,good evening and welcome to LIFE Ahead here on PBS Fort Wayne.

>> I'm Sandy Thomson the host of the show but the star is my guest tonight and the topic well when is it time to maybe start looking at nursing homes or assisted care for a loved one and what does that have to do with the other family members that might be helping to make that decision?

Obviously during the holiday seasons, any of the holidays during the year might be a time when a lot of you are seeing a family member that has begun to show some signs of mental or or physical decline and you start to get concerned about it and and attorneys begin to get more phone calls about this time after the holiday when you see this family member and they get a lot of questions like what can we do?

Is it time for us to as a group, as a family start to make some decisions for life changes?

Please meet Troicki for this evening here with us on LIFE Ahead.

>> Attorney so nice to have you back.

This isn't the first your first round with us here on LIFE Ahead.

>> It is so wonderful to be back with you.

It's always a pleasure and you always have such good information to share.

Obviously you have to deal with this a lot as especially an elder law attorney people calling you or wanting to make appointments and start to think about a different life , a different life of residence if you will.

>> I'm using that term loosely here for a loved one.

What happens when that occurs like after a holiday when you've seen somebody declining who takes the first step and why?

>> Yeah, and if you talk to attorneys who work in this area of the law, it is very common to have an uptick in telephone calls and meetings after the holidays because as you said, people are away from loved ones and they get back together and they realize that, you know, that loved one is just not quite as sharp as they used to be and it raises concerns and so we do start to get people asking questions on when is it time?

>> Yeah.

To start the big question when is it time?

>> And you know, as we've said after gathering's holiday gatherings or whatever reunions or some sort of a family group because if you don't live close to them and you maybe only see them once a year or once every two years and their family members that live right here close to them, it's such a gradual process they may not really be aware of how much of a difference that is.

>> Yes, that that's exactly right and sometimes it takes that distance in order to make people realize well, this isn't how they were six months ago or a year ago.

>> What are some of the signs Troyes that people mention that they think that there's a concern?

>> Well, a lot of things that stick out where your family members start to question would be if the family member repeats themself if they have memory loss or they're not quite attached to the current time and place.

>> We've had instances where grown retired women start to say they want to go home when that's been their home for the last forty or fifty years.

>> Really?

Yeah.

Or they lose interest in hobbies that they've been interested in before.

>> They show a general decline in hygiene.

They aren't quite able to take care of themselves.

They seem confused all those who are just you know they're forgetful.

Yeah.

>> Would these be typical signs of say something within the dementia category?

>> Oh absolutely OK. And that's really where people's concerns are so they may start to lose words and say would you hand me that?

And they can't think of the word cup and they'll say You give me that white thing or you know that thing where my coffee is in or whatever.

>> Right.

And and you know, we all have those moments where where you lose.

>> Yeah.

Just from time to time.

Yeah.

But it's where you start to see a lot of these things in a short period of time just because there's one of these incidents doesn't necessarily mean the person has dementia.

>> Right but they add up they add over time do they tend to talk more about times long ago and storytelling or what's going on with them rather than a very recent activity?

>> Well, and that is one of the yes.

And that's one of the things that and I'm not a doctor but as I work with folks that is a common story that you hear is that they remember things in the past very well.

Yeah, but it's what happened yesterday or this morning that it just doesn't stick.

>> But one of the things that I have heard attorneys and doctors talk about in terms of whether somebody is declining is whether or not they're able to do a daily task.

>> How would you define daily task or a person's ability to do those things?

>> Yeah, that's one of the things that are used by a number of people, a number of government organizations by physicians to determine a level of incapacity or a level of dementia and that's whether or not the person can complete tasks of daily living there.

>> Well, people have different ways of living but in general or what do you say things that they normally would do?

>> Yeah, just very basic things that they need to do to take care of themselves.

So fixing meals.

Yeah, being able to dress themselves.

Being able to I mentioned hygiene, being able to take showers on their own and whether it be mental or physical limitations that they've acquired it's what's looked at to determine well if there are a certain number of tasks of daily living if they can't complete then perhaps they need a higher level of care.

>> I heard one of the things that concerns that family members too and this can be pretty serious if they get mixed up on their medications, either forget to take them or take them twice.

You take it take two days at once and it gets confusing for them.

>> Oh, that's that's a great example because in our own lives we we know people who are on a number of medications that do different things and they have to be taken in the exact order and if you know that's easy for people who don't have limitations right.

To get mixed.

>> So yeah, I mean just an ordinary person.

I'm an ordinary person and I find that I have to leave myself more Post-it notes than I used to just you know, to keep me on track of what I'm supposed to do.

>> But it could get more serious.

Absolutely out.

>> Yeah.

What would be a legal definition Troyes of incapacity if we're using a term incapacity in terms of somebody needing some extra help or a different form of living and again we're talkin General here whether it's dementia or even a physical issue or maybe that's just a temporary problem after a major surgery or something, what would you say is incapacity in terms of a legal yeah, of course the law needs some definition of what is sure incapacity or not primarily dealing with guardianships.

OK, if the person legally needs some so the definition of capacity is that because of their mental state because maybe they have dementia because maybe they have some other condition or disability that they aren't able to take care of themselves and they aren't able to manage their property.

Oh well that's a whole big thing too.

>> We've talked about daily living but to manage their property, their assets, you know, to remember to pay all the household bills exactly.

>> To pay bills, pay property taxes.

Yeah.

Unfortunately people aren't able to properly evaluate their their situation they may be taking advantage of and that's a big elder abuse is a huge issue.

>> How does that play into what you do as an attorney?

>> Try if if somebody comes in a family member comes in and they say you know, I'm not so sure about my my mom or my grandma or whatever, I think that she made a new role will recently.

But I think that she was affected or influenced by whatever a nurse or a cousin or a neighbor or whatever.

Does that happen often?

>> What do you do about it?

Well, it happens more than we would like.

Yeah.

And so we always have to be on guard and kind of look out for that.

And as attorneys we have an ethical responsibility to do what's in the person's best interest.

Sure.

And if there's some indication that they've been influenced we need to follow up on that.

>> But how do you do that?

I'm curious how do you find out if this is the truth or that person's perspective?

>> Well, a couple of different ways.

>> We look at the way we sit down and talk to the person, OK, And you evaluate sort of yes.

>> And even though obviously we're not physicians.

Yeah.

Just in talking with someone we can usually get a pretty good idea.

Yeah.

We they demonstrate a lot of the things that we talked about earlier repetition not being able to recall names but if they know we're basically looking if they know what they own and who's supposed to get what they own after they pass away and why.

>> So we want to look at those things if they can answer those questions, yeah, then they're probably OK.

But if not, then we look at the situation surrounding the signing of these new documents sometimes a child will fly in from out of state, take mom to an attorney and all of a sudden all of a sudden they will and they they were going to inherit a whole lot.

>> Yeah.

And those yeah.

Those take special attention.

>> So we want to we look at those particularly well I know and you attorneys have always endorsed and talked about making sure you have a power of attorney and health care representative.

Let's talk about those define each of those and then Guardian when is it time to look at a guardianship?

>> Mm hmm.

Well, the power of attorney and appointment of health care representative are twins of each other and they address the same thing just in different areas of a person's life .

>> So if a person becomes incapacitated and cannot make their own decisions or pay their own bills and run their bills.

Yeah, everything from dementia all the way to there in the hospital.

Yeah.

And they just cannot take care of things.

>> You can appoint someone that you trust to make those decisions and take those actions for you both financially and health care wise and medically make those decisions in the hospital perhaps even no absolute guidance from the medical staff.

>> Yeah, the appointment of a health care representative covers everything from whether the person receives an aspirin all the way through end of life decisions.

>> I see.

Well, can you point those positions while you are hospitalized or if you are in a nursing home if you haven't done so yet, you certainly can as long as you have that capacity.

>> OK, and you know clearly clearly that you and I.

>> Right.

Yeah.

Who and why who why that person is important in your life , OK to make those decisions and what their qualifications perhaps are I do want to remind you all that this is your show really.

I mean we're the one sitting here at PBS but you viewers are the ones that we really want to talk to and if you have any questions about the topic we're talking about tonight here in terms of legal answers that you might be curious about, please give us a call here (969) 27 twenty and I'm sure Troy will be very glad to answer any of your questions if you want to talk to us live on the air, that's great because if Troy has a question back, you're right there on the phone if you're not comfortable with that, we do have a phone operator in the control room that will take your question and type it up and send it out to me here in the studio on the teleprompter and I'll read it to you, Troy.

>> Those are the rules of the show.

Pretty simple.

>> OK, let's talk about it.

We've talked about the definition of incapacity.

>> When does a family member or how do they come to you as an attorney and say I think my mom or my uncle is incapacitated?

>> You say you get a lot of calls right after a holiday or a gathering or whatever who comes to see you and what do they need to bring or have proof to tell you?

>> Well, the first thing to know is when a family member suspects that there's an incapacity or there's dementia that you want to make sure that first of all the person is safe, that you know they're properly supervised.

If you think that there are some issues because you don't want something to happen, why you're just trying to figure out what's going on through the next thing would be to try and get them to see their doctor.

>> That's very important like their regular family physician ,your specialist.

>> I would I would start there if you get them to voluntarily see their their general practitioner who will most likely then refer them for an evaluation by a neurologist or something.

Exactly.

OK, and that gives you evidence if you will they help you as an attorney help them?

>> That's exactly right because the court before appointing a guardian need something to say some evidence to say yes, the person has diminished capacity and they do need some help for a guardianship.

>> Uh huh.

OK, well James just called and he's coming in.

We're getting a question here in just a moment.

I'll have that for you, Troy.

But before I get James question, what if the family members don't agree that mom or Uncle John are OK?

>> What if they don't agree?

We think oh, she just thinks that or he just thinks that they're incapacitated.

>> They're not really.

Yeah.

And that's something that does concern me from time to time that one family member we'll see some things and maybe the other family members don't see them or it's not convenient to see what's going on.

>> It is still OK for one family member to to pursue their concerns and they need to do that.

>> I've seen that happen to my family members don't really agree on how bad mom or dad or Uncle John and you know, sometimes it's because they don't want to you know, I don't want to admit that they're declining so I don't really see those things and that's another reason why it's really important to begin to look at a professional like an attorney and again, you know, physician to help you make those decisions of what they should do and what they should not do.

OK, let's talk about the difference between the power of attorney and guardianship.

>> We touched on why it's important to have one or the other.

Can you have both should you have both?

>> Oh, you can certainly have both.

And we do have clients who who do the power of attorney.

It has to be created when the person is competent and is able to make that decision.

Yeah.

If the person is already lost that that capacity to thoughtfully make that decision then unfortunately a power of attorney is that possible?

They have to be able to make that that informed decision.

>> And you know, if I of attorney is the person that takes care of your business, financial, all those things.

>> But that is only good until I passed away after they passed away.

>> The power of attorney is not they don't have any responsibility.

>> It's then the trustee of the estate, correct?

That's right.

OK, right.

Yeah that may be the same person.

>> Absolutely ok yeah right.

Yeah and power of attorney is important because has a direct impact on you while you're alive it affects your quality of life whereas a will and a personal representative like you say later is just about stuff it's just about property.

>> Got it.

OK I understand that can force a family member to go to a nursing home or assisted living and you force them to if they don't want to but and part of them is still cognizant enough about their life that they think they want to make that decision not to go.

Well, I think that's a really important question because there is there are situations where a family member though you think they need additional help because of their illness or their personality, they don't think they need help so that creates a problem because under the law we have a bit of a patchwork of laws.

>> Sure.

And one area may cover guardianship in another area it covers what we consider to be commitments or more mental health issues.

>> OK, so it is possible to have a guardianship of a person but that does not give the Guardian the authority to force the person to go into a nursing and that causes a lot of problems within the family and for that person I do get some interest in this topic tonight Troy and you always explain things so well and we have some questions for you.

The first one from James and he says What is the difference between a notarized handwritten will and a normal notarized will?

>> OK, so I think he's asking the difference between handwritten or if somebody goes to an attorney and it comes out on the computer.

>> Yeah, well that's a good question.

>> James in Indiana actually to start with a will does not need to be notarized but it does need to be witnessed and as long as the will is signed and signed by two disinterested witnesses, it is a valid will.

Of course it has to have the gifting provisions that that will would have but it could be handwritten or it could be typed and prepared by an attorney.

But as long as it's witnessed and properly signed by a competent person then there really is no difference.

>> So if you wanted to write an addendum even in addition to maybe a will you already have that you've done with an attorney but you want to make some changes yourself you would write out what you wanted to make but you take it to a notary public and sign it in front of them, is that correct?

>> Well, it just taking it to a notary would not necessarily make it valid.

Oh, OK. Because it would need to be signed by two disinterested witnesses, one of which could be a notary.

>> OK, but they don't need to notarize the document.

>> OK, so right now I'm understanding yeah.

So as long as it's signed by two disinterested persons and it could be neighbors it could be people from church.

Yeah it would be most likely a valid will OK but you still have to follow the formalities.

I understand.

>> OK so I it's a good idea to talk to an attorney if at all possible and there are ways to talk and to do it is to do it in person with an attorney rather than doing a form that you fill out on the computer of how to make a will right.

>> We have two more questions here and it has called in and here's her question.

She says How does a transfer of death did work when the kids live out of town?

>> The pros and cons what do you think about that, Roy?

Well, a transfer on death did end is when a person will create a deed that says that they leave their real estate to their beneficiaries and it could be children.

It could be others and by operation of law when they pass away that property that real estate is automatically transferred to their beneficiaries.

>> It does not matter where those beneficiaries live if they live in state or out of state, it really makes no difference as far as pros and cons are concerned, a good benefit of a transfer on death deed is that that real estate is not subject to probate in most cases it would like I say pass automatically without ideally even needing to open a probate estate.

>> A con is that you want to make sure that the people if you're leaving it to more than one person that they can own real estate together they get along well enough that they can work out any differences that they that may come.

>> So you don't want to leave property to a couple of kids that don't get along get along because in order even to sell it they have to agree on everything including the realtor, the selling price conditions.

>> So give some good thought if you're going to give something or title something title something to someone.

John has a great question and thank you for helping and by away and thank you for watching too and John.

You're welcome here on LIFE Ahead any time John has a great question I think a lot of people were wondering about can someone admit themselves to a nursing home?

>> Maybe they are cognizant enough to know that they are are losing some of their ability to handle daily tasks or they they realize their mental capacity has declined somewhat.

>> Can you just hold up your hand and say I want to admit myself?

Yes, absolutely, John.

That is a great question and yes, a person can be fully competent, realize that life for them would be a little better in a nursing home and they they can decide to move to a nursing home and allow their care to be provided there.

>> There are usually a few different paths that we see that people take when they go to the nursing home voluntarily entering is one way we see a lot of people where there will be an incident or a health issue that forces them to enter the hospital.

>> Yeah, I like maybe somebody had a major surgery and after surgery they have to go to and something in order to get maybe the therapy they need or rehabilitation and maybe after a while they decide, you know, this really does work better for me to have some people around to help me.

>> Yeah.

And a lot of times at that point once they're in their it's they're evaluated and if they do have dementia, the nursing home is going to say, you know, we just yeah, just stay.

>> We just really can't really you and so and another way would be through the difficult process of if a person needs to be there but they refused to go and we don't have the hospital to help that along.

>> That becomes a long drawn out process that we like to avoid if possible.

One last question very quickly .

We're just about out of time, Troy.

Can you take somebody's car keys away from them if you want to because you think that it's unsafe for them to drive?

>> That's kind of a difficult question and I'm an attorney but I'm not necessarily the viewer's attorney.

So No one I would say if you're in that situation talk to your attorney.

>> But there are definitely I think laws that a person could run afoul of if they either tamper with a vehicle by removing a battery cable or hiding keys.

You want to be careful there but you're weighing that against if you know this person has had it maybe incidents accidents in the past and you know they shouldn't be behind the wheel.

You know, maybe you make that decision to limit their driving in some way so many decisions to make which is why we have people like Troy Kiefer here on our show to try to give you some guidance.

We thank you all for watching us here tonight on LIFE Ahead.

Troy, thank you so much for your input and we're going to be back next Wednesday night at seven thirty.

>> I hope you'll join us then.

Meanwhile, have a great night.

>> Stay safe.

Stay healthy