Hello, I'm April Chatham Carpenter, and I'm Glen white.

Welcome back to a brave Arkansas.

And if this is your first time, welcome.

In this episode, we'll introduce and demonstrate some skills that Braver Angels teaches to help make difficult conversations work their speaking and listening skills.

But we call them the lap skills.

And our guest today is Don Groover, who joins us from Northwest Arkansas and the Carroll County Braver Angels Alliance.

Don learned the lap skills at one of our early Braver Angels Arkansas presentations, and she has used them to change something important in her own family.

So we'll get to her in a few minutes.

So, Glenn, before we get to Don, I know that, you know, speaking and listening skills aren't like a magic bullet that we don't always get them correct.

And I think it would be helpful for our listeners to hear a little bit about an experience or two that maybe you've had in which you didn't quite get it right.

And that's important, April, because the truth is, they sound simple.

But these skills aren't really that simple.

They take practice, but you know, you do the best you can and keep getting better.

One of my first problems with using the lap skills was with my family.

And for them, I just, I kind of went in with the intention of having a conversation where I would use the lap skills, but best plans sometimes go awry.

And what happened was, we've talked about this for and we'll talk about it again, the importance of emotion.

A lot of times when we're having political conversations, emotions take over.

And it did with me too.

I started off with listening skills, but then it it didn't go well.

It kind of fell apart pretty quickly.

I didn't listen long enough.

I didn't acknowledge as much as I should have.

I failed to even pivot, and I just launched into perspective of telling my side of the story.

So there are a lot of things that didn't go well then, but I have a more recent example to not from.

Not long ago, I was making a presentation to a group and I was explaining about the lap skills.

So I said, well, let's try a role play.

Somebody in the audience play one side and I'll use the example.

Now, for the most part, it went well.

This time you would hope.

But one of the things I noticed is I've done the listening and the knowledge and and then during the knowledge and agree part, I was I kind of messed up and I threw in a brief perspective.

It was in the context of trying to acknowledge what someone said, and I contrasted it to mine.

Analyze.

Oh no, I messed up.

I did the perspective first.

So I immediately realized that.

And so I kind of stopped and I told everybody in the audience what was going on that I had just violated what I'm trying to teach them in explained how and I said, well, that's an example of how sometimes things don't go well at first, or sometimes even several times later.

So it's a work in progress.

So just be patient with yourself, do your best and keep working at it.

Yeah, well, thank you for your honesty there.

I think that it's always important to realize that we can be better, but we also can compliment ourselves when we're doing it during it.

Well, one of the things that I think our viewers might would want to know now is to really think about what are the lab skills.

And so they're actually named after one of the founders of our organization.

His last name is spelled Lap David Lap.

He's from Ohio, and it stands as an acronym.

So it stands for listen, acknowledge or agree, pivot and perspective.

So let's just kind of define those things for for our viewers who might not have heard of this before.

The first one is listening.

And I always I always compare this to really it's my heart.

It's my heart saying, you know, and telling my, my body and my mind to basically say, I, I want to treat you with someone that's worth as someone that's worthy of respect, as someone that I really want to spend time understanding where you're coming from.

So I'm listening with curiosity.

I'm trying to listen for values, for emotions, for experiences that might be underneath your position.

If I ask questions during that kind of l listening stage, I'm asking clarifying questions.

I'm trying to just clarify something that maybe I don't quite understand.

Not not to ask a question to kind of get them or catch them on something.

So, you know, a question like what led to your feelings about that?

Or tell me a story about how you came to that perspective is much better than how can you be against that?

That's not the kind of question we're talking about.

So that's the l the listen.

Yeah.

And the next A is for acknowledge or agree.

The acknowledge part is simply it's kind of a part of the listening skill because you're listening to them.

And then you want to let them know you were hearing what they had to say.

So the skill you usually use is paraphrasing.

You just paraphrase what they said, don't play Polly Parrot, you know, but just kind of in your own words, summarize what you heard them say.

So that's the part.

And that helps to connect with the person when they feel like this person really was listening to me.

The agree doesn't always come up, but if you hear anything that they said that you can agree with even just one small part of it, then you you point that out.

You said, you know, I agree with you about that part, that that part makes sense to me too.

So that's kind of the acknowledge and the agree part.

The agree could also be just, wow, this is a tough issue I agree with.

We both agree it's it needs solving.

We're not sure what.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So really that acknowledge and agree show that you're listening.

So in some ways I kind of connect those together as being both listening skills.

That L and the A. Well the two piece are really about speaking skills.

They're about how I'm going to actually maybe lead into my perspective.

And I'll be honest, a lot of times I am just I do the L on the A, and then maybe I don't have time to share my perspective, but I have better understood where they come from.

But if you have time for a more full conversation and you think they might be open to it, then the P, the first P stands for pivot.

And it's like a turn signal on your car, right?

So I'm giving you some indication that I might be wanting to share a little bit different perspective or a different story or something.

So I might say something like, you know, I, I've been doing some reading or I have a different take I'd like to share.

Do you have time for me to share it, or would you be open to me to talk about that?

Now?

You have to be willing if you're going to use the pivot.

They don't have to say yes.

They may say no, but at least you're empowering them, giving them the opportunity to be able to say, sure, I'll listen to you.

And if they're willing, that's time for perspective.

And so you use the perspective skill in a certain way that's more helpful.

Something many of you are familiar with is I statements.

And I statement is basically saying, I believe this.

Here's what I think rather than a true statement which you want to avoid.

True statements are where you say this is the way it is.

So the perspective part is you saying, I believe this, this is the way I see it, my perspective or my view, something like that.

So you're just taking personal responsibility for saying this is the way I look at things.

Not saying everybody who has an ounce of brain knows it's not that kind of thing because that turns people off.

So that's the perspective thing.

And another thing that can be helpful with perspectives statements is personal stories.

It always helps to personalize it.

Say I believe this.

I see it this way because of and tell the story.

Maybe it's because of the way you were raised.

The values you hold are, you know, something that happened to you once.

You know, for some people, you know, like their their job or their career has given them a chance to have personal experience with things that they're providing their perspective about.

The other part about this is that it's okay to have a strong opinions.

We don't ask everybody to be moderate in the middle and be mammy pamby about what they have to say.

You can be strong, but you must be basically respectful.

Okay, I've heard somebody say that.

Speak so that others want to listen to you.

Oh, that's a good one.

Yeah.

And to do that using some of those perspective skills is really helpful.

One of the things that's been difficult for me is going into a conversation, realizing that I may not be able to change the other person's mind, or maybe I shouldn't even try to change their mind, because if I'm having these conversations about something I feel strongly about, my initial thought is, if I'm not depolarized enough, is there wrong?

So I've got to fix it right?

But if I can go into it and and not with the desire to change their mind or the belief that they might even accept my view, there is no assurance, even in using these skills, that they're going to come to agree with me.

And that's hard sometimes when I'm sharing my perspective because I want them to agree with me.

I also realize that they may not use the same skills back.

They may model.

They may model that, you know, back to me what I am doing, but they might not.

So Glen, I think it would be helpful for us to role play this.

I know in our Braver Angels workshops, we do a lot of role plays and have people actually practice these skills.

And so there's one demo that I really liked.

It's on gun rights, and I adapted it for our TV show just so that we could have a conversation where both of us get to practice the lap skills.

So are you game to do a role play with me?

But but here's the thing is, I'm setting you up first to be the polarizer.

So you have to come across as kind of like were that role.

I'm sure you are in the past.

In the past.

Oh no, not at all anymore.

Right.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, this is going to be about gun rights, and I'm hoping that our viewers will maybe find something in here that they can see.

Oh, yeah, I've had that kind of conversation before, but maybe this is how it's different.

What are the skills, the lap skills that they might be seeing.

So we'll be kind of going over those after we do it.

So why don't you get us started?

All right.

April, I'm so upset about the Republicans in Congress.

They are, you know, getting all this campaign support from the gun lobby.

And as a result, they will not take any reasonable steps to pass common sense gun laws.

It's like they don't care about keeping our kids safe.

Well, sounds like you're really worried, maybe frustrated about children's safety and also kind of angry that more is it being done about these shootings?

Honestly, actually, it's such an important issue.

None of us want our kids to be gunned down.

And I agree with you.

The shootings.

We need to protect our children.

It should be important to everyone, regardless of what their political position is.

Exactly.

And I just don't understand what the holdup is, why they can't just go ahead and make the changes.

Well, I can understand why you feel that way.

Would it be okay if I shared some, maybe perspectives that some gun owners and Second Amendment supporters have shared with me?

Sure.

Okay.

I sometimes think I was looking at this through a different lens and and the gun owners that have talked to me about it, my own family, you know, guns were part of our part of my family tradition.

They're part of the rural culture of a lot of family members that are hunters.

But I also have people that I know that see guns as being important for personal protection.

And many also view the Second Amendment as being so important because they don't they're afraid that government's going to do overreach and they're wanting to safeguard against that government overreach.

So in from that perspective, any kind of proposal for additional regulation seems like it's going to be a threat to individual freedom and rights.

It's not that they don't care about school shootings.

They've got kids too, but they just have different ideas about what should be done.

Well, if I hear you right, then you basically say that it's not that people don't care about safety of kids.

They just also have some real concerns about individual freedoms and things like that.

Yeah, that's exactly what many of them are concerned about.

Okay.

All right.

Well, I can understand why they would be concerned about their constitutional rights.

I don't necessarily agree with all the conclusions, but I get it.

What can I share with you some of my concerns that I still have?

Sure.

I, I don't have a lot of time, but sure, I got it.

Well, I'm just worried that if we have another school shooting and they keep happening, it's going to normalize that level of violence.

And I just I don't want government overreach to to make that the new norm.

I agree with that concern.

I don't want more school shootings for sure.

And I can see how you believe you feel that way.

I just I think we're probably not going to agree on the policies, but we agree on the problem.

So I hope we do seriously consider some some policies that will work.

Yeah.

Well so we agree on some things.

Disagree on others.

That's right.

I will say that I think I understand a little more from talking with you about the concerns on the other side, and I understand that you are a little bit more about why you're very concerned about this issue, and that's really what the goal is, right?

I mean, it's better understanding.

So we think about these lap skills.

I mean, you saw both of us illustrating them.

So he Glenn started out as being polarized.

I kind of brought the heat down a little bit by listening and acknowledging and agreeing.

Then I asked to share my perspective and pivoted to that perspective.

And and then I share my perspective.

And the he turned in.

You started using the listening skills and also went into a pivot and a perspective.

So you can kind of see how it could naturally work in a conversation that we have.

So when we think of that, all of that actually is going to bring us to our guest.

And so we're going to take a break here, get set up for that.

And we'll hear from somebody that's actually used the skills.

Very good.

All of that brings us to today's guest.

Don Groover learned these skills at one of Braver Angels Arkansas's early presentations and tried them in her own family, specifically with her sons, where politics had caused strain.

And she was changed enough by the results that she's now worked with others to start a new Braver Angels alliance or chapter in Northwest Arkansas, specifically in Carroll County by Eureka Springs and Berryville.

And we wanted to talk to Don because she's done the rare thing of taking a one hour presentation and using those lap skills she learned, turning it into something that changed her life and is now affecting other people's lives, too.

So, Don, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Good to see you, Glenn, and good to see you, April.

Yeah.

So I wanted to start out just with a question, first of all, about you personally.

And what do you do and tell our viewers a little bit more about you?

Well, I'm a native Arkansan.

I grew up in Hot Springs.

I'm a retired hospice nurse.

I had the opportunity to move up to Springs about two and a half years ago, and I just absolutely love it.

This is a great place to live in retirement, and it's wonderful also because I'm closer to my boys.

I've got one in Branson and one five minutes away from me, so it's great.

Well, now go ahead.

What brought you to To the Braver Angels Arkansas, in the first place?

The work here.

This was back in 2023.

One son had gotten through college.

The other one was still in college.

And we were we were really struggling to have conversations about topics that we were engaged with and wanted to talk about.

Those conversations went very poorly, and it was affecting other, other parts of our lives together.

And I happened to run across an article in a local newspaper about a presentation by an organization I'd never heard of called Braver Angels.

It spoke to a need I was having at the time, trying to figure out how to talk to my boys.

So I went to the presentation and it was Glenn and David Childs, and it was at a local Methodist church.

Should end up to drive very far.

And what they offered in that presentation, just it it landed exactly where I needed it to be.

As far as telling me there was something I could do and showing me how to do it.

And I noticed that day the room was full of folks.

The people at the table I set with.

They shared the same feeling like, oh my gosh, this is something we can do.

Let let's go for it.

So well, don't you did when you came to that presentation.

I'm glad, first of all, to know that it did so much good for you.

Can you tell us a little more about what you recall about what David and I were talking about, what stuck with you, and then kind of, you know, what was going on in your life that caused you to just, you know, take attention to that and do something with it, I think.

Well, you gave examples of of people having conversations that weren't effective and then talked about how it's part of our hardwiring to want to divide into tribes or silos.

That's just that hard wiring in the limbic system.

And as a nurse, that that made sense to me.

I sure didn't see that, though, that that's what I was doing.

And that here again, once my boys had different opinions than I did, we were completely in different silos.

But that that made a lot of sense.

And then when you started talking about the communication skills, they made sense to me too, that I wanted to try them with them.

I honestly, I was kind of desperate.

I. Yeah.

So what would a typical conversation have look like up until that point with with one of your boys?

Or maybe it was together with them?

Well, oh, it was even worse.

It was together because then they would tag team, but a backstory.

So growing up in our household, we enjoyed conversations as a family, especially around the dinner table, about cultural issues, political issues.

You know, nothing was off the table.

And their dad was with us at that time, and he and I, we looked at things differently a lot of the time.

But as a family, we really enjoyed robust conversations.

And what I didn't appreciate it at the time was that the boys viewpoints were more there were more aligned with my own.

Fast forward to one gets through college and one is starting college and and we lose their dad.

So we lose kind of that balanced approach that he and I both had when we were in conversation with them.

Now it's just me and the boys, and it was just a shock when we would start trying to have these conversations and their views no longer aligned with mine.

And their favorite thing to say to me at that time was, mom, get your head out of this band.

And I would say, no, no, this is how this is how I look at this issue.

And here are the facts that support my stance.

And this is why you're wrong.

Well, that landed badly and that never changed their mind.

And they would do the same thing with me.

That old mom.

Get your head out of the sand.

And mom here the facts.

And this is why we think you should change your mind.

And it never worked.

Zero times did it work.

And what I noticed was we were just.

It was not an easy time in our lives anyway.

But.

And maybe especially for me, it felt like it was just trying to talk and just doing this.

It seemed to separate us some.

It bled over into the rest of our relationship, and it felt like it put a distance between us and for me, especially at that time, that was very distressing.

So it would always end with, mom, get your head out of the sand.

It would be the last statement.

And then would you walk away from that at that point, or would you would there be yelling?

No, I'm trying to push.

Okay.

Which just made it worse.

And there was some eye rolling there too on both sides.

I will say, you know, all the body language that said you're wrong.

You didn't think this through.

I'm hearing some of the four Horsemen of polarization there, right?

Maybe a little.

You might want to tell the content.

Yeah, well, I know, you know, one of is contempt, which is when you have no respect for the other person's viewpoint.

And the eye rolling, I think would be part of that.

I don't know, what else would you include in all of that?

No, not really willing to be able to listen or really understand the perspective of where each other was coming from.

But the strange thing is, is that you all used to be aligned and then you weren't.

And so the differences became more obvious than the similarities.

Well, I think part of it, April was growing up.

The boys, they were captive.

They were captive in that.

They listened to the news sources I listened to.

So they grew up listening to NPR.

And after they went away to college, they started listening.

They they broaden their horizons and had more information coming in from their professors, things going on on campus, other students sharing the podcast.

They listen to the journalists they read, and they didn't have that in our home.

It was it was the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette and which they I subscribed to.

They didn't pay much attention to it, but was pretty much always on in the background.

So I think for them probably growing up, that was easier to be aligned with mom and dad because that was the culture they grew up with.

But go away to college.

Rising broadened, and suddenly they were more aligned with their dad than me.

And it was more than just the not listening to NPR, but it was probably, I would imagine, going to college.

You form a new social group, a social circle, and get exposure from people who think differently than they did growing up with you.

Yes.

And you know, you want that for your children.

You want their horizons to broaden as as you fledge them college and then career and marriage and all that.

So they were doing and I kept telling myself that they're doing what we wanted them to do.

But my goodness, I had no idea it would be this difficult to talk with them.

So what would happen when you were getting ready to go into a conversation?

I'm thinking about?

We were able to talk about their lives and other kinds of things and things that were happening that were not political.

Correct.

Is that or was it was it taking away from that part of the conversation topics as well?

If I would say at that time, and this was probably 2019 through 2023, when I found Braver Angels, there was a lot going on in the political landscape and in the cultural landscape, so there was a lot to talk about.

And for some of it, I will say, was felt very relevant for them, and some of it felt very relevant for me.

But here again, it just that frustration and irritation to each other.

It just bled over into the rest of our conversations and time together.

Can you go back now for a moment to remembering the lap skills that you learned in our presentation, and then when you maybe first started using them in your conversations with your sons, you know, tell me a little bit about that.

What was going through your mind?

How did you use them?

How did that work out?

Okay, yes, I well, goodness knows I was certainly awkward initially, but and also I didn't tell them about brave angels.

I didn't tell them about these communication skills, but I just stepped into the water and started using them.

And at that particular time I saw my younger son much more often.

He was away at school, but he would come home for weekends and holidays and breaks and and being under the same roof.

We were kind of weather to have those opportunities, and a lot of our conversations happened when we go out hiking.

We're we're a very outdoors loving family.

And where we were living in the village, lots of hiking trails battling.

So we very often would go hiking together.

And what I noticed, and this kind of I noticed it in retrospect.

But as we were hiking before the angel skills that I started to implement, I did notice we could get through a hike a lot faster together than when I would hike myself, and I attribute that at the time to Will being much taller than me, taking a longer stride.

So I'd be helping and puffing, but I'd keep up with them.

But what it was was we were engaged in conversation, and we were so weird with each other and frustrated and amped up that we hiked twice as bad.

We get these hikes done in record time, and I remember thinking, gosh, what a great workout and keep up with Will.

But that wasn't it.

It was.

It was the frustration that amped us up and we hiked past.

The difference was I would I started using the communication skills while we were hiking again.

And what dawned on me probably several weeks in, was that it was taking us longer to finish a hike, and it wasn't because we were tired or out of shape, it was because we were more relaxed and that we, you know, weren't fueled by that frustration.

And we were actually engaged in a in a conversation where I was listening.

And he was I don't think he realized it, but he was kind of mirroring my behavior.

Interesting.

That was pretty wonderful.

Listening is certainly one of those skills, and that's great that you were able to see the connection even with the time on the hike.

That's that's kind of fun.

So of of the the lap, the lap skills, which one was did you find was the most important with with those conversations getting better?

I think especially with the two boys, what they gave to me as I improved my listening, they pointed out to me and I couldn't hear this before, before the lap skills.

But I started being able to hear it now.

And that was they were saying, mom, when they when they were saying, mom, get your head out of the sand.

What they were telling me was, mom, you you can't just rely on NPR only why don't you listen to some of the podcast we listen to?

Why don't you read a couple of these journalists?

We'll send you the link so you can read their articles.

You know, broaden your horizon a little bit, mom.

And so I did.

And what was surprising to me as I did that and still do that now, was they had they maintained that that one new source I had never was biased.

And I would say, no, it is not.

I do not hear any bias.

But when I started listening to some of their news sources, their journalists, their podcasts, I could I could start hearing the bias.

And that was that was very important for me to find out.

And I don't know without them showing me that I don't know that I would have seen it.

It's interesting because it reminds me of the walk a mile and my news activity that sometimes we've we've had braver people do what they do is they with over a month period of time, as they listen to the news sources of the other person, and the other person listens to the news sources of them.

And during the month, several times during that month, they get together to talk about what they learned.

That was surprising not to to judge it, not to not saying it, to critique it, but just what were they learning about the other side?

So that's kind of what was happening to you.

So it sounds like there was work that's interesting to go ahead.

Oh, I was going to say we we now we share if I come and now I thanks to braver angels and my boys, my news, my sources have broadened widely.

I subscribed to Axios Now and Tangle and I love Axios Northwest Arkansas too.

But if I come across an interesting article, I'll send it to them and say, hey, what do you think?

And they'll do the same thing with me.

And that, I mean, that's pretty wonderful, I have to say.

Well, that's also following something that I've talked about a lot and we'll hear more about in the future.

And that's having a varied media diet, basically saying, don't just listen to 1 or 2 sources, and it doesn't matter if your source is NPR or Fox News or New York Times or whatever.

It's like, get a variety.

And so a couple of the ones you've mentioned give you a good variety.

I mentioned some, I think, in a previous episode.

So that's that's good to hear.

The, the variety of media I'm curious about with your lap skills for all the good that they've done.

Do you have any thoughts about which of the skills you find the most difficult to carry out?

I would say listening, that that was the hardest one for me, because I was someone who tended to not be listening while my conversation partner was talking.

I was already working on my rebuttal.

I was listening for facts that I could refute by presenting my own facts.

I was making assumptions about them based on their affiliation, maybe how they looked, maybe some of the things they said.

And these assumptions were not fair and often incorrect.

But trying to start learning, listening, all these things were coming up to me.

And it was it was humbling because I'd always thought I was a good listener and I found out I wasn't.

So how often did you find yourself then in other situations, using the acknowledge and agree components, but especially with your sons?

Yes, especially with my sons.

Well, I would say even today I use them often.

And that that was one of the great things to find out about these lab skills was not only are you able to repair damaged relationships, you're able to begin relationships with people that you're interested in just having a conversation with.

And an example would be during the primaries, I got to be a poll worker, and I specifically selected Maryville, which is in a more red section of our county.

And so I got to sit and visit with people who I know have very different opinions than mine on some issues, and it was wonderful.

Just use my skills.

And here again, we didn't have long periods to talk, but even periods I could use listening.

And I didn't find myself preparing a rebuttal.

I didn't find myself going from irritated to fearful, which was another thing I found out that I would do in listening.

I'd get triggered by something they said, and I can always tell if I'm sliding into fear because I start flinching my jaw.

And as soon as I start doing that, then I know, okay, it's time for me to ask for more clarification.

So so that's been a great experience being a poll worker.

So curious to know.

So it clearly has improved the relationship with your sons, perhaps others the new relationships.

What about your views getting exposed to more things and having these productive conversations.

Has it changed any of your views?

It has.

I think for when I'm a more informed voter now, just because I do use a variety of information sources, not not limiting myself to one.

So yeah, that's been very, very helpful.

So I know.

Oh, and let me could I elaborate a little bit more changing my views.

I have changed my views, which surprises me.

But I will say my values haven't really changed.

But how I see my values lived out in others now, I think I can appreciate it more than I could before Ray Rangel's came into my life.

And I have.

I'm going to say I've moderated my views on certain issues more than I would have ever thought I would have.

Well, let me just.

So I'm just going to ask you.

So you were blue before.

As I understand it, you've changed some views.

Okay.

So you've changed some views.

Would you consider yourself still some shade of blue or purple or red?

I consider myself other purple.

Okay.

Yeah, I, I truly surprised myself in that I can appreciate a red voters stance on issues now where before I couldn't have.

So at some level, the conflict that you were having with your sons, which was painful along with the loss of their dad and your husband, really began a journey for you of conversational receptiveness, I think is what I call it sometimes in my classes is is I'm receptive to having these dialogs about things that I was am really surprising myself that I'm willing to, to have the dialog about.

That's.

Yes, that's exactly right.

Now, I know that you and I have talked some about what you've been doing in Northwest Arkansas, and you gathered, started gathering some people after you saw the effect of this around you, and you all started reading some books together and, and doing some things.

Tell us a little bit about the start of, of your, your community around you that now has become an alliance for braver angels.

Well, I have we had the good fortune of Glenn coming up to do that presentation for us in May of 2025, which was well attended.

I was so happy.

So many people came.

And even at the end of that presentation, when Glenn was wrapping up and I had the opportunity to ask those who had come if they'd be interested in coming to a monthly meeting.

And so many of them did, and that that our monthly meetings have continued with good turnout, maybe a little lower during the holidays, but otherwise just a good turnout.

And people are very engaged.

We started out well.

We quickly ascertained in the first meeting or two that a lot of the folks who were coming have experienced damaged relationships with family members, and they were like me.

At that first presentation at Glenn and David Gavin Hot Springs Village, they were looking for something.

So the first I'm going to say, the first nine months, we focused on education and practice of the lap skills, and we did that with a combination of me just finding topics for us to discuss and then the courses we did, those together and those generated a lot of discussion, which was wonderful.

Then Citizen Solutions came up and I and this was just a few months ago, kind of canvased the group to see was there what they would like to do something with that do something a little more action rated within the community.

But every one of them said, no, we still like this format.

We really want to continue to educate ourselves and practice and be in discussion.

So I continued that.

But what we did add was we select the book every month to read together and then come together in discussion.

And that has been wonderful in that it's given us lots of opportunity to share more ideas about what this author has talked about.

So that's been great.

I expect it to be some change in the monthly meetings, as this will be my last month as the group facilitator, and then Sarah and Sharon will take over starting in July.

And I know they I think after listening to some of their conversations, I think they they have some more plans for the group, which I think is wonderful.

I think it's a timely change of leadership and we'll all be fit.

The group will benefit from this.

Give us an example of a couple of three books that you've read.

Oh, I can look over at my bookcase and find them.

We read I Never Thought of it that Way by Monica Guzman.

Difficult conversations.

I know you're wrong, but I'm listening.

And whoever has the book facilitates that meeting.

So that's been great to to have participation from a specific group member.

And I will say things, we still have new people show up at our meetings.

Have you ever read the book by Jonathan Haidt called The Righteous Mind?

Oh yes.

I got into the first two chapters and then set it back down.

It's a little thick.

But I will say I enjoyed it very much.

It's just going to require some discipline on my part to stick with it and read it.

But yes, I have that on my show too.

I recommend that book to a lot of people, but what I will say if you find it a little bit thick, you may recall that at at the end of every chapter he has like a two page summary of what he just told you.

Go just look at the two page summaries at the end of the chapters and you may find that helpful.

Well, I like that very much, Glenn.

I've never had a professor tell me it was okay to go look at the cliff notes kind of place.

And, April, I know you're the professor in this thing, but but I should avail myself of that, at least to to appreciate some of the content of the book.

So you're right.

So what would you say to someone who might be watching now, who maybe is suffering from strained relationships?

You've talked about that a lot.

And so what would you recommend to them if they're looking for help?

I would start with Gray Rangel.

Well, first of all, I'd invite them to our meetings so they could see what it looks like in action as far as just talking about the skills and then practicing them, I would encourage them to go to the website and the Arkansas website because we're rich with content, helpful content, and I would encourage them to go ahead and join in the $12 annually and join because they have access to even more on the on the national website.

And get the newsletter and follow up on the links in the newsletter.

There is so much Brighter Angels offers that made a difference in my life.

And and since this is you're addressing in the Northwest Arkansas Carroll County area.

But of course this is going to be aired throughout Arkansas this show.

So people in other parts of the state can contact us, and we'll put them in touch with whoever they need to talk to.

Yes.

You also said, as we were getting ready to get on today that you've listened to, I think probably the only person besides you and me that have listened to all of the episodes of our podcast and there's like over 150 episodes.

What for?

For a viewer who has no idea what that podcast is about, how would you describe it?

You invite guests to be on the podcast from across the state, with a wide variety of backgrounds and professions who land on both sides of the political spectrum, or sometimes in the middle.

But what I love and and I appreciate that and what the questions you ask, I learned so much because your guests, their backgrounds are so varied and what they do is so varied.

I've learned so much, but especially what I enjoy listening to is how knowing each of you and your particular leanings, one red and one blue, how you ask your questions, how you receive the information and how you how you discuss it with each other.

It's it's been very helpful to me, as I can kind of model some of how I handle conversations with people in the group, as well as just getting one formation about what's going on in Arkansas that I wouldn't be aware of if I didn't.

In April, I especially left when you were the guest.

Oh, and you were interviewed.

Was it John and Glenn?

That was just a wonderful three parter.

I very much enjoyed that.

That was a little bit more vulnerable than perhaps our viewers have seen me be.

So if they want to know more about me, they probably can go and listen to those things.

Like, so how can viewers in Northwest Arkansas get in contact with you and your group?

Well, I know we well, let's see, that's a great question.

At this point, I'm the contact person for Brave Ranges of Carroll County.

Once Sarah and Sharon come on board, they'll be the contact person and they have email addresses.

I have one now, but I've just been using my personal one.

But they'll have email addresses we'll put out there so they'll reach through them, I think to to find out okay, I will say this is probably the same as, as other small communities across Arkansas.

But I noticed that especially in Eureka Springs and Berryville, because they're smaller communities, everybody kind of knows everybody.

And I think that's how we get new people coming in so often is they come with someone who's been coming regularly.

So I think word gets out.

Word of mouth, particularly in rural and small town environments, is worth a lot.

So.

Well, Don, we so appreciate everything you're doing.

You keep up the good work.

And we really appreciate having had the chance to talk with you today.

Thank you so much for having me on.

And thank you for modeling with your sons and your community, the work of of listening and treating others with dignity.

We appreciate that.

Likewise.

All right.

Well, when we come back, we'll spend a few minutes reflecting on what stayed with us, and we'll look at where we go from here.

Yeah.