(upbeat music) - Welcome to "At Issue."

I'm H. Wayne Wilson.

Thank you so much for joining us for a discussion, this time, about French history.

If you were fortunate enough to join us last week, we were talking about what turns out to be a very rich French history in all of Illinois and even states beyond Illinois.

We're going to continue the conversation this time and let me introduce to you first, Lisa Kahn.

Lisa is the director of the French Heritage Corridor Initiative.

We'll talk a little bit about that in a moment, but welcome to the program, Lisa.

- Bonjour, great to be here.

- And bonjour, and also rejoining us from last week, Todd Schwebel is here.

Thank you for rejoining the program.

- Merci, Monsieur.

- And continuing the French conversation, Charles Balesi joins us again.

Charles, thank you for being here.

- Je ma plaisir.

- And with that, we'll continue in English.

(laughs) Before we get back into a French history, and there's so much French history that has been overlooked to a large degree and that's what we're hoping to accomplish is to raise the uniqueness of the French history and instill it in the Central Illinoisians.

And there is an initiative to do just that, Lisa.

- That's correct.

So this is an initiative of French Heritage Society.

This is an organization that has 11 chapters, one's in Paris, 10 are in the United States.

The only one in the Midwest is the Chicago chapter.

We're just three years old, but we have a lot of ambition and we have tried to wrap our arms around the entire Midwest, not just staying Chicago-centric.

So this initiative, called the French Heritage Corridor, is about forming a network to give a platform to all of the various stakeholders that make up this wonderful Midwest that's just full of French heritage.

It could be reenactment groups, it could be historical societies, national parks, state parks.

The thing is, that oftentimes these various entities don't have a platform or a means to really communicate with one another, so we've found that in the short time that we've been in existence, which is under two years, that this has really provided that kind of a platform for great connections and amplifying all of the wonderful things that we have here in the Midwest.

- You have annual conferences.

The third one is coming up shortly.

- That's right, actually in June of 2023, from the 15th to the 17th of June, it will be in Prairie du Chien, or Prairie du Chien, as some people like to say, Wisconsin.

- And Charles, you've had the opportunity to be at the past conferences.

- Yes, this has been a long idea of mine to push for exactly what Lisa is able to now to put together.

I always thought that the waterways going from Lake Michigan to the Mississippi River, what we call Upper Louisiana or Illinois Country, were a phenomenal opportunity to put together all those communities which have each a certain amount of, in heritage, a certain part of the heritage of this French Colonial history, so to speak.

So it's a great thing.

We had the first meeting, which was organized in Prairie du Rocher, was a success.

- [Lisa] Which is in Illinois, for those who aren't aware, but they should be.

- [Charles] They should be.

And then the second one in Lafayette.

- [Lisa] Indiana.

- Was phenomenal as well.

So we're looking forward to the third one.

- And this is a seven-state initiative?

- That's correct.

So it makes up the states of Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, and Wisconsin.

I think I did that in alphabetical order.

I try to be ecumenical.

- It's all states, which have the same connection in one way or another.

- So when we talked, you mentioned Upper Louisiana or the Illinois Country, is referred to.

- [Charles] Right, different names under different times.

- Pays being the French word for word for country.

And so, I like the idea of the initiative.

This is something that has been overlooked.

I mean, French history has been overlooked, Todd.

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think, I mean, we talk about British history, we talk about Spanish history, and we talk about American history and then we go up to Quebec for French history.

- I think it's complicated.

It strikes very close to home for me.

I have to say, thanks to genetic testing, it's clear that I am about two-thirds French, my mother's family here in Peoria for about 200 years, primarily being Alsatian, and on my father's side, some of what we call the Old French, from Prairie du Rocher, Kaskaskia, and the original French settlements along the Mississippi, and so for me, it's always been part of my life.

I'll never forget my Schwebel grandparents taking me to Fort de Chartres, which just celebrated its 300th anniversary in 2022.

And as a little boy, it made such an impression on me because at the same time I was busy advocating that we take family vacations to Williamsburg and other Colonial sites back East and yet right here in Illinois, often behind locked doors and brush, we spoke in the last segment about the Fagotte Cemetery here in Tazewell County, is our French heritage, our French Colonial heritage, including for some of us who actually have that family history.

And so I think it's the price of success.

The French have intermarried from day one.

The French also lost the war, the French and Indian War, and we have gone on to prosper, and farm and build, and brew, particularly here in the Midwest, for those centuries since.

- I'd like to offer something to that, too.

All of my adult life, I've lived in the Midwest.

I am a total Francophile.

I love history.

My kids are products of public schools and I've gotta be honest, this is not being taught.

And I'll even add that I was just in France last week and I work regularly through French Heritage Society with my colleagues in France with all kinds of generations.

The new young adults are oftentimes interns working for us and they are not being taught this either.

- [Todd] No, they're not.

- So this is not a question solely about what's happening in the United States.

This is something for one reason or another, that really isn't part of curriculum, part of our consciousness.

And this is really why French Heritage Society has sought out to put together this French Heritage Corridor Initiative because whether you are interested in your French roots or you don't have any French roots, this is really something that belongs to all of us.

It's really our own cultural heritage that overlaps in so many directions, Native people's, as well as people across the pond in Europe and beyond.

And certainly we wanna always remember that this heritage that came into this country in North America, came via Quebec.

- There's a reason, totally different.

The reason why it's not taught in United States is because American history is really centered around the thirteen colonies, period.

So whatever the Spanish part of it, which is immense, is ignored, ignored partially because there's a kind of a bad conscience, let's face it.

A lot of it was conquered and grabbed from Mexico to begin with, through wars.

The part of the French is also linked with the French Indian War and for the French Indian War in United States, the great heroes are the American rangers and whole thing.

So the whole view is totally very much the thirteen colonies and the Anglo Americans.

While for the French, when they have to deal, totally different reason, have to deal with the whole history and when they deal with history, the French in North America become part of the Seven Year War, French Indian War in France, la Guerre de Sept Ans.

Louis the 15th, the disaster, Louis the 15th, with losing in India and North America.

But losing India and North America is really Canada and the part which is south of Canada and north of Louisiana is ignored.

In fact, it was ignored at the time of the Peace Treaty of 1753.

They totally forgot about the territory, said, "Oh, by the way, what do we do with Illinois," and all the way?

So that similar result, but for different reasons, and we are trying to remedy, in our way, and I hope we are going to be successful.

Are we going to be?

I don't know.

- I think it's a wonderful opportunity that really speaks to the moment as well and I'm going to go back to Fort de Chartres again because it is an important colonial site right here in Illinois, but it also culturally represented a meeting place for very, not just the French, but for people from all walks of life and they came there to peacefully trade.

It wasn't a military outpost, and I think it's really important to engage the many communities here in Illinois and in the larger Midwest, and thank you, I share Lisa's point of view that it's not just an Illinois story, it's a Midwestern story.

And as a proud Midwesterner, I think we really can look to our roots, which were firmly based in multiculturalism, certainly, and I think it's something that should be taken up by all school teachers.

- Another point I'd like to make is that oftentimes we get hung up on history and that as a topic is very rich and interesting, but oftentimes there's another component.

It could be as simple as infrastructure.

For instance, you're mentioning Fort de Chartres, or Fort de Chartres, as some people may know it, this is owned and operated by Illinois Department of Natural Resources.

Sometimes it's a question of funding, funds.

One of the things I'm proud to say is that finally the land gate that has been in real, I was there yesterday and fortunately the painting has been done, and it looks fantastic.

But there's all kinds of masonry work that needs to be done and it is scheduled for the spring.

But it took years and years of hard work on the part of volunteers.

Not necessarily, and I'm not trying to sling anything at anybody and criticize, it's just about raising awareness, but I think it took a lot of individuals on the part of people, organizations, like Les Amis du Fort de Chartres, working tirelessly to bring this to the forefront.

French Heritage Society has awarded a grant, actually in 2020, to do work.

- The Colonial Dames and the Society of Colonial Wars both are institutions, which have very seriously funded Fort de Chartres for generations now.

- [Lisa] But unfortunately.

- Their work is little recognized, unfortunately.

- Right, and unfortunately, these things are kind of competing with Abraham Lincoln, the Land of Lincoln and it's oftentimes a matter- - [Todd] We need to join it together.

- Well, for sure, it's a matter of people who don't know about it, may not be visiting.

So some of what the Corridor Initiative is all about is raising awareness so that people are wanting to know about these places and can visit them.

They just simply may not know.

And there is a website on French Heritage Corridors, there is a website with an interactive map and a calendar of events, which we're hoping will not only be a public outreach, but also helping various stakeholders in this seven-state territory to know about what's happening.

Yesterday I was talking to Carol Kuntz of Les Amis du Fort de Chartres who is running their potager or their garden, and she's also excited about finally resurrecting their program where they demonstrate how to run their, how to bake bread.

And it's not just a question of, oh, you take some wheat and you put it in there.

It's an art form that there's a lot of interest so it's a matter of connecting various places.

I know they do this also in Vincennes in Indiana.

There's lots of different places that offer this, but that could work together to, again- - [Todd] In Ste.

Genevieve as well.

- Ste.

Gen, exactly, so there's all kinds of, you know.

- You mentioned Vincennes, Indiana.

There's a big national monument to George Rogers Clark.

He was a Virginian and when we talk about history in schools, we overlook the French influence and we talk about George Rogers Clark in, I think it was called Fort Sack at the time, in Vincennes, and he came over and he established the Northwest Territory, in simple terms.

Well, he was an American, and we forget about the French influence.

And I wanna talk more about French influence.

Charles, Todd earlier mentioned the Alsatians, and this was later, but Alsatians came to Illinois.

- The Alsatian came after the Franco-Prussian War, which was a defeat of the French at the hand of Prussia in with annexation by Alsase and the German-speaking part of Lothringen or Lorraine by Germany.

At that time, a number of Alsatian immigrated.

Many went to Algeria and quite a few came to Illinois.

I know for instance, the large number went to Milwaukee.

I was not familiar with Alsatian coming to Peoria, but Milwaukee, and again, they are in a regional history if any mention is made, because those Alsatian were German speaker, they were automatically sort of annexed to the German immigration.

I don't know about the situation in Peoria, but I know in Milwaukee- - Well, I can only speak for my own family knowledge, my great grandfather, who was the nearest immigrant in my history, came as a German-speaking Alsatian to avoid conscription in the German army, as I understand.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- In 1890.

- So it's a part, can we consider this as a as a part of the francophone?

I don't know, but certainly it's a complicated part of French history, so to speak.

But you know, what you are referring to, the key to a success is going to be the school teachers.

And there's a great tool, which has been used many times, is a history fair.

Now, I don't know if they have a history fair in a grade school and high school in Peoria, but if you want to get some motivation and you want to get some success, work with local principals and the local, what you call social studies, because there's no history teaches now, they're social study teachers and try to organize history fair centered around the history of their communities.

And then you will have something which never happens.

You have children will talk to their grandparents, which unusual, and then maybe you'll get some traction.

And that's a whole idea.

I think is a tool which I have been tried to use.

I tried to use once in Ste.

Genevieve with some success.

And that's something which can be, can be done.

- One of, one of the challenges in Ste.

Genevieve and Fort de Chartres are far afield from population centers of central Illinois and certainly Chicago.

And so I think it's exciting because to bring history alive, I just can't tell you, the Rendezvous, the annual Rendezvous at Fort de Chartres, is so exciting for children.

I've been there with kids of, from small to large, and they are enthused when they see history come to life.

And it's pageantry, and it's colors, and the flags, and the guns, and the weaving, and the spinning wheels, and the animals, and the costumes.

I mean, kids are just enthralled with that.

And if there's a way that we can- - [Lisa] Even big kids.

- Yeah, right, of all generations.

- It's totally right.

You know, its reenactment.

And I was in academia for many, many years and my colleagues looked their nose up when I was talking about reenactment.

I said if you really want to understand how a battle would be engaged, try to see how long it takes to load and reload the musket, try to see how long it takes to walk from point A to point B and by the reenacters, and then you will have a better understanding of the history you are teaching.

Try to understand how, what it took to bake bread.

- [Todd] Right.

- How long it took to have, the clothing or to deal with furs.

- [Todd] Right.

And, but the reenacters doing a phenomenal job.

And the reenacters are essential in my opinion, in what we are doing.

- Yeah, and you know we've mentioned Rendezvous at Fort de Chartres.

- [Charles] The Rendezvous are great.

- But actually this is an incredible amount of offerings.

So for example, in early October, it's been happening for over 50 years in Lafayette, Indiana, the Feast of the Hunter's Moon.

- A phenomenal feast.

- I think they counted over 46,000 people were there over the course of a weekend.

It, I went two years ago.

And it is not to be missed.

And these are the kinds of things that you can go, bring your family, it's a nominal cost, you don't have to dress up and participate if you don't want to.

You can just partake and learn and enjoy.

It's entertaining, it's delicious.

- [Todd] You can observe.

- Yeah, it's fun.

And you learn.

- [Wayne] Well, this is to the point then.

- Yeah.

- Learning from a book isn't the only way to learn.

- [Lisa] That is for sure.

Well, we got a lot of.

- Except for mine.

(laughs) - Well, okay, I'm sorry.

- Charles Balesi - It's a commercial, people.

- "The Time of the French in the Heart of North America," by Charles Balesi.

There's your plug okay, go ahead, Todd.

- Well, as a visual person, I restore houses and gardens and design and build them.

And so I think in technicolor, and I think of my favorite places, my favorite places, Fort de Chartres, Ste.

Genevieve, the house museums, the gardens, the people surrounding them, and I can see all of that.

- [Lisa] Brings it to life.

As I say, I was fortunate enough to be exposed to that as very little boy.

And it's certainly shaped me, and I only hope that we have the opportunity for it to shape others.

- One of the problems we have here in Central Illinois is that Fort Creve Coeur, whether it's in the right location or not, it's not important.

It's the idea that that fort existed at one time, in 1680.

And unfortunately, that fort is now shuttered, over in Creve Coeur.

And if we could get that reopened and help kids learn about French history.

It's not just the fort.

They can learn about French history.

And we don't have a lot of, on the last program, I mentioned Tonti Circle.

I've been advised that there's another French Street, at DuSable, is a street three or four blocks long, both of them on the south end of Peoria.

But if you don't have these things to go to, - [Lisa] Yeah.

- How do we learn about French history?

And that's the challenge for the initiative.

Not just in Peoria, but in seven states.

- That's right, and oftentimes we get kind of locked into the French Colonial period, but if we talk about French culture, the French language existing in the Midwest, sometimes we can talk well into the 20th century.

In Missouri, in Vieille Mine or Old Mines, that is a community that has a rich tradition, both musical and oral.

Sometimes again, we don't have tangible, something we hold, but that doesn't mean that there's not a rich, something to latch onto.

- Think for instance, in Peoria, La Ville de Maillet.

- La Ville de Maillet, a is an example, because of when to tell the French Colony story, it's over in 1763.

However it continues, it continues all around because those French people are there, did not disappear.

- [Wayne] That's right.

They remained, and except, of course when you had the great removal of the Native American and many French people being married to Native American left, that the case in Willmette near Chicago in 1831.

You'd always talk about the Trail of Tears.

But we had our own Trail of Tears right here in the Midwest.

So you have all this part of history, which is part of the French called tradition historically, no longer really Colonial, but always part of it.

And that's extreme important.

We have, in Bourbonnais on November 15th we are going to inaugurate officially, the log school built in 1837, when- - Reconstruction.

- Reconstruction, some of the logs are saved.

Half of them are saved.

And who were those people, the people who came from the Montreal villages all around Montreal who came to the Kankakee River Valley because they had some French connection.

Are they French Colonial?

No, they are no longer French Colonial, but it's still part of the overflow of Quebec.

So there's a continuum.

- It's a French, la francophone, the French speakers and the and the cultural traditions that go along with it.

That's something that, you know, oftentimes, again, you know, I'm talking about thinking about Fort de Chartres and the potager, sometimes people will come and say, huh, you mean the raised bed tradition, having a raised bed and planting like this, is a French tradition, or maybe European, had no idea.

There's certain things that all of us do that we don't know why we do it.

It's just sort of passed on from our families.

And there are these connections that we just don't realize that they're there.

- And let's hope that this program and last week's program is impetus for us to learn more about French history, not just in Central Illinois, but the entire Midwest area, because it is rich in French history.

Let me say thank you to Lisa Kahn, who's the director of the French Heritage Corridor Initiative, to Charles Balesi, who has studied this issue for years.

And also to Todd Schwebel, a historian based in Chicago.

And we thank you all three for the conversation.

We hope you continue the conversation in your home and take an effort to learn more about our rich French history, here in Central Illinois.

Next time on "At Issue," it is the 50th anniversary of the Congress passing the Equal Rights Amendment, and submitted to the states for votes.

We know the story, we're gonna talk about the future of the Equal Rights Amendment on the next "At Issue."

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