ACROSS THE STATE EROSION IS EATING AWAY AT OUR PRISTINE SHORELINES.

BEACHES ARE STARVING FOR SAND DUE TO A NUMBER OF CAUSES.

THOSE CAN RANGE FROM SEA LEVEL RISE TO EFFECTS OF STRUCTURES DESIGNED TO PROTECT BUILDINGS RATHER THAN THE COAST.

AS HOMES, HOTELS AND HIGHWAYS SIT PRECARIOUSLY AT THE WATER'S EDGE, CAN A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION BE FOUND TO SAVE OUR BEACHES?

TONIGHT'S LIVE BROADCAST AND THE LIVESTREAM OF INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII START NOW.

¶¶ ¶¶ WELCOME TO INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII.

I'M YUNJI DE NIES.

HAWAII IS KNOWN AROUND THE WORLD FOR OUR ICONIC BEACHES.

BUT MANY ARE DISAPPEARING RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES.

EACH YEAR, BEACHFRONT PROPERTIES AND ROADS ARE THREATENED OF BEING WASHED AWAY WITH EVERY POUNDING OF LARGE SURF OR BATTERING BY STORMS.

ARE OUR SHRINKING SHORELINES FORCING BOTH LAND AND LIFE TO RETREAT?

A STUDY FROM RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII AT MANOA SCHOOL OF OCEAN AND EARTH SCIENCES AND TECHNOLOGY FOUND THAT 40 PERCENT OF OAHU BEACHES COULD DISAPPEAR OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS, IF COASTAL MANAGEMENT POLICIES ARE NOT CHANGED TO BETTER PROTECT OUR SHORELINES.

OUR PANEL TONIGHT WILL DISCUSS HOW WE CAN KEEP OUR BEACHES FROM VANISHING.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR PARTICIPATION IN TONIGHT'S SHOW.

YOU CAN EMAIL OR CALL IN YOUR QUESTIONS.

AND YOU’LL FIND A LIVE STREAM OF THIS PROGRAM AT PBSHAWAII.ORG AND THE PBS HAWAII FACEBOOK PAGE.

NOW, TO OUR GUESTS.

SHELLIE HABEL IS A COASTAL GEOLOGIST WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII SEA GRANT PROGRAM.

SHE’S ALSO CONTRACTED AS THE COASTAL LANDS PROGRAM COORDINATOR FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES.

IN HER ROLE SHE PROVIDES SUPPORT ON ISSUES LIKE BEACH CONSERVATION, APPROPRIATE COASTAL LAND USE AND REGULATORY PERMIT REVIEW.

CHIP FLETCHER IS AN ASSOCIATE DEAN FOR ACADEMIC AFFAIRS AND A PROFESSOR IN UH MANOA’S SCHOOL OF OCEAN AND EARTH SCIENCES AND TECHNOLOGY.

HE’S ALSO THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE HONOLULU CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION.

HE AND HIS STUDENTS HAVE PUBLISHED MORE THAN 120 PEER REVIEWED ARTICLES ON BEACH PROCESSES, THE NATURAL HISTORY OF HAWAIIAN REEFS AND IMPACTS OF SEA LEVEL RISE.

LAUREN BLICKLEY IS BASED ON MAUI AND IS THE HAWAII REGIONAL MANAGER FOR THE SURFRIDER FOUNDATION.

THE NON PROFIT WORKS TO PROTECT THE WORLD’S OCEANS, WAVES AND BEACHES.

IT WAS FORMED IN 1984 BY A GROUP OF SURFERS IN MALIBU, CALIFORNIA WHO WERE CONCERNED ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL THREATS FROM COASTAL DEVELOPMENT AT THEIR FAVORITE SURF BREAK.

AND PRESLEY WANN WAS BORN AND RAISED ON OAHU BUT MOVED TO KAUAI IN 1979.

HE’S A BOARD MEMBER WITH MALAMA KUAAINA.

THE ORGANIZATION WORKS TO SUPPORT THE PRESERVATION AND PROTECTION OF KAUAI’S NATURAL AND PUBLIC RESOURCES.

>>YUNJI: THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE TONIGHT.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU.

I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

AND THAT REPORT THAT SAYS THAT ALL OF THOSE RESOURCES COULD DISAPPEAR IN SUCH SHORT TIME.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HAVING BEACHES ESSENTIALLY VANISH, WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> REALLY BOILS DOWN TO AS YOU DESCRIBE, PROTECTING THE HUMAN DEVELOPMENT THAT IS LOCATED ON THE MAUKA SIDE OF THE SHORELINE.

PROTECTING ROADS, HOMES, ASSETS THAT WE HAVE SPENT MONEY PUTTING IN UNDER A SYSTEM OF LAWS THAT DID NOT UNTIL RECENTLY RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT SEA LEVEL IS RISING.

KNOWN FOR MANY DECADES OCEAN IS RISING.

AND THIRD GRADER WILL UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT IF THE OCEAN IS RISING, SHORELINE HAS TO MIGRATE LAND WARD.

OTHERWISE, IT WILL GET DROWNED.

FOR GEOLOGICAL REASON, MUCH OF THE LAND IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO OUR BEACHES IS ACTUALLY VERY SANDY LAND.

AND THE RISING OCEAN WILL ERODE THAT LAND.

IT WILL RELEASE THE SAND AND BEACH CAN CONTINUE TO MIGRATE WITH THE RISING WATER.

THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE DEVELOPED AND BUILT ON THESE PRECIOUS LANDS TO THE EXTENT THAT NOW, THE DE FACTO PERMIT SYSTEM, THE REAL PERMIT SYSTEM, THAT OPERATES, NOT THE ONE THAT IS WRITTEN DOWN AS WHAT THE OBJECTIVES ARE, BUT THE REAL PERMITS SYSTEM IS STRONGLY BIASED IN FAVOR OF PROTECTING INDIVIDUAL PARCELS OF LAND WHERE LANDOWNERS HAVE PUT THEIR DWELLING OR OWN THAT LAND.

NOW, I'M STATING THIS VERY STRONGLY.

INDIVIDUAL CASES CERTAINLY ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT.

IF YOU LOOK OVER LONG HISTORY OF COASTAL ZONE MANAGEMENT IN HAWAII, JUST THE FACT THAT WE HAVE LOST MILES AND MILES OF BEACH, IS A TESTIMONY TO THE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM HAS NOT REALLY WORKED.

IT'S BECAUSE IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY BASED ON A FLAWED ASCENSION THAT THE SHORELINE IS GOING TO BE STABLE.

WHERE WITH RISING SEA LEVEL IT WON'T.

IT HAS TO MIGRATE.

>>Yunji: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE 40%.

IS THERE A PARTICULAR PART OF THE ISLAND THAT IS MORE VULNERABLE THAN OTHERS?

>> WELL, AT THAT STUDY LOOKED AT THE BACK SHORE LAND USES AND MADE ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON HISTORICAL PERMITTING OF SEA WALLS, AND OTHER PROTECTIVE DEVICES TO PROTECT THE LAND.

WHAT WOULD BE PROTECTED IN THE FUTURE AND WHAT WOULD NOT.

AND OUR ASSUMPTION WAS THAT UNDEVELOPED LAND WOULD BE ALLOWED TO ERODE BUT ROADS BUILDINGS, OTHER DEVELOPED ASSETS WHICH REPRESENT THE INVESTMENT OF OUR TREASURE, WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE DESTROYED BY THE MIGRATING SHORELINE AND WOULD BE PROTECTED WITH SOME SORT OF SANDBAG OR SEA WALL OR WHATEVER.

WE KNOW THAT KILLS BEACHES AND ESPECIALLY WHEN SEA LEVELS RISE.

>>Yunji: WE WERE TALKING WITH CHIP ABOUT OAHU, BUT WHAT OTHER AREAS OF THE STATE ARE MOST VULNERABLE RIGHT NOW?

>> WEST MAUI COMES TO MIND.

THERE'S ALSO PARTS OF I GUESS IT WOULD BE EAST KAUAI.

AREAS LIKE KAPAA, FACING A LOT OF EROSION ISSUES.

SEEING EXACTLY WHAT DR. FLETCHER DESCRIBED IS THAT DWINDLING AWAY OF THE SHORELINE AS YOU HAD THAT COASTAL SPEED.

YOU HAVE LIKE LONGTERM CHRONIC EROSION THAT IS MOVING THAT SHORELINE INLAND TOWARDS SOMETHING THAT IS FIXED.

LIKE A HOUSE OR A ROAD.

SO YEAH, WE'RE STARTING TO SEE THAT PLAY OUT AMONG OUR SHORELINES IN REAL TIME.

>>Yunji: WHAT CAN BE DONE TO MITIGATE THAT IN REAL TIME?

WE TALKED ABOUT HE MENTIONED SOME OF THOSE MITIGATION MEASURES.

BUT THOSE CAN END UP DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

>> RIGHT.

YEAH.

SO EROSION IS A REALLY TRICKY ISSUE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T STOP IT.

SO SEA LEVEL RISE IS CAUSING THIS CHRONIC EROSION.

JUST LIKE CAN'T STOP A HURRICANE.

YOU CAN'T STOP THAT INLAND RETREAT OF THE SHORELINE.

THERE IS RELATIONSHIP LIKE A COASTAL GEOLOGY RELATIONSHIP CALLED GROIN WALL.

SIMPLIFIES THAT RELATIONSHIP.

SHORELINE MOVING INLAND WHERE EVERY INCREMENT OF SEA LEVEL RISE YOU HAVE CAUSES A LAND WARD SHIFT IN THAT COASTLINE BY 50 TO 100 TIMES THAT AMOUNT.

SO ONE FOOT OF SEA LEVEL RISE WOULD EQUAL 50 TO 100 FEET OF LOSS.

YOU CAN'T REALLY STOP THAT MARCHING INLAND OF THE COASTLINE.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS MANAGE IT.

THERE'S MAINLY THREE WAYS OF MANAGING IT.

ONE WAY IS HARDENING WHICH WE KNOW FROM DR. FLETCHER MENTIONED.

REALLY DEGRADING TO THE BEACHES.

2, RESTORATION PROJECT.

LIKE BEACH AND DUNE RESTORATION.

ADD SAND TO THE BEACH.

MOVE THAT OUT TO HISTORICAL FOOTPRINT.

THEN THE THIRD IS RETREAT.

WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS MANAGED IS ANOTHER THING.

>>Yunji: LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE MEASURES A LITTLE MORE DEEPLY.

VERY INTERESTING TO HEAR THEM LAID OUT ONE BY ONE LIKE THAT.

YOU GAVE US A PHOTOGRAPH THAT I WANTED TO CALL UP OF A CONDO ON MAUI THAT I THINK REALLY SHOWCASES THE PROBLEM.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT THEY DID THERE AND WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM IT?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE PICTURE YOU'RE LOOK AT.

ROYAL KAHANA.

AND THIS IS AN AREA THAT JUST MENTIONED WEST MAUI IS ONE OF YOUR HOT SPOT.

AREAS ALL THE WAY FROM ESSENTIALLY UKAMEHAMI ALONG WEST MAUI.

IS ERODING.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, AS WE HAVE CONDOS WE HAVE INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS, THAT ARE IMMINENT THREAT.

OF THE COASTLINE.

WITH ROYAL KAHANA, THE EL NINO YEAR OF 2015 2016, REALLY IMPACTED THAT COASTLINE SIGNIFICANTLY.

AND THAT CORNER THAT YOU SAW OF THE BUILDING, LIKE I CAN STAND THERE AND STRETCH MY ARMS OUT.

THAT'S ABOUT HOW FAR THAT CORNER OF THE BUILDING IS FROM THE SAND BAGS.

AND I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, THE SAND BAGS ARE IN AND THERE'S A PROPOSAL TO HAVE THIS SERIES OF T GROINS ALONG THERE.

BUT ISSUE SURFRIDERRER FOUNDATION RUNNING UP AGAINST.

AS ADVOCACY ORGANIZATION.

OF ULTIMATELY, WE HAVE TO MOVE BACK.

AND EVERY SINGLE THING WE'RE DOING CAN BUY A LITTLE MORE TIME.

BUT TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, ULTIMATELY, OCEAN IS GOING TO WIN.

ALWAYS GOING TO PREVAIL WHETHER WE HOLD IT OFF FOR FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS, MAYBE 50 YEARS.

SO IN THESE INSTANCES, SURFRIDERRER SPECIFICALLY TRYING TO PUSH FOR IF WE HAVE SOME OF THESE PROJECTS GO IN.

SAND BAGS GO IN.

HOW DO WE GET THEM OUT?

IN FOR EMERGENCY PERMIT.

SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FOR 3 YEARS.

>> BEEN THERE LONGER THAN 3 YEARS.

CHALLENGES OF LIKE WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

WHAT IF WE TAKE THEM OUT?

THAT BUILDING IS GOING TO FALL IN.

WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES LOOK LIKE?

SHELLEY WAS SAYING, SUPERCOMPLICATED.

REALLY REALLY CHALLENGING.

>>Yunji: BEYOND SAND BAGS, THINGS LIKE GROINS THAT YOU MENTIONED OR SEA WALLS THAT HOMEOWNERS HAVE PUT UP A LOT OF THOSE ONES WE KNOW AT LEAST ON OAHU, WERE PUT IN IN THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES.

WHEN PEOPLE PERHAPS DIDN'T KNOW AS MUCH OR WERE NOT AS AWARE AS THEY WERE NOW.

WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HAVING SEA WALLS.

LOOK AT THAT ONE.

SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN SEE AT THEIR FAVORITE BEACH.

WHEN WE HAVE THOSE, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BEACH?

>> WE LOSE IT.

DON'T HAVE A BEACH.

THAT'S WHAT HE FOUND WITH SEA WALLS.

SEA WALLS I THINK IT WAS DR. FLETCHER HAS PROBABLY WRITTEN A PAPER ON IT SHOWING HOW SEA WALLS CONTINUE TO EXACERBATE THE EROSION.

ANOTHER PART JUST THE NORTH OF THAT PICTURE THAT YOU SAW, IS A STRETCHES OF SEA WALLS.

SO THOSE SEA WALLS EXACERBATED AND CREATED THAT SITUATION AT ROYAL KAHANA DOWN TO POHAKU BEACH PARK WE'RE DEALING WITH.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO BRING YOU IN ON THIS.

IDEA OF RETREAT, IT IS HEARTBREAKING FOR LOT OF TO US LOOK AT THAT AND THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE PLACE WE LOVE SO DEARLY.

ESSENTIALLY BEING, GIVEN TO THE SEA IF YOU WILL.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON ALL OF THIS?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, ALL OF MY KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN AND EXPERIENCED, NOT A SCIENTIST BY ANY MEANS.

ALL I AM IS LIKE MY ANCESTORS, AN OBSERVER.

AND WATERMAN FOR 64 OF MY YEARS OF MY LIFE, I'VE WITNESSED AND FELT A LOT OF CHANGES.

YEAH?

AND SO I THINK LIKE YOU SAID, IT'S SAD TO SEE, TO WATCH, I'M 72 YEARS OLD.

I'VE SEEN A LOT.

AND SURFED ALL OF WAIKIKI.

AND ALL OVER IN THIS WHOLE STATE.

BUT WHAT MY FRIEND TOLD ME, TO ADDRESS YOUR QUESTION, IS MY FRIEND RUPERT ROW TOLD ME ALL THE TIME.

YOU KNOW, ALL OF OUR ANSWERS TO THE FUTURE ARE IN THE PAST.

SO I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH POWERS THAT BE.

THAT THEY'RE NOT RECOGNIZING CULTURE AND TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE WHEN THEY STARTED WITH THESE PERMITTING.

WE GOT TO LOOK TO THE PAST FOR THE ANSWERS TO THE FUTURE.

OUR KUPUNA, THEY NEVER BUILT BY THE OCEAN.

NEVER LIVED BY THE OCEAN.

REALLY CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

THEY GO INLAND, BUT THEY NEVER BUILT ON THE SAND DUNES.

NEVER LIVED ON THE SAND DUNES.

THEY WOULD HAVE HALES MAYBE A CANOE HALE OR KEEP YOUR FISH NETS.

ON THE SAND DUNES.

BUT IN THE PROCESS OF PROGRESS, WE'VE WIPED WIPED OUT ONE OF MOST IMPORTANT THINGS WE HAD AS NATURAL RESOURCE AND A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACED TODAY ARE BECAUSE WE HAD SAND DUNES.

A LOT OF SAND DUNES ALL OVER.

LIKE KAUAI.

RIGHT DOWN HERE AT KAPAA.

SHELLEY WAS MENTIONING, OUR HIGHWAY IS REALLY ENDANGERED.

IN ANTIQUITY, RIGHT THERE ON THE SHORELINE, RIGHT IN FRONT OF COCO PALMS.

SAND DUNES 30, 40, FEET HIGH.

THEY'RE GONE.

>> BECAUSE WE LEVELED IT TO MAKE A HIGHWAY.

LEVEL PROPERTIES TO MAKE IT MORE VALUABLE.

MAKE IT MORE APPEALING.

SO WE HAVE TAKEN AWAY THAT RESERVE THAT HAS BEEN WOULD REPLENISH BECAUSE OUR KUPUNA KNEW THAT THINGS LIKE THIS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE'VE ONLY BEEN ON THIS EARTH JUST A SPECK OF SAND IN THE WHOLE SCOPE OF THIS EARTH.

SO WE DON'T REALLY KNOW ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE THINK WE KNOW.

ANY WAY, I THINK WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO SHELLEY SAID, RETREAT.

I THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE ULTIMATE LESSON WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEFINITELY CONSIDER.

>>Yunji: CHIP, ON THAT ISSUE OF RETREAT, THERE'S A QUESTION HERE FROM DR. SATORA, ELIZABETH SATORA IS.

WHY ARE THERE NO SERIOUS PLANS TO MOVE MOST VULNERABLE COASTAL ROADS FURTHER INLAND?

ALL OF THE PANELISTS MENTIONED VARIOUS ROADS ON ALMOST EVERY ISLAND THAT ARE VULNERABLE.

IS THERE A PLAN IN PLACE OR SHOULD THERE BE MORE PLANNING IN PLACE TO ACTUALLY MOVE THE ROADS?

>> FIRST, I WANT TO COMPLEMENT PRESLEY FOR REALLY BEAUTIFUL DESCRIPTION OF THE SITUATION.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE IS NOTHING GOING ON HERE THAT HAS NOT BEEN KNOWN FOR MANY GENERATIONS BY PEOPLE WHO WATCH NATURE.

AND YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT A SCIENTIST.

I BEG TO DIFFER.

ANYBODY WHO WATCHES NATURE IS A SCIENTIST.

AND INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE, THERE ARE LESSONS TO BE SHARED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS I THINK.

AND JUST SORT OF A SIDE BAR, IT'S BEEN SHOWN THAT A LOT OF THE SAND IN THESE DUNES WAS ACTUALLY TAKEN DURING THE PLANTATION ERA AND YOU CAN BAKE IT AND MAKE LIME OUT OF IT AND IT BECOME A FERTILIZER.

SO A LOT OF THE DUNE ROBBERY, IF YOU WILL, WAS DONE DURING THE PLANTATION TIME.

MORE SAND TAKEN FROM OUR DUNES TO BE USED IN LAYING OUT ROADS.

IT'S BEEN USED NO CONSTRUCTION.

SAND IS A VALUABLE RESOURCE.

AND NOW, WE'RE PAYING FOR THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN SAND AS A VALUABLE RESOURCE.

IT HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY VALUED FROM AN ECONOMIC POINT OF VIEW.

FROM A SOCIAL POINT OF VIEW.

AND GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT I'LL GET TO THE ROADS IN A SECOND, BUT YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA OF RETREAT THREATENS TO BECOME LATEST CHAPTER OF LAND THEFT IN A LONG HISTORY OF LAND THEFT IN HAWAII.

BECAUSE THE OCEAN IS NOW MOVING ON TO AREAS WHERE WE HAVE PLACED A LOT OF COMMUNITIES.

AND GOVERNMENT IS AT RISK IF GOVERNMENT COMES DOWN TO RELOCATE THESE COMMUNITIES WITH A TOP DOWN APPROACH, IT THREATENS TO BECOME A LAND THEFT SITUATION.

IS THERE A PROCESS WHERE YOU ENTER A COMMUNITY, YOU LISTEN TO THEIR STORIES.

ALLOW THE COMMUNITY TO SHARE THEIR HISTORY.

WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED, IT'S A MULTICHAPTER STORY.

THE MULTIPLE VISITATIONS BETWEEN A COMMUNITY, BETWEEN POLICYMAKERS, BETWEEN SCIENTISTS WOULD CAN ACT AS RESOURCE PEOPLE WITH REGARD TO SEA LEVEL RISE AND IMPACTS.

BUT ULTIMATELY, OUR COASTAL COMMUNITIES AND SO MANY OF THEM ARE UNDER SERVED BY GOVERNMENT.

COASTAL COMMUNITIES SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THEIR FUTURE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE LARGER COMMUNITY.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A COMPLEX PROCESS?

YES.

HAVE WE GOTTEN STARTED ON IT?

NO.

IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE BUT IT DOES HAVE TO INVOLVE TIME AND ENGAGEMENT AND REACHING OUT.

WITH REGARD TO THE ROADS, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION HAS PRETTY DETAILED STUDY THAT YOU CAN FIND ONLINE, THEY'VE IDENTIFIED EVERY SEGMENT OF COASTAL ROADWAY THAT IS UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE STATE LEVEL.

AND THEY EVEN HAVE IDENTIFIED ALTERNATIVES WHAT TO DO WITH THE ROAD.

MAKE A LOW BRIDGE.

LET THE WATER WASH UNDERNEATH IT.

RELOCATE THE ROAD COMPLETELY.

ESTIMATES FOR SO OF THE COSTS.

IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY MAYBE SHELLEY CAN CORRECT ME, BUT I THINK THE TOTAL COMBINED COST OF OUR COASTAL HIGHWAYS THAT THREATENED WITH SEA LEVEL RISE, SOMETHING LIKE 15 BILLION OR 19 BILLION.

IT'S AROUND THAT.

TEENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.

ONE PLACE WHERE WE MIGHT MAKE GREAT HEAD WAY ON THIS IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL SLOWLY MOVING THROUGH CONGRESS.

HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BRING LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO GET STARTED ON THAT PROBLEM.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO BRING YOU IN FOR THIS QUESTION.

FACEBOOK.

WHEN HONOLULU AREAS FLOOD, STAR ADVERTISER REFERS TO HIGH TIDE AN KING TIDE BEING THE CAUSE.

>> DON'T REMEMBER THIS HAPPENING GROWING UP HERE SINCE THE EARLY SIXTIES.

ISN'T THIS FLOODING REALLY RESULT OF SEA LEVEL RISE?

I HAVE TO AGREE.

I GREW UP IN HAWAII.

DON'T EVER REMEMBER KING TIDES BEING PART OF THE CONVERSATION WHEN I WAS A KID.

MAYBE I JUST MISSED THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THIS PHENOMENA?

>> YEAH.

THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

YEAH.

SO WHAT KING TIDES ARE, DEFINITION, LIKE THE TRUE DEFINITION OF THEM IS JUST THE HIGHEST TIDE OF THE YEAR CAUSED BY SUN AND THE MOON LINING UP.

THAT'S IT.

HIGHEST TIDE OF THE YEAR.

SO WHEN YOU HAVE THAT REGULAR TIDAL CYCLE, ON TOP OF WHAT IS RISING SEA LEVELS, THEN YOU GET HIGHER, LIKE MORE AND MORE EXTREME KING TIDES AS YOU GO FORWARD IN TIME.

SO YEAH, AS FAR BACK AS YOU GO IN TIME, THEY'VE HAD KING TIDES, BUT THEY'RE BECOMING MORE EXTREME.

SO STARTING TO DECLINE.

>>Yunji: INTERESTING.

I WANT TO BRING YOU IN ON THIS.

MICHAEL ON MAUI ASKED QUESTION ABOUT MITIGATION MEASURE.

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED USING GROINS RATHER THAN SEA WALLS?

I'VE NEVER HEARD OF A GROIN.

ANKLE SEA WALLS TO DIVERT THE SURGE OF WAVES AND PREVENT BACK WASH?

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED?

>> I'M GOING TO DEFER THAT TO THE ENGINEERS.

FROM A SURFRIDER PERSPECTIVE, WE DON'T SUPPORT ANY ENGINEERING IN THE COASTAL AREAS.

SO WHAT WE DO SUPPORT IN CERTAIN CASES WOULD BE BEACH RENOURISHMENT, ON SMALL SCALE AND CASE BY CASE.

THE OTHER THING THAT WE WOULD SUPPORT ARE LIKE NATURAL LIVING SYSTEMS.

SO DUNE RESTORATION THAT TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, RESTORING WHAT THE NATURAL COASTLINE IS GOING TO DO, I THINK THE CHALLENGE, I'M NOT A COASTAL ENGINEER, BUT WHAT I ENVISION EVEN SOMETHING SLOPED IS STILL NOT GIVING THE BEACH THE ABILITY TO MOVE AND MIGRATE.

I'M GLAD PRESLEY BROUGHT UP THE IMPORTANCE OF OBSERVATION BECAUSE I'M A SURFER.

AND I GO DOWN TO MY FAVORITE SURF SPOT AND YOU KNOW YOU LOOK AT IT, THERE'S A LOT OF SAND ON THE REEF.

AT THE BEGINNING OF SUMMER.

ON THE SOUTH SHORE.

A LOT OF SAND.

BY THE END SUMMER, TAKE IT FOR GRANT, CONSTANTLY JUST I GUESS IN TUNE WITH IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AS OUR SURFRIDER CHAPTERS IS HOW TO BETTER CONNECT AND THEN IN CASES RECONNECT PEOPLE TO THAT COASTLINE.

AND BETTER SORT OF OBSERVING BECAUSE THEN WE'RE LIKE HOW DO WE MAKE THIS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE?

BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS THIS SHIFTING BASELINE.

SO THE BEACHES THAT YOU HAD WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER VERSUS WHAT I HAD WHEN I WAS YOUNGER VERSUS WHAT MY DAUGHTERS ARE GOING TO HAVE, IT SHIFTS.

START TO GET OKAY WITH THE BEACH, WITH THIS SEA WALL, WHERE YOU CAN'T WALK AT HIGH TIDE.

AND THAT IS CREATING I THINK A LOT OF ISSUES TOO.

WE'RE BECOMING DISCONNECTED FROM THAT SAND.

WE'RE, IT IS SO FUNNY BUT LIKE, I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED HOW IMPORTANT SAND IS.

I LOVE SAND.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT SAND IS CRITICAL.

AND WE TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE OBSERVANT OF IT BECAUSE THEN WE CAN SEE HOW IT INTERACTS WITH SEA WALLS, WITH SAND BAGS, AND WHAT WE'RE LOSING AND WHAT WE LOST.

>>Yunji: LET'S BRING MICHAEL'S QUESTION TO YOU ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF GROINS.

ALSO ON THE ISSUE OF SAND AND REPLENISHMENT.

ONE OF THE MOST SORT OF WELL KNOWN SAND REPLENISHMENT HAPPENS, SEEMS LIKE EVERY FEW YEARS, AT WAIKIKI.

WE SEE THESE BULLDOZERS COMING IN JUST PILING ON THE SAND.

IS THAT A WORTHY EFFORT?

WE KNOW THAT OF COURSE, FOR THE TOURISM INDUSTRY, THIS IS THE JEWEL OF OUR ECONOMY.

IF YOU WILL.

BUT CAN WE PUMP IN ENOUGH SAND TO KEEP THIS GOING?

>> WELL, DIRECT ANSWER TO THE LAST BIT OF QUESTION IS GOING TO GROW MORE AND MORE EXPENSIVE AS SEA LEVEL RISES HIGHER AND HIGHER TO HOLD THE SHORELINE IS GOING TO BECOMING INCREASINGLY EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT.

SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT A GROW IN IS.

POTENTIALLY THAT IS THE WORD GROIN?

A GROIN IS A SEA WALL.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WAS WONDERING.

>> PERPENDICULAR.

IDEA OF USING PLANT GROWTH WITH VERY DEEP ROOTS.

WHICH IS JUST A VEGETATED SEA WALL IN MY MIND.

ANYTHING THAT BINDS UP THE SAND AND PREVENTS WAVES FROM GETTING TO IT, REALLY DOESN'T HELP THE SITUATION.

BUT THEN IT ALSO SEEMED LIKE YOU WERE DESCRIBING INSTEAD OF A VERTICAL WALL, A SLOPING WALL.

WE CALL THAT A REVETMENT.

VERTICAL WALL IS A SEA WALL IT HAS A SMALL FOOTPRINT.

WHEN YOU PLACE IT ON A BEACH, DOESN'T BURY A LOT OF BEACH UNDERNEATH THE CEMENT.

REVETMENT CAN HAVE 2 TO 1 SLOPE ON IT.

YOU BURY A LOT OF SAND UNDER THE REVETMENT WAVES DISSIPATE ENERGY AS THEY RUN UP THE REVETMENT AND COME BACK DOWN AGAIN.

NOT AS EROSION TAKING PLACE.

LOW TIDE IN FRONT OF MANY REVETMENTS FIND A LITTLE STRIP OF WET SAND AND PEOPLE WILL DESPERATELY IN MY MIND POINT TO THAT AND SAY, LOOK, THE BEACH IS DOING JUST FINE.

ALL OF THIS IS PREVENTING THE SHORELINE FROM MIGRATING LAND WARD.

ANYTHING THAT PREVENTS SHORELINE FROM MIGRATING SEA LEVEL IS RISING HAS TO MIGRATE.

INTERFERING WITH NATURE AND NATURAL BEACH PROCESSES.

NOT GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THE BEACH.

HOW DO YOU APPROACH THE PROBLEM DIFFERENTLY?

YOU PLACE SAND THERE.

AND A LOT OF WAYS TO SORT OF VALUE THAT APPROACH.

IN WAIKIKI, THUS FAR, STATE MADE DECISION BASED ON ECONOMICS.

THERE IS 4 TO $6 MILLION SPENT TO PUT A BEACH IN.

AND 4 TO $6 MILLION IS SPENT BY TOURISTS FROM BRITAIN AND IN THE SPACE OF 2 MONTH OR SOMETHING.

RIGHT?

4 TO $6 MILLION IS A VERY GOOD COST FOR THE ENORMOUS BENEFIT THAT YOU GET PURELY FROM A ECONOMIC POINT OF VIEW.

WHERE YOU HAVE A BEACH.

YOU ALSO PRESERVE OF THE PUBLIC TRUST OF ACCESS TO AND ALONG THE SHORELINE.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

TO BE ABLE TO GET TO THE SURF SPOTS.

GO SURFING.

IF YOU PUT IN TOO MUCH SAND, WHICH HAS BEEN CLAIMED, YOU CAN ACTUALLY, THAT SAND WILL HEAD OFFSHORE AND WILL SOFTEN UP OR DESTROY THE SURF.

SO IT'S A DELICATE DECISION.

WAIKIKI, DECISIONS LARGELY ECONOMIC.

AND SOME OTHER LOCATIONS.

MAYBE ECONOMICS IS NOT THE RIGHT DECISION TO MAKE.

NOT THE RIGHT VALUE TO PLACE ON IT.

>>Yunji: PRESLEY, WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT THE ECONOMICS, WHAT IS LOST WHEN HE LOSE, WE LOSE LAND VALUES.

IN THE CASE OF WAIKIKI, WE COULD LOSE TOURISM DOLLARS.

WHEN WE LOSE THESE SPACES, WHEN WE LOSE THIS COASTLINE?

WHAT ELSE IS LOST?

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE INTANGIBLE AS SPACES GO AWAY?

>> THAT'S A TOUGH QUESTION.

I'LL DEFER THAT ONE.

>>Yunji: FROM A CULTURAL PERSPECTIVE.

LOSE THESE SPACES, PERHAPS WE LOSE FISH PONDS.

PERHAPS WE LOSE STORIES.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> YEAH.

I'M SORRY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'M REALLY PROUD OF AND VERY INVOLVED WITH IS WE HAVE A NONPROFIT ON THE NORTH SHORE OF KAUAI, CALLED HUI MAKA AINA NAU MAKANA.

LOCATE INSIDE THE STATE PARK IN HAENA.

AND THERE IS NO URBAN DEVELOPMENT, THERE'S NO, YEAH, NOTHING BUILT ON THE OCEAN AND ON OUR SAND DUNES THERE.

AND IT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW IT SHOULD BE.

BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS, THE WIND IN HAENA, WHERE I'M FROM, MY HAWAIIAN SIDE OF THE FAMILY.

NORTH SHORE ON KAUAI, AND VERY CLOSE COMMUNITY, AND WE'RE VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT TAKE CARE OF OUR RESOURCES.

THE SAND MIGRATING AND THE BEACH MIGRATING ALSO AFFECTS OUR FISHERIES.

WHICH WE'RE REALLY PROUD OF BEING ONE OF THE, WELL, BEING FIRST COMMUNITY BASED SUBSISTENCE FISHING AREA IN THE STATE.

SO BEING, LOSING THE OCEAN AND THE EVEN THE ACCESS BECAUSE WE'RE HAVING THAT FURTHER UP TOWARDS HANALEI AS YOU START GETTING INTO THE MORE BEACHFRONT PROPERTIES, WE'RE LOSING OUR ACCESS TO GO FISHING BECAUSE A LOT OF, THERE'S BEEN A COUPLE OF HOMEOWNERS THAT HAVE ACTUALLY USED SAND BAGS AS A MEANS TO PROTECT OUR PROPERTY.

THEY'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT PROTECTING OUR BEACH ACCESS.

AND OUR BEACH, BEACHES BASICALLY OVER PROPERTY.

SAVING THE PROPERTY.

SO WE'RE LOSING OUR ACCESS.

SOME OF OUR ACCESS.

HARDER TO GET TO, TO WALK THE SHORELINE TO THROW A NET.

SO MANY, A LOT OF IMPACTS CULTURALLY FOR US ESPECIALLY, I CAN'T REALLY SPEAK FOR ANY OTHER COMMUNITY.

BUT FOR HAENA, WE CAN SEE HOW IT'S PRETTY UNTOUCHED AND MAJORITY OF THAT SHORELINE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS TOO, STATE IS DOING, IS ACTUALLY LOOKING AT, WE HAVE A REALLY GOOD WORKING RELATIONSHIP STATE OF HAWAII IN THE PARKS DIVISION.

LOOKING AT, IRONWOOD TREES, A LOT OF OUR SHORELINES ESPECIALLY ON KAUAI, IRONWOOD TREES ARE JUST DROPPING LEFT AND RIGHT.

WAINIHA, HANALEI, HAENA, THERE'S A LOT OF TREES, IRONWOODS GOING DOWN.

AND SO WE GOT TO BE CAREFUL TOO HOW WE PLANT OUR, PUT MORE GROUND COVER IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.

ILIMA, ANYTHING UNDER IRONWOODS GOT TO GO.

THEY'RE REALLY DETRIMENTAL.

ANYTHING THAT, ANY KIND OF BEACH COVER WOULD, THEY CAN'T SURVIVE IN THAT PINE CONE BEDDING.

PINE BEDDING UNDER THE IRONWOODS.

SO WE'RE GOING TO DROP, LOOKING AT DROPPING SOME OF THE IRONWOOD TREES THERE AND THEN PUTTING BACK OUR NATIVE BEACH PLANTS THAT TRADITIONALLY, AND TOOK CARE OF THE BEACH.

SO ANYWAY.

>> THAT'S REALLY GOOD POINT.

THOSE IRONWOODS ARE INVASIVE.

THEY DROP THE NEEDLES AND MAKE THE SAND ACID.

TURNS INTO ACID SOIL.

NOTHING CAN GROW THERE.

SHADE IS INTENSE.

NOTHING CAN GROW THERE.

YOU NEED GROUND COVER TO PREVENT BLOWING SAND AWAY.

WESLEY POINTING OUT TIME SCALES.

MANAGING BEACH AND DUNE FOR TODAY, AND NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, AND THEN THERE IS SORT OF SEVERAL DECADES OF SEA LEVEL RISE AND SHORELINE RETREAT.

THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT MANAGEMENT ISSUES AND THEY EACH ARE THORNY BUT THEY NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED, OKAY WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO FOR THIS IMMEDIATE GENERATION OF CHILDREN WHO NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SWIM IN THE OCEAN, AND THE WAY THEY GET THERE IS THROUGH BEACHES.

BY GOING ACROSS BEACHES.

NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SURF.

AND SURVIVE IN THE OCEAN.

BEACHES ARE GONE, THE LOCAL CHILDREN DON'T GET A CHANCE TO PICK UP THOSE SKILLS.

SO WE NEED TO MANAGE THE BEACHES NOW AND FOR TODAY'S CHILDREN.

BUT THEN, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE BEACHES ARE HERE IN THE FUTURE.

AND THAT MEANS THIS STRATEGIC RETREAT IDEA.

WITH VERY PICK UP OUR ASSETS AND MOVE AWAY FROM THE SHORELINE AND LET IT BEHAVE IN A NATURAL WAY.

>>Yunji: THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING POINT.

I'M THINKING OF JUST BEACHES ON THE WINDWARD SIDE HERE ON OAHU.

ARE JUST SURROUNDED BY IRONWOOD TREES.

IT'S NOT JUST THIS ISLAND OF COURSE, OTHER ISLANDS AS WELL.

ARE THERE MEASURES IN PLACE TO TRY TO DO THE KIND OF WORK THAT PRESLEY IS TALKING ABOUT WHERE WE PLANT THE RIGHT GROUND COVER, ARE THERE ORGANIZATIONS OR ARE THERE WAYS PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY GET INVOLVED AND DO THAT?

I THINK WHEN YOU SEE A SHOW TOPIC LIKE THIS, IT CAN FEEL REALLY DEFEATIST.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING AND OCEAN IS GOING TO COULD COME AND DO WHAT IS GOING TO DO.

ARE THERE WAYS TO STOP THIS WITH MOVES LIKE THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S SO MANY SERVICE ORIENTED PROJECTS THAT CAN BE DONE.

PRESLEY HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT GREAT EXAMPLE OF THESE.

SO BUT BEFORE YOU GET THERE, YOU ALSO NEED TO LET THE GOVERNMENT TREE PEOPLE KNOW THAT THOSE IRONWOOD TREES ARE NOT WORTH PROTECTING BY BUILDING A SEA WALL IN FRONT OF THEM.

BELIEVE ME, I'VE GONE OUT IN THE FIELD WITH ARBORISTS.

GOVERNMENT ARBORISTS.

HAD TO ARGUE WITH THEM AND SAY, THOSE INVASIVE TREES ARE NOT WORTH KILLING THE BEACH BY PUTTING A WALL IN FRONT OF THE TREES TO PRESERVE THEM.

THERE'S A LOT OF EDUCATION THAT NEEDS TO GO ON TOO.

AND ASSUMPTIONS THAT NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED AND THEN NEW MINDSETS PUT IN PLACE.

>> CAN I ADD SOMETHING REALLY QUICK?

ONE OF THE THING HAS THAT HAS BEEN INTERESTING IN THIS CONVERSATION THAT I'VE BEEN HAVING OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, AS WELL, IS HOW WE APPROACH RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

SO THERE IS LIKE THE VERY WESTERN MIND SET.

THAT OBVIOUSLY HASN'T DONE A VERY GOOD JOB OF OUR RESOURCE AND THEN THERE IS LIKE THE TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS HOLISTIC.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW WE'RE MANAGING THE COASTLINE, ESSENTIALLY SINGLE SYSTEM.

BUT IT'S BIFURCATED.

SO MAUKA OF THAT HIGH TIDE LINE, THAT IS COUNTY.

AND THEN MAKAI HIGH TIDE LINE IS STATE.

AND EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF FEDERAL THROWN IN THERE.

AND I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE ALSO BEEN REALLY TRYING, THAT ADDS A LOT OF CHALLENGES AND ALSO AGAIN, NOT THE TRADITIONAL WAY OF APPROACHING THE COASTAL ZONE.

SO AS A STATE AND COUNTY LEVEL, AND WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO IMPLEMENT THESE PROJECTS AND PROGRAMS AND TALK ABOUT MANAGED RETREAT AND STATEWIDE MANAGED RETREAT PROGRAM, THAT IS EQUITABLE AND THAT IS FEASIBLE.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE ALSO FLIPPING THE MIND SET THAT WE'VE BEEN GOING WITH FOR THE PAST SINCE THE 40'S.

VERY WESTERN, DIVVYING EVERYTHING UP.

GOING TO HOLISTIC.

WAENA.

LOOKING AT ECOSYSTEM AS A WHOLE.

>> GREAT POINT.

TODAY'S COASTAL MANAGEMENT SYSTEM MANAGES PARCEL BY PARCEL BY PARCEL.

WE TAKE AN ECOSYSTEM AND WE MANAGE IT BY THIS HOMEOWNER WANTS A PERMIT TO DO SOMETHING.

ANOTHER HOMEOWNER DOWN HERE WANTS A PERMIT TO DO SOMETHING.

GETTING THESE PERMITS CAN TAKE YEARS.

THE WHOLE THING IS DISJOINTED.

YOU HAVE DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS OF GOVERNMENT.

AND YOU ARE BREAKING UP AN ECOSYSTEM IN A TOTALLY NONNATURAL WAY.

I ALSO WANTED TO JUST SORT OF UNDERLINE SOMETHING LAUREN SAID EARLIER.

THERE IS A PROCESS WHEREBY YOU BUILD A SEA WALL HERE.

AND YOU CAUSE ACCELERATED EROSION NEXT TO IT.

THAT PERSON PUTS A SEA WALL IN FRONT OF THEIR PROPERTY.

AND THEN YOU GET ACCELERATE EROSION ON THE THIRD PROPERTY.

CALLED FLANKING.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF SEA WALL CONSTRUCTION, ON MANY, MANY COMMUNITY SHORELINES, IT'S A DOMINO EFFECT.

AFTER ABOUT A DECADE AND A HALF, YOU JUST HAVE A MILE OF SEA WALL ONE PERMIT AT A TIME.

AND THIS PROCESS OF FLANKING IS DEFINED BY AN EQUATION.

MAJOR PARAMETER IN THE EQUATION IS, WHAT IS THE LENGTH OF HARDENING THAT YOU HAVE UP DRIFT OF WHERE YOUR NEWLY UNPROTECTED AND RAPIDLY ERODING SHORELINE IS?

SO THE EROSION GETS WORSE AN WORSE AND WORSE.

AND THIS IS ONLY JUST NOW STARTING TO BE RECOGNIZED.

THIS YEAR AND LAST YEAR.

IN THE COASTAL ZONE MANAGEMENT REGIME WE HAVE IN HAWAII.

>>Yunji: IF WE CONTINUE TO SEE THIS PROBLEM FROM SEA WALLS, IS THERE A MECHANISM TO HAVE THEM REMOVED AND WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO ACTUALLY DO THAT?

>> WELL, GOSH.

AS A I THINK LAST YEAR, LEGISLATIVE SESSION, ACT 205A, WHICH IS COASTAL ZONE MANAGEMENT RULE, IT WAS UPDATED SO THAT HARDENING OF SHORELINES ALONG SANDY SHORELINES IS PROHIBITED.

AND SO LEGAL BUILDING OF SEA WALLS IN THAT WAY DOWN A COASTLINE WOULDN'T BE LEGAL, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF DESPERATION OUT THERE WHERE FOLKS WILL JUST GO OUT AND TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO HARDEN THEMSELVES.

SO IT IS A BIG PROBLEM THAT WE'RE SEEING.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT WILL STOP THAT.

>>Yunji: WHEN ONE OF THOSE IS TAKEN OUT.

WHAT HAPPENS IN THE WHOLE SYSTEM YOU WERE DESCRIBING?

>> NEIGHBORING WALLS GET FLANKED BY EROSION.

START TO COLLAPSE.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU THERE'S A LAW REVIEW ARTICLE THAT IS GOING TO BE PUBLISHED THIS FALL BY AN ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT LAW STUDENT FROM U.H.

RICHARDS LAW SCHOOL.

IN WHICH HE ARGUES THAT BEACHES ARE PUBLIC TRUST.

AND THAT EVERY TIME A HOMEOWNER GOES IN AND ASKS FOR PERMIT, TO HARDEN THE SHORELINE, OR DO ANYTHING ON THE SHORELINE, IT OPENS UP THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE AGENCY, GOVERNMENT AGENCY, TO SAY, WELL, NO TO YOUR SEA WALL AND BY THE WAY, YOU NOW ALLOW US TO LOOK AT ALL THE NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES ALONG THIS BEACH AND THEY ARE ALL DESTROYING PUBLIC TRUST.

AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE ALL OF THESE WALLS TAKEN DOWN.

THIS IS A THEORETICAL LAW ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN THE LAW REVIEW FORUM LAST YEAR BASED ON STUDENT'S ANALYSIS.

ALL OF THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED OVER DECADES AND DECADES OF HAWAIIAN PERMITTING AND COASTAL MANAGEMENT BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHTS OF PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNER THAT HAVE REIGNED SUPREME AND THERE IS NOT BEEN A PROPER VOICE FOR NATURE.

>>Yunji: LAUREN TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE SEA WALLS AND THE SAND BAGS.

THERE'S ALSO THIS THING CALLED SEA I WANT TO SAY SAND BURRITO.

VERY TECHNICAL TERM.

I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THESE.

BASICALLY CYLINDER SAND BAGS.

>> TELL US ABOUT THE EFFECTS AND THE IMPACTS OF THOSE.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT CHIP JUST DESCRIBED.

>> END UP ACTING LIKE A SEA WALL.

AND STEALING SAND AND CREATING FLANKING FOR SURROUNDING PROPERTIES.

PICTURE YOU SAW AT KAHANA.

THINK OF SAND BAGS, THINK OF BAGS FILLED WITH SAND, PUT IN FRONT OF DOOR WHEN A FLOOD OR HURRICANE IS COMING.

THESE ARE NOT SEND THEM.

HUGE.

NOT MANUFACTURED HERE.

HAVE TO BE BROUGHT IN, SHIPPED IN.

CAN YOU WALK ON THEM.

THEY'RE LIKE ROCKS.

SO WHEN THEY'RE LEFT IN THAT SYSTEM, THEY ESSENTIALLY DO BECOME LIKE A SEA WALL.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, THEIR LIFE IS I THINK FIVE YEARS.

START BREAKING DOWN AND THEN GETTING THE MATERIAL THAT IS ALL STUCK IN THAT BAG.

INTO OUR ENVIRONMENT.

WHICH IS ALSO NOT NATURAL.

SO THERE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE EMERGENCY PERMIT AND THE SAND BURRITOS.

IT'S A BAND AID AND YOU KNOW, THINK HAVING KIDS TAUGHT ME TO HAVE MORE EMPATHY.

I'M TRYING TO HAVE EMPATHY.

AND BE HUMBLED FOR THE PEOPLE WHO OWN OCEANFRONT PROPERTY AND UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS THEIR HOME AND THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT PLACE FOR THEM.

AND THERE IS THAT NEED TO WANT TO PROTECT AND SHORE UP YOUR HOME, BUT I'M GLAD THAT CHIP BROUGHT UP THE PUBLIC TRUST BECAUSE IN HAWAII, BEACHES ARE PUBLIC TRUST.

STATE THAT A CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATION TO PROTECT THEM.

EVEN WITH SAND BURRITO OR A SANDBAG, WE'RE NOT PROTECTING THE BEACH.

WE'RE CONTINUING TO PROTECT THE PRIVATE PROPERTY.

WHICH IS WHERE A LOT OF THE EMOTION IT'S COME IN.

FROM BOTH SIDES.

EMOTIONS COME IN.

>>Yunji: I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SHOW US HERE.

TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

>> THOSE ARE BURRITOS.

>>Yunji: THAT'S PRETTY EXTREME THERE.

SEE NEIGHBORS HOUSE.

NOW BLOCKING IT.

CAN YOU SHOW US THAT ONE MORE TIME?

>> THIS IS SUNSET BEACH.

>> I ACTUALLY TOOK THAT PICTURE.

THAT'S THE CANOPIES AREA.

ANOTHER PROBLEM WE'RE SEEING WITH BURRITOS, TYPICALLY NOT ENGINEERED BY CERTIFIED CONTRACTOR.

SO THEY COME APART AND SO YOU'LL SEE LIKE BROKEN BOARDS, NAILS, TARP MATERIAL ENDS UP OUT ON THE SHORELINE AND ON THE BEACH.

MAKES FOR POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION FOR THE PUBLIC AND JUST KIND OF PROMOTE, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S SELF PROMOTE, BUT DURING TOMORROW'S BOARD HEARING FOR THE DLNR, I'LL BE PRESENTING ON THE STATE OF HAWAII'S BEACHES AND THIS WILL BE A BIG PART OF THAT.

ISSUES THAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THESE STRUCTURES.

>>Yunji: THERE'S A QUESTION HERE.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

THIS PERSON VIA FACEBOOK SAYS, ISN'T THE PROBLEM WITH STOPPING SEA WALL AND SAND BAGS MANY EXEMPTIONS THAT ARE GRANTED TO HOMEOWNERS.

WHAT IS THE PROCESS RIGHT NOW AND ARE THESE JUST BEING ALLOWED TO ESSENTIALLY GO IN WHEN WE SEE A BIG STORM?

>> WELL, KIND OF THE THOUGHT BEHIND EMERGENCY PERMITTING IS YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE AN EPISODIC EVENT LIKE AN EL NINO EVENT OR SOMETHING, EPISODIC.

LANDOWNERS CAN PROTECT THE SHORELINE USING THESE STRUCTURES THAT WOULD OTHERWISE REQUIRE FULL ON PERMITTING.

REQUIRE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS.

ET CETERA.

SHORT CIRCUITED SO THE HOMEOWNER CAN TO THAT TEMPORARY PROTECTION OF THEIR LAND WHILE THAT EPISODE PASS.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW WITH CHRONIC EROSION IS THAT THEY'RE NOT COMING OUT.

IT'S A TRICKY SITUATION WITHOUT THESE SAND BAGS, A LOT OF STRUCTURES ON THE BACK SHORE WOULD FAIL.

SO YEAH, MAKING THAT CHOICE BETWEEN SHORELINE AND INLAND STRUCTURES, IT'S A TRICKY ONE.

AND IF YOU TRY TO CHOOSE BOTH, IT'S LIKE RIDING TWO HORSES AT THE SAME TIME.

WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL THAT IS.

>>Yunji: DO YOU THINK IT'S TIME FOR US TO LET SOME OF THE STRUCTURES GO ON THOUGH OF COURSE IT WOULD BE VERY PAINFUL FOR THOSE HOMEOWNERS?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S A REALITY OF IT.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE CERTAIN PROPERTY LOSS.

I DON'T SEE ANY WAY AROUND IT.

EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS, EVERY TIME WE TRY AND FIX SITUATIONS ONLY EXACERBATE THE PROBLEM.

I'M NOT FOR ANY KIND OF GROINS.

NOT FOR ANY KIND OF SEA WALL IT'S.

I'M NOT FOR BAGGING ANYTHING.

I THINK IF WE JUST.

ACCEPT WHAT NATURE IS GOING TO DO.

MAKING MORE OBSTACLES FOR THE NATURAL FLOW OF WHAT HAPPENS.

IN THE CERTAIN AREA.

WE DON'T KNOW.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE JUST LET NATURE DO ITSELF I HATE TO SAY IT, LET HER DO HER COURSE.

CAN'T CHANGE NATURE.

AGAIN, LOOK AT, I DON'T SEE WHY, HAVE A HARD TIME GRASPING WHY WE FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEBODY THAT, LIKE I SAID, THE IS FUTURE IS IN THE PAST.

KUPUNA BUILT.

ORIGINAL INHABITANTS HAWAIIAN ISLANDS.

WHERE DID THEY BUILT.

SHOULD BE LIKE A DISCLOSURE OR WHATEVER, REALTORS SELL A PIECE OF PROPERTY.

THIS IS DISCLOSURE.

LAND, YOU'RE THIS CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

IT MIGHT TAKE IT.

I DON'T SEE WHY ALL OF A SUDDEN THE STATE OF HAWAII BURDENED WITH THIS TASK OF SAVING PROPERTIES.

>> I HAVE A HARD TIME.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SOLUTION IS OTHER THAN RETREAT AND LETTING THE THING GO.

AGAIN, GOT TO GO BACK TO HAENA AND LOOK WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WE HAVE SAND DUNES THERE.

AND WHEN THE WIND COMES, THE BEACHES, LIKE OVERNIGHT, THEY'LL CHANGE.

GO 10, 20, 40 FEET.

IN THE NIGHT.

BUT YOU LET SAND, LET IT FLOW AND LET IT WILL, IT'S AMAZING HOW IT COULD REPLENISH ITSELF IF YOU JUST LET IT.

LET IT DO ITS THING.

REALLY AGAINST ANY KIND OF REVETMENTS OR ANY KIND OF SEA WALLS.

SORRY.

THAT'S JUST MY OPINION.

>>Yunji: CHIP, I WANT YOU TO EXPAND ON THAT IF YOU WOULD.

WHOLE IDEA OF LETTING NATURE TAKE ITSELF COURSE IS INCREDIBLY PAINFUL WILL BE FOR A LOT COMMUNITIES.

IS IT REALLY INEVITABILITY AND IF IS, WHAT IS OUR TIMELINE?

I KNOW WE STARTED OUT TALKING ABOUT THAT STUDY AND THAT SAID IN THE NEXT 30 YEARS, WE WOULD LOSE 40%.

BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE IF THAT'S THE CASE, WE BETTER START MOVING NOW.

>> WE BETTER START MOVING 20 YEARS AGO.

SO FIRST OF ALL, I THINK SHELLEY, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU RECALL, BUT DID THE LEGISLATURE LAST YEAR'S SESSION FINALLY PASS, LAUREN, WHY DON'T YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THEY DID?

>> I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SAY THE SEA LEVEL RISER DISCLOSURE BILL.

YEAH.

THEY DID.

SO ACTUALLY, WHAT PRESLEY WAS SAYING.

NOW WHEN YOU, I GUESS IT HAS TO TAKE EFFECT.

BUT WHEN YOU BUY A PROPERTY, IN THE SEA LEVEL RISE EXPOSURE ZONE, IT'S DICLOSED THAT YOU'RE IN THE SEA LEVEL RISE DISCLOSURE ZONE.

SURFRIDER PUSHING FOR THAT BILL.

PART OF THAT HELP CLOSE THE LOOPHOLE OF THESE EMERGENCY PERMITS.

IF YOU BUY A HOME IN THAT, YOU ARE TAKING ON AS THE NEW HOMEOWNER YOU'RE ACKNOWLEDGING I KNOW WHERE I'M BUYING AND I CAN'T TURN AROUND TO THE STATE AND COUNTIES AND FIVE YEARS AND ASK FOR EMERGENCY PERMIT TO SHORE UP MY HOME OR PROPERTY.

BECAUSE I ALREADY TOOK ON THAT RISK.

AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE RISKS ARE WHEN YOU'RE PURCHASING IN SUCH A HIGHLY DYNAMIC AREA.

>> IN THIS CASE, NOT JUST EROSION.

IT'S ALSO FLOODING BY HIGH WAVES.

IT'S VARIOUS TYPES OF HAZARDS INCLUDING EROSION.

RELATED TO SEA LEVEL RISE.

ALL BEEN MAPPED OUT AROUND THE STATE.

AND NOW, IT'S EMBEDDED IN REAL ESTATE TRANSACTION.

HOMEOWNER MUST BE MADE AWARE THEY'RE BUYING PROPERTY IN THIS HAZARD ZONE.

IT'S A KUDOS TO THE STATE OF HAWAII AND THE LEGISLATURE THAT MADE WONDERFUL MOVES.

>> I THINK THIS IS A NATIONAL LEADERSHIP MOVE.

PROBABLY INTERNATIONAL IN SCOPE.

I DON'T KNOW OF ANYPLACE ELSE THAT HAS DONE THIS.

YUNJI, TO YOUR QUESTION OF LETTING NATURE TAKE ITS COURSE, I UNDERSTAND THE DUTCH HAVE A SAYING, GO TO WAR WITH WATER, AND YOU WILL LOSE.

AND ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AROUND OUR SHORELINE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO WAR WITH WATER.

TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY.

THEY MIGHT HAVE A NICE GLEAMING SEA WALL FOR A FEW MONTHS OR YEAR OR TWO, EVENTUALLY, IT ENDS UP DESTROYING BEACH, WRECKING PUBLIC TRUST, WRECKING THE TOURISM BASED ECONOMY.

JUST AMOUNT OF LOSS IS ENORMOUS AND CUTS ACROSS ALL SECTORS OF HUMAN INTEREST ALL FOR A SINGLE PARCEL.

I'M COMING ACROSS AS THE TOUGH GUY ON THESE PARCEL.

I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT.

SEA LEVEL RISE IS A PERMANENT ASPECT OF COASTAL COMMUNITIES FOR CENTURIES.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE NEW INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL CLIMATE CHANGE REPORT CAME OUT PAST AUGUST 11.

IT SAID WE'RE LOOKING AT OVER A THOUSAND YEARS OF SEA LEVEL RISE.

AS THE OCEANS WARM UP TO THE SAME TEMPERATURE THAT THE AIR IS, THEY WILL THERMALLY EXPAND.

THAT'S A LONG SLOW PROCESS.

SO SEA LEVEL IS NOT GOING TO SUDDENLY TURN AROUND START GOING DOWN.

IT IS NOT IN THE SCIENTIFIC REALITY.

SO WE NEED TO COMPLETELY RENOVATE HOW WE MANAGE OUR SHORELINES.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE IN FAVOR OF PROTECTING AND RECOVERING NATURAL ECOSYSTEMS.

>>Yunji: WE HAVE ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.

>> I WANT TO MAKE SURE I GET TO EACH OF YOU WITH THE QUESTION.

I WANT TO START WITH PRESLEY.

MIKE ASKED, ARE THERE LESSONS, ANY LESSONS THAT PEOPLE ON OTHER ISLANDS CAN LEARN FROM WHAT IS BEING DONE ON KAUAI?

>> I THINK THIS WHOLE PROCESS, ALL ABOUT COMMUNITIES.

NO MATTER WHAT COMMUNITY YOU ARE.

I THINK IT REALLY COMES BACK DOWN TO HAVING A GOOD STRONG COMMUNITY.

AND/OR GROUP OF PEOPLE.

DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE BORN AND FAMILY CAME FROM THAT TAKE PLACE, OR YOU HAVE GENEALOGICAL TIES TO THE PLACE.

THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING YOU FROM GOING AND TAKING CARE OF A PLACE AND DOING WHATEVER YOU CAN PLANT SOME ILIMA DOWN AT THE OCEAN.

START DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND GET GROUP OF LIKE SURFRIDER, DO IS WONDERFUL WORK.

WHAT THEY DO.

SO I THINK THAT'S ONLY THING I CAN THINK OF THAT WE CAN LEARN.

MALAMA YOUR PLACE.

>>Yunji: WHAT CAN THE AVERAGE PERSON DO TO GET INVOLVED AND HELP THIS ISSUE?

BECAUSE IT DOES SEEM JUST SO OVERWHELMING.

>> >> GOING BACK AND YOU KNOW, AUNTY TOMY KNOW YOUR BACKYARD.

KNOW YOUR BEACH.

STARTS WITH JUST OBSERVING IT.

AND KNOWING IT AND UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN SPEAK TO IT.

RIGHT?

AND CAN YOU SPEAK TO THOSE CHANGES.

I THINK BIG PART OF WHAT EVERY DAY CITIZENS CAN DO AS WELL IS REALLY BE INVOLVED IN THE POLICY AND THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

AND GET ON MAILING LIST.

SURFRIDER BECAUSE COASTAL PROTECTION IS ONE OF OUR FIVE KEY THING WE DO.

TRYING TO INTEGRATE THE PUBLIC MORE INTO THESE PROCESSES.

AND BEING ABLE TO, YOU CAN TESTIFY, REALLY EASILY.

THROUGH THE STATE OF HAWAII ONLINE SYSTEM.

AND HAVING YOUR VOICE HEARD AND SENDING SHORT EMAIL, SENDING I SUPPORT GETTING ON ZOOM AND PROVIDING TESTIMONY IS REALLY POWERFUL.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY REALLY ACCESSIBLE, ONE OF THE SILVER LININGS OF COVID MADE THAT MORE ACCESSIBLE.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE MORE INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

AND TO BE PUSHING TO MOVE BACK FROM THE SHORELINE AND TO UNDERSTAND THIS REALLY COMPLEX PROCESS.

BUT TO JUST STAND UP FOR OUR BEACHES ON OUR COASTLINES AND DEMAND THAT THE STATE START SERIOUSLY LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN EQUITABLY MOVE AWAY.

>>Yunji: WE HAVE JUST ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF.

I WANT TO MAKE SURE I GET TO SHELLEY AND AND CHIP.

IF YOU COULD EXPAND ABOUT THAT PEOPLE GETTING INVOLVE AND WHAT THEY SHOULD TAKE AWAY FROM THIS.

>> SUCH A GREAT JOB.

YEAH, SPEAK FOR YOUR BEACHES.

FIGHT FOR YOUR BEACHES.

BEACHES ARE SOMETHING THAT WE ALL ENJOY.

FROM LIKE THE BABY THAT IS ENJOYING LIKE LEARNING, BEAUTY OF THE OCEAN, FROM THE FOLKS WALKING THEIR DOGS ALONG THE SHORELINE, FROM THE FISHERMEN CATCHING FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILIES BEACH PARTIES.

WE NEED BEACHES AND SO LIKE SPEAK YOUR BEACH.

FIGHT FOR YOUR BEACH.

SEE ANYTHING GOING ON ON THE SHORELINE, THAT YOU THINK MIGHT NOT BE PERMITTED, CHECK.

ALWAYS CALL YOUR DLNR ENFORCEMENT AND JUST CHECK.

GOOD THING.

>>Yunji: CHIP, I WANT TO GIVE YOU LAST WORD TONIGHT.

>> SO MANY WONDERFUL THINGS HAVE BEEN SAID.

I WOULD JUST ADD THAT WE DON'T NEED TO INVENT ANYTHING NEW.

YOU'VE SEEN THE BREADTH OF THIS CONVERSATION.

YOU'VE SEEN THE DEPTH OF KNOWLEDGE.

AMONG ALL THE OF THESE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS HERE.

ON THE SCREEN.

THE COMMUNITY NEEDS TO BE LED, I BELIEVE, BY GOVERNMENT.

OPENING UP THE OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL OF US TO GET TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH THESE SOLUTIONS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY.

BUT THE RESOURCES EXIST FOR UNDERSTANDING THIS PROBLEM AND I CAN ALSO TELL YOU THERE ARE RESOURCES TO ASSIST HOMEOWNERS FROM GETTING AWAY FROM THEIR DOOMED LOCATIONS AND IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY REQUIRE MONEY.

THERE ARE OTHER RESOURCES OUT THERE.

>>Yunji: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

TRULY ENJOY THIS CONVERSATION.

MAHALO TO YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT AND WE THANK OUR GUESTS, COASTAL GEOLOGIST SHELLIE HABEL, EARTH SCIENCES PROFESSOR CHIP FLETCHER, LAUREN BLICKLEY FROM THE SURFRIDER FOUNDATION, AND MALAMA KUAAINA BOARD MEMBER PRESLEY WANN.

NEXT WEEK ON INSIGHTS, FOR YEARS A HAWAII ISLAND MAN HAS BEEN FIGHTING TO OBTAIN A LICENSE TO CARRY A GUN IN PUBLIC.

WE’LL DISCUSS HOW A SIMILAR GUN RIGHTS CASE BEFORE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT COULD PUT OUR GUN LAWS TO THE TEST.

PLEASE JOIN US THEN.

I’M YUNJI DE NIES FOR INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI`I, ALOHA!