♪.

TED: COMING UP IN THE NEXT HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS ON ARIZONA PBS.

ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," IT'S THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE STATE'S HANDLING OF THE LATEST COVID SURGE AMONG OTHER BIG STORIES OF THE WEEK.

THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON".

ANNOUNCER: THIS HOUR OF LOCAL NEWS IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE FRIENDS OF PBS.

MEMBERS OF YOUR PBS STATION.

THANK YOU.

TED: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON."

I'M TED SIMONS.

IT'S FRIDAY AND THAT MEANS IT'S TIME FOR THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE, AND TONIGHT WE RETURN OUR FULL SHOW FORMAT WITH OUR THREE GUESTS IN STUDIO JOINING US TONIGHT IS MARY JO PITZL OF "THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC" AND JIM SMALL OF THE "ARIZONA MIRROR" AND DILLON ROSENBLATT FROM KJZZ RADIO.

GREAT TO YOU HAVE IN PERSON.

THE FULL SHOW, ALMOST LIKE THE REAL THING.

MARY JO, START WITH YOU, COVID HOSPITAL CONCERNS.

WE ARE HEARING THIS THINGS ARE NEARING THE BREAKING POINT.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

>> WELL, IF YOU LISTEN TO THE CEO OF BANNER HEALTH, THE STATE'S LARGEST HOSPITAL NETWORK, THEY ARE RAPIDLY HITTING CAPACITY.

THERE'S JUST NOT GOING TO BE ROOM WITH THE RATE AT WHICH CASES, BOTH DELTA AND OMICRON ARE MULTIPLYING.

THEY ARE BEGGING PEOPLE TO GET A VACCINE, WEAR MASKS, TAKE THE PROTOCOLS, ESPECIALLY INTO THE HOLIDAY SEASON SO THEY CAN KEEP DOWN THE STRAIN ON HOSPITALS.

TED: DILLON, 95% OF ICU UNITS ARE OCCUPIED.

47% ARE COVID PATIENTS.

THE HOSPITALS ARE SAYING SOMETHING'S GOT TO BE DONE.

WHAT ARE THEY SAYING?

>> THEY'VE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR MORE THAN A YEAR.

WHEN WE SAW THE SAME SURGE IN THE END OF 2020 EARLY 2021.

THEY PLEADED WITH THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WE NEED SUPPORT, AND KJZZ JUST HAD ON SOMEONE FROM THE YUMA MEDICAL CENTER, AND THEY WERE SAYING YOU CAN GIVE US MONEY BUT WE NEED STAFFING, NURSES AREN'T THERE TO TAKE CARE OF THE PATIENTS.

THERE MIGHT BE BED CAPACITY, BUT IF THERE'S NOBODY TO HELP MAN THE BEDS, IT'S POINTLESS.

TED: AND JIM, THE HOSPITALS ARE LITERALLY WARNING PRETTY SOON MID-JANUARY IT'S GOING TO PEAK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE TOUGH DECISIONS.

>> THIS WILL BE HEALTH CARE RATIONING, RIGHT?

THIS IS GOING TO BE, HOSPITALS ARE FACED WITH DECIDING WHO ARE THEY GOING TO CARE FOR?

WHO IS SICK ENOUGH?

WHO IS NOT?

WE'VE SEEN STORIES COMING OUT OF FOLKS WHO NEED TO GET ICU CARE TURNED AWAY, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN RECENTLY SENT OUT OF STATE TO OTHER -- MOVED FROM, IF THEY'RE IN RURAL ARIZONA TO THE VALLEY OR IF IN THE VALLEY, TO OTHER STATES.

THAT'S ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE AND STEMS BACK TO WHAT THE HOSPITAL CEOs ARE SAYING, WE'RE 55% FULLY VACCINATED IN THE STATE.

THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, AND AFTER ALMOST TWO YEARS OF DEAL WITH THE PANDEMIC, THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS ABOUT TO BREAK.

TED: WE WILL BE UNABLE TO MEET THE CARE NEEDS OF ALL ARIZONANS IF THE TRENDS CONTINUE.

WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE ARE WE GETTING FROM THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT?

FROM THE GOVERNOR?

>> THE GOVERNOR IS, WHAT WAS IT YESTERDAY, HE WAS CRITICAL OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR SOMETHING OR ANOTHER, NOT PROVIDING ENOUGH MONEY TO THE STATE, BUT THE GOVERNOR'S BEEN VERY QUIET MOST OF THIS YEAR ABOUT COVID.

IN FACT, HE ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER YESTERDAY THAT BANS VACCINE MANDATES FOR EMPLOYERS, I BELIEVE.

>> CITIES AND COUNTIES.

TED: I THINK IT WAS THE EXPANSION OF A PREVIOUS, WHAT HE HAD DONE BEFORE OR A NEW MANDATE?

>> IT'S HEAD SPINNING.

ALL THE ONES THE MANDATES THAT ARE OUT THERE, AND THE COMPLAINTS THE LAWMAKERS FILE WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND NOW WE'VE GOT THE GOVERNOR COMING IN, BUT THESE ACTIONS AREN'T HELPING, MAYBE THEY'RE PROMOTING LIBERTY, BUT THEY'RE NOT HELPING TO STEM THE SPREAD OF THIS VIRUS, AND YOU'RE GOING TO FEEL, YOU HAVE AN ELECTIVE SURGERY, GOOD LUCK, HOPE YOU DON'T GET SICK.

TED: DILLON, THE GOVERNOR WAS ASKED DOWN IN YUMA, AT THE BORDER, SOMEWHERE DOWN THERE, TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

HE BASICALLY DIDN'T SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND, AND HE SAID THAT'S THE ANSWER, THAT'S THE SOLUTION.

ARE WE GOING TO GET MORE FROM THE GOVERNOR ON THIS, OR IS HE GOING TO STAY BACK AND LET THIS THING PLAY OUT?

>> I CAN'T IMAGINE WE'RE GOING TO GET ANYTHING MORE.

HE'S BEEN PRETTY QUIET ON COVID.

ANY TOPIC RELATING TO THE PANDEMIC AT THIS POINT.

THE ONLY THING I'VE SEEN FROM HIM PUBLICLY NOT AT PRESS BRIEFINGS WHERE THE PRESS IS THERE TO HAMMER HIM AND ASK QUESTIONS, HE'S SHARED PUBLICLY COMPLIMENTS OF WHEN HE SENT MONEY TO HOSPITALS.

MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT THIS WEEK, AND THE ONLY THING PRESENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA PAGES RELATED TO THE PANDEMIC.

I REMEMBER WHEN THE VACCINE WAS JUST ABOUT TO ARRIVE IN ARIZONA, HE SAID THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO END THE PANDEMIC.

LOOK WHERE WE ARE, LAGGING BEHIND THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WITH OUR VACCINATION RATE.

HE'S ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO GET THE VACCINE BUT NOT DOING ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT.

HE RECEIVED THE BOOSTER POINT AT SOME POINT RECENTLY.

NOT A SINGLE PERSON MADE THAT PUBLIC AT ALL.

TED: I THOUGHT, JIM, THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, THE GOVERNOR, EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT.

GET VACCINATED, DO IT NOW, ET CETERA.

ARE WE GETTING THE MESSAGE?

ARE YOU GETTING THE MESSAGE?

>> THEY SEND OUT TWEETS THAT A COUPLE PEOPLE LIKE AND RETWEET AND PUT OUT ON THE FACEBOOK PAGE THAT PEOPLE SHARE AND "LIKE" AND THAT'S ABOUT IT.

THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MUCH.

I THINK THE FREEWAY SIGNS GET MORE EYEBALLS THAN THE EFFORTS FROM THE STATE HEALTH AGENCY AND CERTAINLY FROM THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, AS DILLON SAID, HASN'T DONE ANYTHING.

THEY'VE BEEN COMPLETELY QUIET.

WE'RE COMING UP ON A YEAR AGO FROM WHEN THE GOVERNOR SAID WE WILL VACCINATE OUR WAY OUT OF THIS.

OKAY WHEN?

HOW IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN?

THE STATE DID A GOOD JOB GETTING THE LOW HANGING FRUIT AND GETTING VACCINES OUT THERE, AND ESPECIALLY THE OLDER POPULATION IN THE STATE VACCINATED QUICKLY, WHICH WAS VERY GOOD, BUT THEN ONCE THAT LOW HANGING FRUIT WAS DONE, THE STATE WALKED AWAY AND SAID IT'S THE COUNTY'S JOB TO DO IT AND TURN IT OVER TO THEM, THAT'S BEEN THE END OF IT.

WHEN THEY STOPPED TALKING ABOUT IT FULL-COURT PRESS.

TED: YOU MENTIONED STATE AND COUNTY AND PARTS OF THE STATE HAVE ASKED FEMA FOR FEDERAL HELP, 14 HOSPITALS, KINGMAN AND BULLHEAD CITY AMONG THOSE.

YOU MENTIONED YUMA, SIERRA VISTA AS WELL.

BISBEE, THE SMALLER TOWNS ARE ASKING FOR FEDERAL HELP.

>> YEAH, THEY NEED HELP, WITH STAFFING, FUNDING, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE THE EXTRA CORPOREAL MACHINES, THE ECMO MACHINES.

ABOUT A YEAR AGO, JUST AS THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION WAS ABOUT READY TO BEGIN, ONE OF THE HOT TOPICS IS PASS LIABILITY PROTECTION FOR EMPLOYERS SO PEOPLE CAN'T SUE THEIR EMPLOYERS IF THEY GET COVID ON THE JOB.

WHAT A SEA CHANGE, WE'RE AT THE POINT OF PUNISHING OR WANTING TO PUNISH EMPLOYERS.

WE HAVEN'T DONE THE PRIVATE EMPLOYERS IN ARIZONA BUT PUNISHING THEM IF THEY REQUIRE A VACCINE MANDATE, SO THINGS HAVE DONE A 180 TURN, AND A LOT OF IT STARTED, IF YOU REMEMBER BACK TOWARDS THE END OF LAST SCHOOL YEAR, THERE WAS FOUR WEEKS LEFT IN THE SCHOOL YEAR, AND THE GOVERNOR LIFTED THE MASK REQUIREMENT FOR SCHOOLS, WHICH SENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS INTO A TIZZY.

TED: DILLON, WE MENTIONED WHAT IS THE STATE DOING, DR. RICHARD CARMONA STAYING ON AS THE ARZAR CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER.

WE'VE HAD DR. CARMONA ON THE SHOW WHEN HE GOT THE POSITION AND SAID HIS JOB WAS TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT THERE.

GET PEOPLE VACCINATED, TESTED.

GET THE MESSAGE OUT.

WHAT IS HE DOING, AND WHY IS HE STAYING ON THE JOB?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

HE CAME OUT FIRST AND FOREMOST TO SAY I WILL BE THE HEALTH VOICE THAT'S GOING TO LET THE GOVERNOR KNOW OUR MESSAGING NEEDS TO GET ACROSS TO ALL ARIZONANS.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE MESSAGING IS.

I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE THING CHANGE SINCE HE'S COME ON.

HE'S GETTING PAID I THINK $400 AN HOUR AND DONE THE EQUIVALENT OF TWO FULL WEEKS OF WORK, WHICH IS MORE THAN $30,000 HE'S BEING PAID, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE DIFFERENCE.

I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY HAS.

TED: $35,000 FOR 88 HOURS OF WORK AND IT'S $398 PER HOUR, DILLON.

>> I WAS OFF.

I'M NOT GREAT AT MATH.

TED: REALLY, THAT'S REAL MONEY AND A REAL POSITION AND A VERY HIGH-PROFILE PERSON.

WHERE IS HE?

>> I THINK REALISTICALLY, I THINK HE'S THERE TO PROVIDE A VENEER OF RESPECTABILITY AND THE IDEA THAT THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THE DUCEY ADMINISTRATION IS DOING SOMETHING AND TAKING THE STEPS, AND I REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN WHAT HIS JOB IS BEYOND DOING INTERVIEWS WITH YOU, WITH US, WITH THE REPUBLIC, AND OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS, AND WE ALL DID THE INTERVIEWS, AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE GONE BACK TO THEM SINCE, AND I THINK IT IS UNCLEAR WHAT HE'S DOING AND WHAT HIS ROLE THERE IS OTHER THAN TRYING TO PROVIDE A VENEER OF RESPECTABILITY FOR THE DUCEY ADMINISTRATION TO POINT TO AND SAY WE'RE DOING SOMETHING, WE HIRED RICHARD CARMONA, FORMER SURGEON GENERAL.

HE'S RESPECTED.

>> IS HE CONSTRAINED IN WHAT HE CAN SAY OR DO IN THE ROLE?

THE GOVERNOR HIRED HIM, AND THE GOVERNOR MADE IT CLEAR HE THINKS WE'VE GONE ABOUT AS FAR AS WE CAN IN THE STATE IN TERMS OF MESSAGING AND NOT GOING TO FORCE ANYTHING ON PEOPLE IN TERMS OF COVID MITIGATION, SO WHATEVER DR. CARMONA MIGHT FEEL IN HIS HEART OF HEARTS OR BEHIND HIS MASK, I HAVE NO IDEA.

TED: WE GOT AN OMICRON COMING AROUND THE BEND, TOO.

INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT'S HANDLE.

>>> LET'S SHIFT GEARS HERE, DILLON, START WITH THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.

THEY FINALLY GOT, HOW MANY TEST MAPS DO YOU GO?

IT'S AMAZING, THEY NARROWED IT DOWN TO WHERE IT'S NOT REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT, BUT WHERE ARE WE IN THE PROCESS?

>> LET'S START THERE.

THIS WEEK, WE GOT CHAIRWOMAN ERIKA NEWBERG, I'M DONE HEARING NEW MAP PROPOSALS FROM REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, WE CAN'T KEEP SPLITTING DOWN THE PARTISAN LINES, WE NEED TO START COMING TOGETHER.

I REMEMBER WHEN I INTERVIEWED HER AFTER SHE GOT APPOINTED TO THE POSITION, SHE SAID SHE'S GOING TO DO TWO THINGS AS CHAIR.

SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE A 3-2 TIE-BREAKING VOTE, SHE'S GOING TO AVOID THAT IF SHE CAN, AND SAW A LITTLE BIT OF THAT WHEN SHE TOLD THE FOUR PARTISAN COMMISSIONERS, YOU NEED TO WORK TOGETHER TO COME UP WITH A MAP THAT'S GOOD FOR ALL OF US.

WE CAN'T KEEP HAVING THE 3-2 VOTES.

THAT WAS A GOOD STEP OF FINAL COUPLE OF DAYS WE'RE GOING TO SEE BEFORE THEY END UP PUTTING ON THE MAP BEFORE WE GET A REAL RESPONSE.

>> WHAT ARE WE SEEING SO FAR, MARY JO, DRAMATIC CHANGES, LEGISLATURE, CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS?

>> SEEMS LIKE EVERY TIME THEY MEET, LEGISLATIVELY LAST I LOOKED WAS 15 OF THE 30 LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS ARE PRETTY STRONG REPUBLICAN.

12 ARE FAIRLY STRONG DEMOCRATIC.

THE REMAINING DO THE MATH FIVE ARE TOSS-UPS, MAYBE COULD GO EITHER WAY.

I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HOPED THERE COULD BE -- WOULD BE MORE DISTRICTS THAT ARE COMPETITIVE, AND LIKEWISE CONGRESSIONALLY AND SOMEBODY CORRECT ME, IT'S A FLIP OF WHAT WE HAVE, FIVE DEMOCRAT, FOUR REPUBLICAN, THESE MAPS ARE FOR FIVE DEMOCRATS AND FOUR REPUBLICANS.

>> WE'RE TAPING THIS ON FRIDAY, AND DURING THE MEETING GOING ON ALL DAY TODAY, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE RUBBER MET THE ROAD AND STARTED DOING CONSEQUENTIAL VOTES, THE DEMOCRATS CAME OUT ON TOP ON A COUPLE OF VOTES TODAY, WHICH CERTAINLY WAS NOT THE CASE BEFORE AND YESTERDAY THE DEMOCRATS LEFT THE MEETING SAYING WE'RE LOOKING AT A MAP WHERE WE COULD BE DOWN 7-2.

IN THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, IN A STATE WHERE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS MAKE UP A THIRD OF THE ELECTORATE.

BUT TODAY, THE DEMOCRATS SEEM TO HAVE MADE MORE PERSUASIVE ARGUMENTS, SHOWN UP WITH PROPOSALS THAT WON THE FAVOR OF THE CHAIRWOMAN.

CERTAINLY NOT FINAL PROPOSALS, BUT THEY ARE THE NEW STARTING POINTS, AS THEY REFINE DOWN TO WHAT IS THE MAP WE'RE GOING TO USE AS THE NEW POINT TO GO FORWARD AND START MASSAGING THE LINES AND MAKE THE SMALL GRANULAR DETAILED CHANGES.

TED: DILLON, WAS THAT THE CHAIRWOMAN COMPENSATING FOR CRITICISM SHE WAS SIDING WITH THE REPUBLICANS TOO MUCH?

>> YEAH, AND I THINK IT'S GOOD, THE BEGINNING OF THIS WEEK IS WHEN THEY OPEN UP THEIR MEETING AND ONE OF THE DEMOCRATIC COMMISSIONERS BROUGHT UP ALL THE PUBLIC COMMENT HAS BEEN BORDERLINE HARASSMENT OF CHAIRWOMAN NEWBERG, THEY TRIED TO COMPARE HER TO REPUBLICANS AND COMPARE HER TO COLLEEN WHO SIDED WITH THE DEMOCRATS 3-2 VERY OFTEN.

I DON'T THINK THE TWO ARE THE SAME FROM LAST CYCLE TO THIS CYCLE, BUT RECEIVING SOME OF THE CRITICISM KIND OF SETS THE GUIDELINES OF HOW THINGS SHOULD BE GOING AND HOW SHE SHOULD BE DOING HER JOB AS THE CHAIR TO STRAY EVERYBODY DOWN THE SAME PATH.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER BIG DIFFERENCES IN THE LAST 48 HOURS THAN WE'D SEEN IN THE LAST 48 MEETINGS, REALLY, WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHAIRWOMAN NEWBERG MADE A POINT ON IS TRYING TO FIND THE MIDDLE GROUND AND BE CONCILIATORY AND AVOID THE PARTISAN VOTES WHERE AT ALL POSSIBLE.

SHE HAS ALONG THE WAY, IF YOU'VE WATCHED THE MEET THS, YOU SEE HER SAY I DON'T LIKE THIS, BUT OPEN UP A DOOR FOR BOTH SIDES TO WALK THROUGH, AND I THINK UP UNTIL RECENTLY, THE REPUBLICANS WERE WILLING TO WALK THROUGH THE DOORS, AND THE DEMOCRATS WEREN'T AS MUCH.

THEY KEPT GOING BACK AND TRYING TO RELITIGATE ISSUES THE CHAIRMANWOMAN SAID I'M NOT GOING TO BUDGE ON THIS, NOT INTERESTED, I THINK WE RESOLVED IT AND WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON, AND ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES IS PROPOSALS THE DEMOCRATS STARTED PUTTING OUT LEFT THE THINGS ON THE TABLE AND SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO RELITIGATE THIS PARTICULAR LINE OR THIS PARTICULAR CHOICE TO PUT YAVAPAI COUNTY IN THIS DISTRICT INSTEAD OF THE OTHER ONE AND SAID LET'S MOVE FORWARD WITH OUR -- WITH PLANS THAT THE CHAIRWOMAN COULD GET BEHIND, AND SHE SEEMED TO RESPOND FAVORABLY.

TED: AS INDEPENDENT CHAIRWOMAN WOULD EXPECT.

GOT TO GET THIS DONE IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS, RIGHT?

.

>> I THINK WEDNESDAY IS THE DEADLINE TO FINALIZE THE MAPS FOR BOTH CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS.

AND SPEAKING OF RELITIGATING THINGS, THIS PROCESS IS FREE OF LITIGATION.

IF YOU REMEMBER TEN YEARS AGO.

TED: TEN YEARS AGO?

GOODNESS GRACIOUS, LITIGATION HAPPENED ALMOST UNTIL THE NEXT CENSUS.

>> THEY WRAPPED IT UP PRETTY QUICKLY, BUT REMOVED THE THEN CHAIRMAN, AND SHE WAS REINSTATED BY THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

VERY HIGH-STAKES DRAMA AND YET TO COME AFTER WE SEE WHAT THE FINAL MAPS ARE, WILL THERE BE LITIGATION THAT WILL RUN THROUGH THE COURTS, BUT THERE WAS ONE HALLMARK FROM THE LAST EXERCISE TEN YEARS AGO WHERE THE SUPREME COURT MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE ESTABLISHMENT OF OUR INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION IN ARIZONA IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

YOU CANNOT QUESTION IT.

IT'S FOUNDATION.

THEY ARE SPEAKING FOR THE PEOPLE AND DRAWING THE MAPS.

LAWMAKERS PREFER THEY HAVE THE PENCILS IN THEIR HANDS, BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

TED: REAL QUICKLY, THERE WAS A PROTEST AT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, STOP THE STEAL.

YOU WERE THERE FOR THIS, CORRECT?

>> I STOPPED BY.

TED: YOU STOPPED BY.

WHAT DID YOU SEE AND HEAR?

>> LOT OF PEOPLE TRYING TO PRESSURE AND GET MESSAGE OUT TO ATTORNEY GENERAL MARK BRNOVICH TO HURRY UP, DARN IT.

YOU HAVE THE REPORT THAT THE CYBER NINJAS AND THE SENATE DELIVERED IN LATE SEPTEMBER.

WE WANT INDICTMENTS.

YOU'VE GOT THE EVIDENCE.

JUST DO YOUR JOB.

A FEW PEOPLE WERE ATTENUATED AND HAD NOT JUMPED TO CONCLUSIONS BUT THIS CLOUD OF ABOUT 200 IS CONVINCED THERE WAS WRONGDOING AND THEY WANT SCALPS.

TED: 200?

>> YEAH.

TED: SENATE CANDIDATE JIM LEHMAN AND KARI LAKE, STATE SENATOR TOWNSEND, DILLON, I'LL START WITH YOU, WE MUST INDICT, WE MUST INDICT WHAT?

>> CALLING FOR INDICTMENTS SINCE THE ELECTION.

THEY WANT THE SECRETARY OF STATE KATIE HOBBS' HEAD ON A SPIKE ESSENTIALLY.

THEY THINK SHE SHOULD BE JAILED, FORMER COUNTY RECORDER, ADRIAN FONTES SHOULD BE IN JAIL BECAUSE THEY RAN THE ELECTIONS.

NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD, THEY KEEP CLAIMING THERE EVIDENCE IS OUT THERE.

WE ASKED THEM WHAT EVIDENCE AND THEY SHOW NOTHING.

TED: WASN'T THERE AN EVENT IN SOUTHERN ARIZONA THIS WEEK AS WELL WHERE FOLKS GOT TOGETHER AND -- THESE THEORIES HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED BUT JUST GO ON, DON'T THEY?

>> YEAH, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF, A LOT OF SECURITY IN BELIEVING THAT YOUR POSITION IS RIGHT, AND THAT YOU'RE BELIEVING THE LIE AND BELIEVING THE FAIRYTALE THAT THE ELECTION CAME OUT SOMEHOW DIFFERENTLY THAN IT ACTUALLY DID, AND BELIEVING THAT THIS GRANT CONSPIRACY IS THE REASON THAT YOUR FAVORITE CANDIDATE LOST OR FAVORITE MULTIPLE CANDIDATES LOST, AND NOT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT, WELL, THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

THE VOTERS MADE A CHOICE AND THE VOTERS DECIDE THEY LIKE JOE BIDEN, NOT AS MUCH OR LIKE JOE BIDEN A LITTLE MORE THAN DONALD TRUMP.

THAT'S AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT IT IS.

TED: DO THEY FEEL THAT MOST REPUBLICANS FEEL THIS WAY, OR THIS A LOUD MINORITY?

>> DEFINITELY A VERY VOCAL MINORITY.

IF YOU LOOK AT PUBLIC POLLING, THE VOCAL MINORITY AND THE COMMENTS FROM REPUBLICAN LEADERS HAS DONE ITS JOB IN TERMS OF SOWING DOUBT AND DISCOWARD, POLLS SHOW 40-70% OF VOTERS DON'T THINK THE ELECTIONS WERE FAIR AND AMOUNT OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD ENOUGH TO FAVOR THE ELECTION.

TED: DURING THE RALLY, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT BRNOVICH MUST DO SOMETHING BECAUSE OF WHAT WAS FOUND DURING THE STATE SENATE'S REVIEW OF THE MARICOPA COUNTY BALLOT.

WHAT WAS THE SO-CALLED FOUND?

>> THE DISCREPANCY, THEY ARE VERY EASILY EXPLAINED THINGS FOR PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE URGENT ISSUES THAT SENATE PRESIDENT FANN SENATE TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, MORE WERE IN THE REALM OF PROCESS IMPROVEMENTS AS OPPOSED TO WRONGDOING.

I GUESS CAN YOU ALWAYS MAKE THINGS BETTER.

TED: SO WHEN SOMEONE SAYS WE MUST INDICT, THE QUESTION STANDS.

>> KELLY TOWNSEND SEES THINGS IN THE RESULTS OF FROM THE AUDIT THAT OTHERS HAVE NOT SEEN.

>> I THINK WHAT THE AUDIT FOUND IS THEY HIRED PEOPLE TO EVALUATE AN ELECTION, AND REACHED CONCLUSIONS THAT PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE REACHED BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING AT.

SAW THAT IN THE AUDIT SCOPE AS A WHOLE AND SAW IT IN PARTICULAR, THE PRESENTATIONS FROM AN M.I.T.-TRAINED MATHEMATICIAN, STATISTICIAN HIRED TO LOOK AT SIGNATURES BUT DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS LOOKING FOR UNDERSTAND AND THE LAWS AND RULES AROUND THE SIGNATURES.

SO REACHED VERY ERRANT CONCLUSIONS, AND IT'S THOSE CONCLUSIONS AND THE FACT THAT THIS IS COMPLICATED.

VOTING ISN'T AS SIMPLE AS PUTTING YOUR BALLOT IN THERE AND VOTING FOR ONE THING AND COUNTING IT.

THERE'S A LOT GOING IN TO IT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 7 MILLION OR 4 MILLION VOTES, THERE IS A LOT OF PROCESS AND LAW THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN.

WHEN YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, IT'S EASY TO TAKE ONE THING OUT OF CONTEXT AND MISINTERPRET WHAT THAT MEANS AND MAKE UP AN ENTIRE BACK STORY HOW YOU GOT TO -- WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS WHEN IN REALITY THERE'S A FAR SIMPLER EXPLANATION, USUALLY THAT THE IS PROCESS, THE LAW, HOW YOU DO IT.

>> A LOT OF THIS COMING FROM THE PEOPLE ON THE SAME BALLOT AND ARE IN OFFICE BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION.

>> AND IF REPUBLICANS, NO MAJOR CHANGES COME TO HOW THE ELECTION IS RUN IN 2022, ARE THEY GOING TO BELIEVE THAT ELECTION?

I'M ASSUMING THEY'RE GOING TO, THAT'S THE CANDIDATE THEY WANT AND THAT CANDIDATE WON, WHICH SHOWS THE POINT NOTHING WRONG HAPPENED IN 2020.

TED: IT WILL BE INTERESTING AS WELL TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE LEGISLATURE AS FAR AS ELECTION INTEGRITY AND WHAT'S BEING PUSHED AND ESPECIALLY WITH WE FIND OUT WHAT THE DISTRICTS HOLD AS FAR AS THE LEGISLATIVE MAJORITIES AND MINORITIES.

DILLON, LAST TOPIC HERE, AS CONGRESSMAN BIGGS AND GOSAR, THE "NEW YORK TIMES" SAYS BIGGS AND GOSAR WERE OUTSIZED ROLE, IN JANUARY 6.

ARE WE FINDING OUT WHAT MORE WAS SAID AND DONE BEFORE 1/6?

>> I KNOW THEY TALKED A LOT OF LOCAL POLITICIANS.

THEY'VE GOT A BUNCH OF RECORDS FROM TRUMP'S CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS WHICH SHED A LIGHT ON THE COMMUNICATIONS HE WAS HAVING ON JANUARY 6, AND RIGHT AFTER IT HAPPENED, WE HAD THE ONE GUY LEADING THE EFFORT FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, ALI ALEXANDER WHO MENTIONED ANDY BIGGS AND PAUL GOSAR AND KNOW GOSAR HAD CONNECTION, BIGGS DENIED EVERYTHING, NOW PERSONAL PHONE AND SOCIAL MEDIA RECORDS ARE GOING TO BE SUBPOENAED, SO I THINK WE MIGHT SEE A LITTLE MORE INFORMATION.

TED: WILL WE SEE MORE INFORMATION?

WHAT DO YOU THINK, JIM?

DOES THE STORY HAVE LEGS?

>> I THINK SO.

AS THE COMMISSION DOES ITS WORK AND GETS DOCUMENTS AND WINS COURT BATTLES, IT'S GOING TO BE INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT FOR FOLKS TO HOLD BACK AND TO AVOID IT.

I THINK ULTIMATELY MIGHT COME UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AS TO HOW FAR THEY'RE WILLING TO PUSH IT, BUT I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT MORE WE LEARN WHO WAS DOING WHAT AND WHEN.

>> THIS HAS GOTTEN JIM JORDAN, CONGRESSMAN FROM OHIO TO FESS UP AND SAY YEAH, I WAS SENDING SOME OF THE TEXTS.

HE WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT THAT BEFORE, BUT THEY SORT OF GOT HIM ON IT.

TED: YOU WERE AT THE ELECTION INTEGRITY RALLY.

ASSUMING MOST OF THE PEOPLE SUPPORT A CONGRESSMAN BIGGS OR CONGRESSMAN GOSAR.

MOST IF NOT ALL.

WHATEVER HAPPENS AS FAR AS THE 1/6 COMMISSION, IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT THEM?

PROVIDED THEY HAVE SIMILAR DISTRICTS AS THEY HAVE NOW?

>> NOT UNLESS THEY ARE CRIMINALLY INDICTED AND BARRED FROM RUNNING.

TED: EVEN CRIMINALLY INDICTED?

HONESTLY, DO YOU THINK IF THEY ARE CRIMINALLY INDICTED, THIS WOULD AFFECT THEM IN THE DISTRICTS?

>> NOT IN THE DISTRICTS THEY'RE IN NOW AND NOT IN THE DISTRICTS THEY LIKELY WILL RUN IN.

I THINK BOTH OF THEM ARE, WHETHER PAUL GOSAR GETS DRAWN INTO -- WHICHEVER DISTRICT HE GETS DRAWN INTO, HE MADE IT CLEARLY KNOWN HE'S GOING TO RUN FOR THE MOST REPUBLICAN DISTRICT HE HAS THE ABILITY TO.

YOU KNOW, AND ANDY BIGGS, I DON'T THINK THERE'S DANGER HE'S GOING TO GET DRAWN INTO A DISTRICT.

HAVE YOU OTHER FOLKS IN OUR DELEGATION LOOKING AT REDISTRICTING OR PROBABLY GETTING A LOT MORE NERVOUS, I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THE TWO GENTLEMEN ARE.

TED: WHAT DO YOU THINK, DILLON?

>> BIGGS IS SAFE WITH THE EAST VALLEY DISTRICT.

THAT'S WHY HE DIDN'T JUMP INTO THE SENATE RACE WHEN HE WAS RUMORED TO AWHILE AGO, AND PAUL GOSAR, HIM GETTING CRIMINALLY INDICTED EARNS HIM MORE STREET CREDWITH HIS VOTERS.

TED: QUICKLY GO AROUND THE TABLE HERE, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK DURING THE HOLIDAYS, MOST PEOPLE ARE, AND WHEN WE GET BACK, WE HAVE A STATE OF THE STATE SPEECH, LEGISLATIVE SESSION AND EVERYTHING HAPPENING.

MARY JO, START WITH YOU, THE BIG TOPIC AT THE LEGISLATURE THIS SESSION WILL BE?

>> I CAN JUST DO ONE?

TED: YES.

>> THE BIG ONE.

>> TAX CUTS.

TED: MY GOODNESS, YOU THINK SO, HUH?

>> WELL, IT'S DUCEY'S LAST YEAR AS GOVERNOR, AND WE'VE GOT THE BIG TAX CUT THAT IS ON HOLD FOR THE BALLOT, SO WHAT IS GOING TO BE DONE TO PERHAPS FEND THAT OFF, AND THEY GOT THEIR FLUSHED REVENUES.

TED: JIM, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK ELECTION, THE ELECTION INTEGRITY ISSUE IS GOING TO COME BACK.

LAST YEAR WAS A FLOOD OF THOSE KINDS OF BILLS.

A HANDFUL GOT THROUGH.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE THIS TIME AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO USE THE SENATE'S AUDIT AS THE BACK DROP TO DO A LOT OF THINGS THAT THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO DO AND USE THAT AS JUSTIFICATION FOR DOING IT.

TED: WILL GOVERNOR DUCEY SIGN THAT SORT OF LEGISLATION?

>> DEPENDS ON WHAT THE LEGISLATION IS, AND PERHAPS WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAYS ABOUT IT AND WHETHER IT WILL HELP FUTURE POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS.

TED: DILLON, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I DON'T WANT TO REPEAT JIM BUT THE TOPIC COMES UP MOST OFTEN, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF ARGUMENTS OVER ABORTION LAW.

TED: THAT'S A GOOD POINT, WE HAVE A LOT OF STUFF COMING UP THERE AS FAR AS THE SUPREME COURT.

GREAT CONVERSATION AND GREAT TO YOU HAVE IN STUDIO FOR A FULL SHOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS.

>> WE LEAVE WITH A PROGRAMMING NOTE, AN OLD FAVORITE, "CHARLIE BROWN CHRISTMAS" WILL AIR HERE ON ARIZONA PBS THIS SUNDAY NIGHT.

THERE THEY ARE, THERE'S THE GANG.

AT 6:30, SOMETHING TO REMEMBER ON THIS HOLIDAY SEASON.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW, I'M TED SIMONS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.