Hello, I'm Lisa McNair and today's episode is a little different.

Joining me today are the host of A Braver Arkansas, Glenn White and April Chatham Carpenter.

Today, we're stepping back from our usual format to talk about why this show exists.

What Glenn and April are learning through Braver Angels, and why this work matters right now in Arkansas, Many Americans are reflecting on where we've been and where we're headed.

This anniversary comes at a time when our country feels deeply divided.

Trust is low.

Public discourse often feels reactive, and many people feel exhausted by the noise and the conflict.

But this moment also raises an important question who do we want to become in the next chapter of our story?

And that's what today's conversation is about.

Glenn, April, thanks for letting me turn the tables on you today.

Certainly.

As Arkansas TV expands its Arkansas centered programing during this 250th anniversary year, you too have been given something pretty rare an hour every two weeks to talk about what really matters to communities across the state.

Learning about shared values and concerns seems really important right now.

At the same time, a lot of people are asking hard questions about what public media is for and who it serves.

So my first question to you is why braver Arkansas now and who is it serving?

Well, I'll answer first.

That show a braver Arkansas is something that when we were first approached about it and asked to do it, I was like, what?

Me?

I'm not.

I'm not suited for TV.

And it seemed a little intimidating.

So I was ready to run for the hills.

But that didn't last long because I realized that, you know, we've been working in Braver Angels for some time, trying to spread the word about the need for people to respectfully engage with each other, even when we have differences and to get involved in their community.

And so I said, well, I've been doing all these other things.

This is just a new learning experience for me, but it's an opportunity to spread the word and I need to take advantage of it.

And, you know, maybe I'll be a little uncomfortable at first, but that's okay.

Learning experiences are that way, and it's an opportunity I really shouldn't turn down.

So I'm just going to try to do my best.

And I'm sure there are other people who could do better.

But here I am.

So.

And the other part about with the show, the reason it's so important is, as we mentioned at the start, so many people are tired of the way things are going to try to the anger, the suspicion, the conflict.

We've been in that environment more than long enough.

We need something to change rather than this aggressive reactive approach or the opposite, which many people do, which is to disengage and back off and avoid everything we're trying to, through Braver angels, show a third way, a way in which we can not be reactive, but be thoughtful and follow our values in a way that we talk to each other and, you know, give people a chance to have their say and for them to hear us in a way that doesn't put people off.

So I think that's why the show is here, is giving.

It's all a chance to do that.

April.

You know, for me, it's all about the stories.

Stories create imagination in us.

We can visualize things.

We can see when things are better or worse.

And the stories that we're oftentimes told in the media are the negative stories.

They're the stories that create the outrage for us, that make us kind of feel this, this like, oh, I hate that, or I hate them.

And I just believe Arkansans are better than that.

And so when we were approached about the possibility of having this TV show, I thought, you know, we can really highlight some cool things that are happening in Arkansas, people who are doing normal things to help their neighbors, to actually work in their communities, to do things differently.

And if people can somehow see themselves.

And one of my goals for the show is for people to see themselves in the lives of the people that we have on the show.

They may not have exactly the same life circumstances.

Nobody does.

But if they can see themselves and say, I could do that, or I have done that, or, wow, I'm actually doing that in my community and I'm making a difference.

And we oftentimes in my field we call this positive deviance stories.

So deviance is not can sometimes be seen as a bad word right.

People that are like really odd or different.

But I'm talking about if most of the things that we're getting in the media are negative, then a deviant story would be something that's different than that.

And so if we can highlight these positive deviance stories, people who are doing things different than what we hear, then we might be able to create in our mind and imagination for things that could be better.

Now, I know both of you have been doing this work for a long time and working across political and other kinds of divides, which emerged when you had these conversations can be exhausting work, but what keeps you engaged?

I mean, this has been going on for you've been doing this work for a really long time.

What's what's keeping each of you engaged?

Well, one of the things that keeps me engaged is just the notion that I see what's been happening in this country and what is still happening, and it's not pretty.

There are a lot of good things in this country.

A lot of people are doing good things.

But overall, there's this attitude in this atmosphere we've talked about that's increasingly negative and full of conflict.

And as a psychologist retired now, but I've studied a lot over the years about how people think, how they believe, and how they changed their beliefs.

What happens when you get into conflict and there's episodes or examples, I would say in political sense of other countries where it's gone downhill fast in a democracy.

And I don't want to see that happen here.

So I just want to find a way that we can get into problem solving and kind of let go of some of the disagreements, or at least the the rancor that we have.

Our disagreements around of the work keeps you engaged.

Yes.

In April, you know, for me, I I've been a communication professional and professor for many years.

If I didn't believe that we could make our relationships better and see it personally, but also in my students and in my community, in my church, then I don't know that I would have the hope to want to continue, but I see the potential for improving our speaking and listening skills, and that's that's really what keeps me going.

One thing that keeps me going, then I'm also part of my key, part of my identity is being a person of faith.

And I realize that how much my values and my personal beliefs drive who I am, but I never want those personal beliefs and values to drive a wedge between me and another person.

And I think in politics, it seems like these days that's what's happening, is that we hold to our values so strongly that we can't even listen to the values or the beliefs of another person.

And so somehow in this, this connection with braver angels, I'm able to take both the oh, I can make things, we can make things better in terms of how we communicate.

And I can also be able to express my values and hear the values of others in a way that I grow as a human being and as a person.

And so what I don't want and what I've always hated is contempt.

I can't stand it when I see people making fun of other people in ways that put them down.

Maybe I've maybe I was bullied enough as a kid.

I don't know that I can't stand seeing other people bullied.

Maybe it's because I just have that value of of of everyone should be treated with dignity.

But when people treat each other with contempt, it gets the hackles on my back up.

And it doesn't matter.

I don't care if it's somebody on my side or somebody in the other side.

We can do better.

I hear, I hear hope and anger, hope and anger both.

I know that, but you're talking about values, and I think it's important to mention that you talked at one point about having different values.

What we find out when we talk with people a lot is that our values actually are quite similar.

In most cases.

What differs is how we get to or honor those values.

So I think that's important to note too.

I had a discussion recently with a person in which they were, well, probably get into some of the Braver angels convention stuff, but in which she and I, she finally said to me, she says, you know, we disagree about this, but we both care for the safety of children.

The goal.

And I'm like, we do.

We have that value in common.

Okay.

So the next question is, I see why both of you are engaged and that you're passionate about the work that you're doing.

But what is what is the hardest thing about doing this kind of work?

Because it's it's a it's a it's a long game.

It is, it is.

Well, it's difficult because you have to deal with emotions.

And as human beings we're primarily emotional.

That's the first thing that comes to us easily.

And so it can be emotionally exhausting to try to monitor yourself and to encourage other people to do that, too.

And it's not like I'm saying, hey, I'm perfect.

I do like I do.

I still have my struggles to about handling things, and I need to be able to better recognize when I get strong emotions that are driving my behavior and how I'm treating someone else.

Instead, I need to stick with those values that persist that I believe are good.

And so that's one of the things that to me is is helpful, is to try to have a rational thought and a plan going in about how to handle things, because otherwise it is tough.

It's easy to get into the emotional, conflictual approach that we're all doing now.

So when you're trying to engage with other people, you're also having to develop and be self-aware and understand I've got to you've got.

You're simultaneously working with your own vulnerabilities.

That's right.

The self-awareness is really important that you have to be willing to look at yourself and say, how am I doing?

Am I acting according to my values?

Am I giving this other person a fair shake?

And we don't easily do that just readily.

We have to work on that.

That's one of those human tendencies that it's it's tough to do, but it's to me, it's our job.

It's our moral duty.

In fact, I would even say that what we do in Braver Angels, even though we use these other words to describe it, I think ultimately this is a moral journey we're undertaking.

We are trying to get people to exercise according to higher moral standards.

And it doesn't matter.

You don't even have to be a person of faith.

It can be most faiths, most religions, and most people, even most atheists, have a set of decent morals.

So stick to them.

It's not easy, and we've got plenty of research in our field, in psychology of how hard it is to to do that, but it's our job again, moral journey.

That's an interesting thought.

I have not thought about this in terms of being a moral journey, but I think in some ways that's being on a growth journey is how I would I would express it.

I think about I'm not good at dealing with emotions.

I didn't grow up in a family and which emotions were really dealt with.

I was sent to my room whenever I got angry.

So, you know, until I got better.

And I'm working with that.

I mean, working with a counselor on figuring out how to best deal with those things, but that that immediate reaction that I have, you kind of you saw it just a minute ago, then mediate reaction is is part of that learning to live in tension for me.

And so I have strong values, I have strong beliefs.

When do I speak them and when do I listen?

Because it is hard for me to decide that, and I still struggle with that in Braver Angels has helped me with that on my growth journey, with my color, moral journey or growth journey.

Because I don't always know.

Sometimes I just think maybe this is the time just to hear what the other person saying and may not share necessarily my perspective.

But there are other times in which I feel so strongly about something.

I think I need to share it, but how do I share it so that I can be heard?

How can I?

I want to be able to listen so that I can be listened to, but how can I share something so that it doesn't come across as being?

You're wrong.

And that's really hard.

And so that tension of I want to, I want to do better is, is something that's that's hard for me.

Yeah.

I can see that that and that's kind of the work of Braver Angels in general is teaching other people to to feel safe, to express who you are as well, even when you're trying to elicit the stories of other people and really hear them to.

So it's a constant kind of balancing act of not not silencing your voice either, even if you're a moderator, but owning who you are and your values and not not just reacting to them all the time as well, which we're also trying to encourage other people to do, to feel free to express them and hold on to them.

For those of us who are more conflict averse so don't like conflicts, it is so same.

It is so easy for me to almost blend in to whoever the group is that I'm with and just be like, you know, whatever it is that they're saying and not speak up.

And yet there are times in which I need to be speaking up.

And so knowing how and when and being, you know, if I speak up, it will make some other people uncomfortable.

And then I have to figure out, okay, what is it that I can how do I react to somebody else being uncomfortable with something that I'm saying?

How do I react when I'm uncomfortable?

That's what you were saying, though, that balance of of paying attention to being silent for a reason, but not silencing yourself, claiming your voice.

Yeah, yeah.

So what do you say to somebody when they go, oh, this sounds great, bring it on.

Because I've had that reaction to people like, oh, this is Braver Angels.

That's such a good idea.

But they say, this sounds really good.

But what happens when the person I'm trying to have an honest and respectful conversation with doesn't play by the same rules.

And while your intentions are good to engage with, maybe a family member or a close friend, or to someone you care about and want to have this conversation with, but run into the fact that they they're angry and they don't really want to be honest and respectful.

If you're going to take the position that you take, what do you say to that person who has that concerns about getting engaged in the first place?

And it's hard.

It's hard.

I remember yeah, I remember being in a family situation.

I won't give the details in case you and my family might be listening, but being in a family situation that we were just going around and kind of catching up on what everybody was doing in their lives, and the person ended up going off on a particular politician.

And I was like, now what am I supposed to do?

You know, what am I supposed to say?

And my husband knew I was in Braver Angels.

He's like looking over me, like, you should be able to fix this now.

And I'm like, at the point, at that point I'm just like, okay, next person.

And realizing, though, that maybe that conversation I needed to have with that person individually, separately from the group, you know, they talk a lot about this and the angels Family and Politics workshop, and they talk about people who kind of get off on being the gladiator role.

And, you know, they talk about that even if a person is not playing by the rules.

And I've had this was with students who were upset with me about something else.

That's not all about politics.

If I will start actually slowing it down, recognizing my emotion, sit there and try to listen to what it is they're saying and then reflect back what I'm hearing them say.

So I'm acknowledging what they're saying.

It's some and maybe there's something I can agree on a little bit, or the lap skills that I know we've talked about in another episode.

Those actually do slow.

They make the temperature go down.

And so I can only be responsible for my own reaction, not for the others.

You know, one of the first things I remember, the first workshop that I ever did on skills for Bridging the Divide.

One of the guidelines, they tell you, is that you have rendered some difficulties.

When you try to do this, everything doesn't go smoothly, and one of the things that doesn't go smoothly is when you're practicing these lap skills.

You know, often, usually the other person hasn't heard that.

So they're not following those rules.

So you have to be prepared for that and understand that, you know, reciprocity is not something you can expect at first.

Somebody has to go first, right?

So let it be you be the one who initiates this approach, and then maybe they will respond.

It's kind of like many people have heard this, that if you get into an argument with someone and they start raising their voice, there's a natural tendency for you to raise your voice to.

And that's how things get out of control.

So one of the things they teach you is when you start seeing that happen, start lowering your voice a little bit, you know, consciously.

And if you do that, the other person almost instinctively responds and starts lowering.

So, you know, if you can practice the lap skills in these respectful ways of doing, it may not happen right away, but eventually people may start, at least to an extent, reflecting that different approach.

I'm laughing because when I started teaching, I taught sixth grade three years.

One of the first things you learned is when a child is getting excited and really angry and upset, you drop your voice.

So I mean, that's just that's just tried and true skill.

So that's just kind of following the better angels of your nature, which is kind of that phrase from Lincoln's inaugural address that initially named our group.

Do we need to talk briefly about what lap skills are for anybody that might not have been introduced to that with an earlier episode?

I think I think maybe just briefly, kind of what we're referring to, say, lap school lap skills acronym.

Right.

So lap so before if somebody is coming to you and they're pretty intensely upset about something.

So the first thing is that the very first thing is listening.

Right.

So I oftentimes think about opening my hands up and and just saying, okay, I'm here to try to understand what they're saying.

They're upset, but I'm not trying to come up with my next thing in my mind.

So I'm and I'm maybe, maybe I'll ask a question of clarification during that point of time.

But I'm not I'm not trying to come up with a point by point blow of what they're getting ready to say.

And then the A is, I acknowledge what I've heard them say.

Maybe I'm reflecting back with a paraphrase, but I may if there's something I can agree on, I can do that potentially.

That's where you could, you know, asking questions can also kind of fit in that a part.

We're going to use the acronym.

But that's before I ever share my perception my perspective.

And sometimes some misunderstandings are taken care of.

If it's a misunderstanding just by doing those two and then the P's are when I'm then getting permission, the pivot is the first P, I'm getting permission from the other person to share an alternate perspective.

And I'm not just blurting out, well, I can't believe you said that, but it's like, hey, we actually could potentially, maybe I could look at this a little differently.

And do you have time for me to share that with you?

And that's the P, the first P. And then I share my perspective using I statements I feel I think maybe it could be this way.

Not a true statement, not a truth statement.

Yeah.

So that's what we're talking about in a true statement is when you're just saying, here's the way it is.

I know, take it from me, some version of that.

You don't want to do that.

Yeah.

So what I learned about lab skills is it's really training and listening and and and slowing ourselves down and, and basic listening skills at work, not just in political discussions, but, you know, family therapy.

A lot of what you're training family members to do is to listen to each other.

Use eye language and not always trying to win an argument or interrupt somebody, or tap your foot and wait until they finish saying whatever they're saying because you don't care so that you can get your word in.

So I love the lap skill set that were designed to and broken down to be so easily taught to people.

Anyone, anyone can learn them.

And they're really very powerful.

They they sound simple when you describe them.

And when I was learning, you know, I was reading about them like, oh yeah, this is basic psychotherapy does is it slows things down.

Yeah.

Because when when a person you ask the question, you know, this sounds good, sounds good.

But what if the other person is like off the rocker or in conspiracy theories or whatever, you know, there are there are going to be difficult times, and there are going to be times in which I may not ever agree with that person, but if I can slow down my own emotional reaction, then I might have a chance of actually trying to understand where the person is coming from and maybe even ask a question like, tell me more about how you got to that point.

Tell me the story behind the story or the story behind your thoughts.

So two takeaways from just this brief conversation about lap skills is, I'm thinking, learning to listen, using lap skills to really listen to someone.

But in those hot situations and that question that I asked you, you know, what do you what do you say to the person that goes, these skills sound good, but I just know other people aren't going to be following them.

It's just listen to the conversation you're having.

If it feels too heated, ether say, I hear you, but this doesn't sound like a good time to talk or just I really want to understand you better.

And if that doesn't deescalate so that you can also teach people basic exit skills.

So it's exit from the conversation kinds of skills that and you're acknowledging that it's not going to be smooth all the time.

It's not going to be easy all the time.

People are not going to embrace you for sharing your views or, you know, slowing because people are passionate.

Yeah.

No one ever said this was going to be easy.

No.

And timing is all important.

I often use an acronym halt if the other person or you are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.

It is probably not the time to be having this difficult political discussion or a discussion about whether my kids done their homework, or whether a discussion about anything that might be causing issues that would be getting emotions aroused.

Yeah.

So I love that reassurance that you don't have to be on all the time.

You're not compelled to be using lap skills in every confrontation that we also braver angels also teaches you ways to to the more subtle, the more subtle skills of kind of reading the situation.

And going may have to come back to this.

So.

Okay, let's take a break now for a clip from the National Braver Angels convention that April recently attended, one that might resonate with some of the viewers in terms of their own families and communities in it.

One of the founders of Braver Angels, Bill Doherty, is talking with the current Braver Angels CEO, Mari Giles.

When we come back, we'll talk about some of the highlights from the convention.