNOFFICIAL LEGISLATIVE HEARING AT A HOTEL, WHERE HE BROUGHT IN TRUMP'S TEAM, AND BROUGHT IN PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED AND TALKED ALL ABOUT THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN IN ARIZONA AND ALL OF THE FRAUD AND MALFEASANCE THAT THEY CLAIM HAPPENED, AND NOW HE WANTS TO BE THE PERSON WHO'S IN CHARGE OF ALL OF ARIZONA'S ELECTIONS.

SO WE'RE ALREADY SHAPING UP TO HAVE A WILD 2022 STATEWIDE CAMPAIGN.

TED: INDEED, AND ANDREW, ARE WE GOING TO SEE ANYONE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE TAKE HIM ON?

>> SENATOR MICHELLE UGENTI-RITA, REPUBLICAN FROM SCOTTSDALE, WHO HAS BEEN AT THE FRONT WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTION POLICY AT THE LEGISLATURE HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE MOST OUTSPOKEN LAWMAKERS ON THAT ISSUE, SHE'S WIDELY ACCEPTED TO RUN FOR SECRETARY OF STATE, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER ENTRANTS, SENATOR T.J. SHOPE ENTERTAINED RUNNING FOR SECRETARY OF STATE AND PEOPLE ARE WATCHING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH REDISTRICTING.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS JUST GOING TO BE AN EASY RACE FOR FINCHEM.

TED: AND JIM, QUICKLY TO WRAP IT UP, WE WOULD SEE IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY ESPECIALLY HOW STRONG THAT WHOLE STOP THE STEAL PRO-TRUMP MOVEMENT IS, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME A GUY LIKE FINCHEM WOULD HAVE THE INSIDE TRACK ON THOSE FOLKS?

>> DEFINITELY HOW STRONG IT IS AND HOW ENDURING IT IS, RIGHT?

THIS IS AN ELECTION A FULL TWO YEARS AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION, AND CERTAINLY SEEN PUBLIC OPINION POLLS THAT SHOW REPUBLICANS IN LARGE NUMBERS DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS MASSIVE FRAUD IN THE ELECTION.

WILL THAT CONTINUE TO BE THE CASE SIX MONTHS FROM NOW OR A YEAR FROM NOW OR YEAR AND A HALF FROM NOW IS AN UNKNOWN QUESTION.

TED: JIM SMALL, THE "ARIZONA MIRROR," ANDREW OXFORD, ARIZONA REPUBLICAN.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

TED: COMING UP, A LOOK INTO THE LEGACY OF MISTRUST OF HEALTH AUTHORITIES AND MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AMONG AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

.

TED: THE TUSKEGEE STUDY WAS A SERIES OF UNETHICAL EXPERIMENTS ON BLACK MEN CONDUCTED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FROM 1932-1972.

THE STUDY LEFT A LONG LEGACY OF DISTRUST IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY THAT STILL LINGERS AND IS REFLECTED IN CONCERNS REGARDING COVID VACCINES.

"HORIZONTE" HOST JOSE CARDENAS SPOKE TO DR. OLGA IDRISS DAVIS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE STUDY AND ITS IMPACT TODAY.

>> DR. DAVIS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT AND ITS IMPLICATIONS IN MODERN DAY LIFE, BUT I WANT TO FIRST CORRECT A MISTAKE I MADE IN A PRIOR INTERVIEW WHEN I REFERRED TO THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN WHEN I MEANT TO REFER TO THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT, AND I KNOW FULL WELL THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES.

WANT TO GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY.

GIVE US AN OVERVIEW OF THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT, THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU, MR. CARDENAS HAVING ME HERE ON "HORIZON."

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE ARE AT A PARTICULAR TIME IN HISTORY LOOKING AT ISSUES AROUND BLACK LIVES, AND PARTICULARLY THE ASPECT OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND MEDICAL EXPERIMENTATION AND ISSUES PERTAINING TO HEALTH CARE AND HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AS IT RELATES TO PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND PARTICULARLY BLACK PEOPLE.

SO THE ISSUE OF THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS STUDY, EVEN THOUGH THAT HAPPENED IN 1932 TO 1972, WE ARE STILL SEEING THE REVERBERATIONS OF THAT STUDY.

BASICALLY THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT, WHICH WAS CALLED THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT OR STUDY FOR UNTREATED SYPHILIS IN THE NEGRO MALE.

SO IT WAS SPECIFICALLY FOCUSED ON BLACK MEN.

IT WAS TAKEN WHERE THERE WERE BLACK MEN WHO WERE 399 IN POPULATION WITH SYPHILIS AND 201 MEN WHO WERE WITHOUT SYPHILIS, DID NOT HAVE SYPHILIS, SO 600 BLACK MEN IN TOTAL, AND THE RESEARCHERS WHO WERE DOING THIS PARTICULAR STUDY DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GATHER THESE MEN WITH NO PATIENT INFORMED CONSENT.

THERE WAS NO UNDERSTANDING REALLY OF WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN.

RESEARCHERS TOLD THEM WE'RE STUDYING BAD BLOOD, AND BAD BLOOD WAS THIS TERM IN MACON COUNTY, ALABAMA, WHICH IS WHERE THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT BEGAN.

BAD BLOOD WAS A TERM THAT MEANT YOU MIGHT HAVE ANEMIA, YOU MIGHT HAVE FATIGUE, YOU MAY HAVE SYPHILIS, BUT THEY CALL THAT BAD BLOOD.

>> AS I UNDERSTAND, THEY WEREN'T TOLD THEY HAD SYPHILIS.

>> THEY WEREN'T TOLD THEY HAD SYPHILIS MANY TIMES AND IT'S BEEN REPORTED THEY WERE INJECTED WITH SYPHILIS TO SEE WHAT WOULD OCCUR WITH THE EXPERIMENT, AND SO THERE IS STILL SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THAT.

THERE ARE SOME VARIOUS ACCOUNTS THAT HAVE SAID INDEED THAT HAPPENS, SO THERE IS LITERATURE THAT PROVIDES EVIDENCE FOR THAT AS WELL.

BUT ANYWAY, WHAT HAPPENED WAS THESE MEN WERE TREATED, SUPPOSEDLY, FOR SYPHILIS WHEN, IN FACT, THEY WERE NOT TREATED.

THEY WERE DENIED TREATMENT FOR SYPHILIS, AND SO THE RESEARCHERS WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD OCCUR IF THEY WERE UNTREATED, HOW WOULD THE BODY REACT TO THE DISEASE OF SYPHILIS.

AND EVENTUALLY WHAT IT OCCURRED WAS THAT THEY WERE, THEY WANTED TO DOCUMENT THIS HISTORY OVER TIME, THIS NATURAL PROGRESSION OF THE DISEASE.

WHAT OCCURRED FROM THAT IS THAT MEN WERE GIVEN MEDICAL EXAMS, THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID, WE WILL GIVE TO YOU IN ALLOWANCE OF US DOING THIS STUDY.

THEY WERE GIVEN MEDICAL EXAMS, THEY WERE GIVEN FREE MEALS, AND THEN THEY WERE GIVEN BURIAL INSURANCE, WHICH, OF COURSE, MANY OF THEM PERISHED AS A RESULT OF THAT.

WE REALLY BEGAN SEEING THE FOUNDATIONS OF RACISM IN MEDICINE.

WE SAW THE MISCONDUCT OF HUMAN RESEARCH AND WE'VE SEEN ALSO THE WAY IN WHICH GOVERNMENTS, OUR PARTICULAR GOVERNMENT, I'M SAD TO SAY, HAS LOOKED THE OTHER WAY WITH REGARD TO BLACK PEOPLE.

TED: AS I UNDERSTAND IT, ONE OF THE PARTICULARLY SHAMEFUL ASPECTS OF THIS IS THAT EVEN AFTER IT BECAME KNOWN THAT PENICILLIN WAS AN EFFECTIVE TREATMENT FOR SYPHILIS, THEY WERE NOT GIVEN THE TREATMENT?

>> EXACTLY RIGHT.

SO PENICILLIN CAME RIGHT ABOUT IN, I BELIEVE IT WAS 1947.

THIS WAS WELL INTO THE STUDY, WHEN PENICILLIN WAS ALLOWED TO BE USED AND IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO BE GIVEN PENICILLIN, AND YOU MIGHT SAY WHY?

WELL, IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS A STUDY, TO SEE THE UNTREATED ASPECTS OF WHAT OCCURRED IF ONE WERE NOT TO BE TREATED BY SYPHILIS OR WITH OTHER FORMS THAT WOULD ALLOW THE SYPHILIS TO BE EXPUNGED FROM THE BODY.

>> YOU REFER TO THIS AS ONE OF A SERIES OF HISTORICAL INCIDENTS THAT RAISE ISSUES OF TRUST IN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHERS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT OF UNTREATMENT ON BLACK MALES, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FROM A HISTORICAL AND SOCIAL CONTEXT.

ONCE WE PUT THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS STUDY INTO THAT CONTEXT, WE SEE THIS HAS BEEN A LONG HISTORY OF THE WAY IN WHICH THE MEDICAL PROFESSION HAS DEALT WITH AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN TERMS OF OUR HEALTH.

THERE HAVE BEEN MEDICAL EXPERIMENTS FROM THE TIME OF SLAVERY.

WE'VE SEEN JUST TERRIBLE EXPERIMENTS, ONE OF WHICH WAS THOMAS HAMILTON DURING THE TRANSATLANTIC PERIOD, THIS WAS DURING THE ANTEBELLUM PERIOD BETWEEN THE 17th CENTURY AND THE 19th CENTURY WHERE THOMAS HAMILTON WAS A PHYSICIAN.

HE USED DIFFERENT SLAVE EXPERIMENTS TO SEE WHAT MIGHT BE THE RESPONSE OF THE BODY ON HEAT STROKE, AND SO HE MADE A PIT, PUT AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN ENSLAVED MAN INTO THE PIT AND RAISED THE HEAT FOR SEVERAL WEEKS TO SEE HOW STURDY WOULD HIS BODY BE BEFORE HE PASSED OUT AND BEFORE HE HAD OTHER ISSUES RELATED TO THE STUDY?

WHAT WAS HIS ENDURANCE?

THERE WAS -- OF COURSE, HE DIED AS A RESULT OF THESE EXPERIMENTS, BUT IT WAS BASICALLY TO ALLOW SLAVE MASTERS TO SEE HOW LONG WOULD THE BLACK BODY BE ABLE TO ENDURE HEAT AND BE ABLE TO BE OUT IN THE FIELDS?

SO THESE EXPERIMENTS CONTINUED.

ONE THAT'S VERY NOTED IS JAY MARION SIMS WHO IS CONSIDERED AS THE FATHER OF GYNECOLOGICAL EXPERIMENTS, MODERN GYNECOLOGY, AND JAY MARION SIMS CREATED THE SIMS SPECULA.

HE USED THREE ENSLAVED BLACK WOMEN IN ALABAMA FOR HIS EXPERIMENT TO REPAIR THE VAGINAL FISTULAS IN WOMEN BUT LOOKING TO EXPERIMENT IN BLACK WOMEN TO SEE HOW HE WOULD REPAIR THE FISTULAS BEFORE HE PROVIDED THIS OPPORTUNITY FOR HEALING AND REPAIR OF WHITE WOMEN WITH ANESTHESIA, WHERE HE DID NOT USE ANESTHESIA AT ALL WITH THE THREE ENSLAVED BLACK WOMEN WHO HE USED AS EXPERIMENTS.

>> LET ME ASK THIS QUESTION, BECAUSE WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME.

HOW DOES THIS HISTORY OF MISTRUST OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION, THE LEGACY OF MISTRUST, WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE TO WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH TODAY WITH THE PANDEMIC?

>> VERY GOOD QUESTION.

IT IS INDEED A LEGACY, IT IS INDEED RELATED TO ALL OF THIS.

NOT JUST THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS EXPERIMENT, BUT THE WAY THERE IS NO REGARD FOR BLACK LIFE, NO REGARD WHATSOEVER, AND THE IDEA OF BEING A GUINEA PIG AND NOT TRUSTING THE MEDICAL PROFESSION IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY REAL TODAY.

JUST YESTERDAY, I FOUND THAT, AND THIS IS DOCUMENTED ABC NEWS DID A REPORT REGARDING IN OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA JUST EARLIER THIS WEEK, ABOUT 6900 PEOPLE GOT THE LESSER DOSE OF THE COVID-19 VACCINE, AND YOU MAY SAY WELL, THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYONE.

WELL, AS WE ALL KNOW, THERE'S GREATER PERCENTAGE OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO RESIDE IN OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA.

THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN SAN FRANCISCO OR MARIN COUNTY, OR IN OTHER MORE ESTEEMED, AFFLUENT AREAS BUT RATHER IN OAKLAND, SO THERE IS SOME CONCERN ABOUT THAT.

>> I APOLOGIZE, BUT WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

BUT WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT, THIS TROUBLING LEGACY AND WHAT IT MEANS AND WHAT PERHAPS WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, DR. OLGA DAVIS ASSOCIATE DEAN AT BARRETT HONORS COLLEGE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, SUBMIT QUESTIONS, COMMENTS AND CONCERNS VIA E-MAIL AT -- .

TED: THAT IS IT FOR NOW, I'M TED SIMONS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

.

>>> COMING UP IN THE NEXT HALF HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS ON ARIZONA PBS, ON CRONKITE NEWS, THE CDC'S NEW TRAVEL GUIDANCE FOR THOSE WHO ARE FULLY VACCINATED?