>> FRAUD, BRIBERY, MISAPPROPRIATION OF FUNDS AND CONSPIRACY ARE SOME OF THE CHARGES THAT STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF IN RECENT YEARS.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS FORMED A COMMISSION TO IMPROVE STANDARDS OF CONDUCT, AIMING TO COMBAT CORRUPTION AND INCREASE OVERSIGHT, ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY.

ARE LAWMAKERS DOING ENOUGH TO FIGHT GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION AND CAN THEY DO MORE?

TONIGHT'S LIVE BROADCAST AND LIVESTREAM OF INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII STARTS NOW.

∂∂ ALOHA AND WELCOME TO INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I...I'M YUNJI DE NIES.

IT WAS A CASE THAT SHOCKED THE STATE.

TWO HAWAII LAWMAKERS - SENATOR KALANI ENGLISH, AND REPRESENTATIVE TY CULLEN, PLEADING GUILTY TO FEDERAL BRIBERY.

BOTH NOW FORMER LEGISLATORS, ADMITTED TO TAKING CASH TO STEER LEGISLATION.

IN RESPONSE, THIS SESSION, LAWMAKERS CREATED THE COMMISSION TO IMPROVE STANDARDS OF CONDUCT, TASKED WITH IMPROVING GOVERNMENT TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

THE COMMISSION'S INITIAL REPORT CALLED FOR MORE THAN A DOZEN MEASURES AIMED AT PREVENTING CORRUPTION AND INCREASING OVERSIGHT OF FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS AND FUNDRAISING IN POLITICS.

SO HOW MANY OF THE PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS WILL BECOME LAW?

AND WILL IT BE ENOUGH TO ROOT OUT CORRUPTION?

WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR PARTICIPATION IN TONIGHT'S SHOW.

YOU CAN EMAIL US OR CALL US WITH YOUR QUESTIONS.

WE ALSO ENCOURAGE YOU TO GET INVOLVED WITH THE CONVERSATION ON OUR FACEBOOK PAGE.

NOW, TO OUR GUESTS.

SANDY MA IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMON CAUSE HAWAI'I.

SHE LEADS CAMPAIGNS, FUNDRAISING, AND ENGAGES LOCAL, STATE, AND NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS IN BUILDING COALITIONS AROUND HAWAI'I, FOCUSING ON ETHICS AND ACCOUNTABILITY, MONEY AND INFLUENCE, AND VOTING AND ELECTIONS.

KRISTIN IZUMI-NITAO IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE HAWAI'I CAMPAIGN SPENDING COMMISSION WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED TO ENSURE INTEGRITY AND TRANSPARENCY IN THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE PROCESS.

PRIOR TO SERVING ON THE COMMISSION SHE WORKED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

HOLLY SHIKADA IS A THIRTY YEAR VETERAN WITH THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.

SHE COMMENCED HER CURRENT ROLE OF ATTORNEY GENERAL OF HAWAI'I IN DECEMBER OF 2021.

SHE ATTENDED THE U.H.

MANOA WHERE SHE EARNED A B.A.

IN ACCOUNTING AND HER LAW DEGREE.

AND JOINING US VIA ZOOM IS NEAL MILNER.

NEAL IS A RETIRED PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT U.H.

MANOA.

HE IS A COLUMNIST FOR HONOLULU CIVIL BEAT, A REGULAR CONTRIBUTOR TO HPR'S "THE CONVERSATION," AND A POLITICAL ANALYST FOR KITV.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

BOTH HYBRID IN-PERSON AND OVER ZOOM.

SANDY, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

THIS CASE SHOCKED SO MANY OF US IN HAWAI'I.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT CASE AND WHAT THE LAWMAKERS ARE CONSIDERING THIS CURRENT SESSION, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY IN ROOTING OUT THAT CORRUPTION.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING COMMON CAUSE TONIGHT.

WE REALLY FEEL THERE NEEDS TO BE A CULTURE SHIFT AT THE CAPITOL, AND FOCUS MORE ON PUBLIC SERVICE THAN SELF-ENRICHMENT OR SELF-ENGRANDIZEMENT.

THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF FOCUSING ON LOOKING AT THE CULTURE AT THE CAPITOL AND TURNING AWAY FROM A PUBLIC SERVICE IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING OVER THE PAST NUMBER OF YEARS.

THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN REALLY SHUT OUT OF ANY TYPE OF REAL DELIBERATION AND LAWMAKING AT THE CAPITOL.

I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND CLOSING OF THE CAPITOL.

I'M TALKING ABOUT REAL PROCESS AND LAWMAKING.

SO THERE NEEDS TO BE A CULTURE SHIFT AT THE CAPITOL.

>> Yunji: BUILDING ON THAT, KRISTIN, HOW DO WE MAKE A CULTURE SHIFT LIKE THAT HAPPEN?

THE CURRENT LEGISLATION, AND WE'LL GET INTO DETAILS OF WHAT THAT IS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT CAN HAPPEN THROUGH LAWMAKING?

>> I HOPE SO.

CERTAINLY, I THINK WHAT'S EXCITING IS THERE'S AN ELECTION TO BE HAD.

SO I THINK THIS IS A RIPE AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR OUR COMMUNITY TO REALLY WEIGH IN ON WHAT THEY WANT FROM THEIR LEGISLATIVE LEADERS, THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND TO MAKE AN IMPRINT OF WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY THEY WANT TO BUILD FROM HERE.

SO I THINK THIS IS A LAUNCHING PAD AS FAR AS HAVING A DISCUSSION.

WE HAVE THE COMMISSION, THAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, AND I THINK IT'S BEEN TRYING TO REACH OUT INTO THE PUBLIC TO GET THEIR VIEWPOINTS.

SO HOW WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

HOW THERE CAN BE CHANGES.

I THINK THE TIME IS RIPE, AND THEY WANT MORE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY.

SO CAMPAIGN SPENDING COMMISSION HAS BUILT A LOT OF FOUNDATION ON THOSE PRINCIPLES.

I THINK THIS IS AN EXCITING TIME.

>> Yunji: NEAL, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CULTURE OF POLITICS IN HAWAI'I.

WHEN WE LOOK AT TRYING TO CHANGE THAT, IS THAT POSSIBLE THROUGH THE MEANS THAT THE LEGISLATURE IS PURSUING RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT I THINK WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IS A VERY SMALL PART.

GO BACK TO THE IDEA OF PUBLIC SERVICE AS BEING THE EMPHASIS, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE COUNCIL OF STATE LEGISLATORS SAY ABOUT ETHICS EDUCATION AND CHANGING BEHAVIOR, THEY EMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO CREATE DIFFERENT NORMS AND DIFFERENT WAYS WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE TO THINK ABOUT A MORE PUBLIC SERVICE-ORIENTED THING RATHER THAN JUST HAVING A SERIES OF THINGS THAT SAY, THIS IS HOW YOU MAY NOT BEHAVE.

I WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL HERE.

I AGREE WITH ALL OF THE COMMISSIONS' FINDINGS, BUT IT'S A MUCH HARDER JOB TO CREATE A SET OF POSITIVE NORMS RATHER THAN JUST TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE PROTECTING THINGS FROM BAD BEHAVIOR.

YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT CULTURAL SHIFT, THINK OF WHAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE TO DO IN LIGHT OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE KEALOHA SCANDAL.

YOU CAN HAVE ALL KINDS OF RULES, BUT UNLESS YOU GET PEOPLE TO BEHAVE IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEVELOP A SENSE OF PUBLIC SERVICE THAT GOES FAR BEYOND THESE IDEAS OF TRANSPARENCY AND THE OTHER THINGS, YOU'RE JUST GOING TO GET A PORTION OF THIS.

ONE OTHER THING, YOU CAN'T BASE THIS KIND OF CHANGE, THIS KIND OF MOVEMENT ON THE BASIS OF THE BEHAVIOR OF THOSE TWO LEGISLATORS WHO TOOK BRIBES.

IT'S AN AWFUL THING THAT THEY DID.

IT'S AWFULLY SIMPLISTIC, AND A LITTLE BIT DUFUSY BEHAVIOR.

A SAD AND SMALL PART OF TRYING TO CREATE DIFFERENT KINDS PARTS.

>> Yunji: HOLLY, I'D LIKE TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE, FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSPECTIVE.

IS THERE MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE THAT GIVE YOUR OFFICE MORE TEETH WHEN IT COMES TO PROSECUTING CASES LIKE THIS?

AND WHY WAS THIS DONE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND NOT THE STATE LEVEL?

>> YES, THERE IS A LOT MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO GIVE THE STATE A LOT MORE TEETH.

THAT IS SOMETHING OUR OFFICE IS LOOKING AT AND WORKING ON AND HOPE TO BE PREPARED NEXT LEGISLATIVE, SOME BILLS THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE TO GIVE US SOME TEETH.

THEY HAVE LAWS THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM STATE LAWS.

AND LAWS THAT COULD ADDRESS THIS SITUATION THAT THE STATE COULD NOT.

WE DON'T HAVE THE WIRETAPPING TYPE OF LAWS, AND SO IT WAS THE FEDERAL JURISDICTION THAT COULD TAKE THAT.

THEY ALSO, I THINK, HAD THE INFORMATION THAT THE STATE NEVER HAD.

SO THIS WAS THE RIGHT JURISDICTION, I THINK, AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

WE HOPE IN THE FUTURE, IF WE CAN GET THE LAWS TO BE CHANGED, GIVE US A LITTLE BIT MORE TEETH, THE STATE WILL ALSO BE ABLE TO PURSUE THESE TYPES OF CRIMES.

>> Yunji: WHAT SPECIFICALLY WOULD NEED TO CHANGE?

>> I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A LOT MORE CRIMINAL LAWS THAT ALLOW THE STATE TO TAKE ACTION, SO EVEN AS SIMPLE AS MAKING IT A CRIME TO LIE TO THE STATE OFFICIAL AND JUST LOOKING AT THE DIFFERENT CRIMINAL LAWS.

I DON'T HAVE CRIMINAL LAW BACKGROUND.

I HAVE A WHOLE DIVISION THAT DOES CRIMINAL LAW, AND SO THEY ARE AT WORK NOW THINKING ABOUT WHAT LAWS WE NEED TO CHANGE, WHAT WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS THESE TYPES OF FRAUD AND CORRUPTION TYPE CASES.

>> Yunji: SANDY, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT LAWMAKERS ARE LOOKING AT THIS SESSION.

THERE ARE THREE MAIN AREAS THEY'RE LOOKING TO REFORM.

CAN YOU TELL US THAT SO VIEWERS WHO MAY NOT HAVE BEEN KEEPING IN AT THE LEG CAN BE INFORMED.

>> KRISTIN HERE IS WITH THE CAMPAIGN SPENDING COMMISSION.

WE HAVE SOME ETHICS BILLS, AND WE HAVE SOME TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURES.

I THINK ONE BILL, ONE MEASURE THAT'S ON A LOT OF PEOPLE'S MINDS IS SB 555, WHICH IS TO PROHIBIT FUNDRAISING DURING SESSION.

THAT'S MOVING TOWARDS CONFERENCE.

AND CONFERENCES WHERE THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE TRY TO HAMMER OUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO BILLS AS THEY MOVED THROUGH THE TWO DIFFERENT CHAMBERS.

THAT'S A SIMPLISTIC WAY OF PUTTING IT.

AND SO THIS IS TO PREVENT FUNDRAISING DURING SESSION.

ON THE SURFACE OF IT, IT SOUNDS LIKE A WONDERFUL MEASURE.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FUNDRAISE DURING SESSION.

BUT A LOT OF ADVOCATES, INCLUDING COMMON CAUSE, FEELS LIKE THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.

FUNDRAISING IS HOLDING A FUNDRAISER.

YOU FILE A NOTICE WITH KRISTIN'S CAMPAIGN COMMISSION SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO HOLD A FUNDRAISER AT A SPECIFIC LOCATION.

THAT'S GOING TO COST OVER $25 PER PERSON TO ATTEND.

THAT DOESN'T PREVENT A LEGISLATOR OR CANDIDATES RUNNING FROM OFFICE FROM CALLING UP PEOPLE ON THEIR TELEPHONE OR SENDING OUT A MASS E-MAIL SAYING, HEY, I'M RUNNING FOR OFFICE OR REELECTION?

WOULD YOU LIKE TO DONATE?

THAT IS NOT A FUNDRAISER.

YOU CAN STILL DO THAT EVEN IF SB 555 PASSES.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING WE ARE HIGHLY CONCERNED WITH.

SO SB 5555 JUST ADDRESSES SAY A PARTY.

YOU CAN'T HAVE A PARTY DURING SESSION.

THAT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE MAJOR ISSUE OF CALLING SOMEONE UP AND SAYING, HEY, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME MONEY?

AND THAT IS REALLY THE HEART OF WHAT'S WRONG.

>> Yunji: I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS.

DO YOU THINK THIS MEASURE GOES FAR ENOUGH?

IS THAT AT LEAST LIMITING THE FUNDRAISER ITSELF?

IS THAT A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> IT'S A STEP, BUT I THINK I WOULD AGREE WITH SANDY'S COMMENTS.

A FUNDRAISER IS JUST A WAY TO RAISE MONEY, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER WAYS TO RAISE MONEY BESIDES A FUNDRAISER.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS THE, YOU KNOW -- THIS IS GOING TO BE LIKE THE MAGIC BULLET THAT'S GOING TO RESOLVE ANY TYPE OF CORRUPTION.

I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS WAYS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO OBTAIN CONTRIBUTIONS AND DONATIONS FROM DONORS.

I THINK IT'S A START.

I HEARD COMMON CAUSE ADVOCATE THE ACCEPTANCE AND SOLICITATION OF CONTRIBUTIONS DURING SESSION, AND I THINK THAT THAT IN ITSELF IS A VERY VALID DISCUSSION AS WELL.

RIGHT NOW, THE CURRENT BILL THAT'S GOING TO GO TO CONFERENCE DISCUSSES ALL ELECTED OFFICIALS WOULD BE BANNED FROM HAVING FUNDRAISERS I BELIEVE REGARDLESS OF THE AMOUNT.

OVER THE $25 IS NOT A QUALIFIER DURING SESSION.

SO AGAIN, I HAVE TO SAY IT'S A START.

BECAUSE THIS BILL NOT -- IT WAS FLAGGED FROM THE PRIOR SESSION THAT WAS RESURFACED AS A RESULT OF TWO INDICTMENTS.

SO IT'S A START BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE -- IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE SOLUTION THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH TO PREVENT PUBLIC CORRUPTION BUT IT'S START.

>> Yunji: NEAL, I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS.

IN THIS DIGITAL AGE, YOU CAN HAVE AN ONLINE FUNDRAISER EASILY SO THE IDEA THAT YOU NEED TO GO TO A PAINA IS SORT OF OUTDATED.

THAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> GENERAL THOUGHT, WHAT'S INTRIGUING ABOUT CAMPAIGN FINANCE IS HOW MUCH IS A CAT AND MOUSE GAME?

THAT'S WHAT MAKES CAMPAIGN FINANCE COMMISSION SUCH A HARD JOB.

ESSENTIALLY, YOU'RE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING, AND SOMEONE ELSE, WITH THE HELP OF LAWYERS, ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WAYS AROUND THE ISSUE.

THERE'S NOT NECESSARILY ANYTHING WRONG UNLESS THEY DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL.

THAT'S THE PROCESS INVOLVED HERE.

THIS ISN'T GOING TO STOP THAT PROCESS.

I GUESS WHAT INTERESTS ME HERE IS WHY ANYBODY THINKS THAT THIS KIND OF CHANGE, WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT KIND OF CHANGE, IS GOING TO AFFECT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO TAKE MONEY AS PART OF A BRIBE.

YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING?

THERE'S A VAST DIFFERENCE HERE BETWEEN TRYING TO CHANGE THE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE FUNDRAISER AND THE PERSON -- AND THE LEGISLATOR AND HAVING PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE MONEY.

THERE WAS NOTHING LEGAL ABOUT WHAT THEY DID, AND NONE OF THIS -- THAT'S WHAT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF.

WHAT EXACTLY WE CAN ACCOMPLISH.

THE MAIN POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS HOW HARD IT IS TO DEAL WITH CAMPAIGN FINANCE.

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INNOVATIVE WAYS TO GET AROUND THE RULES.

THESE RULES MIGHT BE BETTER, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO STOP THAT PROCESS.

>> Yunji: HOLLY, THAT'S A NICE SEGUE TO YOU.

HOW PEOPLE INNOVATE TO GET AROUND RULES.

DO THERE NEED TO BE CLEARER STANDARDS, CLEAR ENOUGH FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT TO PROSECUTE MISDEEDS IN THIS ARENA.

>> I DO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE CLARITY IN THE LAW.

THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS AS WELL AS WITH SB 555, AND THE FACT THAT IS ADDRESSES LEGISLATORS BUT DOES NOT ADDRESS OTHER CANDIDATES ALSO RUNNING FOR OFFICE, AND WHETHER THEY WOULD NEED TO BE PRECLUDED FROM CAMPAIGNING AS WELL DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT STILL NEED TO BE LOOKED AT, NEED TO BE CLARIFIED.

AS KRISTIN AND SANDY BOTH PUT IT, IT IS A START, AND WE AT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE ARE ALSO LOOKING AT WHAT WE CAN DO INTERNALLY.

I THINK IT'S BEEN ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF NOW THAT WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT CREATING OUR SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS AND PROSECUTION UNIT SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS THESE TYPES OF CASES.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAD NOT HAD THE POSITIONS AND THE FUNDING TO BE ABLE TO STAND IT UP.

WE ARE GETTING THAT HOPEFULLY THIS SESSION, AND SO WE LOOK FORWARD TO THAT, SO THAT WE CAN START REALLY TAKING AN ACTIVE ROLE IN LOOKING AT WHAT KINDS OF LAWS NEED TO BE PUT IN PLACE.

AND WHERE CLARITY MIGHT BE NEEDED IN THE LAW SO WE CAN START ADDRESSING THESE AT THE STATE LEVEL.

>> Yunji: THERE'S A QUESTION.

WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO CALL WITH YOUR QUESTION OR GET INVOLVED IN THAT FACEBOOK DISCUSSION.

NIKOS HAS A QUESTION.

HE SAYS, CAN RANK CHOICE VOTING HELP REDUCE GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION AT THE STATE AND CITY LEVELS?

AS THIS CALLER IS SUGGESTING, THERE'S ALSO BEEN DISCUSSION OF TERM LIMITS.

ARE THERE OTHER MECHANISMS THE STATE SHOULD CONSIDER?

>> RANK CHOICE VOTING IS A MECHANISM WHERE A PERSON DOESN'T PICK ONE CANDIDATE FOR ONE POSITION.

IF THERE'S MULTIPLE CANDIDATES FOR ONE POSITION, THE VOTER CAN RANK THE CANDIDATES IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE.

THAT GIVES THE VOTER MORE ABILITY TO CHOOSE THE CANDIDATES.

WE THINK THAT GIVES THE VOTERS MORE VOICE INSTEAD OF JUST PICKING SOMEBODY WHO THE VOTER THINKS IS THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS OR THINKS THIS PERSON IS GOING TO MOST LIKELY WIN SO I'M GOING TO VOTE FOR THAT PERSON.

OR GEE, THAT PERSON IS GOING TO WIN.

I'M NOT GOING TO BOTHER TO VOTE IN THIS RACE.

SO WE DO THINK THAT RANK CHOICE VOTING CAN HELP DIVERSIFY CANDIDATES, ALLOW MORE PEOPLE TO RUN, AND BRING MORE PEOPLE INTO OUR ELECTORAL SYSTEM.

SO WE DO THINK THAT RANK CHOICE VOTING CAN HELP.

>> Yunji: NEAL, WHAT ABOUT THE IDEA OF RANK CHOICE VOTING OR TERM LIMITS?

>> THERE ARE GOOD REASONS TO HAVE RANK CHOICE VOTING.

AND I'LL GET BACK TO GOOD REASONS TO HAVE TERM LIMITS.

JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE RANK CHOICE VOTING, AND WHAT IT DOES PRESUMABLY IS REDUCE PARTISANSHIP.

LET'S ASSUME IT'S A GOOD THING.

I DON'T SEE WHY IT'S NECESSARILY A GOOD THING IN REGARDS TO FIGHTING CORRUPTION.

WE CAN'T LUMP EVERYTHING WE SEE AS BAD ABOUT GOVERNMENT.

AND I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM.

PEOPLE SOMETIMES CONFUSE WHAT THEY DISAGREE WITH ABOUT GOVERNMENT OR WHAT THEY FIND WRONG ABOUT GOVERNMENT WITH SOMETHING THAT'S BEING CORRUPT.

LET ME SAY THIS ABOUT TERM LIMITS, AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, AND PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT TERM LIMITS REDUCES CORRUPTION.

THIS IS NATIONAL STUDIES, THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE IT INCREASES A BIT WHEN YOU HAVE TERM LIMITS BECAUSE YOU GET NEW PEOPLE IN THERE THAT GET TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BY THE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE AND BY THE LOBBYISTS.

SO YOU MAY NOT WANT TO BELIEVE THAT, AND YOU MAY STILL WANT TERM LIMITS, WHICH IS FINE.

BUT YOU CAN'T ASSUME THAT TERM LIMITS ARE NECESSARILY GOING TO DEAL WITH CORRUPTION.

>> Yunji: KRISTIN, WE TALKED ABOUT SOME RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WERE MADE TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT SOME RECOMMENDATION AND HOW THEY COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> WELL, I THINK I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID TONIGHT.

IN DEALING WITH THESE TOPICS, I REALLY THINK -- SANDY MADE A POINT TO CHANGE THE CULTURE.

AND HOPEFULLY VOTERS CAN MAKE AN IMPACT WITH THAT.

I ALSO THINK THAT INCREASING CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

THAT'S ALMOST A FORCEABLE WAY TO GET PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION AND TRY TO DETER THAT KIND OF CONDUCT.

SO I KNOW AS WE'D LIKE TO SEE THE CRIMINAL LAWS BOOSTED, TO MIRROR THAT MORE OF THE FEDERAL LAWS SO THAT WE CAN SEE CANDIDATES WHO ARE VIOLATING THE LAWS.

NOT ONLY BE HANDLED BY CAMPAIGN SPENDING COMMISSION BUT ALSO BEING HANDLED BY PROSECUTION TO DETER THAT CONDUCT AND MAKE IT MORE THE HAMMER SO YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CULTURE CONTINUE.

SO IT'S A FORCIBLE WAY.

BUT I THINK BEING PART OF THIS DISCUSSION, I REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS A TIME THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE WE NEED A CULTURE SHIFT ON WHO WE'RE ELECTING INTO OFFICE, AND THESE ARE THE CONSUMMATE PUBLIC SERVICE.

YOU SHOULD HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABILITY.

THE BEST THING IS HOW TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

I DON'T ME STRIP AWAY ANY DUE PROCESS OR NOTICE OR WHATEVER, BUT I THINK ALL THESE CONCEPTS, TERM LIMITS AND RANK CHOICE VOTE IS TRYING TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, NOT HAVING WHAT WE CALL POLITICAL DYNASTIES.

HAVING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE.

NOT TAKING IT FOR GRANTED.

AGAIN, I THINK IT'S A JOINT RELATIONSHIP.

WE NEED THE PEOPLE, VOTERS, TO WEIGH IN.

IT CAN'T JUST BE DONE BY SPECIALIZED AGENCIES AND LAWS AND RULES.

IT'S GOT TO BE DONE BY PEOPLE.

THEY'VE GOT TO CARE.

>> Yunji: TO FOLLOW UP, THERE IS A FEELING THAT, THIS IS THE WAY POLITICS IS IN HAWAI'I.

I'M EITHER NOT GOING TO PARTICIPATE OR I'M GOING TO ACCEPT THAT.

WHAT'S YOUR CHALLENGE TO THAT?

>> MY CHALLENGE TO THAT, IN MY OPINION, THAT WOULD BE A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS.

LOOK WHERE WE ARE NOW.

AS I TRY TO OPEN WITH COMMENTS, I'D LIKE TO SEE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY IN A POSITIVE WAY, AS A POSITIVE SHIFT, AND GET REENGAGEMENT OF OUR VOTERS TO CARE ABOUT THE COMMUNITY.

YOU HAVE THIS FEELING OF CARING, ABOUT IMPROVING YOUR COMMUNITIES, BUT VOTING IS ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL STRONGHOLDS OF IMPROVING YOUR COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK WE SOMETIMES LOSE THAT, IN PARTICULARLY IN THE TIME OF CRISIS THAT WE HAVE UNDERTAKEN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

I HOPE THIS IS AN AWAKENING TO INSPIRE PEOPLE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND VOTE.

VOTING IS A HUGE, TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE THAT MANY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE IN THE WORLD.

I THINK WE LOSE SIGHT OF THAT.

THIS IS AN ELECTION THAT HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL BE INSPIRED.

AS WE SEE MORE AND MORE INTEREST.

HOPEFULLY, IT WILL INSPIRE THEM TO VOTE.

>> Yunji: HOLLY, KRISTIN MENTIONED TOUGHER PENALTIES.

ONE OF THE MEASURE BEING CONSIDERED IN THE LEGISLATURE WOULD UPGRADE SOME PENALTIES TO A FELONY AS OPPOSED TO MISDEMEANOR.

WHAT KIND OF A DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK THAT COULD MAKE?

>> I THINK THAT COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

IT IS THE HAMMER, AS KRISTIN SAID, THAT POTENTIALLY COULD MAKE THE DIFFERENCE.

I DO AGREE WITH NEAL AS WELL THAT THIS IS REALLY JUST THE GROUNDWORK, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO STOP CORRUPTION.

IT'S NOT THE KEY TO STOPPING CORRUPTION.

THERE HAS TO BE THAT -- THE CULTURE SHIFT, AS EVERYBODY SAID, BUT ALSO AS KRISTIN HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT, THE HAMMER.

UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DOES APPEAR TO BE THE WAY THINGS NEED TO GO IN ORDER TO ADDRESS SOME OF THIS.

SOME OF THESE BILLS THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED AND SOME OF THESE CONCEPTS THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED, THEY ARE EXCELLENT STEPS, AS EVERYBODY IS SAYING, BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO -- IT'S NOT GOING TO -- IT'S NOT GOING TO HAVE CORRUPTION DISAPPEAR, RIGHT.

THERE'S JUST SO MUCH MORE THAT WILL NEED TO BE DONE.

AND EVEN STIFFER PENALTIES, ISN'T IN AND OF ITSELF, GOING TO STOP CORRUPTION.

I THINK IT'S REALLY A MATTER OF FIGURING OUT HOW DO WE GET THE VOTERS MORE ENGAGED, MORE INVOLVED.

PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY MORE ENGAGED, MORE INVOLVED.

BEING AWARE OF WHAT OUR PUBLIC SERVANTS ARE DOING, HOW THEY'RE CONDUCTING THEMSELVES.

WHETHER THEY'RE ENGAGING IN UNETHICAL PRACTICES.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO BE WILLING TO REPORT THAT SO WE CAN ADDRESS THOSE THINGS.

THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT NEED TO COME TOGETHER SO THAT WE CAN TRULY ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

>> Yunji: BRIAN ON FACEBOOK -- AND SANDY, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THIS.

HE SAYS, WE NEED CAMPAIGN SPENDING LIMITS.

ONE SET MAXIMUM AMOUNT FOR EACH CANDIDATE, OTHERWISE, MONEY ALWAYS WINS.

WOULD THAT BE POSSIBLE?

>> REALISTICALLY, NO.

[LAUGHTER] ONE WORD ANSWER, NO, BECAUSE THE COURTS HAVE DEFINED -- [INDISTINCT] YOU CANNOT LIMIT THAT.

IF YOU DON'T MIND, I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO ADDRESS WHAT EVERYONE ON THE PANEL HAS SAID ABOUT PARTICIPATION, AND THAT IS HOW YOU HOLD POWER ACCOUNTABLE, IS TO HAVE THE PUBLIC PARTICIPATE.

WE COULD ASK THE LEGISLATURE TO PASS LAWS, AND WE COULD PROPOSE ALL THESE GOOD BILLS, BUT THAT'S REALLY ASKING THE FOX TO PASS LAWS TO GUARD THE HENHOUSE.

THAT'S REALLY KIND OF A DIFFICULT PROCESS TO GO THROUGH.

WE COULD PROPOSE ALL THE GOOD BILLS, BUT ASK THEMSELVES TO PASS REALLY GOOD BILLS AND LAWS TO REIN IN THEIR OWN POWER.

AND WHO REALLY WANTS TO DO THAT?

SO IT'S REALLY UP TO THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM TO WATCH THEM AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE BEHAVING CORRECTLY.

IT'S NOT FOR THE PEOPLE TO ABDICATE THAT.

ONCE YOU CAST YOUR VOTE, OKAY, WE DON'T HAVE ANYMORE RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP THEM IN CHECK.

WE STILL HAVE TO WATCH THEM AND ENSURE THAT THEY ARE BEHAVING APPROPRIATELY AND STILL REPRESENTING THE CONSTITUENTS, PEOPLE IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER.

I KNOW THAT'S A LOT TO ASK OF EVERYONE WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, UNTIL THE CULTURE SHIFT HAPPENS, UNTIL THEY KNOW THAT THEY'RE BEING WATCHED AND GOING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.

>> Yunji: AND I SEE NEAL WITH A RAISED HAND.

LET'S GO TO YOU.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHY TRANSPARENCY, THE TRANSPARENCY PART IS THE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL.

BUT HERE'S THE CHALLENGE ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE INTERESTED.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE SEE CORRUPTION IS THEY BECOME MORE CYNICAL, AND THEY BECOME LESS WILLING TO ATTACH ANY POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION WITH THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

NOT ALWAYS, BUT YOU BACK AWAY.

SO THAT'S ONE CHALLENGE THAT YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

HERE'S ANOTHER.

THIS IS A BIG ONE.

IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE MOBILIZING, THEY NEED TO -- AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS, IN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS, YOU NEED TO GIVE THEM SOME CHOICE.

THERE ISN'T MUCH CHOICE IN TERMS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

MANY PEOPLE RUN UNOPPOSED.

FOR THE MOST PART, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS NONEXISTENT IN TERMS OF CANDIDATES IN LOTS OF DISTRICTS.

SO IT'S ONE THING TO GET PEOPLE ANGRY AND UPSET, ASSUMING YOU CAN DO THAT.

IT'S ANOTHER TO GIVE THEM SOME CHOICES THAT THEY CAN MAKE THAT MOBILIZES THIS.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS.

YOU CAN MOBILIZE IN ALL KINDS OF WAY THAT DON'T INVOLVE VOTING.

NEIGHBORHOOD GROUPS.

THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE DON'T WANT TO FORGET THAT.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW CHALLENGING IT IS TO GET PEOPLE WHO ALREADY DISTRUST GOVERNMENT, AND OUR LEVEL OF DISTRUST OF GOVERNMENT NATIONALLY IS LOWER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN.

IT'S PROBABLY A LITTLE HIGHER IN MOST STATES, BUT YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME IT.

>> Yunji: I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION, KRISTIN, TO WHAT DEAN FROM HALEIWA SAYING.

HE SAYS, IS THERE THAT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAKING A BAG OF CASH AND ACCEPTING MORE MONEY AS A CAMPAIGN DONATION FOR DOING THE SAME THING?

WHAT PROGRESS IS THERE TOWARD PUBLICALLY FUNDED POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS HAWAI'I?

TWO QUESTIONS, BUT WE SEE THINGS -- PUBLIC SEE THINGS LIKE BUNDLING WHERE A COMPANY EXECUTIVE MAY ENCOURAGE HIS OR HER EMPLOYEES TO PULL DONATIONS.

IN ONE CASE, WHERE EMPLOYEES, THEY'RE PAID BACK.

IN OTHER CASES, PEOPLE ARE ENGAGED TO DONATE.

THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY ILLEGAL BUT DOESN'T PASS THE SMELL TEST.

>> IT'S ILLEGAL.

IT IS A FELONY TO BUNDLE, TO HAVE FALSE NAME CONTRIBUTIONS.

YOU'VE SEEN MY OFFICE PURSUE THOSE AREAS.

BUT IT'S DIFFICULT.

IT DOES REQUIRE -- THERE'S ABOUT 600 COMMITTEES WITH ANYWHERE FROM ONE TO SOMETIMES FIVE PEOPLE WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF A COMMITTEE.

WE CONSIST OF A STAFF OF FIVE.

FORTUNATELY, IT'S ELECTRONIC FILING.

SO WE DO OUR BEST.

WE ARE ABLE TO REVIEW THE REPORTS AND CHECK ON THIS, AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT THAT HARD BECAUSE YOU SEE THESE MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS OCCURRING WITHIN THE STATE AND THE CITY, AND YOU CAN KIND OF CROSS-REFERENCE SOME OF THAT.

WE WILL GET SOME TIPS, EITHER ANONYMOUS OR PEOPLE WILL CALL US AND SAY THEY HEARD SOMETHING, AND WE'LL LOOK INTO IT.

IT IS ILLEGAL.

IT IS A FELONY.

WE WILL PURSUE ALL OF THOSE.

BUT I CAN SEE WHERE PEOPLE WANT PUBLIC FUNDING.

AND WE DO HAVE A PARTIAL PUBLIC FUNDING PROGRAM IN EXISTENCE.

THERE HAVE BEEN EFFORTS TO BOOST THAT.

AND WE'VE SUPPORTED THAT.

PUBLIC FUNDING IS ANOTHER VEHICLE TO CONSIDER TO DISCOURAGE PRIVATE INTEREST CONTRIBUTIONS.

AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THAT'S ALSO GOING TO DETER CORRUPTION.

THERE'S OTHER WAYS, BUT CERTAINLY, PUBLIC FUNDING IS A WAY TO LIMIT PRIVATE INTEREST MONEY, BUT IT IS A TREMENDOUS RESOURCE.

IT IS DOLLARS FROM THE STATE THAT HAS TO BE FUNDED TO GO TO ELECTIONS, AND WHAT WE HEAR FROM PEOPLE IS THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MONEY FROM LET'S SAY THE GENERAL FUNDS GOING TO FUND A CANDIDATE WHO IS NOT IN THEIR DISTRICT OR IS A CANDIDATE THAT THEY DON'T SUPPORT THEIR VALUES.

SO THAT CONCEPTUALLY IS ANOTHER MOUNTAIN TO GET PAST, BUT THE IDEA OF PUBLIC FUNDING IS AN IMPORTANT ONE, AND I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY SEE SOME IDEAS SURFACE FROM THE SPECIAL COMMISSION ON PUBLIC FUNDING, FOR SURE.

>> Yunji: SO I WANTED TO BE CLEAR.

PAYING BACK YOUR EMPLOYEES AFTER THEY'VE DONATED TO YOUR CANDIDATE OF CHOICE IS ILLEGAL.

PERHAPS YOU HAVE PRESSURE PUT ON PEOPLE OR YOU HAVE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY DONATE.

IT FEELS LIKE THERE ARE WHAT ARE PERCEIVED AS GRAY AREAS.

PEOPLE ARE MAYBE GETTING AWAY WITH IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S ALWAYS SOME GRAY AREAS.

>> Yunji: HOW DO WE ROOT THAT OUT?

>> USUALLY IT'S A TIP OR A WHISTLEBLOWER OR SOMETHING.

YOU'RE RIGHT.

IT'S A DIFFICULT PROCESS FOR CAMPAIGN SPENDING TO NAVIGATE WITHOUT KNOWING THE INTRICACIES OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION.

>> Yunji: HOLLY, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THIS ONE FROM BOB FROM WAIKIKI.

THE VIEWER WANTS PANEL TO DISCUSS INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY IN REGARDS TO PREVENTING CORRUPTION BY DOING TRAINING.

SELF-REFLECT ON HOW THEY CAN CHANGE THE CULTURES.

ONE MEASURES WOULD REQUIRE TRAINING, ETHICS TRAINING EVERY FOUR YEARS FOR LAWMAKERS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> I DON'T THINK IN AND OF ITSELF IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I CERTAINLY THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS HELPFUL.

MYSELF, I HAVE DONE ETHICS TRAINING A NUMBER OF TIMES.

SINCE BEING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF ATTORNEY GENERAL, I THINK THE ETHICS TRAINING THAT OUR ETHICS COMMISSION DOES IS EXCELLENT, BUT IT IS -- THAT'S ALL IT IS, A TRAINING.

DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL TAKES AWAY FROM THAT, BUT THERE'S THE TRAINING, AND THERE'S THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE TRAINING BY THE INDIVIDUAL.

IT BECOME THE INDIVIDUAL'S RESPONSIBILITY TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TRAINED ON, WHAT THEY'RE ENGAGING IN, WHETHER THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

WHETHER THERE IS ETHICS ISSUES WITH THAT.

SO THE TRAINING DEFINITELY IS A GOOD THING, BUT I DON'T SEE IT AS BEING SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO STOP OR PREVENT CORRUPTION.

>> Yunji: RIGHT.

CLEARLY WITH THE CASE OF SENATOR ENGLISH AND TY CULLEN, NO AMOUNT OF TRAINING -- THEY CLEARLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING IS WRONG.

SANDY, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TRAINING MEASURES?

>> LIKE WITH A LOT OF MEASURES BEING PROPOSED, WE THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA.

IT'S A GOOD START WITH THE TRAINING BILL HB 1475, IT'S ONCE EVERY FOUR YEARS.

WE THINK TRAINING SHOULD BE EVERY YEAR.

WE WOULD LIKE IT TO BE EVERY YEAR.

IT'S ONE OF THE AMENDMENTS WE PROPOSED BECAUSE WE WANTED TO SHIFT THE CULTURE.

IF IT WAS EVERY YEAR, IT WOULD GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT ETHICS IS IMPORTANT.

EVERYONE GETS TRAINED EVERY YEAR.

THERE ARE NEW ETHICS RULES THAT COULD BE PROPOSED AND ADOPTED ON A YEARLY BASIS, SO WHY TRAIN EVERY FOUR YEARS WHEN THERE COULD BE NEW RULES IN PLACE?

>> Yunji: I SEE YOU RAISING YOUR HAND, NEAL.

LET'S GO TO ZOOM.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S AN ANALOGY THAT HELPS UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH ETHICS.

WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT HOW SEXUAL HARASSMENT WORKSHOPS WORK AND HOW WORKPLACE HARASSMENT WORKSHOPS WORKS.

A LOT OF US HAVE GONE THROUGH THOSE THINGS, AND THEY CAN BE REAL YAWNERS.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST WHAT HAPPENS IN THE GROUP.

THE WAY THEY'RE EFFECTIVE IS IF THE ORGANIZATION, ESPECIALLY THE LEADERS, EMPHASIZE AND REINFORCE THE ETHICS THAT THEY'RE LEARNING THERE.

YOU'RE SAYING, IF YOU WANT ETHICS EDUCATION TO WORK FOR LEGISLATORS, YOU WOULD HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP TAKES THAT SERIOUSLY.

RIGHT NOW, I'M SKEPTICAL THAT THEY DO.

I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG, BUT THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IS GOING TO HAVE LEGS.

>> Yunji: I WANT YOU TO TALK TO TIM IN KAIMUKI.

HE SAYS, VIEWERS SUGGEST CREATING A HOTLINE AND GIVING THEM UP LIMITED SUBPOENA POWERS.

YOU DID MENTION TIPS COMING IN.

IF SOMEBODY DOES SUSPECT SOMETHING ILLEGAL IS GOING ON, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST THEY DO?

HOW CAN THEY GET IN TOUCH WITH YOUR OFFICE?

FIVE PEOPLE IS NOT A LOT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE STILL WELCOME IT.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE'RE GOING TO REAP THIS OUT.

I THINK ETHICS DOES HAVE A HOTLINE WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, THAT WITH THEIR SPECIAL UNIT.

SO THERE IS A HOTLINE ALREADY IN EXISTENCE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

ETHICS, UNLIKE CAMPAIGN SPENDING, HAS CONFIDENTIALITY RULES.

NOT THAT WE DON'T, BUT WE'RE NOT AS STRICT.

AND CAMPAIGN SPENDING, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT WE DO, WE'RE FOLLOWING THE MONEY.

WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT YOUR REPORT AND LOOK AT YOUR BANK STATEMENTS AND CHECKS AND MAKE SOME INQUIRIES.

I WOULD LIKE A LAW THAT SAYS, IF WE ASK YOU QUESTIONS AND YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER US OR YOU LIE TO US, THAT IN AND OF ITSELF IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PURSUE.

RIGHT NOW WE DON'T HAVE THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT I THINK THE SPECIAL UNIT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE IS SHORING UP WOULD BE AGAIN ANOTHER START IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION FOR THE PUBLIC TO HAVE A HOTLINE BECAUSE AGAIN, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THE SENTIMENT OF THE DISCOURAGING TIMES WE'RE IN AND THE DISTRESS.

BUT WE HAVE TO START FROM SOMEWHERE.

HOPEFULLY, WE CAN LAUNCH PEOPLE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION OR REJUVENATE THEIR INTEREST.

START SOMEWHERE BECAUSE IF YOU ACCEPT THIS LEVEL OF DISTRUST, I THINK THAT'S THE MOST -- THE SADDEST STATE OF AFFAIRS.

IT MAKES OUR JOBS MEANINGLESS.

>> Yunji: IF SOMEBODY DOES SEE SOMETHING, HOW DO THEY GET IN TOUCH?

WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

>> AS KRISTIN STATED, WE HAVE A PROGRAM.

WE PARTNERED WITH THE STATE ETHICS COMMISSION.

THERE'S A HOTLINE.

THERE IS AN E-MAIL.

THERE IS A SITE FOR THEM TO GO TO AND REPORT THIS.

WE WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH THE STATE ETHICS COMMISSION ON REPORTS THAT COME IN AND MAKE DETERMINATIONS AS TO WHETHER STATE ETHICS COMMISSION WILL HANDLE IT OR WHETHER THEY WILL REFER IT TO US FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

SO THERE IS A MECHANISM AT THIS POINT, AND PEOPLE ARE WELCOME TO USE IT.

WE WELCOME THEM TO USE IT.

WE ENCOURAGE THEM TO USE IT.

THAT IS REALLY ONE OF THE BEST WAYS, I THINK, FOR US TO BECOME AWARE OF WHAT IS GOING ON OUT THERE AND FOR US TO LOOK AT THESE INCIDENTS THAT ARE OCCURRING AND BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS THEM.

>> Yunji: LAUREN HAS A COMMENT.

SANDY, I'D LIKE YOU TO REACT.

SHE SAYS, LOOK AT THE LEGAL DONATIONS CONNECTED TO GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

IT'S CRAZY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT HAVING PEOPLE -- THE RESPONSIBILITY NOT ENDING AT THE BALLOT BOX.

WE NEED TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE THROUGHOUT THEIR TERM.

THIS IS ONE AREA WHERE PEOPLE GET REALLY FRUSTRATED.

HOW DO WE TURN THAT FRUSTRATION INTO HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE, LIKE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?

>> SO IN TERMS ACCEPTING DONATIONS, I SAY CALL YOUR LEGISLATOR AND SAY, I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT YOU ACCEPTED ALL THESE DONATIONS.

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO NOT REPRESENT SPECIAL INTERESTS.

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT YOUR CONSTITUENTS.

HOW ARE YOU REPRESENTING YOUR CONSTITUENTS.

I WANT TO SEE PROOF.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD DEFINITELY BE DONE.

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO CONTACT YOUR LEGISLATOR, WHETHER IT'S YOUR SENATOR OR YOUR REPRESENTATIVE OR YOUR COUNCILMEMBER.

CALL THEM.

MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH THEM, WHETHER IT'S IN-PERSON OR ON ZOOM, WHETHER IT'S OUT IN THE COMMUNITY.

TELL THEM.

TELL THEM.

YOU WANT THEM TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU AND NOT THE SPECIAL INTEREST THAT'S DONATING.

>> Yunji: NEAL, THIS IS A GOOD ONE FOR YOU.

YOU DID BRING OUT ISSUE OF ONE PARTY DOMINANCE IN OUR STATE, WHICH IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND NANI ON KAUA'I SAYS, WHAT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE POLITICAL PARTIES TO HOLD MEMBERS WHO COMMITTED TRANSGRESSIONS ACCOUNTABLE?

IN THE CASE OF KALANI ENGLISH AND TY CULLEN, THAT'S SWIFT OUT OF A JOB AND FACING FEDERAL CONSEQUENCES.

WHAT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PARTY TO MAKE SURE MEMBERS ARE BEHAVING ETHICALLY?

>> WHEN YOU SAY "PARTIES," IT'S A PRETTY AMBIGUOUS KIND OF TERM.

IT'S A COLLECTION OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE, FOR THE MOST PART, ANY DIRECT CONTROL OVER PEOPLE.

YOU CAN CENSURE OAHU DEMOCRATIC PARTY OR WHATEVER PARTY.

COULD POSSIBLY CENSURE A CANDIDATE FOR CORRUPTION, BUT THEY CAN'T STOP HIM OR HER FROM RUNNING.

WHAT PARTIES CAN DO IS TRY TO FIND GOOD CANDIDATES THAT WON'T DO THIS.

THIS IS NOT A RESPONSIBILITY THAT YOU CAN EXPECT MUCH FROM THE POLITICAL PARTIES BECAUSE WHATEVER THEIR POSITION IS, THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH CONTROL OVER IT.

THE PERSON WHO RUNS AS A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN IS NOT REALLY RESPONSIBLE TO THE PARTY AS AN ORGANIZATION.

>> Yunji: HOLLY, A QUESTION FROM RAYMOND.

WHEN SENATOR ENGLISH AND REPRESENTATIVE CULLEN WAS CHARGED WITH CORRUPTION, THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR GIVING THE BRIBE WAS SAID TO HAVE MADE SIMILAR BRIBES OVER THE YEARS TO OTHER LAWMAKERS.

WERE THESE OTHER OFFICIALS OR LAWMAKERS EVER PROSECUTED FOR PUBLIC CORRUPTION?

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PERSON GIVING THE MONEY?

>> SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER OTHERS HAVE BEEN INDICTED FOR CORRUPTION FOR THOSE PARTICULAR INSTANCES.

IT APPEARS THERE IS AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION CONTINUING.

IT IS A FEDERAL INVESTIGATION AT THIS POINT, AND SO WE ARE UNABLE TO TALK ABOUT ONGOING INVESTIGATIONS.

>> Yunji: THIS IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT.

SANDY AND THE WHOLE PANEL.

LET'S START WITH YOU.

INCREASE THE PAY FOR ELECTED OFFICIAL AND PROHIBIT OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT.

SO MANY ARE EMPLOYED BY LARGE CORPORATIONS, AND ALL THEY DO IS PROTECT THEIR EMPLOYER.

THIS IS CORRUPTION AT ANOTHER LEVEL.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT SUPPORTING A BILL THAT PROHIBITS OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT FOR LEGISLATORS?

IN THE LAWMAKERS' DEFENSE, THEY ARE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION.

THIS IS A PART-TIME JOB, AND THEY HAVE TO MAKE A LIVING OTHERWISE.

SHOULD THIS BE MADE PERHAPS AN EXPANDED ROLE?

SHOULD WE LOOK AT EMPLOYING THEM FOR A FULL YEAR, RAISING PAY AND ATTRACTING MORE QUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS?

>> THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED.

OUR HAWAI'I STATE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES A 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION SO IT COULD BE THAT WE AMEND OUR STATE CONSTITUTION SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED.

I BELIEVE THERE WAS A BILL THAT WAS INTRODUCED THIS SESSION TO ACTUALLY HAVE A YEAR ROUND LEGISLATIVE SESSION LIKE THE COUNTY COUNCILS.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS DISCUSSED, BUT I DO REMEMBER A SESSION OR TWO AGO, THERE WAS A BILL OR PROPOSAL TO RAISE LEGISLATORS' PAY.

THAT WAS VERY, VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

NO ONE WANTED TO RAISE PEOPLE'S PAYS BECAUSE WHAT DO THEY DO?

THAT WAS THE ARGUMENT AGAINST RAISING THE PAY.

I THINK THERE'S TWO THOUGHTS AS TO THE MATTER.

SHOULD THEY BE WORKING FULL-TIME?

IF THEY'RE JUST GOING TO BE PASSING RIDICULOUS LAWS, AS SOME PEOPLE PUT IT.

DO THEY DESERVE TO BE PAID MORE IF THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE DOING ANYTHING WORTHWHILE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AS SOME PEOPLE PUT IS IT?

IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S DEBATED OFTEN.

>> Yunji: KRISTIN, I'M INTERESTED IN THIS LINE BETWEEN LAWMAKERS AND EMPLOYERS.

CAN AN EMPLOYER -- IF I'M WORKING FOR A LAW FIRM SIX MONTHS, CAN THEY DONATE TO MY CAMPAIGN, AND HOW DO I MAKE SURE THAT MONEY DOES NOT INFLUENCE WHAT I DO?

>> AS FAR AS CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAW, AS LONG AS IT'S WITHIN THE CONTRIBUTION LIMITS, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, BUT THERE'S THE ETHICS COMPONENT.

BUT CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

AN AREA THAT THE SPECIAL COMMISSION IS LOOKING AT HAS TO DO WITH CONFLICTS OF INTEREST.

WE HAVE LOOKED AT AND SEEN AND FORTUNATE SOME MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC HAVE SHOWN US, THE SPECIAL COMMISSION, SOME OF THE LEGISLATIVE RULES OF CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND CAN THEY BE IMPROVED?

OF COURSE.

>> Yunji: DURING FLOOR SESSIONS WE OFTEN SEE WHEN THEY ARE VOTING ON AN ISSUE, A LEGISLATOR WILL STAND UP AND SAY, I HAVE A CONFLICT.

MY PRIVATE COMPANY HAS WORKED AROUND THIS ISSUE, BUT I PERSONALLY MAY NOT HAVE WORKED ON THIS ISSUE.

THE SPEAKER WILL SAY, NO CONFLICT, AND IT'S AN AUTOMATIC NO CONFLICT WAIVER.

SO THAT HAS DRAWN A LOT OF CONCERNS AT TIMES FROM THE PUBLIC.

THAT MAY BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT.

WHY IS IT AUTOMATICALLY DECLARED NO CONFLICT?

WHY ISN'T MORE INFORMATION SUBMITTED AS TO THE EXACT NATURE OF A POSSIBLE CONFLICT?

>> Yunji: NEAL, GOING BACK FROM THE CALLER FROM MAKAHA'S COMMENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT INCREASING PAY FOR OFFICIALS AND PROHIBITING OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE MAIN REASON IT'S A NONSTARTER, IS PEOPLE HAVE A TREMENDOUS BIAS AGAINST PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS.

ONE OF THE REASONS THEY DON'T WANT TO GIVE POLITICIANS A RAISE IS THAT THEY THINK IT'S NOT A JOB YOU SHOULD KEEP.

NOT A JOB YOU SHOULD SEE AS PROFESSIONAL.

THAT'S ABOVE AND BEYOND THE QUESTION OF HOW COMPETENT THEY ARE.

IT'S VERY HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO SAY THAT GROUP, NOT BECAUSE -- AGAIN NOT BECAUSE WHO'S IN IT.

THE NATURE OF POLITICS, PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PROFESSIONALIZE IT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE IT THAT WAY.

IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO DO.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU WOULD HAVE TO PAY THEM TO MAKE IT UP FOR SOMEONE WHO'S WORKING AS A PARTNER IN A LAW FIRM, EVEN IF IT'S PART-TIME.

YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE THAT.

THE MAIN THING IS PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO SEE POLITICIANS AS SOME KIND OF PROFESSIONAL GROUP.

IT'S ALIEN TO THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

>> Yunji: I WANT TO GET TO MILES IN HAWAI'I KAI.

KRISTIN, THIS ONE'S FOR YOU.

WHAT ROLE DOES EXPANDING THE AMOUNT OF PERSONNEL AT THE ETHICS COMMISSION IMPACT THE PROBLEMS YOU'RE FACING WITH CORRUPTION?

YOU TALKED ABOUT IN YOUR OWN BODY, HAVING FIVE PEOPLE HAVING TO HANDLE ALL THESE WORK?

DO WE NEED TO STAFF UP THESE AGENCIES BETTER TO HAVE BETTER RESULTS?

>> POSSIBLY.

PARTICULARLY AS LAWS ARE EXPANDED, RULES ARE EXPANDED OR INCREASED.

FOR NOW WE DO THE BEST WE CAN.

AND THOSE ARE OUR LIMITED RESOURCES.

WHILE THERE ARE POTENTIALLY SOLUTIONS OUT THERE, THERE'S ALWAYS A COST TO IT, BUT I WILL SAY WHEN WE HAVE REVIEWED BILLS WITH SOME TYPES OF -- IN CERTAIN AREAS, THE LEGISLATURE HAS ALWAYS ASKED WHAT THE RESOURCE IS, AND WE HAVE RESPONDED.

AN EXAMPLE, IF WE WERE TO GO TO FULL PUBLIC FUNDING, THAT WOULD BE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY.

THAT WOULD REQUIRE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF STAFF TIME.

SO THERE ARE 128 SEATS THAT IF EACH PERSON OR EACH CANDIDATE, 128 MULTIPLIED BY TWO, THREE, FOUR, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE RUNNING.

IF WE MAKE THAT FULL PUBLIC FUNDING, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY AND STAFF HOURS.

THAT WE WOULD REQUIRE.

SO WE TRY, IN LIGHT OF THE ECONOMY, IN LIGHT OF STAFFING ISSUES, WE TRY TO BE REASONABLE WITH IT AND WORKING WITHIN OUR MEANS.

I'M VERY LUCKY.

I HAVE A GREAT GROUP OF STAFF, THAT WE WORK AS A TEAM, AND WE PUT IN EXTRA HOURS.

THE 2020 ELECTION WAS UNUSUAL.

WE PROCESSED IT, AND WE'RE ABOUT TO DO IT AGAIN IN 2022.

SO WE'LL MAKE DO WITH OUR RESOURCES.

BUT, YES, IF PROGRAMS INCREASE, WE WILL NEED TO INCREASE.

>> Yunji: NEAL, I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO JOAN IN MAKIKI.

ONE WAY TO FIGHT GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION IS TO TREAT THEM AS IF THEY'RE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

HOUSE REPRESENTATIVE SHARON HAR'S DUI CASE GETTING DROPPED IS NOT A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

WE HAVE THE ENTIRE LEGISLATURE IS UP FOR GRABS.

EVERYBODY IS BASICALLY UP FOR VOTE, ALONG WITH GOVERNOR AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR AND RACES ON DOWN.

YOU MADE MENTION THAT PEOPLE BEING FRUSTRATED WITH THE PROCESS, ACTUALLY TURNS THE OFF FROM VOTING.

DO YOU THINK THERE WOULD BE MORE VOTER ENGAGEMENT WHEN PEOPLE SEE THINGS LIKE THE SHARON HAR CASE.

THIS PERSON IN PARTICULAR HAS AN ISSUE WITH THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED.

>> THE PERSON WHO ENDS UP RUNNING AGAIN SHARON HAR HOPES THAT'S THE CASE.

I DON'T THINK IN THE LONG HAUL IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

THERE ARE TWO THINGS, AND I MENTIONED THIS BEFORE.

EVERYTHING BAD IS NOT CORRUPTION.

WHAT THE LEGISLATURE DID WITH HER, AS FAR AS WHATEVER THEY'RE GOING TO DO OR NOT GOING TO DO DECIDE TO DO, IS WITHIN THEIR RULES.

THEY DIDN'T ACT OUTSIDE OF THE RULES.

WHAT SHE FACED IN COURT WAS THE FACT THAT SHE WAS INNOCENT.

I SAY THAT TO GET PEOPLE TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETIMES IT CERTAINLY MAKES SENSE TO TRY CHANGE BAD BEHAVIOR.

FOR MYSELF, I WOULD FOR MYSELF SAY WHAT SHE DID WAS BAD BEHAVER.

DON'T LUMP EVERYTHING IN A GROUP OF CORRUPTION.

YOU FORGET MAYBE IT'S BAD STUFF THAT MAY BE WAS LEGAL THAT WASN'T TAKEN CARE OF AND YOU CAN FIGHT FOR THAT.

>> Yunji: WE HAVE ABOUT FIVE MINUTES LEFT.

I'M TOLD FOUR MINUTES NOW.

I WANT TO MAKE SURE I GET TO EVERYBODY.

HOLLY, HOW DO WE REBUILD CONFIDENCE IN THIS PROCESS?

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE PRETTY FED UP.

>> YES.

I THINK REBUILDING CONFIDENCE WILL COME THROUGH STIFFER PENALTIES, MORE PRECISE LAWS, MORE CLARITY IN THE LAWS.

I AM LOOKING FOR OUR DEPARTMENT TO BE A PART OF THAT.

WE'RE HAVING OUR UNITS THAT ARE GOING TO BE STOOD UP ON FRAUD CORRUPTION, AND WE'RE LOOKING TO WORK ON IDENTIFYING AREA OF LAW THAT NEED TO BE BEEFED UP SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS THESE SITUATIONS.

>> Yunji: AND HOLLY -- KRISTIN, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH HOLLY.

WE COULD BUILD THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE WORLD AND REFORM IT, BUT I THINK IT'S THE CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

IT'S NOT -- MAYBE HIGH FINES.

MAYBE JAIL.

SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITH PUNCH TO IT MIGHT START INFLUENCING HOW THINGS ARE DONE IN THE STATE AND CITY, AND HOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO VOTE.

>> Yunji: NEAL, WE TALKED ABOUT CULTURE.

HOW DO YOU THINK WE CHANGE THAT?

>> I THINK SANDY POINTED OUT, YOU'RE RELYING ON LEGISLATURE TO HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THE WORK.

THAT'S LOGICAL, BUT IT HAS LIMITS.

AND THAT'S WHY I THINK PART OF THIS ISSUE OF CHANGING THE CULTURE, TWO THINGS.

ONE IS INTERNAL.

ONE, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW HARD IT IS TO DO THAT.

AND HOW MUCH PEOPLE ARE TIED INTO THE WAY THAT THEY BEHAVE THEMSELVES.

IT WOULD BE A LOT EASIER DEAL WITH IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OUT AND OUT CORRUPTION AND BRIBERY.

BUT THE ONLY THING I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND HERE, THAT IN ORDER TO BEGIN TO BUILD CONFIDENCE, THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO ASK PEOPLE TO DO IS BE VIGILANT.

BECAUSE NOT STARTING WITH THE NOTION THAT JUST BECAUSE FOLKS ARE EXCITED ABOUT DEALING WITH CORRUPTION RIGHT NOW, THAT IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN.

BECAUSE, FRANKLY, THAT'S NOT HOW POLITICS IN HAWAI'I WORKS.

IT'S A CRISIS RIGHT NOW, BUT JUST -- IN QUOTES, BUT JUST BECAUSE IT'S A CRISIS DOESN'T MEAN IT GETS TAKEN CARE OF.

THIS HAS BEEN A LONG-TERM ISSUE.

IF YOU WANT TO SEE THIS AS A WATERSHED, FINE.

BUT KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN.

NOT JUST WHAT THE LEGISLATURE DOES NOW, BUT WHETHER THEY TAKE SERIOUSLY WHAT DOWN THE ROAD THE COMMISSION IS GOING TO SAY BECAUSE THE HISTORY OF COMMISSIONS GENERALLY, NO MATTER HOW SMART THEY ARE, IS THEY GET IGNORED.

THEY'RE USED TO SHOW SOMETHING IMPORTANT IS GOING TO GET DONE AND IT DOESN'T GET DONE.

NOW DOES THAT FOUND FAMILIAR ABOUT POLITICS IN HAWAI'I?

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I'M SAYING IT HAPPENS A LOT.

YOU CAN'T ASSUME THAT YOUR ANGER IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THIS.

>> Yunji: SANDY, IN THE LAST 30 SECONDS, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE SUNSHINE.

SUNSHINE IS A DISINFECTANT ON A LOT OF ILLS, AND THAT INCLUDE THE INSIDER DEALING AT THE LEGISLATURE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE SHINE A SPOTLIGHT AT WHAT'S GOING ON.

WITH SHOWS LIKE THIS, WHERE THE MEDIA, KEEP AN EYE ON WHAT'S GOING ON AND MAKE SURE THE PUBLIC UNDERSTANDS AND IS MADE AWARE AND CONTINUE TO BE INTERESTED AND KEEP POWER ACCOUNTABLE.

>> Yunji: BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF QUESTIONS YOU ALL SENT OUR WAY, WE KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST.

MAHALO FOR JOINING US.

AND WE THANK OUR GUESTS -- SANDY MA, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMON CAUSE HAWAI'I HOLLY SHIKADA, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF HAWAI'I KRISTIN IZUMI-NITAO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE HAWAI'I CAMPAIGN SPENDING COMMISSION AND POLITICAL OBSERVER, NEAL MILNER.

>>> NEXT WEEK ON INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I: THE CITY AND COUNTY OF HONOLULU HAS A DEADLINE TO CHOOSE A NEW SITE FOR A LANDFILL...DECEMBER 31 OF THIS YEAR.

THE LANDFILL ADVISORY COMMITTEE HAS VOTED AGAINST ALL OF THE PROPOSED SITES BECAUSE OF RISKS TO O'AHU'S DRINKING WATER.

CAN THE CITY FIND A SAFE NEW LOCATION BY THE END OF THE YEAR?

PLEASE DO JOIN US FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

I'M YUNJI DE NIES FOR INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I.

ALOHA!