>> COMING UP IN THE NEXT HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS ON ARIZONA PBS, ON ARIZONA HORIZON, IT'S THE JOURNALIST'S ROUNDTABLE, WHERE WE BREAK DOWN VOUCHERS IN SCHOOLS.

AND SPORT'S BETTING HAS TAKEN OVER ARIZONA.

GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO ARIZONA HORIZON.

IT'S FRIDAY AND THAT MEANS IT'S TIME FOR THE JOURNALIST'S ROUNDTABLE AND JOINING US, WE HAVE MARY JO PITZEL AND CAMERON AND WE'RE GOING TALK ALL OF THE INITIATIVE HALF HOUR BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT FOR MOST OF THIS AND WE'RE GOING TO START OFF AND JOE, ABOUT THE FACT WE HAVE A JUDGE WHO HAS THROWN OUT AN INITIATIVE SAYING THAT VOTERS CAN'T DECIDE ON TAX ISSUES.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> THIS IS A RULING, ACTUALLY AN OPINION ISSUED BY THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT AND IT EXPLAINS WHY BACK IN APRIL, THEY SAID THAT A PROPOSITION 307 COULD NOT BE ON THE BALLOT.

TODAY'S OPINION SAYS YOU CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE, BASICALLY, ACCORDING TO OUR CONSTITUTION, YOU CANNOT REFER TAX MEASURES BACK TO THE VOTERS.

THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE.

>> ISSUES THAT WHAT WE RELATE SUPPORT AND MAINTENANCE, I GUESS ARE THE KEY WORDS, JIM.

>> SPECIFICALLY ANYTHING DEALING WITH EXITING GOVERNMENT EXISTING GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, IF THERE WAS SOMETHING TO, SAY, A NEW STATE AGENCY, THEN THAT IS SOMETHING REFERRED.

THAT WAS THE DISTINCTION THEY DREW, WAS THAT IT EXISTING TO PROSPECTIVE AND NOT EXISTING THINGS.

>> CAMERON, HOW IS THIS DOING TO THE CAPITOL RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BILLS NOW UNDERSTANDING THEY CAN'T BE OVERTURNED BY THE VOTERS?

>> THE REPUBLICANS ARE HAPPY AND THEY LIKE THAT CONTROL, VOTER INITIATIVE, IT WAS A PAIN IN THE BUTT.

THE REPUBLICAN TAX CUT IS SOMETHING THEY'VE BEEN WANTING AND IT WAS A BIG VICTORY WHEN THE JUDGE FIRST SAID, OK, YES, IT GETS TO STAND.

HAPPY REPUBLICANS, SAD DEMOCRATS.

>> I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, HOW DOES THIS AFFECT OTHER INITIATIVES?

>> WELL, IF OTHER INITIATIVES, IF THEY INVOLVE A TAX INCREASE, RIGHT NOW, CITIZENS CAN RUN A PETITION AND SAY WE WANT TO RAISE TAXES BY X AMOUNT OR WHATEVER.

THERE IS A PROPOSAL ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER THAT SAYS THAT IF THERE'S A CITIZEN INITIATIVE THAT WANTS TO RAISE TAXES, IT NEEDS 60% OF THE VOTE.

>> A REFERENDUM AS OPPOSED TO AN INITIATIVE.

OR THIS IS AN INITIATIVE?

>> THIS IS REFERRED BY THE LEGISLATURE AND THEY WANT TO HOLD CITIZENS TO THE SAME STANDARDS FOR RAISING TAXES WHICH AND A TWO-THIRDS VOTE.

I WAS GOING TO ADD SOME OF THE REACTION IS THAT THIS COULD MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO RAISE TAXES AT ALL.

THIS BALLOT INITIATIVE WAS LOOKING AT FREEZING, UNDOING TAX CUT THAT WOULD HAVE KEPT THINGS AT THE STATUS QUO.

BUT DAVID LUAN SAYS, LOOK, HOW WILL WE RAISE TAXES WHERE THE DAY COMES WE MIGHT NEED MORE MONEY FOR STATE GOVERNMENT NEEDS, THAT WE HAVE FEWER AND FEWER OPTIONS GIVEN THIS RULING, GIVEN THE TAX MEASURES CAN'T BE REFERRED AND GIVEN THIS MEASURE THAT'S GOING TO BE ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER, WHICH WE'LL SEE WHAT VOTERS DECIDE ON IT, BUT IT COULD RAISE THE THRESHOLD FOR A TAX INCREASE?

>> AND JIM, ISN'T THIS GOING TO BE A SITUATION WHERE SO MANY INITIATIVES HAVE TAX IMPACTS, CORRECT?

SO ISN'T THIS GOING TO BE THE STANDARD NOW OF HOW TO GO AFTER AN INITIATIVE?

>> WELL, MAYBE.

THIS SPECIFICALLY APPLIES TO WHETHER VOTERS CAN TAKE THEM INTO LEGISLATURE AND PUT IT TO A PUBLIC VOTE WHICH WE'RE SEEING AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WITH THE SCHOOL VOUCHERS AND SCHOOL EMPOWERMENT ACCOUNTS.

I THINK WHAT WAS SURPRISING ABOUT THIS RULING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THE FACT THAT THE COURT SAID THIS DIDN'T INCLUDE RAISING REVENUE, RIGHT, TO PAY FOR STATE GOVERNMENT.

THIS INCLUDED CUTTING REVENUE TO PAY FOR STATE GOVERNMENT.

THE COURT'S OPINION WAS THAT SUPPORT AND MAINTENANCE OF THE STATE AGENCIES AND THE STATE BUDGET INCLUDES BOTH REVENUE ADDED AND REVENUE TAKEN AWAY.

THEREFORE, VOTERS DON'T HAVE A SAY FOR IT OTHER THAN TO, MAYBE, ELECT DIFFERENT LAWMAKERS IF THEY DISAGREE WITH WHAT LAWMAKERS ARE DOING.

>> I SAID THIS WOULD BE THE INITIATIVE HALF HOUR BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES RELATED TO INITIATIVE.

WE SHOULD DEFINE "INITIATIVE."

PETITIONS ARE PASSED, SIGNATURES ARE GATHERED AND A REFERENDUM IS SOMETHING THE LEGISLATURE WOULD REFER.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT INITIATIVES, THINGS THAT THE VOTERS BEFORE FORWARD.

A JUDGE HAS DISQUALIFIED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SIGNATURES ON A PARTICULAR SET OF ISSUES FOR AN INITIATIVE AND DEALING WITH ELECTION LAWS.

AND FIRST OF ALL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BILL IN WHAT IT IS THEY'RE TRYING TO REPEAL.

>> THERE'S MORE LIBERAL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT LEGISLATORS WHO WANT TO CHANGE ELECTION LAWS, BUT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN DOING ALL THIS STUFF TO REFORM ELECTIONS AND THEY SAY MAKE IT EASIER TO VOTE, HARDER TO CHEAT, RIGHT?

THEY CALL IT ELECTION INTEGRITY BILLS.

THERE WAS AN INITIATIVE FROM VOTERS THAT WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, GIVE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A LIBERAL TILT TO HOW WE RUN ELECTIONS AND THEY COLLECTED ALL THESE SIGNATURES.

BUT NOW, YOU KNOW, CHALLENGED AND THE JUDGE HAS TO AGREE THAT'S INVALID AND WON'T BE GOING FORWARD.

IT'S ONE OF THREE, I BELIEVE, THAT WE HAD.

>> WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THESE SIGNATURES?

>> WELL, IT'S THE FAIR ELECTION'S ACT AND IT PROPOSES ABOUT THREE DOZEN DIFFERENT CHANGES TO ELECTION LAWS, INCLUDING, I THINK, THE THING THEY HANG THEIR HAT ON THAT WOULD RESTORE THE EARLY PERMANENT VOTING LIST, WHICH VOTERS LOVE AND WE KNOW PEOPLE LIKE TO VOTE EARLY.

A SPECIAL MASTER WAS TO GO THROUGH THE CHALLENGES TO ALL OF THESE THOUSANDS OF SIGNATURES OR THE SAMPLE OF THEM.

THIS IS BEING APPEALED AT THE SUPREME COURT.

A FINAL DECISION HAS TO BE MADE BY A WEEK FROM TODAY OR I THINK A WEEK FROM SATURDAY BECAUSE BALLOTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE PRINTED AND THEY HAVE TO KNOW BEFORE THEN, DO WE PUT THIS ON THE BALLOT OR DO WE NOT.

SO ITS FATE IS STILL UNCERTAIN AND IN THE HANDS OF A JUDGE.

>> SO WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE SIGNATURES?

>> ESSENTIALLY WHAT WAS WRONG, A LOT OF SIGNATURES CHALLENGED FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

THERE'S A THING IN LAW THAT REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS PASSED CALLED STRICT COMPLIANCE, WHICH ESSENTIALLY SAYS THAT INITIATIVE, THESE PETITION FORMS HAVE TO BE FILLED OUT AND BASICALLY FILLED OUT PERFECTLY EVERY TIME AND CAN'T BENY BE ANY DEVIATIONS.

USED TO BE A DIFFERENT STANDARD WHERE THE JUDGE COULD INTERPRET, WAS THIS A GOOD FAITH EFFORT AND AN INNOCENT MISTAKE MADE, NO LONGER.

IF THERE'S ANYTHING MISSING, A DATE MISSING, IF THERE'S A SIGNATURE IN THE WRONG BOX, AN ADDRESS IN THE WRONG BOX, THEY THROW OUT ALL OF THESE SIGNATURES.

>> IT'S ABOUT ALL ACTIONS.

>> ACTUAL ACCURACY AND PAPERWORK COMPLIANCE IS WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO.

THAT IS MORE OR LESS WHAT THE JUDGE RULES THESE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SIGNATURES.

MARY JO SAID, WE'RE WAITING TO SEE HOW MANY ARE LEFT AND THAT WILL BE UP TO THE COURTS AND UP TO COUNTY ELECTION'S OFFICIALS AS THEY GO THROUGH AND VALIDATE THEM AND YOU GET A RATE OF VALID SIGNATURES.

>> THERE'S A CONCERN ON PART THAT BROUGHT THIS FORWARD THEY'RE GOING TO FULL SHORT BY AS MANY AS TEN THOUSAND SIGNATURES.

>> IF THEY FALL SHORT, THEY'RE NOT ON THE BALLOT AND ALL THAT WORK FOR NOT.

WE HAVE MONEY INITIATIVES WHERE THE VOTERS RIGHT TO KNOW INITIATIVE WHICH IS A SIMILAR SITUATION WHERE THE SIGNATURES GATHERED ARE BEING SCRUTINIZED AND I THINK SOME HAVE BEEN DISALLOWED, BUT OTHERS ARE STILL IN THE MIX, IF YOU WOULD, AND ARE STILL REVIEWED BY A JUDGE.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> THE PREDATORY THAT HAD A SIMILAR COMPLAINT AGAINST IT, AND THERE ARE OTHER THINGS, WHERE YOU'RE SAYING THIS DOESN'T AFFECT SECURED DEBT AND IT DOES AND A LOT OF THAT CHALLENGE, THE THIRD INITIATIVE, ABOUT SIGNATURES AND SMALL THINGS LIKE MAYBE YOU SAID YOU LIVE IN AN APARTMENT COMPLEX AND DIDN'T INCLUDE THE APARTMENT NUMBER.

DEPENDING ON THE PERSON, THAT COULD BE AN HONEST MISTAKE AND ENOUGH TO DISQUALIFY TENS OF SIGNATURES, HUNDREDS AND IT'S UP TO THE COURTS TO DECIDE THAT.

>> THE TWO INITIATIVES DID HAVE VICTORIES THIS WEEK.

THE ONE DEALING WITH THE PREDATORY DEBT ISSUE, AS WELL AS THE ONE DEALING WITH THE OTHER TOPIC, AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE VICTORIES FOR A MOMENT.

>> WELL, THE PREDATORY DEBT COLLECTION, WHICH CAMERON WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT COVERS A LOT OF THINGS AND THE CONTINENT IS THE INTENT IS TO SAY WE'LL PROTECT A PERSON'S ASSETS FROM BEING SUBJECT TO COLLECTIONS IF YOU OWE A LOT OF MONEY ON A MEDICAL DEBT AND THAT WILL BE ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER.

>> I THINK IT AFFECTS OTHER KINDS OF DEBTS THE FOCUS IS ON MEDICAL DEBT AND THAT IS PART OF THE REPUBLICAN CHALLENGES COMPLAINING ABOUT.

YOU'RE TRYING TO PULL THIS OVER AND SAY THIS IS MEDICAL DEBT AND IT'S NOT.

OF COURSE, THE PROPONENTS SAYING WE DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD GET IN TROUBLE FOR ANY DEBT.

IT'S NOT A SECRET.

>> IT'S CHALLENGES FOR ORGANIZATIONS THAT COLLECT DEBT AND THEY HAVE A STAKE IN THIS.

>> BUT THERE WAS A SMALL VICTORY WHERE IT WAS ALLOWED TO MOVE FORWARD, CORRECT?

>> YES.

AS MENTIONED EARLIER, SOME OF THE SIGNATURES GOT THROWN OUT, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO TAKE IT OFF THE BALLOT AND I'M SURE THERE WILL BE AN APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT ON THIS MATTER.

THIS IS THE WAY THESE THINGS GO AND WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER WEEK OF WHETHER IT WILL LAND ON THE BALLOT.

>> WHAT'S INTERESTING OF THIS POURING OVER THE SIGNATURES AND MAKING SURE EVERYTHING IS IN THE RIGHT SPOT AND YOU HAVEN'T LEFT OFF AN APARTMENT NUMBER IS THAT THIS STRICT COMPLIANCE DOESN'T APPLY WHEN THE LEGISLATURE IS MAKING LAWS.

THEY PASS LAWS AND EVERY YEAR, THE FIRST THINGS ARE TECHNICAL CORRECTION BILLS TO FIX MISTAKES OR OVERSIGHTS OR THINGS THAT THEY DIDN'T QUITE GET RIGHT THE PREVIOUS YEAR.

THERE'S GRACE IN THE WAY THE PROCESS WORKS FOR LEGISLATIVE MATTERS, BUT NOT SO MUCH FOR CITIZEN INITIATIVES.

>> NOT ONLY THAT, THIS HIGHLIGHTS THE DIFFERENT RULE STRUCTURES THAT EXIST FOR EVEN LEGISLATIVE AND POLITICAL CANDIDATES TO GET ON THE BALLOT, RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO FACE STRICT COMPLIANCE AND ALLOWED TO HAVE HUMAN ERRORS ON THE FORMS.

>> YOU CAN NOW SIGN ELECTRONICALLY AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT IN-PERSON.

>> FOR A CANDIDATE.

>> FOR A CANDIDATE, RIGHT.

AND SO THEY'VE SET UP ROADBLOCKS AND HURDLE FOR INITIATIVES TO GET ON THE BALLOTS AND RECALLS TO GET ON THE BALLOT, BUT IN ORDER TO GET THEMSELVES ON THE BALLOT, THEY'VE LEFT THE RULES PERMISSIVE.

>> AND THEN THERE'S THE ANTI-DARK MONEY INITIATIVE THAT ALSO GOT A BIT OF A VICTORY THIS WEEK.

WHAT IS THE ANTI-DARK MONEY INITIATIVE?

>> BASICALLY, IT'S TO MAKE CANDIDATES, POLITICIANS DISCLOSE WHERE THERE MAYBE IS COMING FROM.

THE VOTERS ARE SAYING THEY WANT IT AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL GO AHEAD SMOOTHLY.

I WOULD EXPECT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING TO GET APPEALED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S MOVING ALONG VERY, VERY FAST, BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAS TO BEFORE THE ELECTIONS, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE JUDGE SAID, I WOULD EXPECT THE OPPOSITION TO FIGHT BACK.

>> WHATEVER VICTORY THIS WEEK IS BRIEF.

>> TOO SOON.

DON'T CELEBRATE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT DARK MONEY.

THIS HAS BEEN HOUNDED AROUND FOR YEARS AND YEARS WITH FORMER POLITICAL FIGURES.

>> THIS IS THE THIRD OR FOURTH TIME THAT FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL TERRY GODDARD HAS LAUNCHED THIS INITIATIVE AND THIS IS THE FURTHEST THEY'VE GOTTEN.

WHAT IT SAYS THAT IF PEOPLE -- ANYBODY WHO GIVES OVER -- I'LL FORGET THE THRESHOLDS, OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY TO A CAMPAIGN, MUST DISCLOSE THEIR DONORS.

NOT THE COMMITTEE FOR GOOD GOVERNMENT OR NOT A NAME OF AN ENTITY, BUT THE ACTUAL TO DONOR NAMES.

AND THIS IS ALL CAUGHT UP, THIS ALL HAPPENED IN THE WAKE OF THE CITIZENS' UNITED A DECADE AGO WHICH CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE THIS AND WE'VE BEEN HAVING THIS FIGHT IN ARIZONA PROMINENTLY AND ALSO IN OTHER STATES TO PUT SOME SUNLIGHT ON WHERE MONEY FOR THESE CAMPAIGNS COME FROM.

WE HAVE CANDIDATES WHO CAN BE ATTACKED BY EXPENDITURE CAMPAIGNS AND HAVE TO IDEA AND CAN BE SUPPORTED AND SUPPOSEDLY, THEY HAVE TO IDEA WHO'S BEHIND THAT.

THE ARGUMENT IS THAT VOTERS SHOULD KNOW THAT.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE IN REALITY, BOTH SIDES HAVE USED THIS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE LAST DECADE OR SO.

INITIALINITIALLY IT WAS THOUGHT TO BE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS HAVE USED IT.

>> IT WAS INITIALLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE AND WE SAW THAT VERY SWIFTLY.

THE ENTIRE CASE WAS ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON AND HER PRESIDENTIAL BID AND THAT'S WHAT SPARKED IT AND DEMOCRATS HAVE CAUGHT UP.

I MEAN, FOR ALL OF THE THE HAND RINGING THEY'VE HAD OVER THE LAST DECADE ABOUT THIS, THEY ALSO, YOU KNOW, IN A LOT OF CASES TURNED A BLIND EYE AND IT'S OK FOR US.

AND I THINK A LOT OF TIMES WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE IS, I DON'T LIKE IT, BUT THIS IS THE WAY THAT THE POLITICAL WORLD WORKS RIGHT NOW AND WE HAVE TO USE THIS TOOL BECAUSE IF WE DON'T, WE'RE SEEDING THE BATTLEFIELD.

EVEN THEY WE WANT TO GET RID OF DARK MONEY.

>> I'M GOING TO GO DOWN THE INITIATIVE ROAD IN A MOMENT, BUT FIRST WHAT'S CALLED A PEP RALLY THIS WEEK ABOUT THE VOUCHER BILL, UNIVERSAL VOUCHERS.

AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH IT?

LET'S FIRST TALK ABOUT THE BILL.

WHAT IS THE CHANGE REGARDING UNIVERSAL VOUCHERS THAT WAS TOUTED THIS WEEK?

>> VERY EXPENSIVE BILL TO EXPAND THE ESSAYS WHICH ARE EDUCATIONAL SCHOLARSHIP ACCOUNTS IN THE STATE TO, BASICALLY, ANYONE WHO WANTS THEM, WHICH IS A HUGE DEAL AND SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN PUSHING FOR FOR A LONG TIME AND FINALLY GOT TO DO IT.

IT WAS SIGNED IN ABOUT A MONTH AGO AND I LIKE YOU CALL IT A PEP RALLY.

IT WAS AT A SCHOOLLY, TOUTING HIMSELF AND OTHER LEGISLATIVERS AND HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHAKE HANDS WITH PRIVATE SCHOOL KIDS AND TAKE PHOTOS AND, BASICALLY, IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG DEAL BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SO MANY PEOPLE CAN APPLY NOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY COULD AFFORD TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO PRIVATE SCHOOL WITHOUT THE VOUCHER.

AND SO, IT'S NOT CLEAR YET, YOU KNOW, HOW MANY KIDS WILL APPLY AND HOW MUCH IT WILL COST.

IT COULD BE A LOT.

>> AND ONCE AGAIN, BECAUSE THIS IS THE INITIATIVE HALF HOUR.

>> OH, WAIT!

>> SAVE OUR SCHOOLS IS WORKING OVERTIME TO TRY TO DERAIL THIS.

EXPLAIN.

>> YES, EXACTLY.

BUT FOR THE BUT WAIT, ONCE THE GOVERNOR SIGNED IT, THIS 90-DAY CLOCK STARTS TICKING IN WHICH ACCIDENTS CAN GATHER SIGNATURES TO REFER THIS TO THE BALLOT AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT SAVE OR SCHOOLS IS DOING.

THEY ARGUE THAT IF WE GO TO UNIVERSAL VOUCHERS, RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE LIMITED TO CERTAIN CLASSES OF STUDENTS, BUT IF WE ABOUT TO UNIVERSAL VOUCHERS, IT WILL DRAIN MONEY FROM PUBLIC FUNDING AND $7,000 TO FOLLOW ANY CHILD WHO WOULD GET AN ESA.

THEY HAVE UNTIL SEPTEMBER 24th TO GATHER 118,000 PLUS SIGNATURES AND THEY GO THROUGH THE SAME DRILL THESE OTHER INITIATIVES WITH ALL OF THE SCRUTINY AND SIGNATURES AND NO DOUBT, SOME LEGAL CHALLENGES.

BUT THEY HAVE TIME ON THEIR SIDE AND THIS WOULD BE REFERRED TO -- >> AND ORGANIZATION ON THEIR SIDE, AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE GONE DOWN THIS ROAD AND KNOW HOW TO MOBILIZE.

>> RIGHT.

THEY DID THIS IN 2018, AND GOT IT ON THE 2018 BALLOT AND THIS WOULD PUT IT ON THE 2024 BALLOT AND THEY DON'T FEED THIS TO GET IT DONE BY NOVEMBER.

AND COULD BE A MOTIVATING FACTOR TO GET VOTERS TO THE POLLS THIS FALL.

>> IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THE LANDSCAPE NOW AS OPPOSED TO 2018.

THE BILL IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT AND THIS IS 60% OF VOTERS AND SO, THERE'S SOME SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT BECAUSE THIS IS MORE EXPANSIVE AND HAS SOME OF THE LIMITED GUARDRAILS TAKEN OFF THAT THE PRO SCHOOL CHOICE CROWD WILL COME OUT WITH THEIR MONEY TO HELP RUN A CAMPAIGN WHICH THEY DIDN'T MOUNT MUCH OF A CAMPAIGN FOUR YEARS AGO.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S ORGANIZED GROUPS AGAINST THIS THAT ARE WORKING TO TRY TO STOP SAVE OUR SCHOOLS ARIZONA, ESSENTIALLY COUNTERPROTESTING WHERE THEY SET UP THEIR TABLES TO DISSUADE PEOPLE FROM SIGNING THIS REFERENDUM.

>> IT'S A DOG-EAT-DOG POLITICAL WORLD RIGHT NOW.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT CAME UP WITH CUTS RELATED TO COLORADO RIVER WATER AND ARIZONA IS FACING CUTS.

WE'VE HAD CUTS AND POTENTIALLY EVEN GREATER CUTS COMING NEXT YEAR.

THE THING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, ESPECIALLY WITH REPORTERS, IS HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO EXPLAIN THIS STORY BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY I'M JUST FINDING OUT ABOUT THIS NOW AS OPPOSED TO BEFORE.

HOW HARD IS IT -- I'LL START WITH YOU MARY JO, HOW HARD IS IS THIS?

>> IT'S NOT THAT HARD.

>> NOT AS COLORFUL AND HOW IS IT ISN'T HASN'T GOTTEN AS HARD?

>> IT'S THE WHOLE SLOW HEAT-UP OF THE POT AND YOU PUT THE FROG IN THE BEGINNING AND THEY DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE BEING COOKED AND THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING TO THE COLORADO RIVER.

NOT SO SLOWLY DRYING UP DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND WE PULL A LOT OF WATER OUT OF THE COLORADO RIVER AND SIX OTHER STATES, AS WELL AS MEXICO AND IT'S RECKONING TIME AND THEY'LL PUT IN PLACE THESE TIER-TWO LEVEL CUTS AND ARIZONA PLANNED FOR AND ACCOUNTED FOR.

WHAT INTERIOR FAILED TO DO WAS HOLD STATES ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE FAILURE TO COME UP WITH A WAY TO CUT ANOTHER TWO TO FOUR MILLION ACRE FEET BY NEXT YEAR.

THERE'S NO PLAN.

>> SO ARE WE GOING A GOOD JOB FINALLY OF EXPLAINING THIS OR BETTER JOB?

>> WELL, YEAH -- I'M PUTTING THIS ON US.

>> THIS IS A CRITICAL ISSUE, WE LIVE IN A DESERT.

ONLY REASON PHOENIX IS WHAT IT IS NOW AND NOT IN THE 1950S, WAS IT WAS ON THE HIGHWAYS, WE GOT THE CENTRAL ARIZONA PROJECT TO MOVE WATER FROM THE COLORADO RIVER AND PUMP IT UPHILL TWO THOUSAND FEET INTO THE PHOENIX AREA AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE ABLE TO LIVE HERE AND HAVE THREE MILLION PEOPLE HERE AND WITHOUT WATER, WE'LL BE IN TROUBLE.

PHOENIX AND THE METRO AREAS ARE THE LAST HIT AS CUTS COME INTO ARIZONA AND IT WILL TAKE IT ON THE CHIN, PROBABLY, WHEN BUREAU OF RECLAMATION MAKES IT CUTS OR THE STATES GET TOGETHER AND MAKE THEIR CUTS.

>> IS IT A SIGN THAT THE LEGISLATURE STOOD UP AND TOOK SOME ACTION TO THIS, CAMERON, BECAUSE YOU HAVE PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION AND THEY WEREN'T DOING IT BEFORE IS.

>> BEFORE?

>> I THINK PEOPLE WILL BE PAYING ATTENTION FAST.

AGRICULTURE LOBBYISTS ARE VOCAL FIGURES AT THE CAPITOL AND IF IT'S TRUE THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET AS MUCH WATER, I DON'T THINK THEY'LL APPRECIATE THAT AND WE'LL BE HEARING ABOUT THAT A LOT MORE AND IT'S ACTUALLY A BIPARTISAN ISSUE SO IN ONE WAY, THAT'S A GOOD THING WHEN IT COMES TO WATER LEGISLATION BECAUSE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE IN AGREEMENT THERE'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

>> THERE'S NO RED WATER, THERE'S NO BLUE WATER, IT'S JUST WATER.

>> RIGHT.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, CAMERON, AND MARY JO AND JIM.

AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AT HOME AND MORE IMPORTANT, HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.

COMING UP IN THE NEXT HALF HOUR ON ARIZONA PBS, ON BREAK IT DOWN, SPORT'S BETTING IS LEGAL ACROSS MOST OF THE UNITED STATES.

ON BREAK IT DOWN, WE FIGURE OUT IF BUSINESS IS ACTUALLY PAYING OFF.

- Another powerful edition of Arizona Horizon.

That has been a part of the news and public affairs programming in the Grand Canyon state