(upbeat music) - Coming up in the next hour of local news on Arizona PBS, on Arizona Horizon, a Labor Day Special as we look at mandatory vaccinations at work, the history of the minimum wage and more.

And on break it down, how college athletes can now earn compensation for the use of their name, image and likeness.

It's all coming up in the next hour on Arizona PBS.

- [Narrator] This hour of local news is made possible by contributions from the friends of PBS, members of your PBS station.

Thank you.

- Good evening and welcome to this Special Labor Day Edition of Arizona Horizon.

I'm Ted Simons.

Tonight, we take a look at some of the ways that the COVID pandemic has impacted the world of work.

We start with a big question facing many workers.

Can your employer require you to take a COVID vaccine as a condition of employment?

We talked to ASU Law Professor, James Hodge, about vaccine mandates at work.

James Hodge, Good to see you.

Thank you for joining us today on Arizona Horizon.

We're talking vaccine mandates here.

What are the legal parameters of mandates for not just COVID vaccinations, but any vaccination?

- Well, it all starts with a very long history in the United States of allowing vaccine mandates for all the right reasons, Ted.

These are one of the most essential public health interventions we have to shut down infectious diseases, like COVID-19.

So we've used them for dozens of years, in school related settings, healthcare related settings, the legal precedents for what's being challenged right now in regards to COVID-19 vaccine mandates is really well settled.

We can and do use them routinely in the United States.

- So they are binding then?

- Yes, absolutely.

But let's be clear about the difference between a vaccine mandate and a forcible vaccination measure.

Vaccine mandates are not considered compulsory vaccinations.

What's the difference ?

A mandates basically saying, look for you to participate in this part of society for you to go to school, for you to go to work, for you to attend this football game, you're gonna need to be vaccinated to make sure we don't spread a particular infectious disease to others.

A forcible vaccine situation, which is not what's on the table in any governmental setting that we're speaking of right now is when government actually tries to actually compel you to get vaccinated.

They physically force you to do so.

That's not what we're dealing with here, even though a lot of Americans sometimes mistake that.

- I was gonna say, it sounds as though let's take Banner Health, for example, which says, if you wanna us to keep working here, you gotta be vaccinated by November 1st.

They're not forcing people to be vaccinated, but it's a defacto force.

I mean, you had the choice, but if you choose X you're outta here.

- Yeah, that's true.

And if you wanna go to university, if you wanna go to school this next semester, a lot of places across the country are instituting those same measures.

We still see those from a legal perspective as conditional.

There's a condition upon which you work here.

There's a condition upon which you get to attend school here.

You can walk away.

You're not forced into the vaccination.

That legally makes a very big difference, so we probably can't force people to get vaccinated, literally compel them to, but we can set conditions and are routinely starting to see these vaccine mandates show up in a lot of places, including very recently the National Football League setting one for its players in the near future.

- Yeah, and that's getting a lot of brush back by the minute it seemed by the football players.

A lot of whom just simply don't wanna be involved.

That being said, is there a difference between FDA Approved and FDA Authorized vaccine?

I mean, I can't just start a business and say, I've got a vaccine that I just made up in my basement.

You've got to dig it or else you're not gonna work here.

Correct?

- Yeah, that's right, Ted.

Don't try that.

We will come down hard on you on a regulatory nature because that's dangerous, and obviously something we would not allow, but here's what's not dangerous.

A vaccine like the likes of what you see in response to COVID-19 from Pfizer, from Moderna, from Johnson and Johnson that have undergone rigorous scrutiny by the Food and Drug Administration at the Federal Level, almost at the same sort of level, you'd see them fully approve a vaccine when we've gone through that process for what's called an emergency use authorization, the approval or the actual authorization that comes out of that is profound.

It's securing for at least our purposes, with the best available knowledge that the vaccine is safe, it's effective and it's gonna work to actually stop the threat of COVID-19.

So the differences you're seeing with mandates, is that some entities are saying, it's not fully FDA approved and thus we can't possibly mandate it, or we couldn't expect people to take it.

Well, the actual reality is legally, yes, you can issue a mandate around an authorized vaccine because those FDA authorized vaccines have undergone very heavy scrutiny as well.

And actually, as you're seeing for months on end now proven highly safe for use within the general population.

Consequently, vaccine mandates for authorized vaccine like what you're seeing with COVID-19 legitimate, legally, that's not a point of classification for distinguishing in this regard.

- And yet, the Supreme Court in ruling, the variety of rulings looks at religious freedom and looks very closely and finds this sacrosanct, if you will.

What about the religious freedom of those who for religious reasons don't wanna be vaccinated?

- That's such a great point, and it's a great point because in most states you still see a recognition and respect for those religious interests.

You see it within employer discrimination laws, as exceptions for person with religious objections or otherwise it's an important and profound facet of vaccination policy that we at least have some respect for those religious interests.

Let's also draw a line here because the Supreme Court is never said in its history that we have to provide a religious exemption for a general vaccine requirement.

And it's never said that because it's just not faced that specific issue and never had to issue that type of decision in a case before the US Supreme Court that could change.

- Okay.

- The reason that can change is court could be facing any number of different lawsuits that could accept and, or issue a very different opinion with a different constituency on the court that we've seen in prior years for sure.

- And that's exactly what I was going to ask.

The last question is this an evolving issue?

And will we see court cases on this?

- Oh, you bet.

I mean, they're already percolating nationally in so many different ways.

A recent case out of Texas affirmed a healthcare entity, a vaccine mandate, you saw a case out of Indiana just recently affirmed that Indiana University can require vaccines amongst the students.

But in the end, one of those cases on a religious freedom sort of perspective is gonna get to that higher level potentially even in the US Supreme Court.

And that court has shown during the COVID pandemic, a very strong respect for religious freedoms persistent or consistent with first amendment.

What does that mean?

It could, for the first time ever issue a perspective saying you have to provide a religious exception to these COVID-19 related mandates.

If that were to occur Ted, I predictably think that you'll see a greater number of persons exercise that exemption and as a result, you could see lower vaccination rates and what we'd hoped to see to quell this pandemic once and for all.

- Very interesting, James Hodge, ASU Center for Public Health Law, and policy.

Always a pleasure, sir.

Thank you.

- My pleasure, Ted, thank you for having me.

- And up next on this Labor Day special, the history of the minimum wage.

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(classical music ) - [Announcer] When London bridge was completed in 1831, the automobile didn't even exist.

By 1968 it may not have been falling down, but the bridge was sinking under the crush of modern traffic.

So the city of London decided to sell it to a developer in Arizona.

Just of state the Route 95 in Lake Havasu City, is a plaque memorializing, the dedication and reopening of the bridge in October 1971.

(upbeat music) A two day Gala included an elaborate dinner attended by 800 people, including then Arizona, Governor Jack Williams, and Sir Peter Studs, Lord Mayor of London, behind the fireworks and go-go girls, was over three years of risk-taking and hard work.

It was the dream of C.V Wood and Robert McCulloch who were developing the fledgling town.

The bridge was purchased for over $2 million.

The 22 million ton structure was dismantled each stone numbered and shipped 10,000 miles to Long Beach California, and then trucked to Lake Havasu's Colorado river bank.

It took 40 workers three years to reconstruct the bridge.

The original 19th century construction crew of 800 took seven years and 40 laborers died.

(upbeat music) The bridge survived the German Blitz of London during World War 2.

It's light poles are made from cannons seized from Napoleon's Army at the Battle of Waterloo at 1815, the metal melted down and forged into lamps.

Today the London bridge attracts over one and a half million sun seeking visitors a year exceeded only by the Grand Canyon.

- A minimum wage is a relatively recent aspect of employment in America, and it continues to be an issue for employers and employees.

We learn more about the history of the minimum wage with ASU Economist, Lee McPheters.

Lee McPheters good to see you, thank you for joining us here, Labor Day Special.

We're talking minimum wage this time.

When did the minimum wage start here in the US?

- Well, the first shot at the minimum wage of course, was during the great depression, somewhat of a response to that in 1933.

And it was immediately ruled unconstitutional.

So it got off to somewhat of a rocky start, but it became law in 1938 for the grand sum of twenty-five cents an hour.

And if you look back at the wording of some of the original legislation that you find reference to efforts to offset the evil of low wages and the dangers of low wages.

So certainly there was something that had some emotion associated with it since then, there it's really kind of turned into not so much a minimum wage, but more of a poverty wage.

And, I can kind of take you through some of the history of what happened for many years is that, Congress was fairly diligent about raising the wage, maybe not every single year, but periodically up until about 1968, 1970, and that was really that peak purchasing power for the minimum wage in today's dollars.

It was all the way up at about $12 an hour, and since then, what has happened from the seventies on is that the minimum wage has not been raised that much.

There've been periods where it has gone eight, seven, eight years without being increased.

Congress has kind of ignored it.

And the most recent increase was 2009.

And then it was 725, which is what it is today.

There is one interesting economic aspect to this stagnant minimum wage, and that is that many states about 20 states have kept the minimum wage at 725, but the others have allowed the wage to increase within their state and especially within some of the larger states.

And so if you actually look at how many people are at that $7 and 25 percent or the $7.25 minimum wage, it's about one and a half percent of the workforce.

So most people are not anywhere near that 725.

And if you're a minimum wage worker in the US, since you're influenced by state and in many cases, city minimum wages the average wage that you are making, if you're a minimum wage worker is $12 an hour.

I'm not sure that's very well known.

But you can see that the gap between $12 an hour for the effective minimum wage right now, and the $15 an hour minimum wage, that there's a lot of pressure and support for.

That gaps not that large.

So we're really not that far away, I think from having, I think some arguments that might influence Congress to at least increase the minimum wage, somewhat in the next couple of years.

- Well, let's talk about some of those arguments, the pros and cons, - [Lee] Sure.

- The impact of the minimum wage on goods and services, the impact of a minimum wage on the buying power of workers.

- Yeah, well, of course it cuts two ways and particularly it's aimed at small business, I think when we try to figure out who's getting hurt here, minimum wage goes up for a small business person.

Minimum wage goes up really only have three choices.

You can raise your own prices.

You can cut back on jobs, you can automate or innovate, and there's always been this concern that there is a direct link between an increase in the minimum wage and increase in unemployment.

That is the minimum wage actually costs jobs.

Unfortunately, there has been a tremendous number, I would say hundreds, maybe even thousands of economic studies trying to prove that one way or another, and we're still having trouble showing that.

On the kind of the con side(faintly speaking) what would you say about the minimum wage from a businessman's point of view, it's an extra cost, from the pro side of course, if you're a worker and if minimum wages build up across the country, you're gonna have opportunities, of course, for higher income, there's gonna be a greater purchasing power.

So that affects the economy as a whole.

And go ahead and going back to the business person, if you have a higher wage structure, this reduces turnover, which is very, very costly.

And in lots of these low wage, kind minimum wage businesses, the turnover can be 50, 60%.

And anything that could reduce that I think is really a real benefit for business people.

So, there's pros and cons on the minimum wage, but I think basically when you look at it, the social benefits of a higher minimum wage certainly are quite significant because it would, it is turned in, if you're a getting paid minimum wage right now, you can, you're basically in a poverty situation.

And that was never the original intent at all.

- Yeah, Lee McPheters, ASU Economist.

Lee, great information, Thank you so much.

We appreciate it.

- Okay Ted, good to talk to you.

(soft country music) - We wrap up our Labor Day Special with a look at how the pandemic has impacted labor, for that we spoke with, Sharon Irwin-Foulon of ASU WP Carey School of Business.

Sharon, thank you for joining us.

Thanks for being here on Arizona Horizon.

We're gonna pick your brain now about this labor.

First of all, is there a labor shortage in the US right now?

- Oh, you told me you were gonna ask me that question and it's, certainly that is what the media would suggest, but I think what's more interesting is it a labor shortage or is it a labor reset?

Where the power structure's a little different and people with having what happened has happened in the last 18 months rethinking how and why they're doing what they're doing.

- That's interesting.

Let's talk about that a little bit here, because some folks are saying that that a lot of people don't wanna go back to work.

'Cause they're still concerned about catching COVID, which means what a reset toward a more remote work environment.

- Yeah, I think part of it is worried about catching COVID.

Part of it's also, we rushed in March to restructure what was our work life?

How are we doing it.

And then we got into a rhythm of the hybrid, not even the hybrid, but working from home and the flexibility afforded us and how we managed to do it all a little bit better.

I'm not minimizing Ted like there are many stories of people who still struggle with the work from home scenario.

But I think for many in the middle of the bell curve, you can see how the life working from home and wanting to stay there.

Or at least hybrid is really questioning challenging for a lot of employers.

How do you balance the need or want for them to be on site and on ground, knowing that the vaccination rates are what they are and we're moving forward to a post COVID world, but we've proven so much more that we can do this working from home and our productivity can be high.

And so it's this balance between employee and employer and all those dynamics.

- How much does increased pay affect that balance?

Because a lot of folks are saying, okay, if I'm gonna reset, if I'm gonna try something new, I wanna make more money this go around.

- Yeah, and then at the other end of the spectrum, there's people who say, you know what?

I don't need to travel.

I don't need to eat out as much.

I don't need to.

Maybe I need less.

If it means I've got a different or better, more healthy work-life balance.

- Okay.

- I think, right it's a continuum.

- Right, but with that in mind, I mean, employers have to figure out how much more am I gonna have to pay these folks.

- There's that.

And there's also the idea of what's there's the pay.

There's the comp for sure that's one piece of it, but then there's the other pieces of how much am I demanding them in work?

That they're actually on ground.

How much am I allowing remote work to be a piece of it?

I know Korn Ferry, Russell Reynolds, a lot of the large search consultant firms are saying that's gotta be part of an employer brand now, flexibility.

I know that I can go to the cottage.

I know that I can go up north in the hot summer months and enjoy work and life all at the same time.

And that needs to be an option that's easy.

And I don't feel guilty about.

- Market conditions would suggest that with all these options and all this rethinking out here with the help of jobless benefits, which gives people more time to make these considerations, that salaries hourly pay would increase.

Is that a, does that make any sense?

- I think it does, Ted and I, it's but again, from my perspective, I think it's, the suite or the scorecard compensation matters.

Is it a five day workweek?

Is it a four day work week?

Same pay four days working like what's the composition of work-life balance comp, benefits, flexibility on my lifestyle?

All those pieces.

I think it is definitely a sellers market from an employee to organizations.

My biggest worry and what's creating a shortage is that organizations are being slow.

They're wanting to go back to what used to be.

And I just don't think that's the power dynamic anymore.

- Interesting, interesting.

Cohorts here.

I mean, younger folks, older folks, who's doing the reconsidering?

Who's doing the re-evaluating?

- Well, I don't know about you Ted, but when I think about folks, my age, that great resignation that keeps getting spoken about, 26% of the North American population is looking for a job, a different job, some dropping responsibilities, comp, whatever others, to your point, elevating it.

I, yeah, I'm not sure what is ahead for us.

And I've lost track of your question.

- That's okay.

I think I might have as well.

Let's go to this though.

Let's talk about starting your own business.

- [Sharon] Okay.

- I hear a lot of folks are taking this opportunity to say, you know what, I'm tired of working for the man I'm gonna start working for myself, are those folk tales?

Or are those really happening?

- No, I am increasingly hearing about this and it comes back to if I'm gonna work this hard why not do it for myself, and I think one of the, when I think about my executive coaching practice, when I think about the students we're seeing, and when our alumni come back here at WP Carey, what they're talking about is that idea of what kind of problems do I wanna solve now?

If I'm gonna spend time at work, what's going, where am I gonna thrive?

Where am I gonna enjoy what I'm doing?

How am I gonna contribute?

And I think that is part of that entrepreneurial spirit where you say, if I'm gonna solve these problems and what are they, and I've got some gifts to bear, why not do it for myself and have more control potentially over outcomes because I'm now the owner.

- Yeah, yeah.

It brings up a good point.

And the last question here for you, and we thank you again for your time over there at the WP Carey School of Business.

Teaching business principles and business practices, how has the pandemic changed or will it change that dynamic?

- Yeah, I think, WP Carey is a top business school because we teach the fundamentals of problem solving.

I would argue that's what a good business school does.

Do I think that being embedded within ASU is a benefit for our students, I sure do.

There's so many unpredictable problems that will come over the next zero to three years.

That will be the echo effect on what has been the last year and a half.

And I think our students are well situated to really think through what are the problems I wanna solve and to take this toolbox forward and utilize it and make a difference and have an impact in the world.

- Yeah, that echo effect is a great way of putting it.

Sharon Irwin-Foulon, WP Carey School of Business.

Thank you so much for your time.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you Ted, take good care.

Thank you.

- [Narrator] We wanna hear from you, submit your questions, comments, and concerns via email at arizonahorizon@asu.edu.

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What you are doing is criminal.

- We have to find another way ahead.

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( soft upbeat music) - And that is it for now, I'm Ted Simons.

Thank you so much for joining us on this Special Labor Day Edition of Arizona Horizon.

You have a great evening.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Coming up in the next half hour of local news on Arizona PBS on break it down.

How college athletes can now earn compensation for the use of their name, image and likeness.

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