TED: COMING UP IN THE NEXT HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS ON ARIZONA PBS.

ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE, LOOKS AT THE TOP STORIES OF THE WEEK INCLUDING A REPORT THAT THE FBI IS INVESTIGATING GOVERNOR DUCEY AND SOME CURRENT AND FORMER STAFFERS.

>>> ON CRONKITE NEWS, HOW LOCAL RESIDENTS HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE RECENT LIFTING OF THE EVICTION MORATORIUM.

>>> AND ON "BREAK IT DOWN," THE IMPACT OF DIVERSITY IN JOURNALISM, COMING UP ON THE NEXT HOUR OF ARIZONA PBS.

.

TED: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON."

I'M TED SIMONS.

ANOTHER CURIOUS MOVE BY THE STATE SENATE IN REVIEW OF MARICOPA COUNTY 2020 PRESIDENTIAL AND U.S. SENATE VOTES.

"THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC" REPORTS THAT THE SENATE HAS HIRED SHIVA AYA-DURAY TO REVIEW VOTER SIGNATURES ON MAIL-IN ENVELOPES, AYA-DURAY OR DR. SHIVA HAS TIES TO THE STOP THE STEAL MOVEMENT AND FALSELY CLAIMED THE 2020 ELECTION WAS RIGGED AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

NO WORD WHY HE WAS HIRED TO BE PART OF THE SELF-STYLED AUDIT AND SPREAD MISINFORMATION ABOUT COVID-19 AND COVID VACCINATIONS.

>>> SPEAKING OF COVID, NOT GOOD.

MORE THAN 3800 NEW CASES ON RECORD WITH 70% OF THE CASES IN MARICOPA COUNTY.

THERE WERE 80 NEW FATALITIES RECORDED.

HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE UP TO HIGHEST LEVEL SINCE FEBRUARY WITH 2,000 HOSPITALIZED STATEWIDE.

MORE THAN 550 ARE IN ICUs.

>>> THIS LATEST COVID SURGE IS AFFECTING THE U.S. ECONOMY.

THE NEW JOBS REPORT WAS RELEASED TODAY AND SHOWS EMPLOYERS ADDED 235,000 JOBS IN AUGUST, FAR BELOW THE 725,000 THAT ECONOMISTS EXPECTED.

ANALYSTS SAY THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THE SPREAD OF THE CORONAVIRUS, THE DELTA VARIANT, ESPECIALLY IS BEHIND THE SLOWDOWN.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CERTAINLY THINKS SO.

>> EVEN WITH THE PROGRESS WE'VE MADE, WE'RE NOT WHERE WE NEED TO BE IN OUR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

TOO MANY HAVE NOT GOTTEN VACCINATED AND IT'S CREATING A LOT OF MONEY IN OUR ECONOMY AND AROUND OUR KITCHEN TABLES.

TED: AUGUST SLOWDOWN FOLLOWS SIGNIFICANT EMPLOYMENT GAINS IN JUNE AND JULY.

>>> RECOVERY AND CLEANUP FROM TROPICAL STORM IDA CONTINUES IN THE NORTHEAST AS THE DEATH TOLL IS 45 AND EXPECTED TO GO HIGHER.

NEW YORK CITY MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO SAYS WHAT NEW YORKERS EXPERIENCED WITH IDA WAS UNPRECEDENTED.

>> THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE WE'VE HAD IN THE PAST.

IN THE PAST, YOU THINK ABOUT FLOODING, IT WAS COASTAL AREAS, THAT WAS A HUGE CHALLENGE.

THIS IS SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW.

RAIN THAT ACCUMULATES SO QUICKLY THAT PEOPLE CAN BE TRAPPED IN THEIR OWN BASEMENT FAR AWAY FROM ANY SEASHORE, AND THAT PEOPLE CAN BE TRAPPED IN CARS BECAUSE THE RAIN ACCUMULATES SO QUICKLY, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT HIT THEM.

WE'RE IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD.

TED: IN LOUISIANA, GAS SHORTAGES ARE INCREASING ISSUE AS THAT REGION RECOVERS FROM IDA.

MORE THAN 65 STATIONS ARE WITHOUT FUEL.

U.S. ENERGY DEPARTMENT SAYS IT WILL USE THE NATION'S STRATEGIC PETROLEUM RESERVE TO HELP WITH FUEL SHORTAGES.

>>> IN WASHINGTON, THE U.S. SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE IS PLANNING TO HOLD A HEARING ON THE SIX-WEEK ABORTION BAN IN TEXAS.

THE HEARING UPON FOCUS ON THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION NOT TO BLOCK THE LAW AND THE HIGH COURT'S SO-CALLED SHADOW DOCKET, A TERM USED TO DESCRIBE EMERGENCY ACTIONS THAT THE COURT TAKES THAT DON'T GO THROUGH A FULL BRIEFING AND HEARING PROCESS.

THE COURT HAS USED SHADOW DOCKET ORDERS ON EVICTION MORATORIUM AND IMMIGRATION CASES.

>>> AN ARIZONA MAN WHO WORE FACE PAINT, HORNS AND A FURRY HAT AT THE U.S. CAPITOL HAS PLEADED GUILTY TO A FELONY CHARGE.

JACOB CHANSLEY ALSO KNOWN AS THE QAnon SHAMAN WILL SERVE 3 1/2 YEARS IN PRISON FOR HIS ROLE IN STORMING THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6 HE.

WAS HIT WITH CHARGES THAT COULD HAVE PUT HIM BEHIND BARS FOR UP TO 28 YEARS.

SENTENCING IS SCHEDULED FOR NOVEMBER 17.

>>> TIME FOR THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE, AND FOR A LOOK AT THIS WEEK'S TOP STORIES, WE WELCOME STEVE GOLDSTEIN OF KJZZ RADIO AND BOB CHRISTIE OF THE ASSOCIATED PRESS.

WE HAVE A LOT TO TALK ABOUT HERE.

A LOT GOING ON.

START WITH THE FBI INVESTIGATION OF GOVERNOR DUCEY.

CRAIG HARRIS, USA TODAY, "ARIZONA REPUBLIC" WORKING THE STORY FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT'S THIS ALL ABOUT?

>> YOU HAVE THE INTREPID REPORTER ON HIMSELF THE OTHER NIGHT.

FASCINATING STORY.

AS CRAIG PAINTS IT, THERE'S A PARTICULAR DONOR OF GOVERNOR DUCEY'S ATTEMPTING TO UTILIZE THE GOVERNOR'S HIGH-RANKING STAFFERS, ONE OF WHOM IS A JUDGE, THE OTHER RUNNING THE ARIZONA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND USING THE GOVERNOR TO GET HIMSELF AND RELATED COMPANIES A HUGE TAX BREAK, ALSO INVOLVED IN THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE.

A LOT OF TANGLED WEB HERE.

TED: BOB, THIS WAS A DEAL THAT WOULD HAVE COST THE STATE 100 MILLION DOLLARS?

>> 100 MILLION DOLLARS.

STARTED WITH A LAWSUIT BY A TEXAS LAWYER AGAINST THE STATE WHERE HE TRIED TO GET A TAX REFUND FOR TAXES THEY PAID ON FUEL IN A MINING LOCATION, SOUTHWEST OR NORTHWEST OF WINGELMAN.

WAY OUT.

HE WANTED A TAX REFUND, 10 GRAND, 20 GRAND, WELL, THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU GIVE HIM A REFUND, EVERY FUEL USED IN A MINE NOW GETS REFUND, TOO.

AND THAT'S HOW YOU GET THE 100 MILLION DOLLARS.

THIS IS A LAWYER WHO SPECIALIZES IN THESE TYPE OF TAX REFUNDS.

HE WON THE REFUND AND MR. BRNOVICH, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL APPEALED THAT TO THE COURT OF APPEALS AND WON, SO THE 100 MILLION DOLLAR PAYDAY FOR MINING COMPANIES ACROSS THE STATE WENT AWAY.

TED: IT WENT AWAY BUT THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE, STEVE, THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT EITHER, THEY WERE OPPOSED TO IT.

THE GOVERNOR SAID YOU'RE FIRED.

>> WHAT HE REPORTED IS THE IDEA THESE ARE TWO PEOPLE HIGHLY RESPECTED FOR NUMBERS, GREAT STATE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE EMPLOYEES BUT SOUNDED AS THOUGH THESE PARTICULAR FOLKS WERE CALLING THE GOVERNOR AND HIS STAFF OUT, THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T LIKE IT, AND ACCORDING TO CRAIG'S REPORTING, ONE OF THE FOLKS LEFT THE STATE AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO TESTIFY TO THE FBI IF IT COMES TO THAT BUT HASN'T COME YET.

TED: BOB, AS FAR AS THE FBI PROBES ARE CONCERNED, HOW LONG DOES IT USUALLY TAKE?

>> TAKE YEARS SOMETIMES, AND THEY'RE VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MEETINGS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

THE ALLEGATIONS WOULD BE THAT THESE THREE GENTLEMEN, INCLUDING KIRK ADAMS, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE WHO JUST LEFT AS GOVERNOR DUCEY'S CHIEF OF STAFF, IMPROPERLY PUSHED, USED THEIR POWER TO GET THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE TO APPROVE THESE REFUNDS OFF THE BOOKS, AND NOT NECESSARILY OFF THE BOOKS BUT WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THE COURT PROCESS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE COULD SETTLE THIS CASE.

YOU'RE RIGHT, WE HAD A MISTAKE, AND DANNY SIDEN AND KIRK ADAMS AND MICHAEL VERDE, THE CURRENT JUDGE, THE REPUBLIC DOCUMENT, THEY MET WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE LEADERS, AT LEAST 16 DIFFERENT TIMES AFTER THEY LEFT THE GOVERNOR'S EMPLOY TO PRESSURE HIM ON THIS.

AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE SAYS, NO, WE HAVE THE HIGHEST RESPECT FOR ETHICS AND THE RULES, THEY DID NOTHING WRONG, THE GOVERNOR ABSOLUTELY BELIEVES THERE'S NOTHING TO BE WORRIED ABOUT HERE, BUT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE, MAYBE SIX MONTHS, A YEAR, TWO YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WHETHER ANYTHING COMES OF THIS.

TED: THE FBI STEPPING IN PUTS THIS AT MUCH DIFFERENT PLAY.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE I'VE TALKED TO BEHIND THE SCENES AFTER READING CRAIG'S WORK THAT SAY IT'S POLITICS, IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

TED: THAT'S WHY I WONDERED HOW FAR IT WAS GOING TO GO.

THE AUDIT REPORT, WE KEEP WAITING ARE IN THING AND HASN'T BEEN RELEASED TO THE SENATE.

THE INITIAL DRAFT.

NOW WE FIND OUT IT COULD BE LIKE A THREE-VOLUME, IT'S LIKE A SERIES.

>> IT'S A THREE-VOLUME SET ACCORDING TO THE SENATE'S ATTORNEY WHO TOLD THE JUDGE EARLIER THIS WEEK IN A HEARING THAT THE REPORT'S NOT DONE YET, WE LEARNED LAST WEEK THAT DOUG LOGAN, THE HEAD OF CYBER NINJAS, THE FIRM OVERSEEING THE AUDIT, HAD COVID, AS DID OTHER AUDITORS, STOW WAS DELAYED.

NOW THIS WEEK, WE HEARD FROM HIS LAWYER, THERE'S A THREE-VOLUME SET AND DON'T KNOW HOW THICK THOSE WILL BE, IT WILL BE INTERESTING READING FOR THE JOURNALISTS CORPS AND THE PRESS CORPS AND LAWYERS AROUND THE STATE.

TED: AND STEVE, NOW THEY'RE PUSHING THAT, THE THREE-VOLUME SET, YOU CAN GET YOURS FOR A SPECIAL PRICE.

>> AUTOGRAPHED?

TED: ANOTHER TWO WEEKS.

IT JUST GOES ON.

>> THE HOPE IS THIS WILL BE DONE BY NOVEMBER OF 2022 SO WE CAN DETERMINE THE PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED.

IT DOES SEEM ABSURD, AND IF YOU TALK TO WHAT USED TO BE MAINSTREAM REPUBLICANS, SAY THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT FOR THE PARTY.

THIS IS GOING TO HURT THE PARTY NEXT YEAR AT ELECTION TIME, AND YOU'RE SEEING THE POLLS AGAIN, 55 TO 65% OF REPUBLICANS ARE UP FOR THIS.

THEY DON'T CARE IF IT'S DELAYED AS LONG AS IT COMES.

AS WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE IF IT SAYS THERE WASN'T FRAUD, ARE PEOPLE GOING TO BE CONVINCED OR THE PEOPLE AT CYBER NINJAS WERE TAKEN OVER BY SOMETHING?

TED: I DON'T THINK THEY'LL BE CONVINCED BY ANYTHING.

THE SENATE WAS SUPPOSED TO TURN OVER DOCUMENTS, THE COURT SAID TURN OVER THE PUBLIC RECORDS, THEY DID TURN OVER A BUNCH OF STUFF BY AUGUST 31 BUT DID THEY TURN OVER ANYTHING RELEVANT?

>> DOESN'T APPEAR THAT MUCH THAT'S IN THERE IS SUPER INTERESTING.

MY COLLEAGUE AND I SPENT HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS LOOKING THROUGH THE 20,000 RECORDS THEY DID RELEASE.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF INTERESTING REVELATIONS INCLUDING THE FORMER STATE TREASURER JEFF DEWITT WHO WAS DONALD TRUMP'S CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER FOR HIS CAMPAIGN.

TEXTED WITH ONE OF THE AUDIT, SENATE AUDIT LIAISONS, SAYING TRUMP'S ASKING, WHERE SHOULD WE SEND THE MONEY?

MR. DeWITT WASN'T ASKING FOR MR. TRUMP, IT WAS PEOPLE IN TRUMP'S ORBIT.

THE PRESIDENT IS VERY INTERESTED IN THIS, AND SO THAT WAS INTERESTING.

THERE WASN'T A LOT OF OTHER STUFF THERE BUT WAS ABOUT 2200 RECORDS WITHHELD UNDER LEGAL PRIVILEGE OR LEGISLATIVE PRIVILEGE AND EVERYONE BELIEVES THAT'S WHERE ALL THE SMOKE IS AND A JUDGE HAS TO SIDE WHETHER THOSE GET RELEASED OR NOT.

TED: CLOSE TO 3,000 MESSAGES, TEXT MESSAGES BETWEEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MEMBERS WITH THE CYBER NINJAS BACK AND FORTH AND ALL THIS STUFF.

EXECUTIVE, ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE, WHAT'S THE REASON FOR KEEPING THIS QUIET?

>> I'LL LET BOB, THANK GOD YOU READ THROUGH SOME OF THE STUFF I DID NOT.

THANK YOU, BOB.

THE IDEA IS BECAUSE THE CYBER NINJAS ARE A SUBCONTRACTOR THEY GET THE SAME LEGISLATIVE PRIVILEGE A LAWMAKER WOULD HAVE, THERE IS CLEAR DISAGREEMENT ON THAT.

THE ATTORNEY SAYS YES, YES, YES, OTHERS SAY ABSOLUTELY NOT.

TED: BOB, CAN A THIRD PARTY TAKE OVER AND TRY TO KEEP BOTH SIDES AT BAY?

>> THE JUDGE MENTIONED A SPECIAL MASTER TO ROUTE RECORDS THAT THE ATTORNEY SAID SHOULD BE PRIVILEGED, THAT'S ALSO A POSSIBILITY TO REVIEW THEM.

THE FBI USES THEM, COURTS USE THEM TO REVIEW DOCUMENTS THAT MAY BE PRIVILEGED TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE OR NOT.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, OR IT'S GOOD TO REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY HALF OF THE PUBLIC RECORDS LAWSUIT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE OTHER HALF INVOLVES CYBER NINJAS RECORDS THEMSELVES, WHICH THE SENATE SAYS ARE ABSOLUTELY PRIVILEGED.

THE JUDGE COUPLE WEEKS AGO SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THE COURT OF APPEALS SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT, RELEASE THEM BY THE END OF -- AUGUST 31 AS WELL, AND THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT PUT A HOLD ON THAT TO HEAR THE CASE AND WON'T FIND OUT IF THE RECORDS, ACCORDING TO THE COURT, ARE PUBLIC, COULD BE WEEKS.

SEPTEMBER 14 THEY'RE GOING TO REVIEW THAT AND DECIDE WHETHER TO TAKE THE CASE OR LET THE COURT OF APPEALS RULING STAND.

TED: AND STEVE, BOB MENTIONED AMONG THE INFORMATION HE WENT THROUGH, THANK GOODNESS, WE'RE FINDING OUT THAT TRUMP, PERHAPS PEOPLE WITH TRUMP, SOMEONE NAMED TRUMP, NOT NECESSARILY DONALD, FIGURE IT OUT ON YOUR OWN.

SOMEONE ASSOCIATED WITH DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO KNOW HOW TO DONATE TO THE AUDIT?

THERE'S NO SURPRISE THERE, TED.

>> BOB MENTIONED THE MOST IMPORTANT NAME IS BOB DeWITT, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER FOR THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

WHAT IS FASCINATING WE CONTINUE TO HEAR SENATE PRESIDENT FANN SAY TWO THINGS, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION AND TWO, THIS IS NOT OVER FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

IT CLEARLY IS.

MOST THINGS REVOLVING AROUND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY INVOLVE PRESIDENT TRUMP.

TED: AND THE DR. SHIVA AYA-DURAY, THE ANTI-VACCINE GUY, THE SENATE HIRED HIM TO LOOK AT SIGNATURES ON ENVELOPES?

WAS THERE NO ONE ELSE THEY COULD HIRE FOR THE JOBS?

>> THERE SURE IS.

THEY'RE ALL IN, THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE WHO THEY HIRE, IT DOESN'T APPEAR ANYWAY.

THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY NOT TO HIRE ANYONE WITH ANY AUDITING EXPERIENCE.

INSTEAD THEY WENT TO A PARTISAN FIRM WITH NO EXPERIENCE AND THAT PARTISAN FIRM HIRED SUBCONTRACTORS WITH NO ISSUES.

THE CIRCLE IS THAT THIS IS THE REPUBLICAN GROUP OR THE REPUBLICAN SUPPORTERS WHO BELIEVE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

THAT'S WHO'S DOING THE AUDIT, DOING THE REVIEW OF ALL THESE THINGS, AND I THINK YOU SAID EARLIER WHO'S GOING TO BELIEVE IT?

I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY ON EITHER SIDE IS GOING BELIEVE TO WHAT COMES OUT OF THIS.

IT'S A MESS.

ONE OF THE RECORDS THAT CAME OUT WAS INTERESTING, THERE WAS AN EXCHANGE WHERE CHUCK HOFFMAN, A PROMINENT LOBBYIST IN TOWN BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES AND WELL RESPECTED IN THE REPUBLICAN COMMUNITY HAD DINNER WITH KAREN FANN AND TEXTING HER THE NEXT DAY AND SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY IN THIS.

OUR POLLING SHOWS YOU LOST ALL CREDIBILITY.

STOP IT, GO DO A REAL AUDIT IF YOU WANT TO DO THIS.

SHE SAID WELL, MAYBE SOME OTHER TIME.

>> OKAY, HEY, WE'RE GOING TO WRAP IT UP WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN TEXAS WITH THE ABORTION BAN, AND THE CENTER FOR ARIZONA POLICIES CATHY HERROD SAID I'M INTERESTED AND INTERESTED IN PUSHING THIS AS FAR AS A TEMPLATE FOR ARIZONA LEGISLATION.

>> RIGHT, MORE DETAILS WITH PAUL BENDER, I UNDERSTAND.

THE INTERESTING PART OF THIS IS WE HAVE THIS SIX WEEK THING WHICH IS A HUGE LEAP COMPARED TO MANY STATES AFTER WHICH AN ABORTION IS NOT ALLOWED, NOT PERMITTED.

BUT FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, THE MOST FASCINATING THING ABOUT ALL THIS, IN THE PAST YOU HAD THE SUPREME COURT KNOCK DOWN A SITUATION WHERE A STATE HAD RIGHTS OR CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION.

IN TEXAS, WE'RE LOOKING AT POTENTIAL CIVIL SUITS BROUGHT BY INDIVIDUAL AGAINST ABORTION PROVIDER OR SOMEONE WHO MAY KNOW ABOUT IT OR THE PERSON INVOLVED GETTING THE ABORTION.

THAT HAS MANY, MANY PEOPLE SURPRISED AND EXTREMELY ALARMED.

CATHI HERROD IS VERY INVOLVED.

TED: WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM PAUL BENDER THAT'S GOING TO EXPLAIN THIS AS TO WHY THE TEXAS LAW IS UNUSUAL AND DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT GOES THROUGH THE CIVIL COURTS AS OPPOSED TO CRIMINAL COURTS AND THE SUPREME COURT SAID WE'LL LET YOU HANDLE IT FOR NOW.

IS ARIZONA NEXT IN LINE FOR THIS?

>> ARIZONA AND A HALF DOZEN OTHER REPUBLICAN STATES, MISSISSIPPI, INDIANA, LOUISIANA, FLORIDA, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, THE STORY YESTERDAY WE TALKED TO LAWMAKERS IN THE REPUBLICAN STATES AND EVERY ONE OF THEM SAID THIS IS WONDERFUL, THIS IS GREAT.

OF COURSE, ROE v. WADE, THE LANDMARK 1973 SUPREME COURT DECISION WHICH SAYS WOMEN HAVE A RIGHT TO AN ABORTION, A PREVIABILITY ABORTION, 22, 24 WEEKS OF PREGNANT.

TEXAS LAW, SIX WEEKS.

BEFORE MOST WOMEN KNOW THEY'RE PREGNANT.

IT'S ILLEGAL TO GET AN ABORTION.

IT'S A BACK DOOR WAY OF ELIMINATING ABORTIONS, PERIOD.

SUPREME COURT, DESPITE THEIR OWN PRECEDENT AND DESPITE AMY CONEY BARRETT AND BRETT KAVANAUGH AT THEIR HEARINGS SAYING THEY BELIEVE IN PRECEDENT.

THEY LET THIS GO INTO EFFECT, AND IT'S -- IT LOOKS LIKE VERY CLEARLY THAT ROE v. WADE IS, IF NOT GONE, VERY CLOSE TO BEING GONE.

TED: CERTAINLY, WE'LL BE CHALLENGED IF ANYBODY DECIDES TO CHALLENGE THIS, AND PAUL BENDER WILL TALK ABOUT THIS LATER ON IN THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU, BOTH SO VERY MUCH.

STEVE GOLDSTEIN, KJZZ RADIO, BOB CHRISTIE OF ASSOCIATED PRESS.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

TED: UP NEXT, WHY THE SUPREME COURT DECIDED NOT TO INTERVENE IN THE CASE OF THE NEW ABORTION LAW IN TEXAS?

.

TED: THE U.S. SUPREME COURT REFUSED TO BLOCK A NEW LAW IN TEXAS THAT PROHIBITS ABORTIONS AFTER SIX WEEKS.

WE ASKED PAUL BENDER ABOUT WHY THE LAW CHOSE NOT TO INTERVENE IN THE CONTROVERSIAL CASE.

PAUL BENDER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU'RE THE GO-TO GUY AS FAR AS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DID, WHY THEY DID IT?

START WITH THE TEXAS LAW.

WHAT DOES IT SAY?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO START.

THE TEXAS LAW PROHIBITS ABORTION AFTER SIX WEEKS AFTER PREGNANCY, BASICALLY.

UNLIKE OTHER ABORTION STATUTES, IT DOESN'T MAKE IT A CRIME TO VIOLATE THE STATUTE.

ALL IT DOES IS AUTHORIZE SOMEONE, ANYONE TO BRING A CIVIL ACTION AGAINST THE PERSON WHO DOES THE ABORTION.

AND THE REASON THAT'S A PROBLEM IS THAT THE DOCTORS DON'T WANT TO DO THAT BECAUSE THEY'LL RISK GETTING SUED, AND IF THEY GOT SUED, THEY COULD THEN CHALLENGE THE STATUTE, AND I THINK THEY WOULD WIN, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS WHAT YOU USUALLY DO IN THESE CASES, NORMALLY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO VIOLATE ABORTION STATUTE IN ORDER TO CHALLENGE IT.

YOU CAN SAY I WANT TO VIOLATE IT AND BRING IN ACTION TO DECLARATORY JUDGMENT, BUT IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU NEED A DEFENDANT, AND THE DEFENDANT IS USUALLY THE PERSON WHO'S GOING TO ENFORCE THE STATUTE AGAINST YOU.

YOU SUE THE PROSECUTOR OR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OR THE STATE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT HERE, THE STATE'S NOT GOING TO ENFORCE THE STATUTE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS GOING TO ENFORCE IT, IF IT'S GOING TO BE ENFORCED BECAUSE THAT'S UP TO WHETHER A PRIVATE PERSON BRINGS A SUIT AGAINST YOU AFTER YOU DO THE ABORTION.

THAT'S THE THING THAT CAUSES THE PROBLEM.

>> THE CIVIL ASPECT OF IT CAUSING THE PROBLEM.

ANYONE FROM THE UBER DRIVER TO A FAMILY FRIEND WHO GIVES -- ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE COULD BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWSUIT, TRUE?

>> THAT'S SUBJECT TO THE LAWSUIT, RIGHT.

I'M NOT SURE THE UBER DRIVER WOULD BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWSUIT.

STATUTE SAYS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO KNOWINGLY AID AN ABORTION, I'M NOT SURE AN UBER DRIVER WHO DRIVES TO YOU ABORTION CLINIC KNOWS THERE IS AN ILLEGAL ABORTION.

YOU CERTAINLY CAN SUE THE DOCTOR AND PROBABLY THE NURSES AND THAT'S REALLY ALL YOU NEED.

YOU CAN'T SUE THE WOMAN.

TED: OKAY, SO THAT'S THE LAW, THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE DEPUTIZING THE DOCTORS AND NURSES AS YOU SAY.

THE SUPREME COURT DECIDES NOT TO BLOCK THIS.

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> WHAT HAPPENED IS THEY'RE CONFUSED BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE NORMAL KIND OF CASE, AND THERE'S NO DEFENDANT.

WHO ARE THE DOCTORS SUING TO GET THE DECLARATION THAT THE STATUTE'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THEY SUE JUDGES, THEY SUE THE GOVERNOR, WELL, THE GOVERNOR IS NOT GOING TO PUSH THE STATUTE.

NO STATE OFFICIAL IS GOING TO SUE THE STATUTE.

YOU SUE THE PROSECUTOR AND ASK FOR INJUNCTION AGAINST THE PROSECUTOR ENFORCING THE STATUTE.

THERE'S NO PROSECUTOR HERE, THERE WILL BE PRIVATE PROSECUTORS, MAYBE, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

SO THAT LEAVES THE PLAINTIFFS, THE ABORTION CLINICS WITH A REAL PROBLEM, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM, AND THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM, ONE IS FOR THEM TO DO WHAT CIVIL RIGHTS PEOPLE, PEOPLE PROTECTING CIVIL RIGHTS OFTEN DO IS TO GO AHEAD AND VIOLATE THE STATUTE, THEN THEY WILL BE SUED PROBABLY AND THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES AND CHALLENGE THE STATUTE, AND THE SUPREME COURT DECISION DOES NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF THAT AT ALL.

THEY GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SAY WE'RE NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE STATUTE.

WE'RE JUST SAYING YOU HAVEN'T BROUGHT A PROCEDURALLY PROPER CASE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A PROPER DEFENDANT.

SO ONE THING YOU CAN DO IS VIOLATE THE STATUTE AND THEN, IF YOU'RE SUED, YOU CAN RAISE THE UNCONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE STATUTE.

OTHERWISE, IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE FOR EITHER THE STATE OR THE LOWER COURTS TO WORK OUT SOME NEW PROCEDURE, WHICH LET'S THEM GO AHEAD, WHICH GIVES THEM A REAL DEFENDANT, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE PROCEDURE WOULD BE.

THE SUPREME COURT THINKS THEY CAN DO THAT, AND I THINK THE STATE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T WANT TO.

UNDER NORMAL LAW, YOU NEED A DEFENDANT AND THE CLAIMANTS DON'T HAVE A DEFENDANT.

BY A DEFENDANT, SOMEBODY THEY CAN SUE TO SAY IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL FOR YOU TO PROSECUTE US BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOING TO PROSECUTE THEM.

TED: SO PAUL, CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE SAYS GO AHEAD AND BREAK THE LAW, UNJUST LAW, YOU THINK IT'S UNJUST.

GO AHEAD AND BREAK, IT AND THE COURTS WILL HANDLE IT.

YOU'RE SAYING ONE OF THE ABORTION CLINICS DOCTORS, IF THEY WENT AHEAD AND WERE SUED, THAT WOULD GET IT INTO THE COURTS WHERE THE SUPREME COURT MIGHT TAKE A CLOSER LOOK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL STATUTE UNDER CURRENT LAW.

THE COURT WOULD HAVE TO DO A LOT OF CHANGING OF ROE OR OVERRULING IT TO SAY IT'S OKAY.

ROE SAYS RIGHT TO ABORTION UP UNTIL VIABILITY, AND THIS SAYS RIGHT TO ABORTION UP UNTIL SIX WEEKS AFTER PREGNANCY AND MANY WOMEN DON'T KNOW THEY'RE PREGNANT, SO THERE IS NO RIGHT TO ABORTION.

AND ROBERTS MAKES THAT CLEAR IN HIS OPINION AND EVEN THE COURT MAKES THAT CLEAR IN HIS OPINION THAT THIS IS A VERY STRONG CONSTITUTIONAL CASE ON THE MERITS AGAINST THE STATUTE.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT CLINICS WHO WANT THE RELIEF HAVE NOT BROUGHT A CASE WITH A REAL DEFENDANT.

THERE'S A WAY THEY CAN DO THAT WHICH IS TO VIOLATE THE STATUTE.

TED: REAL QUICKLY, BEFORE YOU GO, PAUL, REAL QUICKLY.

COULD THE COURT STILL HAVE BLOCKED THIS UNTIL THEY COULD FIGURE OUT, NOT BE SO CONFUSED?

>> OF COURSE THEY COULD HAVE.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE DISSENTERS ARE SAYING THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE, I AGREE WITH THEM, THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT.

THE COURT COULD DEVELOP THE PROCEDURE, THEY'VE DONE THAT IN THE PAST.

THE PROCEDURES USED TODAY WERE NOT THERE 50 YEARS AGO AND WERE DEVELOPED BY THE COURTS, AND THE COURT COULD HOLD THIS CASE AND SAY THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO, YOU CAN SUE SO AND SO AND HERE'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO ALLEGE, YOU CAN SUE THE STATE, THE GOVERNOR, THE CHIEF JUSTICE, THE COURT COULD WORK OUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO.

MAYBE THEY WILL IF THE CASE GOES ON, AND THE WAY MAYBE YOU COULD GET THEM TO DO THAT IS THE CASE IS STILL BEFORE THE LOWER COURTS, SO EITHER THE FIFTH CIRCUIT OR THE DISTRICT JUDGE COULD TRY TO FIGURE OUT A PROCEDURE.

I DON'T THINK THE FIFTH CIRCUIT IS GOING TO DO THAT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO.

THE DISTRICT JUDGE MIGHT VERY WELL DO THAT.

THE CASE IS STILL THERE BEFORE HIM.

IN FACT, THERE'S A HEARING SCHEDULED THAT HE SCHEDULED ON THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE STATUTE.

SOMEBODY SHOULD WORK OUT THE RIGHT PROCEDURE, AND CAN EASILY BE DONE BY THE SUPREME COURT, BUT FIVE OF THEM DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.

FIVE OF THEM WANT TO WAIT TO SEE IF SOMEBODY ELSE DOES THAT OR PERHAPS THEY'RE WILLING TO WAIT TO SEE WHETHER THE CLINICS ARE WILLING TO VIOLATE THE STATUTE.

TED: THIS CASE IS FASCINATING AND COULD TALK FOR HOURS ON IT.

WE GOT A GREAT ANALYSIS FROM YOU.

THANKS AS ALWAYS.

ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> THANK YOU, TED.

TED: THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS.

YOU HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

COMING UP IN THE NEXT HALF HOUR ON CRONKITE NEWS, THE ARIZONA COYOTES QUEST FOR A NEW ARENA IN TEMPE.

>>> AND ON "BREAK IT DOWN," THE IMPACT OF DIVERSITY IN JOURNALISM.