Narrator Today on Spectrum you'll find a supreme treat, a legend in the rain forest, and a scholar of Polynesia.

The James McCuen dancers perform a duet in Waimea Falls Park, surrounded by a compelling fragrance, a young man searches the spirit of the ginger blossom.

Theologian John Charlot reflects on ancient Hawaiian religion as he surveys the Polynesian spirit.

But first, we taste the many tantalizing flavors of shave ice when you join three errant spirits on their quest for the cone supreme.

Tom, Andy, and Joett search through town and traverse the cane fields of Haleiwa to find the right bite of shave ice.

Remember that first bite?

How good it was?

How cold it felt melting in your mouth.

That first cool sweet mouthful of shaved ice.

Hmmm.

Shave ice is so much a part of growing up in Hawaiʻi.

One of the memories of small kid times.

A reward for having been good.

That cool treat so welcome on hot days.

The hoped for prize after school or on the way home after a day at the beach.

A celebration.

Tom Hello, may I speak to executive director please?

Yeah, Tom Pires calling.

Hello, Joett.

How you doing?

Great.

Hey, is Andy with you?

Super.

What are you guys doing?

Working on a big deal of yours?

Hey, you know I just closed a big deal also, and I want to celebrate today.

What do you say?

No, no, no champagne.

Shave ice girl, shave ice.

For real!

Okay, I'll pick you up in about 10 minutes.

All right.

See you later.

Narrator I think many of us remember eating our first shave ice much more than tasting other delights like ice cream.

Ingredients were not expensive and were readily available.

Ice, syrup, a bench to sit on.

Tom Okay, you guys are really in for a super, super treat 'cause this is my favorite place.

The guy makes his own ice and his shave ice is so, so fine.

Joett Tom, you come here all the time?

Tom Oh, yeah.

Every Saturday I come down here after playing tennis.

And that's why I know it's the best.

I've tried all other places, but this place like I said, is so fine it'll melt in your mouth.

I guarantee it.

Money Back Guarantee.

Okay, you try the pineapple.

There you go.

I tell you.

The best shave in town.

The best.

Joett: You try pineapple before?

Tom: No.

Andy: That's pretty good.

Tom: Mmm.

Andy: That good?

Andy Lets sit down down here.

Tom Okay, okay.

That's a good idea.

Yeah.

Andy Well Tom, congratulations.

Joett: Congratulations Tom.

Andy: Thanks for calling us you.

Tom: You're welcome.

Tom How you like this?

Joett: Not too bad.

Joett Smooth?

Joett: Smooth, but, you know, real shave ice has crunch.

Tom Crunch?

Joett Yeah.

Let me tell you guys, why don't you come with me and I'll take you over to my favorite place, okay?

Tom All right.

Andy: You get to go to her place, you gotta go to go to my place too.

Tom: Okay, we'll go to her place.

Then we'll go to your place.

Joett: Okay.

Tom: Shall we go?

Narrator The first cast iron shave ice machines were cranked by hand.

These were later powered by electricity.

Some operating with a foot pedal, others with hand switches.

Joett Hi Betsy!

I brought in my two friends.

They don't believe you carry the best shave ice on the island.

Tom You sure this place better than mine?

Betsy Oh, of course.

Joett: Tell us how old your machine is.

Betsy: I understand this machine is about - it's a 1940 or 1941 model, it's a pre-war.

And I've used it now for about 17 years.

Tom: Same store too?

Betsy: Yes in the same location where it was an old wooden building.

Yeah, but building has changed but the machine is the same.

Tom: Okay, okay.

Betsy: And I've had this store now for 32 years and I've making shave right since that time.

Joett And she makes her own flavors, you know?

Andy: Terrif, terrif Joett: So, what are you featuring this week, Betsy?

Any new flavors?

Betsy Well we have bubble gum.

Group Bubble gum?

I'll have bubble gum.

I get bubble bum.

Betsy Watermelon Joett: You know how the saying goes?

Tom: You don't try it, you don't know.

Okay, okay.

Okay.

Joett What do you guys want?

Tom & Andy: Bubble gum.

Joett: I'll try watermelon.

Betsy: Alright.

(Machine whirs) Joett Try this?

Not bad huh?

So what do you think?

Tom: Uhhhh.

Andy I think it's good I think my place is best.

Let's go to my place.

Tom & Joett: Ok. (Instrumental music) Tom We need some shave ice.

What flavors you guys gon' get?

Andy I'm getting that, pink.

Joett Pink?

This sign is a decorator's delight.

Look at this - dark orange, light orange.

Tom: Get too many flavors!

Andy: Pink - coconut.

Joett Coconuts not pink!

Andy: P-I-N-K, pink, pink and brown.

Tom: Gutsy ah you?

Pink and brown!

Joett: You know what's gonna happen when those two mix up ah?

Tom: You not supposed to mix root beer with any other flavor!

Come out junk!

Joett You know the best kind of shave ice is going to be virgin shave ice.

Nothing inside except shave ice and strawberry you know the red flavor.

Kay, lets decide now what size.

Tom: Yeah.

Joett: Tom, look how extensive got?

Tom: You get money or what?

Joett: Andy?

Tom Remember small kid time was only nickel.

15 cents.

Now 75 cents!

That's ok, I goin' splurge.

I treat you guys.

I treat you guys.

Andy Ok.

I'm gonna have the deluxe.

Large.

Ice cream and black beans.

Tom: You wanna try this one?

Look the rainbow?

Joett That might work out, you know?

Strawberry Tom I don't know what that one.

Pink and then lemon, yellow.

Like try that one.

Andy Lemon's blue, blue.

Tom: Lemon's blue?

Joett Okay, Tom, I'm just gonna give you a break, kay.

I'll just have the largest plain strawberry.

That's my favorite yeah.

Tom Where the girl?

Where the girl?

We go order.

Andy: Where do we order from?

Tom: Right over here I think.

Girl: Can I help you?

Tom: I want green.

Coconut.

Joett And I'm gonna just have plain strawberry.

Andy Can I get the pink, brown and blue please?

Girl: How many small and how many large here?

Andy: One large Joett: I want a small, red.

Tom I like large.

Girl: Two large and a small.

Any with ice cream or beans?

Andy: One ice cream, one beans.

Joett I just want my plain.

Andy: Ice cream, beans plains.

Tom: Azuki.

(Machine whirs) Tom This guy was telling me this machine over here is 25 years old.

Notice the difference with your hand crank -- versus the new ones over there where it's all electric and everything.

Tom Plus I like the sound machines of the old, old machines.

Tinkling sound and everything.

Cast iron.

Much slower than the other one.

Look at the other one go.

Girl: This is the one with the beans.

Tom: I like green and coconut.

Girl: Lime and coconut.

Joett But look what happened, told you.

Tom: Thank you.

Andy: Where's mine?

Girl: Ok the ice cream and beans.

Andy: Let me have pink, brown and blue please?

Tom Hmm coconut.

Woman: Coconut, pineapple, root beer.

Coconut.

Ok thank you.

Andy: Doesn't that look good.

Joett This stuff is good.

Tom: Try this one Jo.

Joett: You sure it's good?

Tom: Ono, ono, one.

Try, try.

Joett: Mmmm.

Andy: Try this one.

This one's better.

Joett: Ok. Well you remember.

Tom: What?

Joett: You get red tongue.

Tom: Oh yeah.

I remember that.

Joett: Make fun of you!

Tom: Yeah I remember yeah.

Narrator Can you remember that first bite?

How it tasted.

Cold and sweet.

Green lime, yellow lemon, brown root beer.

Nowadays there are so many new flavors to choose from that it is often hard to reach a decision.

So that what you often end up with is - rainbow.

(Instrumental music) Narrator Coming up on Spectrum is Polynesian scholar John Charlot.

Now Suzanne Auzias de Turenne and James Auwae meet deep in the rain forest of Waimea Falls.

Olomana provides the music with a song and titled Kuʻu Lei Awapuhi as James and Suzanne dance the Legend of Ginger Lei.

Narrator (Instrumental music) ʻAuhea la ʻoe e ke aloha ʻAwapuhi pala o ka ua noe A eia no me au I ka poli o ke aloha E kuʻu aloha ē (e ō) ʻAuhea la ʻoe (e ia no au) A huli aku au ia ʻoe (Instrumental music) E kuʻu aloha ē (e ō) ʻAuhea la ʻoe (e ia no au) A huli aku au ia ʻoe E kuʻu aloha ē (e ō) ʻAuhea la ʻoe (e ia no au) A huli aku au ia ʻoe A huli aku au ia ʻoe (Instrumental music) Narrator Hawaii Public Television's Nino J. Martin visits with the son of famed muralist Jean Charlot.

Dr. John Charlot will discuss his new book entitled "Chanting the Universe" and point out the diverse and enduring roots of Hawaiʻi's religious culture.

Nino J. Martin John, it's nice to have you here with us on Spectrum.

Thank you for coming out here today.

John: Thank you.

Nino: You have been a resident of the islands for quite some time.

And, but before that you were at Brandon University - no not Brandon, but rather Munich, you graduated as a PhD?

John Charlot Yes well, we came here in 1949 of all things when I was eight years old, and I've been kicking around ever since to the mainland and back here for school.

Nino: Your mom and your dad, and Martin and Peter.

John: Martin, brother Martin, brother Peter and sister Ann.

Nino J. Martin And now you left the Hawaiian Islands.

A loss to us, certainly.

And you've gone up to Brandan University up in Manitoba, Canada.

Why did you leave here?

John Charlot I couldn't find a job here in Hawaiʻi and they offered me a job there.

I've been working at the university, we developed a whole series of courses on Hawaiian religion, but they wouldn't support it with a position.

And now, even those courses have been cut, I understand.

Nino J. Martin The thing that's interesting, though, is we still haven't lost touch with you.

You're still here in spirit, and also through a new book that you've just written called "Chanting the Universe."

And why did you select the title Chanting the Universe?

John Charlot My original title was Hawaiian Religious Culture, which for me says a lot about Hawaiian culture, that its culture and its religion, and that the two are absolutely permeating each other.

But chant is so important in Hawaiʻi, and I wrote much of the book from poetry.

Reading poetry, finding out what it said about Hawaiian culture.

And the concern of poetry is really basically the universe.

They talk about flowers, they talk about lovemaking, they talk about people that behind all of those things, you always have that context of.

The context as a whole universe.

So Chanting the Universe, put those two ends together for me.

Nino J. Martin What was the - your purpose, your reason for writing this book?

John Charlot Well, I just started studying Hawaiian culture.

It took me a long time to get around to it, I must say, we came in '48.

And as you know, my father '49.

And my father immediately got into Hawaiian culture, and he wanted to get me into it.

But I really had to recover my own roots.

So I had to go back to Greece and Rome, and the ancient Israelites.

Nino: You actually lived in Europe?

John: Worked my way up.

Yes.

And going back to France, for instance, was very important for me.

I'm very French.

And going back there living in France kind of got me in touch with myself.

And it was only after I learned about my own culture that I was able to get into Hawaiian culture.

Nino: Would you consider it a scholarly work?

John: Well, it's hopefully written for a popular audience.

But I think I have more scholarly background to - in the book than is usual in such a work.

I think the main thing is, is that I work from Hawaiian sources.

I've read a, by now, a good deal of Hawaiian literature.

And I felt that that expressed, for me, what Hawaiian culture was all about.

So I do my own translations in the book.

Nino J. Martin One thing in your book that you mentioned, and that is the Hawaiian saying, "Look to the source."

John Charlot Well, that's a very famous Hawaiian saying and Hawaiians feel that it says a lot about their way of thinking.

And we have that also in Western culture.

Our word principle comes from the Latin word which means the beginning of things and the idea is if you know how something began, you understand how it operates, you understand its character.

So Hawaiians ask that question a lot when they're trying to understand something.

And they can ask it about little things.

What is the origin of this stone?

What is this origin of this person's personality?

Or they can ask it about the whole universe.

Nino J. Martin You're really talking about the essence of something then aren't you?

John Charlot I'm trying to find out how Hawaiian thinking works.

In other words, not this fact.

Not that fact.

But what is the whole cultural process behind Hawaiian culture?

What's going on in their heads and their feelings as they do this or that particular action.

Nino J. Martin Doesn't this also relate to the purpose of something, the origination of something for a given purpose?

How do the Hawaiians look at that?

John Charlot Well, they use the concept of a search.

Of course, things can have a purpose, you make an adz to cut a canoe, you make a net to, to catch fish.

But again, they see this all in a much deeper context than just a particular purpose.

They see this as a great search, where people are trying to understand this world that they're living in.

Trying to understand themselves.

So everything they do, turns into a kind of meditative effort, uh meditative sinking into and appreciating the action that they're performing.

Nino J. Martin How about the relationship between the Hawaiians and their land?

Where they live, their soil?

How do they relate to that?

John Charlot Well, they have a very strong attachment to the land, of course.

They call themselves children of the land.

And they mean this very literally, because in the Kumulipo, you have the meeting of the sky and earth, and everything comes out of that meeting.

So they have a strong what we could call an evolutionary view.

We don't think of ourselves as so much on a family tree as Hawaiians did, but they saw themselves as literally related to animals, plants, different lands, create different personalities.

So if you ask somebody who his family is, if you ask him, what land he comes from, that gives you two fixes for understanding that person.

Nino J. Martin And of course, it's a very small society where it will be a lot easier to do that in a small society than say, a larger one.

In the book you mentioned the difference between two Polynesian cultures.

The Samoans and Hawaiians all originated from one culture but yet, the evolution of these two cultures within the Polynesian culture are diverse.

Why are they different?

They've been - both originated from one place, the South Pacifc.

Why are they different?

John Charlot Polynesians are very creative people.

And they're in continual movement creatively.

And so it's natural, and people are isolated over centuries and centuries that they'd be moving in different directions.

I admire both cultures very much.

But Samoan culture is very people oriented, very society oriented.

The important thing is your relations in the community.

Hawaiians were always a small population and a very big land.

And so the context that they thought of themselves in was much more nature as a whole.

Nino J. Martin Do you feel that the, the Samoan culture has been able to maintain itself more intact over the centuries in contrast to the Hawaiian culture?

John Charlot Well, in many ways they have.

They've kept their political system fairly intact, and many of their customs and things.

Of course, they didn't have the big influence of non-Samoans that Hawaiians had here.

Non-Hawaiians coming in.

Hawaiians were on the trade route, so they bore the brunt of the foreign pressure on Polynesia.

But I think also Samoans were marvelous politicians and are and in many ways, were able to dichotomize the different sections of their lives in ways that Hawaiians didn't apply.

For Samoans, there's a strong contrast between the outside that they show and the inside feelings.

Hawaiians had much more of a sense of the outside should show what the inside is feeling.

And so that made them somewhat more vulnerable.

It cut off certain avenues of protection for them that Samoans could allow themselves.

But I'm always amazed at how much of Hawaiian culture has survived.

And when I started religion classes at the university, people said, "Well, why are you studying Hawaiian religion?

There's nothing left."

And then of course, there was a good deal and with the Kahoʻolawe movement, a good deal of that suddenly came to the surface.

I think that the Kahoʻolawe movement has brought a lot of things into the public that were hidden before.

And of course, that makes me very happy.

Nino J. Martin Do you think that there is a renaissance then going back to the original philosophical principles of the Hawaiian culture as it was centuries ago?

John Charlot In a way those principles have never died out when families have kept them alive.

The difficulty was recognizing them, understanding them and appreciating them.

Because in many ways, they were different from haole ways.

So the Hawaiian Renaissance has told people there is value in these ideas.

And I hope that my book will, if you want, establish a kind of continuity between many of the things Hawaiians know now in practice, just from their upbringing in their souls, and what went on before.

So they know that they're living in a real cultural continuity with their past.

Nino J. Martin How do you feel as a Westerner, trained as a Westerner - Can a Westerner really ever understand the Hawaiian?

John Charlot Not the way a Hawaiian would.

In my book, I'm always careful to preserve that difference between me, my way of looking at things, and a Hawaiian and the way he'd look at them.

Nino J. Martin You had an interesting anecdote from the book.

Some student of yours.

Tell it.

John Charlot Yes.

Well, it's not in the book, but it was afterwards a very good student of mine.

And she said, I couldn't understand the highest things because of course, I wasn't Hawaiian.

And I couldn't understand the basic things like flowers and plants because I hadn't been raised Hawaiian, but I was pretty good at the middle stuff.

I think that's a pretty good perception of my understanding of Hawaiian culture.

Nino J. Martin Our guest today is Dr. John Charlot, author of Chanting the Universe.

John, thank you very much for being with us.

John: Thank you, Nino.

Good to see you again.

(Music) E kuʻu aloha ē (e ō) ʻAuhea la ʻoe (e ia no au) A huli aku au ia ʻoe E kuʻu aloha ē (e ō) ʻAuhea la ʻoe (e ia no au) A huli aku au ia ʻoe A huli aku au ia ʻoe (Instrumental music)