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♪ ♪ David: hi, everybody.

Welcome to "Chat Box."

I'm David Cruz.

Budget season is winding down and we have avoided the possibility of a government shutdown, but the devil is in the details bid we will get to those and talk about the status of a long-standing lawsuit with a plaintiff and author of a study on the issue.

But we begin the day with our special guest, the governor of New Jersey taking a few minutes to hand with a spirit governor, has been a bit.

Governor Murphy: before we dive in, I want to wish you a happy 30th anniversary in this line of business.

You have done an extraordinary job.

David: I appreciate that.

You caught me offguard, but thank you.

Before we get going, can you talk about the economic impact of the I-95 collapse in Philadelphia on New Jersey?

Governor Murphy: it is a good question.

It is certainly unwelcome.

We are working closely with the governor, with Pete Buttigieg and his team.

It will mean more traffic It will mean more traffic % through New Jersey, certainly, therefore more emissions.

I was heartened to see governor Shapiro's statements yesterday that they will be working 24-7 to come up with a workaround.

But it is the most trafficed artery in the United States, the Northeast corridor of I-95.

It will have more of an impact in Pennsylvania than with us, but God willing we will get to a better place sooner rather than later.

David: we talked about the budget in the intro, and we have seen reporting that the assembly speaker and your team are seeing more I to I -- eye to eye on STay and J.

An analysis shows well-to-do seniors would benefit the most from the program.

You mentioned weeks ago that you had a concern about that.

What has changed in your mind about the program?

Governor Murphy: first of all, we enjoyed a great relationship working with the speaker and a Senate President, so when you start with a relationship like the one we have, it is shared values.

We are focused on affordability.

The budget would mean we would have delivered 18 tax cuts to the middle class and seniors in the last six years, and this is something we share.

If we can find a way to tweak the affordability for our seniors, we are very much open to that.

We do that already, by the way.

And I think the anchor program already covers about 90% of senior homeowners and renters.

If we can get that number a little bit higher or give it more, we can do it in the context of fiscal responsibility, I am open minded.

We can never go back to the battle days when we had a pile of money and immediately spent it, then it started to rain and we were looking for the money and it wasn't there.

That is something to avoid at all costs.

But within that parameter we are open to finding ways to deliver even more affordability.

David: do I hear you say you are not the area?

-- not there yet?

Governor Murphy: we are working for racially and we will continue to do so.

David: we will sprinkle in some questions from viewers here.

Trees partition and of the environment have been high on people's minds.

It says you are "squandering an incredible opportunity to lead on transportation in the last of the climate crisis in the densest state in the union by tripling down on fossil fuel infrastructure."

This is about the Turnpike extension through Hudson County.

To mucho -- too emphasis on cars and not on mass transit?

Are you still behind the expansion?

Governor Murphy: that is ridiculous.

Look at every American state over the past six years and I guarantee you the facts prove this out, we have the number one environmental record of any American state since we got into office.

Am I still for the Turnpike expansion, yes.

Because in a few years, the cars going through that expansion, the highway, will be electric.

And this is like saying you have got a fear of a horse and buggy economy.

Those days are behind us.

Whatever this person said about tripling down, give me a break, we have the biggest offshore wind program in America, a huge solar community, the strongest environmental justice law in America.

We still have to call balls and strikes on each one of these plans and projects in the context of the law.

At is something I cannot avoid.

Bu I willt put our record up against anybody's.

David: wy not go -- why not go big and provide an incentive for e-bikes that take cars off the road at least locally?

Governor Murphy: we have a significant e-bike program.

Jersey City has one of the biggest in the country per capita.

But we are the driving force behind the two extra rail tunnels finally being built under the Hudson River that will take an enormous amount of folks off of the road.

I have only -- I have finally gotten the Port Authority bus terminal built, which will make it a lot easier for folks to get on electric in the future, the buses.

So it is an all of the above approach.

I wish there was one easy switch to flip on any of this stuff.

There usually isn't, so we are taking an all of the above approach.

David: transit, you said you would fix it or it would kill you.

Still no dedicated funding source and you are facing a billion-dollar shortfall, over reportedly for a big lease in this very building owned by supporters of your campaign.

It is not killing you, but none of those headlines are good news are they?

Governor Murphy: the connection with my campaign is ridiculous, I have never spoken to them about where their headquarters would be.

And I do not think that people -- when I am on a platform, and I am not on a platform as much as I used to be, not one person said where do we stand on dedicated funding?

People want service on time, that is safe, reliable, and NJ transit has turned its situation around completely.

Look what they did with the Taylor Swift concerts, with Ed Sheeran over the weekend.

170,000 people over two nights, not all of them on NJ transit, but their performance is up.

Have we had a fiscal challenges, yes.

They have to solve a riddle like every other mass transit company has to solve in the country, we are no exception.

But if the service is not there, if the manpower is not there, it will not matter.

NJ transit deserves a lot of credit for the distance traveled, the quality of their team, the quality of the performance -- it is not perfect, no organization is.

But clearly we still have fiscal challenges to work through and we will do that.

David: you say nobody has complained to you about dedicated funding source, but it was certainly a topic of conversation at recent budget hearings.

Is that something you are engaging in or is it something that the legislature will have to deal with?

Governor Murphy: we are engaging absolutely, but my point is this -- if the customers are not safe, happy and feeling like we have a reliable product, almost nothing else matters.

If we are going to fund a losing operation, I cannot begin to start that conversation.

O the other handn, if you are talking about funding a winning organization with top-quality performance, which it has become, then that is a conversation that we can, should and must have.

David: should there be a conversation right now about fair hikes, maybe next year?

Governor Murphy: we cannot go on forever with keeping them flat.

We will face at that another day.

Let's get over the goal line.

David: on the corporate business tax surcharge can be used said a promise is a promise, but some are asking where was the promise formed, who was in the room and why are taxpayers on the hook for paying for it?

Governor Murphy: this is not directed at you, but I do not even know what that means.

The fact is we inherited a fiscal mess.

This State was broken.

We said, we are going to go to the corporate community as written large, and ask of the big players to help us bridge into a better tomorrow.

And in exchange, we wanted them to stay in New Jersey and believe in New Jersey.

And we will be true to our word, and we need them to be true to their word.

If we lifted their surcharge, they have committed to jobs and investment in New Jersey.

And it will come from them at an even more accelerated pace.

A deal is a deal.

We were a state that everybody used to trust 30 or 40 years ago.

We said what we -- we did what we said we would do.

Then we lost our way on both sides of the aisle, fiscally irresponsible and do could not trust us.

We did not make our pension payments.

Affordability went haywire.

We I've got to draw a line under better behavior and never go back to those days.

David: a little politics, we heard you begging Democrats to get a move on when it comes to the elections.

You got thousands more Democrats than Republicans in the state.

I will not ask if you are the poem because your poll numbers are actually pretty good, but what is the cause of concern?

Governor Murphy: it is a good point.

I mentioned it at the state Democratic Party meeting recently, and again the other night.

I do not know, I cannot put my finger on it, but do you remember that movie "network?"

It reminds me of 2016.

People are not sure who they are upset at, but they know they had a pandemic, which was lousy, the remote learning, you had to do this and that, inflation, supply chain, and so maybe a recession around the corner.

One thing after another.

When you are like that Camille look at incumbents.

And -- like that, you look at incumbents.

And the party in power.

Even if it is unrelated.

And that was my message to Democrats, we cannot take one vote or race for granted.

We need to be at the edge of our seats and remind people of the good news is that is how people feel.

The good news is we have a story to tell.

We are the ones on the right side of history.

We are at the kitchen table with working families.

We are the ones with a record of providing solutions.

That was my point.

Sit on the edge of your seat, do not take anything for granted, and tell your story proudly and God willing we will see.

David: we have a twice indicted president who seems to surge in the polls every time he is indicted, and a former New Jersey governor who has committed to taking him on.

What kind of role can Chris Christie play in this upcoming process?

Governor Murphy: Chris Christie is not my guy.

Joe Biden is my guy.

Having said that, I think that people underestimate Chris.

He is good at prosecuting a political argument.

And he is completely 1000% right about President Trump and the indictment.

I am referring to the documents.

That all the other Republicans are attacking institutions that are the umpires, that call balls and strikes, and a half for 250 years.

Asa Hutchinson, and a dear friend, former president -- the re's too few voices in the party speaking truth to power, and Chris is one of them.

David: we will be talking to a plaintiff in the school segregation suit against the state.

I know you are not commenting on the suit specifically, but are you comfortable with the level of diversity in the public school system?

Governor Murphy: I cannot comment on it.

Number two, we have no choice but to defend cases like this.

We did not wake up one day to try to figure out if we should try to defend this or not.

We are required by law to defend it.

I think that anyone who knows me knows that I stand completely for equal justice, social justice.

We also know that a big contributor, the biggest in fact, to any segregation in schools is location.

And whether or not folks can afford to be in one community or another.

It is why I created the wealth disparity task force, why I have proposed a huge chunk of money to put into the first homeowner buyer fund.

Both of them disproportionately impact black and brown communities in our state.

David: Governor Phil Murphy, it is good to see you.

We will see you out there.

Ok, let's dive into the New Jersey schools segregation suit, a case that was originally brought in 2018 and has moved slowly through the courts.

There is hope a decision is coming.

One of the original plaintiffs is with us, president emeritus of the Latino action network.

Please welcome Christian.

Welcome.

Christian: thank you.

David: Charles Payne is the director of the Cornwall center and the, co-author of the study "segregated schooling in New Jersey."

Welcome.

Charles: thank you for having me.

David: Christian, this case goes back to 2018.

Can you tell us the origin?

Why was the case filed?

Christian: because we have been noticing for a long time the disparate treatment that poor students of color have been receiving.

And the previous remedies were not addressing it.

When we looked at the underlying factors leading to these disparities, we saw it had a lot to do with segregation in the schools.

A 2017 report confirmed our concerns and it showed New Jersey was one of the most segregated states in the nation paired we felt we had to address it.

And in 1954, Brown V education was supposed to do away with this, but in New Jersey towns found a way around Brown V board, so we filed this lawsuit on the anniversary of Brown V education in order to apply the New Jersey Constitution to fix that work around people had been doing in order to violate Brown.

David: what is the question before the court right now?

You are not asking the court to make this decision right now, is this a procedural question?

What is happening before the judge?

Christian: we think the data speaks for itself.

Anybody that goes into any of these cities where it is predominantly poor Black and Latino students can see the stark segregation.

All the other districts are majority white.

The vast majority of black and brown students go to schools and there are a minority.

We want the courts to find they state liable for violating its own Constitution.

David: Professor, your study is co-authored, we should mention, found what about the disparities and outcomes for children trying to learn under current conditions in New Jersey schools?

Charles: it confirmed what my colleague just said, that virtually every aspect of education we could find data on, children going to segregated school environments in the state of New Jersey have it worse than the children not going to segregated -- nonsegregated schools.

If we talk about discipline at these schools, if you talk about how often teachers come to school, talking about children having access to high-quality courses, to rigorous courses, STEM courses, in all those respects the segregated environments are greatly impacted.

Sometimes the numbers are dramatically different.

They are greatly inferior to the nonsegregated schools.

David: the UCLA report found what, that black kids were going to schools where they were mostly black kids, predominantly black kids, Latino kids as well in white kids were going to schools where they had mostly white kids, is that right?

Charles: yes, but the point that was made earlier about New Jersey is it was the sixth most segregated state.

David: the racial, ethnic disparities in schools really follow patterns of housing and economic inequities.

The state argues those are conditions beyond the scope of the suit.

Would you agree or disagree?

Christian: I disagree.

I think the state has an obligation under the Constitution to address segregation in any form and however it comes about.

The reality is when Brown V board of education started to be applied in the 1960's after several lawsuits with Booker versus the city of Plainfield, what happened is people started to flee urban areas and white people started to move into the suburbs and used redlining and other racially motivated techniques to keep people of color from moving in behind them.

So what you ended up with was pockets of concentrated poverty, which created generations of in equity and disparity.

David: professor, most recently the state argued the entire education system in New Jersey would have to be raised to the ground and rebuilt brick by brick, figuratively and most likely literally as well.

As you look at what fixes might follow a victory in this case, is the state right about that?

How big of a job would it be to fix this problem?

Charles: I do not think we should engage with that kind of rhetoric.

At this point it is silly, it is intended to make it seem like it is a problem that cannot be solved.

I want to go back to a point my colleague made and underscore it.

Under the Constitution of the state, my understanding is this is the only state with this, it is illegal.

It does not say it is illegal if it is brought by this fact or this fact.

Educational segregation is a legal in the state, that is where we should begin the conversation -- illegal in the state, that is where we should begin the conversation.

Of course you do not have to tear down everything to move to a better place.

One thing that is certainly possible in a state where money still talks, is the state can create financial incentives for districts that reduces segregation within the district or across districts.

That is entirely plausible.

The state can also begin quality resourcing to those schools.

David: what kind of remedies, Christian, do you think are possible, both in the short term and long term?

Christian: a lot of the things needed are already available to the state.

The state already has several regional school districts.

My kids go to regional schools where they combine kids from different towns.

Towns get together in order to share resources and educate all the time.

We can do this in a way that is inclusive of kids up all economic backgrounds, and it is not just good for the black and Latino kids, it is good for the white kids too, to grow up in the diversity they will face when they go out into the workforce.

So they can be learning next to kids from different backgrounds, and see that they are human just like them, and they are just as talented.

And that will make for a better New Jersey and better America.

David: Professor, I know you do not want to engage with the kind of rhetoric we heard from the state about how difficult it is going to be, but how long do you think it will take to implement the kind of changes that would be necessary to fix this problem?

Charles: when you say how long it will take I do not think there is a space for answering that.

Something like regionalization, which is an excellent way to think about the problem, that would take years given how invested school districts are in their local autonomy.

So we would need clarity on how much political will there is.

That is what we will find when the Supreme Court makes its decision.

David: is there political will out there?

Christian: to go back to the previous question about how long it will take.

The question we ask is how many generations of kids we will leave behind because we do not want to deal with this problem.

We need to start moving on it.

We are in court because we do not think that the legislature will do it on its own and we need the courts to make the decision here.

David: important change has to be forced upon those who are reluctant.

Christian: that is right.

David: Christian and Charles, thank you for joining us.

The Spotlight news team is also examining segregation in our schools as part of a project called, segregated.

Visit the website to learn more about the history, the challenges and what some communities are doing to address the issue, including notable successes in New Jersey and across the country.

Be sure to check out the segregated project launching the week of June 26.

That is "Chat Box" this week.

You can find me on twitter and get fresh content every day when you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

I am David Cruz.

From the entire crew, thank you for watching.

We will see you next week.

>> major funding for "Chat Box" with David Cruz is provided by NJM Insurance Group, serving the insurance needs of New Jersey residents and businesses for more than 100 years.

Promotional support provided by Insider NJ, a political intelligence network dedicated to New Jersey political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players an interactive forum for ideas, discussion and insight.

Online at insidernj.com.

♪