♪♪ The debate about the future of Iowa's Area Education Agencies continues.

We'll talk about the plans floating around the Capitol and what may be next on this edition of Iowa Press.

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♪♪ For decades, Iowa Press has brought you political leaders and newsmakers from across Iowa and beyond.

Celebrating 50 years of broadcast excellence on statewide Iowa PBS, this is the Friday, March 8th edition of Iowa Press.

Here is Kay Henderson.

♪♪ Henderson: We are back from a week-long hiatus so this network could bring you the Girls High School Basketball Tournament.

Two weeks ago, we had a program exploring Area Education Agencies, what they do, and some of the proposals at the Statehouse.

Since then, the Iowa House of Representatives has endorsed its own plan.

Two of our, both of our guests today are involved in the AEA debate.

Joining us today are Todd Abrahamson, he is the Superintendent of the Okoboji Schools and Thomas Mayes is the General Counsel for the Iowa Department of Education.

Gentlemen, thanks for being here today.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

Henderson: Also joining our conversation are Stephen Gruber-Miller of the Des Moines Register and Erin Murphy of the Gazette in Cedar Rapids.

Murphy: Todd Abrahamson, Kay mentioned the House bill that passed this week out of the, well out of the Iowa House.

It doesn't do quite as much as what the Governor originally proposed at the start of this session.

What are your thoughts on the House bill?

And does it accomplish what you'd like to see happen?

Abrahamson: Well, I appreciate what the House has done.

I know it has been a hot topic and a debate but at least they got something accomplished.

I would like to have seen a little more, but at least there has been progress in that process.

So, it was good to see that happen.

Murphy: Is there any particular areas where you feel the House bill falls short?

Abrahamson: Well, for me as Okoboji and other superintendents that are for this bill, I would really like to see those ed and media service dollars come next year and then wait a year on the special ed, at year two kind of have those dollars back to the district and then look at a February 1st date if you wanted to go back or opt into the AEA.

My thing is if you want to stay with the AEA you can you could choose to do partial services, or those districts could opt out and do it on their own.

And I'm just advocating for those districts that really want to do that.

So, if you want to stay with the AEA, that's fine, I'm not opposed to that, but allow those districts that really want to use those resources because they know the betterment of their kids, that's what I'd like to see that we get the option to do that and I think that's what the Governor's intent in the bill was, which I'm in favor of.

Murphy: Thomas Mayes, Todd laid out one of the biggest differences is that funding structure that the Governor proposed is not in the House bill.

Is it your sense that the House proposal like that is not something the Governor would like to sign off on?

Mayes: I would not like to speak for the Governor.

However, I would like to advocate considering the additional flexibility that the Senate bill offers.

Like Superintendent Abrahamson said, for special education services there is, if you like your AEA stick with the AEA, but the Senate bill provides more choices to local communities to address their special education needs.

Gruber-Miller: Obviously the debate is ongoing.

Thomas Mayes, the Governor sent a letter to some superintendents this week that seemed to indicate there might be some changes coming to her proposal.

Do you know what kind of changes we might be expecting to see?

Mayes: Again, I cannot speak for Governor Reynolds.

However, I think everything is on the table.

The only thing I think from the Governor's perspective that is not on the table is the status quo.

The system is not yielding the results that we would expect based on the amount of resources invested in the system.

So, so long as any change proposal addresses the additional flexibility that schools are asking for, I think everything is on the table.

But I would not presume to speak for Governor Reynolds.

Gruber-Miller: Sure.

And Todd Abrahamson, from your perspective, you mentioned you like to see some changes in the system.

What is not working from the way that you interact with the AEAs currently.

Abrahamson: Well, I've been a superintendent for over 20 years and we've always questioned kind of those flow-through dollars in the services that are provided.

Now, there's probably AEAs that do it well and others not so well, and I think that accountability needs to be put in place to hold more accountability on those dollars.

And I guess for me personally in our district and the superintendents that are in favor of this bill that I've talked to over the state is we know our students, we understand the needs of our students, we would rather have those resources directly with our kiddos, our staff, because there is even frustration among my staff that feel there's needs not being met.

And when you get those emails from your own staff saying hey, can you help me, what can we do more, that's where it's part of my job as a leader to intervene with that and express those concerns.

And I just think we know our students, our families, know the school district and it would just be nice to have those dollars to, I just think you're going to see better results when those districts can manage those dollars.

And we've already, in an area with other districts within the Okoboji area, Spirit Lake and others, have already started brainstorming ideas what we could do even together, if we could share those dollars and resources together and create our own little consortium.

And that's all we're asking for, as Thomas alluded to and I said earlier, if you want to stay with the AEA, great, but allow those districts to do the things that they want to do and we're planning those.

And so, I just ask those that are in opposition just to support those that want to make a change and do things different and then hold us even more accountable.

But I just think that the dollars need to come back to the school districts and you're going to see bigger changes, bigger advancements and more accountability with those dollars.

Henderson: Thomas Mayes, just in case people aren't as up to speed as you fellows are on the Governor's plan, talk about -- so people understand what the flow-through dollars are.

It's federal money and it's state money that is for special education, correct?

Mayes: For special education services.

A portion of the funding model directs funds that are raised at the local level to the AEA to support special education services.

The Governor's proposal would allow districts to have more direct control over those, reclaim those, make local decisions about how those funds are to be spent.

Henderson: Mr. Abrahamson, you have said in testimony at the legislature that you'd like to hire your own staff if you had that money.

Would every school district in Iowa be able to do that?

Do they have the financial resources that you may have to do that?

Abrahamson: I can't speak to other districts or rural districts.

I know change is good.

I know change is hard.

But I think you can only sit down at the table and some up with the models that you need.

And when I said we would hire our own staff, those AEA personnel that are in our buildings are good people, they're the boots on the ground and there's times when you talk with them they see the frustration between the districts and the AEA.

So, they're stuck in a difficult place.

So, my intention would be to reach out to those individuals right away to say hey, we have the dollars, you know our staff, you know our students, come work for us.

And so, I think that's an opportunity to grow and to strengthen your special ed departments, the cohesiveness between your staff and the district because they're there every day.

And so, I just think those dollars would benefit more and you'd see stronger results.

And those districts, a neighboring district that is smaller than us, that's why we reached out to them saying hey, we could make this work.

And I think there are bright people and that's why we need to be working together and collaborating because this can work and we've already taken the steps to do that.

Even though a bill hasn't passed, we're being proactive in making sure that we can make this happen.

Henderson: So, Thomas, the AEA staff that go into the schools, they don't stay there very long, right?

They come through, they maybe help a student with language issues, but the full-time staff at a school are responsible for the IEPs that help educate students with special needs, right?

Mayes: Correct.

Most special education support services personnel at the AEAs provide itinerant services or are in periodically.

The vast majority of instructional services are provided by district employees.

That being said, if the model that is currently built was effective, we would see increased achievement amongst children with disabilities.

So, that is one of the rationales behind Governor Reynolds' proposals in addition to providing funding flexibility to provide a catalyst to improve student achievement.

Murphy: On that we've heard some pushback on that, that the Governor's motivation for this or justification maybe I should say using certain test scores is not a proper way to analyze students with special education.

What is the Department's position on that?

And how do you I guess measure the success of students with these special education needs?

Mayes: Well, every student is different but there are students with or without disabilities, every individual is different.

But the National Assessment of Education Progress, or NAPE, is the gold standard that is used by the U.S. Department of Education to measure education achievement for students with and without disabilities between states and across time.

Murphy: But NAPE also says right on its website that our scores shouldn't be used to guide policy decisions.

Mayes: But the U.S. Department of Education does exactly that.

Our oversight, the Department of Education's oversight is driven by, oversight by the U.S. Department of Education is driven by Iowa's NAPE results including significant gaps between children with and without disabilities.

So, it is a tool that is used by the U.S. Department of Education and it is the gold standard of assessment and allows apples to apples comparisons between states over time.

Murphy: And speaking of oversight, we wanted to ask you about that as well.

When we had the AEA folks on here a couple of weeks ago they said that we have to be accredited each year, our budgets are reviewed, we're basically treated like a school district.

What is the case made for why the department needs to have a whole new section of staff dedicated to AEA oversight, which is part of these proposals?

Mayes: First, achievement.

And then second, compliance with federal law.

Right now, the Iowa Department of Education has the statutory obligation to provide general supervision over education, special education in the state of Iowa.

By local law, by local choice, we have also given a part of that responsibility to the AEAs.

That leaves an odd situation where two entities are sharing the duty to supervise.

Who comes first?

Who acts first?

The AEA or the department?

It is an unusual regime of general supervision unlike any other state.

It leads to the possibility of things getting missed.

So, that is why the proposal is to unify that structure at the department.

Gruber-Miller: Todd Abrahamson, the Department of Education just announced a new contract with the ASK Resource Center in Johnston to provide sort of advocates for families of students with disabilities to help them understand their rights and this replaces a program that did something similar that was run by the AEAs.

How was that AEA run program, family and educator partnership, working in your district?

And do you think that a Central Iowa organization is able to kind of perform those same services?

Abrahamson: So, I'm not the expert on that.

For our district it wasn't utilized that much.

But what I can say, I know change is hard, but change is good, but I think prior to that it was through a grant program.

Well, then when the grant was established then I think, like anything happens with a grant, there's sometimes a lot of unaccountability for that.

So, I don't know if there was good structure or accountability on how that program actually worked.

Now we have, I believe this will be a more centralized, more accountability, more structure with this move.

So, that's my own personal opinion.

Like I said, I'm not the expert on that.

Thomas might be able to allude to that more.

But that is my own personal opinion on that.

Gruber-Miller: Yeah, help us understand, Thomas, what were some of the issues that the department saw with the way that the program was working that caused you to make this switch?

Mayes: Inconsistency across the state, inconsistency with roles.

Am I the family's advocate or am I an information source?

If a family tells me something as a family educator partner in confidence, some families mistakenly viewed their family educator partner as their advocate or their lawyer, and so would tell them things in secret or seek advice from them, and then at the very next IEP meeting or very next staffing for their child see them sitting across the table.

So, there was some confusion in role and inconsistency of application over time.

And the intent of moving this to the ASK Resource Center, which has years of experience providing these services across the state, the intent is that those services be regionalized.

So, not everybody is going to be housed just a block from here in Johnston.

There will be accessibility throughout the state.

Henderson: Earlier in our conversation, education and media services were brought up, two other services that are provided by the AEAs.

Thomas Mayes, could you just bring our listeners and viewers up to speed?

What are those?

Education services like teacher training?

Mayes: Teacher training, professional development, helping schools make improvement towards the requirements of the Every Student Succeeds Act, media services, media production, shared media materials.

The rationale behind the Governor's bill is perhaps those could be handled better locally or handled better in consortia based on local needs.

So, the two other services aside from special education, helping with instructional materials and helping improve the quality of instruction.

Henderson: You at Okoboji have argued that you'd like to have a fee for service and the Governor has argued that these particular two services that the AEAs provide could be provided by the private sector.

Is that the case?

Abrahamson: Yeah, so for us we don't use the ed and media services rarely with the AEA.

We have a really, really good staff and our instructional coaches do all of our professional development.

I can't remember the last time we used the AEA on our professional development, instructional coaches.

That's why my staff is just rock solid, they're rockstars and we would love to have those dollars to enhance even more for our professional development because that goes right into the classrooms and our test scores is evidence of why we're above our Prairie Lakes AEA and above the state in a lot of our math and reading.

That is predicated on my teaching staff and my associates and the in-house professional development we do.

And then with the media services, same thing, I have enough resources within our community to reach out for those media services whether it's print production or there's times we sit down at the table and work out deals and contracts with marketing firms on print services and district letterhead, stuff like that, we're just doing a lot of stuff in-house or within our community.

Murphy: Todd, another part of this that the Governor's staff has talked about is that AEA pay may be distorting the market that salaries are high and even that they pay staff at a level that poaches teachers from the area because they can get paid better at the AEAs.

Is that something you have experienced in Northwest Iowa?

Abrahamson: Yeah, I'm all for paying people and I'm not saying hey, but when you have teachers in the classrooms and you see this discrepancies in pay in the AEA when you have teachers and other staff that are constantly in these classrooms, I think it's an injustice when it comes to that pay when these teachers and associates are with these kiddos every day, day in and day out, and I just think over time the AEAs have just become very top heavy and there's just not been that accountability there.

And I have nothing personal against anybody.

I'm just saying channel those dollars back into the classrooms.

These are taxpayer dollars.

We could do more with these dollars and impact our student achievement, our kiddos and our teachers and our staff.

So, I just think in those upper tiers there should be some changes and could be some changes.

And even for the lower tiers of the AEA, I would think they're not as happy as well.

But I understand that can be difficult for them to talk about those things.

But, again, that's my personal opinion, others probably disagree with that, but that's how I see it.

Henderson: Thomas, could you tell us, does the state need to get a waiver to make this change about where the federal dollars flow?

Mayes: No.

Henderson: Okay.

Gruber-Miller: Part of the Governor's AEA proposal also includes a pay increase for starting teachers from the current minimum of $33,500 to $50,000 a year.

The House just passed that separately.

But I'm curious for you, Todd, those rates, what is Okoboji hiring teachers in at?

And is $50,000 enough to make you competitive?

Abrahamson: Oh yeah, $50,000 will make us very competitive.

With our base, with our TSS it's around $41,000 currently so that bump up to $50,000 would be great, it's a long time coming.

I think everybody supports that on both sides of the aisle.

So, this would be a great thing and it sounds like it will be fully funded with the new money.

So, that's an exciting piece and I'm excited for teachers and I was also excited to see that hourly piece for the support staff.

So, another longtime thing coming.

So, what I get encouraged about is when people can sit at the table and work those things out.

The same thing can happen on this AEA bill, if we just sit at the table, compromise and I understand emotions are difficult, but a lot of times emotions sometimes drive these decisions and we forget about the kiddos in the classroom.

But, back to your question on the pay, this will make everybody competitive and it's exciting that that's part of it.

Gruber-Miller: Thomas Mayes, Todd was just mentioning that part of the House bill includes a pay increase to get paraeducators and other non-salaried school staff up to $15 an hour.

That wasn't in the Governor's original proposal.

I'm curious kind of how she would view that or how the department views that as an important recruitment tool.

Thomas Mayes: Again, not going topresume to speak for the Governor, but anything that makes Iowa competitive with surrounding states, especially school districts on the borders, any additional competitive advantage or bringing Iowa's school district employers up to parity, anything would be welcomed.

Henderson: We have a couple of minutes left.

The House has taken a number of debates on a number of education-related bills.

One of them at the end of the debate, Representative Skyler Wheeler, who is from your neck of the woods, Northwest Iowa, Hull, said there are several Northwest Iowa school districts who are interested in this proposal that would provide professional licenses to volunteers among school staff to be armed at school.

Is your school one of those?

Abrahamson: We are not.

Henderson: Why?

Abrahamson: It was just, again, every district is different, every board is different.

Now, I've done a 180 from a year ago.

The Perry incident was a tragedy.

My heart goes out to those families, to the school district, to the community and when you hear the reports they did things right, but it still took seven minutes for law enforcement to get there, and so that is why I've kind of done the 180 of maybe you do arm just for that extra protection.

And I would advocate there's also those non-lethal type weapons that shoot more of a hard projectile.

I think that would, that's my personal opinion, because I am a gun owner and train all the time, have a military background and it doesn't mean that everyone is an expert.

So, I understand it.

It's difficult that we're having these discussions in school.

But that one hit home and I just think you start to think differently.

So, I support those schools that will do that.

I don't know if Okoboji will do that.

That really would be a huge discussion at the board table.

But from a year ago I was against it, but now with this tragedy that happened it has just made me rethink some things and hopefully they get that right.

Like I said, I'm rambling here, but I think some non-lethal things could be a part of that as well.

Henderson: Well, I have to say our discussion at this table is done because we're out of time.

Thanks to both of you for being here and sharing your views with our viewers.

Abrahamson: Thank you very much.

Mayes: Thank you.

You can watch every episode of Iowa Press online at iowapbs.org.

For everyone here at Iowa PBS, thanks for watching today.

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♪♪