>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made in the detention of a pregnant woman in the city of Rochester, or in the detention of a 17 year old who is days away from high school graduation or in the attempt to detain two roofers on Westminster Drive in the city.

Rochester has not had a situation like Minneapolis, for example, with the surge of Ice agents conducting deportation raids.

But Rochester has seen plenty of ice activity.

Our region has.

The Trump administration sued the city of Rochester over its sanctuary city policy last year, but a judge threw out that lawsuit in November.

And so the administration is trying to sue again.

And amidst all of this is a question what is a compassionate approach to immigration?

Should that be a priority for the federal government, for local law enforcement, for communities?

If so, what would that look like?

The Monroe County Sheriff's Office is participating in a community forum on the subject, and we are discussing that subject with our guests who are joining the Mercy Spirituality Center upcoming event.

We're going to tell you all about that.

The executive director of the Mercy Spirituality Center is Bridget Ryan, who is with us.

Thank you for making time for us.

>> My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.. >> Next to Bridget is deputy Ray Ruiz community liaison for the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.

Thank you for being here, deputy.

>> Thank you for having us, sir.

>> And welcome to Esma Nacakgedigi, who is an attorney and immigration services manager at the Rochester Refugee Resettlement Services.

Esma, thank you for being here as well.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So, Bridget, tell us what's coming up this weekend and why you're doing this.

Now, first of all.

>> Thank you.

So upcoming this Sunday at Saint Anne's Church on Mount Hope Avenue.

We are having a program sponsored by our Our Women of Peace events, which is called blessed are the peacemakers, and we have brought together members of the community who have all different roles in the immigration and, uh, caring for the community element of this issue.

And we're going to be talking about what it means for Rochester to be a sanctuary city, what resources exist for folks.

And in light of what has happened, you know, on our televisions in different places around the country, what we've witnessed to let the public know, let our own community members know what role they could have, how they can be supportive, how they can help, and what they may face here.

>> So I think when you talk about the response to immigration and what a compassionate response would be, certainly in this country, you'd get a range of responses.

>> Absolutely.

>> You will have people in this community who say that, you know, we need a sanctuary city policy, that we need to protect people, that deportation is immoral.

And you'll have people who say that the border issue was a crisis, that it was unsolved, that a compassionate response could could include detention and deportation.

Maybe it might look a little different than what we've seen in Minneapolis, but that would be on the menu for a program that would be a better way to serve this country.

I mean, there's going to be a range of views, right?

>> Absolutely.

>> So how do you kind of grapple with that?

>> Well, one of the things that we are going to address, I'm delighted that Mr.

Beith from the city's Corporation Counsel.

>> Office is going to.

>> Yeah, he's going to join us because that phrase gets tossed around a lot about Rochester being a sanctuary city.

But for the general public, do you understand what that means and what the guidelines are for that?

The limitations, because they're still certainly going to be limitations.

It's not a free for all.

And so if we can get a better understanding, um, as to what that means and therefore what guidelines exist under it, it's going to go, um, to helping educate the perception.

>> Okay.

Sure.

And I, the way I read the, the advanced notes on your event here on Sunday imply to me that your feeling is that we currently do not have a compassionate response to immigration.

Is that fair?

>> I think there's a lot of well, there are a number the same number of opinions as there are citizens.

Um, and no matter how closely aligned people might think they are, I think everyone is just a little bit different.

So, um, I think, I believe that we should be welcoming people, but that's my personal opinion.

I just want to make sure that no one in our community feels that they are at risk just for their presence.

>> Yeah.

And so I think before we get to Deputy Ruiz here, I want to ask Esma, um, who is an attorney and an immigration services manager with Refugee Resettlement Services.

Tell me how you see, would you describe what you've seen in the last year and a half as, um, a compassionate response to the immigration problem?

>> So in a local level, um, I see that a lot.

I mean, we see a lot of people approaching us and asking, what can we do?

How can we, you know, support the immigrants, uh, refugee groups, uh, tell us what to do.

How can we, uh, you know, coordinate, uh, you know, drivers, how can we recruit people to teach English?

Uh, for example, for the Haitian groups, you know, we have, unfortunately, a lot of uncertainties going on with the Haitians.

Uh, Haitian TPS, uh, status.

And, uh, we have, you know, many Haitian families are, uh, afraid to go out even to go for groceries.

So we have a group of people who offered their service, uh, of, you know, bringing food to our organization.

And then we, uh, some volunteers are regrouping those groceries and then they are driving back to the families.

So this is kind of a symbol of compassionate approach.

Uh, but I think, uh, compassionate approach requires, uh, proactive, uh, step.

I mean, it's the, uh, people needs to take extra miles, go extra miles to show the compassion.

Otherwise, uh, compassion.

Otherwise, you know, um, from what they see, what they watch, uh, the news, it's hard to, you know, get that feeling.

So for the local level, uh, with the people that we are facing, uh, we see that, but I cannot say that for the national level, for everyone.

Yeah.

>> Okay.

And, uh, a couple of things, Bridget, just to hit on here, you mentioned that Patrick Beef will be part of the event.

He is the City of Rochester attorney.

And and he made some remarks to WXXI in December.

Um, when the Trump administration moved to sort of refile their lawsuit against the city of Rochester.

Just a brief snapshot there.

Um, the original Trump administration lawsuit said the following that the city's laws and policies as designed interfere with and discriminate against the federal government's enforcement of the federal immigration law in violation of the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution.

And, uh, the administration lawsuit criticized Mayor Evans by name.

City Council President Malik Evans by name.

Um, and, uh, and they were, I'm sorry.

Miguel Meléndez, uh, the city council president, this was a back and forth that looked like it was done in November when a judge came and threw out the lawsuit.

But essentially the judge was saying, look, uh, I don't want to sum it up.

I'm not a lawyer.

Maybe Esma could do that better than I could, but the Trump administration interpreted this as saying, hey, we can refile here under different grounds and still sue.

So that could be still active.

We don't know what's going to happen.

Patrick Beith has said that he thinks that they're going to the Trump administration will lose the second time.

The way they lost the first time, I don't know.

I think it will be interesting to get his take.

He'll be part of your event now.

There are going to be people, though, who will email me today who say, why do we need a compassionate response?

If someone breaks the law, comes across the border and they're not documented.

Compassion is not what's required.

Enforcement is what's required.

What do you say to that?

>> Well, I think one thing too, that we all need to remember is that at some point in our own history, our families came to this country, whatever the channel, whatever the circumstances, they came, they have a life and settled and built up their own lives.

And I think we need to remember that it's no different now.

And what the reasons that people are coming here could be very similar.

Um, I think they should be entitled.

I, I think they just need to let the system work.

There are policies, there are ways of going about things.

There are laws in effect, um, a procedures that should be followed.

And if those are not followed, that's one thing.

But let the system play play out through through the different cases.

>> All right.

So let me get Deputy Ruiz's take here from the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.

First of all, um what is the department's approach to working, for example, with Ice on immigration issues right now.

>> Working with Ice on immigration issues.

>> Or working with federal agents of any kind?

Ice?

Et cetera.

>> Uh, we are not in the business of civil immigration.

Um, enforcement at all.

Um, our primary focus is on keeping our community safe.

Uh, your documentation is really of no importance to us.

The fact, the mere fact that you live in Monroe County, that you are conducting business in Monroe County, that you are taking your children to school, going shopping at Wegmans, tops, all these wherever you go shopping that you're living your day to day life here, you need to feel safe in that community.

Our job, our primary focus is on community safety and making sure those residents feel safe and that they're not victimized.

And if they are victimized, that they know that they can call 911, that they're going to get response from local police, local town police or the sheriff's department, depending on where they live or what the circumstances of their location, and that they're going to get serviced.

And their immigration status is not going to be asked.

There's not going to be any follow through, any referrals made to Ice.

Um, for, for you calling for assistance.

>> Okay, but there's a difference between saying we're not going to ask you your immigration status.

We're not going to actively seek that out.

And we're not just going to call up ice.

But if Ice calls you and says we need assistance on something, as sometimes they do with local authorities, what do you do?

>> Uh, that depends on on what you mean by assistance.

Now, let's say it's a situation where, um, they're, they're trying to enforce, uh, whatever their policies are.

And, you know, uh, a situation where public safety is compromised and, you know, there's people who are behaving in a way that's, that can be untoward or that's unsafe.

Um, let's say people get aggressive about how, you know, they demonstrate or they get into the interference, interfering, physically interfering.

Um, you obviously have the right to demonstrate, you obviously have the right to protest, but what?

No one has the right to sit there and interfere with, uh, law enforcement, uh, in pursuit of their duties.

Now, if the sheriff is actually responding or the police are responding, it's usually in a crowd control kind of capacity to make sure that the residents are safe as well as, uh, ice being able to do their business.

That is not an endorsement of what they're doing.

What we're doing is trying to create a safe environment for everybody who is present at that time.

>> Okay.

I think I understand, but let me just make sure I push a little bit here.

So when the Trump administration in court paperwork says the following, I'm curious to know if you agree.

They said, quote, state and local governments do not have an untrammeled right to forbid all voluntary cooperation by their officials with federal immigration authorities.

End quote.

Do you agree with that?

>> I'm going to follow the policies and procedures that have been set forth by the Monroe County Sheriff as my employer.

And we're going to follow the US Constitution, New York State Constitution.

And basically right now, the way the law is written, the way our policies are written, we're not going to get involved in the civil side of that.

Now, if there were a criminal, uh, part of that, let's say that there's a judge or a magistrate that signs a federal warrant, that's different.

That doesn't apply to, uh, immigrants in terms of their, um, their sanctuary city policies, sanctuary state policies.

If there's a judge or magistrate who signs a criminal warrant, that's a lot different than what Ice is doing, what the federal government is doing with the civil side of enforcement.

If there's a criminal matter involved in terms of a judge or a magistrate signing a piece of paper, then then in that case, there may be assistance.

But if it's not under those guys, under that guise where it's actually a judge or a magistrate, and, you know, our policies are firm, they're written, uh, training goes on.

This is repeated to us.

It's in our general orders, it's in our bulletins.

So, um, the average, uh, officer on the street understands these things.

>> Okay.

After the, the shooting deaths in Minneapolis of Renee Good and Alex Pretti, um, I, I saw a memo from Chief Deputy Michael Fowler in the department dated February 10th about the Monroe County Sheriff's Office committed to upholding the law and ensuring public safety while recognizing that civil immigration enforcement is the responsibility of federal agencies.

Was it your sense, deputy, that after what happened in Minneapolis, there needed to be sort of an amplification of policy?

Was there any change in policy that you were aware of in your department?

>> I think with the with the change of of administration on a federal level, things were obviously different under a Biden administration than it is under a Trump administration.

Um, Ice obviously, uh, as you can follow through the news got a lot more aggressive in terms of their, um, enforcement policies and, uh, precisely what the sheriff's department is looking to do.

The sheriff is not to have situations like that repeat themselves in our vicinity, in our area.

And that's going to be done through educating our public, um, and trying to make sure that people understand what the role of law enforcement is.

Local law enforcement, we're interested in local crimes, local enforcement, local safety, not what the government priorities are in the civil side of the immigration policy.

>> Yeah, I think consistent with what you have said about your department's policy, I just want to read a few points from that February memo.

Uh, M-c-s-o the Monroe County Sheriff's Office may assist federal agencies when criminal charges or a judicial warrant is in place.

Yes, sir.

M-c-s-o only has the authority to execute warrants that are signed by a judge or magistrate, not immigration detainers or administrative warrants.

MCso will continue to engage in coordination and information sharing with federal law enforcement authorities regarding criminal investigations.

Under our existing policies and protocols, as well as back them up in officer safety situations.

MCso will avoid being drawn into or becoming part of an immigration roundup or other proactive mass immigration enforcement effort, end quote.

So consistent with everything you've told me, that's what the memo says.

No surprise here, but I just want to make sure I understand something.

Yes, sir.

I don't know what the leadership of Ice would say, but if they said, look, we understand it's if there's something signed by a judge or magistrate, that's one thing.

But if our agents are telling you that we have Intel that's valuable and that your cooperation would be helpful even if we don't have something signed by a judge, why not help Ice?

>> That's that's a lot of what ifs.

Um, and unfortunately, um, I would imagine that every situation has its own nuance.

Um, if what they're saying is we have information on a, on a criminal matter, but the civil part of or excuse me, the immigration part of that, if it's one of a civil nature, we are still not going to get involved.

Now, if they're saying, you know, X, Y, Z is conducting criminal, um, activity and it's something that goes against the, our state laws, our local laws, the way they're written, then obviously, you know, that's a different scenario.

But in terms of, you know, participation with Ice in any way, shape or form, it's going to be, um, for, for criminal and, you know, the, the way it's written now in our policies and everything else, there's a lot of accountability that's been put into place.

The average deputy on the street, the average, uh, law enforcement person at the street level is not going to make a decision to, to contact or to work with Ice.

Now, let me give you a quick example of what I mean.

I'm a deputy between me and a captain is deputy corporal.

Sergeant, lieutenant, then a captain.

So imagine me standing on the ground level, and then you look in five stories up.

That's the level of accountability that is put into place to ensure that our policies are followed.

Now, captains are going to be reporting to the Monroe County Sheriff on a daily basis.

The sheriff is going to know what's going on.

There's accountability to make sure that we follow our rules and our procedures, and that we do what we say that we're going to do, so that the public can trust what we say.

The public can know that when the Monroe County Sheriff's Office or other local law enforcement shows up, that we are who we say we are and we do what we say we do.

>> Tell me if I'm interpreting part of this correctly.

So it's not meant to disrespect Ice or federal agents who might call or talk to a deputy and say, we've got Intel, help us out.

It's to say we have a protocol, and it goes all the way from the bottom to the top.

And the expectation from every level is that we follow the protocol.

It's not to disrespect you, but without an order from a judge or a magistrate, we're not riding in somewhere because Ice called us.

Is that a fair way to describe it?

>> That's a fair way to describe it.

The average, uh, deputy or law enforcement person on the street is going to probably immediately contact one of their supervisors.

Should Ice get involved with with the local person.

We those decisions have been taken out of our hands for accountability purposes.

Sure.

Because the public is going to demand from officials like the sheriff who's actually elected by the population.

He is the only law enforcement official, um, in terms of like a cop who's elected, you know, any chief is, is going to be assigned by the town supervisor or by the mayor, uh, Malik Evans uh, the sheriff is actually elected.

So people, I think, I think fairly or unfairly, people demand a little more or expect a little more because, you know, they, they pull his name on the ballot box the same way that if your congressperson or your assembly person, your legislator is not representing what you think you would call that legislator and that, that, that, that congressperson and be like, hey, man, you know, I'm not in agreement with this.

And their office would respond to you and in kind and try to address those concerns.

>> Okay.

Last couple of things before we turn to our other guests.

And I see we've got phone calls.

I'm sure we'll have some emails.

We're talking about an event at the Mercy Spirituality Center that's happening on Sunday, and that's why our guests are here.

Deputy Ray Ruiz will be there at that event representing the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.

There's a section in bold in this memo, and I want to read the bold section to you where it says, members again from the Sheriff's Department memo members will not cause an unreasonable delay to release any individual from our custody solely to allow federal agencies to execute a civil immigration detainer or administrative warrant.

End quote.

Why was that in bold, and how would you describe the meaning of that?

>> I would describe the meaning of that as crystal clear.

For anybody who's reading that memo, which is more than likely going to be somebody who is a member of the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.

Um, we're, we're not going to hold or detain somebody.

So that quote, unquote, Ice can pick them up.

Hey, we'll be there in 15 minutes.

Can you hold on to Joe Smith?

No, sir.

Once their business is done, if there isn't a warrant signed by a judge or magistrate, that person's going to walk out that door.

If you want to chase him down Exchange Street, you want to chase him down.

Plymouth.

You know that's up to you.

>> But you know, deputy, there are some people who will say, well, hold them for 15 minutes.

ISIS probably got a reason to want to talk to them.

Why wouldn't you do that?

>> Who would say that?

>> There are plenty of Americans who would say.

>> That they they may say that that's not our policies and procedures.

And we're going to have to be accountable to the public for what we do.

And any member of the Monroe County Sheriff's Office has to follow policies and procedures as set forth by our sheriff.

He is the ultimate voice in terms of the Monroe County Sheriff's Department.

>> Is this section in bold?

Because it was either question about it or it became controversial in some way.

>> I don't know that it, uh, maybe his typewriter got stuck.

I that I don't doubt it, deputy.

No, I think it's I think it's along the lines, uh, to, to make sure that it's emphasized and that everybody knows that it's clear right there.

Um, let's say that, uh, somebody decided to go rogue and do, you know, go into business for themselves, which, you know, I don't believe that any of our members would.

It's clearly written there.

And, uh, Chief Fowler could actually say, uh, that's written there boldly.

So you can't say, you know, I was glazing over it and, you know, I missed that part.

No, it's bold there for a reason to make sure that we're following the standards.

That is are set forth for the department and that we're doing what the department is asking us to do.

And that's staying consistent with what we tell the public that we're going to do.

>> All right.

Last thing on this memo, the date, February 10th, says to me that what happened in Minneapolis, um, at least caused enough focus to say, are we certain of our policies?

Do we need to reaffirm them?

Do we need to put anything in bold?

Did do you think what happened in Minneapolis?

Was it, um, did it shake up the department in any way?

Did it make you sort of either reassess or think hard about policy?

>> I don't believe that, uh, to that capacity.

Um, I believe we were already following, uh, the policies and procedures that were re-emphasizing.

Um, I think the, the re-emphasis on these things are more so that the public understands where we're coming from.

Um, the sheriff being the sheriff.

And like I said, an elected official, uh, there are people who call upon them.

And in my role, I have been a lot more active since February and getting the word out, working with the different agencies, um, speaking in different places.

Um, if called upon to do that and to lay out the message of the sheriff because there's fear and there's anxiety, especially amongst immigrant classes, whether it be immigrants, refugees, resettled communities, asylees people who have genuine fear.

I'm a, I'm of Puerto Rican descent.

So you already know we're American citizens by birthright.

But when my own people are telling me, hey, man, you know, I'm being profiled, what's going on with this?

There is true fear out there.

You know, we were blessed to, to, to be able to speak at Corpus Christi and Saint Michael's and to address some of the Latino population that was there.

I did that whole speech in Spanish, and I struggled because I'm a second generation Puerto Rican.

I went to high school, man.

I had I had to Google translate some of those words.

But, uh, Father Daniel Ruiz was in no relation.

Father Daniel Ruiz was, uh, very gracious and kind, but, um, he, he also gate kept a little bit in terms of, um, vetting us to make sure that, you know, our message was going to be consistent and received by those people who were there because there is a lot of fear.

And what you don't want is, again, somebody who may come from an immigrant class to not feel that they should call law enforcement because they don't want their process, if questionable, whether they may be documented or undocumented or within the process of that, they may fear that this could complicate the issue.

I don't want to draw attention to myself.

You know, what?

If ISIS watching me, this, that or the other, we want to let people know you are safe in your community.

When you call 911, you're going to get quality response and you are going to get people who care about your situation, whatever the the service that you may need.

>> You're not going to ask them for papers and you're not going to know.

>> That's not part of what we do.

That's frankly, um, I hope they don't get mad at me downtown.

None of our business.

It's none of our business.

What?

Your documentation process is.

You're still a resident of this community.

There's still laws in this community.

And every resident, regardless of your documentation, has the right to feel safe in your environment.

It's terrible that anybody feels unsafe in their environment.

And, you know, as as law enforcement officials, we're going to do our job and make sure that if you're victimized, that if you need service from from your local police department, that you're going to get that and you're going to feel satisfied and that you don't have fear, there's already fear.

I mean, listen, man, uh, there's been times where I've been stopped by police not for speeding because I don't speed.

Sir.

I just want to point.

>> That out.

>> Of course not.

Of course not.

Never.

There's a governor in my car.

But even, even.

Even if I've been stopped before.

Uh, first thing I'm doing is putting my hands at ten and two.

And, you know, of course, you know, you could flash your identification and do whatever, but I know that that guy on the street is already under, uh, a situation of anxiety as they approach, I'm doing what's asked of me, make sure my hands are attended to.

I identify myself, I tell them who I am, I show them my IDs.

Usually it's something that's, um, out of courtesy or whatever.

You know, we take care of each other.

Like I said, I don't speed.

I'm going on record right now.

But the point being that even as law enforcement officials, we understand that, you know, there's still protocols in place and that, you know, if if I don't want to create an anxious situation and I am law enforcement myself, I'm sure that the average citizen, somebody who is not from this country, has an even greater, uh, apprehension.

And, you know, mine again, is not because I fear, you know, the person who's coming up to my car.

Mine is just out of respect for them so that they understand, you know, I understand what my protocol is here.

You see my hands.

I'm keeping myself safe.

I'm keeping you safe.

And you're understanding that, you know, as you ask me for whatever our interaction is, I'm going to be in compliance, and I'm going to do what you asked me to do to make sure that everybody goes home safely and that there's no anxiety or fear or situation that blows up, that doesn't need to blow up.

>> All right.

Last thing here.

Yeah.

First of all, I bet you your Spanish is better than you think.

Come on.

>> Deck.

When Ching ching.

>> Um, just because I think it's important to keep reaffirming in these conversations that Ice is not police and police are not Ice.

They are different departments.

And obviously there's different levels of training.

Sure.

I am curious to know when you saw the shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti, if you thought that those were justified shootings.

>> Um, I can't even comment on that.

And for the reasons for the reasons that I'm not trying to take a way out of this, um, there's three sides to every story.

When you're in law enforcement, you kind of understand that same thing in the school, three sides to every story, what they say, what the other person says, and then what the truth is.

I don't know what that truth is per se.

We can all see the shootings that happen, and then we can hear what people's accounts are.

But you know what led up to that?

All those other circumstances, you can't really comment unless you know what's going on.

And I think it would be unfair for me to say, you know, Ice did this or Miss Good did this or Mr.. Pretti Pretti did this when I don't know all the facts.

>> So if I told you that what I saw, at least on tape, horrified me, would you understand?

>> I would understand that, yes.

That that what you saw on tape would have horrified you.

What I don't know is whether that tape has been edited, if there's any spin on it, I don't know what the entire truth of that tape, what led up to.

>> I think we've got enough tape of both those those shootings, you know, from a lot of different angles.

I that show the same thing.

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

But in your view, you feel like you don't have enough information.

>> I don't feel like I can I can comment because I don't have enough information in terms of, you know, what led up to that and what the situation was in itself.

What I what I can say is that when ever the public is out, um, whether they're demonstrating, whether they're, whether they're protesting, that's your constitutional right, you can do so interfering with what Ice is doing is not part of what you're supposed to be doing.

And I don't know, and I'm not saying that that's what they did, but if unsafe situations are created, then certain things can escalate.

And we don't know exactly what that was.

Um, if Ice is going to come into this area, um, and do some sort of roundup or some sort of sweep and things get out of hand, I know that, um, local law enforcement is going to come for crowd control purposes and to keep our residents safe.

>> And as you said, you would tell people you've got the right to protest.

>> Sure.

>> If you interfere, you could create an unsafe situation.

>> Exactly.

I mean, if you got your phone out and you're recording, you know, record, send that to your state legislator, send that to your to, to your assembly person, send that to your congressperson.

You have the right to do that.

But what you don't have a right to do is to interfere with the law enforcement, uh, whether it's, you know, local law enforcement or what Ice is doing in the administration, um, Ice is going to be accountable to the, uh, the Congress and the Senate on a federal level as they're a federal agency.

So, you know, if you want to submit whatever it is that your grievance may be at the time, that's the appropriate measure.

But physically getting involved creates unsafe situations for everybody, whether it be Ice or whether it be the public.

And really, at the end of the day, you know, we're local, we're local police, we're concerned with local crime, we're concerned with our citizens and making sure our people go home safe at night.

Our residents go home safe at night, and that this community is, is, is, uh, taken care of in a peaceful way.

>> So Deputy Ray Ruiz will be part of the event at Mercy Spirituality Center.

And Brigid Ryan is the executive director of the Mercy Spirituality Center, the event that they have this coming Sunday from 2 to 4 at Saint Anne's Church Parish Hall is, um, is on the subject of what a compassionate response to immigration would look like in this time and what's happening in our communities.

So deputy will be there, uh, Patrick B from the city will be there.

I think talking, probably answering questions.

What do you hope the community gets out of the event on Sunday?

>> We just want to educate people.

We want them to, um, to hear from different sides of the issue and to be able to walk away knowing that.

They are free to be who they are in our community.

And we want community members to know that they are free to interact, to be a part of, to as Deputy Ruiz was saying, to, uh, exercise their First Amendment rights, should they so see, so fit.

But to know that they are being protected in doing so, and not to live in fear.. >> And Esme, you heard the deputy talking about the policy in the department.

Anything stand out to you?

Um, you know, what goes through your mind when you think about.

>> The role of local.

>> Law enforcement in this time, when there are questions about how much, you know, what is their actual role, when do they get involved?

When they, when do they decide not to get involved?

Do they again, to the deputy's point, choose and to make it clear not to detain someone for any extended amount of time just because ice may be showing up.

What goes through your mind as an attorney when you hear all of this?

>> I mean, um, I think the local police enforcement is set up to, you know, provide the security in the local level in the town.

So it doesn't matter.

This person has citizenship, that person has refugee status.

So it definitely, I mean, I definitely, you know, support that the police, uh, do not interfere with the Ice agents.

Um, activities.

And it also definitely, uh, reinforced the trust in the community because we have a lot of clients who doesn't want to, uh, you know, report the even domestic violence at home because they're afraid that if it affects their legal status, if it affects the, their, even, even they, even if they hate, uh, their husband, they don't want to, uh, they don't want him to be.

>> A victim of violence at home.

Yes.

Might not call police.

Not might not call for help.

>> Definitely.

>> Because they're worried about what happens downstream with immigration.

>> Definitely one, if they're both for their own cases for their kids, children's cases for the, uh, even predators case, they don't want to get affected.

They don't want to, uh, you know, report, uh, robberies, uh, employment, uh, you know, abuses, even if they are exposed to, uh, labor, uh, abuse at the workplace, uh, they are being treated badly treated by the employer.

They don't want to report because they don't, they, they may not even if they are sure about their status because of the ongoing uncertainty, uh, the risk of the risk is high.

They are not sure if something happens, if, uh, this situation affects my legal status or my, you know, employment status.

So these are actually our main concern.

Uh, I mean, we want our clients to be able to go to the police when they feel they need them.

Uh, so I definitely, uh, support this, uh, sanctuary city policy.

And as far as we see, it goes very well.

I mean, it functions very well.

>> Okay.

And just to clarify, as best I can, sanctuary city policy is something that the city of Rochester has adopted, not Monroe County.

Is that correct?

Deputy.

>> I, I do not know that for a fact.

>> Yeah, because.

Because what deputy is talking about in this memo is not a description of a sanctuary city policy.

It's a description of a department that says we want people to be able to call us when they're in trouble and not feel that they're scared that we're going to ask them for immigration papers, that if someone's been victimized or the victim of a crime, they have to be able to call us safely.

>> This is what they aim.

>> Very fair.

That's that's part of our outreach right now.

Um, in reaching out to agencies and to religious organizations and to anybody else who's willing to work, we want to put this message out to the people who actually need to hear it, those people who are in those immigrant classes, whether it be immigrants, refugees, resettled, asylees they need to hear that to understand that local law enforcement is not just an arm of the federal government, which in many cases is, uh, the way law enforcement was viewed or performed wherever they originated from.

>> Okay.

So when we take after we take our only break here, I've got a couple of phone calls, I've got some emails and questions for our guests.

And if you want to let me ask Bridget before we go to break here, if you want to attend on Sunday, can people attend on Sunday?

>> Absolutely.

>> 2:00.

2:00 Sunday afternoon at Saint Anne's Church.

Correct.

And that's at 1600 Mount Hope Avenue.

>> That is correct.

>> Okay, so plenty of space.

>> There is space.

We would love for them to register in advance so that we have enough seating, and they can do that on our website, Mercy Spirituality Center.org.

>> Mercy Spirituality Center.org.

The executive director is Bridget Ryan.

We have Deputy Ray Ruiz here who is from the Monroe County Sheriff's Office, and we have Esma Nacakgedigi who is with us here from the Rochester Refugee Resettlement Services.

Let's take that.

Break your feedback next.

Coming up in our second hour, a conversation about a pretty heated debate in education about something called hit h I t high impact tutoring.

It's not standard tutoring, not the kind of one on one that you would might hire for a child.

It's a different kind of tutoring.

And the research shows it works pretty well, but it's not widely available, and a group wants to make sure that it can be for students who can't otherwise afford the help.

We'll talk about it next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bobjohnsonautogroup.com and Renaissance Academy Charter School of the Arts, a public elementary school in Rochester with an arts integrated curriculum designed to help children unlock neural pathways, overcome trauma, and thrive.

Community support helps sustain programs and resources.

More at r e a c dot.. >> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson and on the phone.

This is Jessica in Victor.

Hi, Jessica.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

How are you?

Good.

So I hear it's a very sensitive subject for me.

I'm a citizen born abroad to an American mother who brought me to the US when I was eight years old.

My mom died when I was 17, and my dad wanted to move here to be with me.

I couldn't bring him.

I called immigration services.

They told me to go back to my own country.

I was about to go to college.

Luckily, I had people here to support me and I was able to stay and I wasn't able to file for my dad to come here until I was about 21 years old, still in college, no job.

I had to have my stepdad sponsor him to come here.

Even though my dad was going to continue working abroad and bringing money into the country.

Um, there's a lot going on about whether or not people should be allowed to stay or go.

Um, my dad came legally and it took years to get him here.

And a lot of people don't have years that they can wait to get here.

It took a lot of money to get him here.

A lot of people don't have that.

They come desperate.

So instead of focusing so much on whether or not people can stay, they need to fix the immigration system so people can come legally in a reasonable amount of time.

My sister then came over and she got approved for a permanent residency card, and she had to wait almost five years to get her card in order to be able to work.

And she had to fly to Brazil to do her interview.

I was finding an interview set to fly to Brazil to be able to, um, do her interview.

That lasted two minutes for her to fly back again, more money.

So they need to fix that system and be putting all this energy that they're using into fixing that system.

And maybe this wouldn't be as big of a problem.

And I just kind of wanted to share that because I don't hear anybody talking about how broken the legal immigration system is.

>> Okay.

Um, thank you for the phone call, Esma.

Do you want to respond to some of what you heard there?

>> Yeah, definitely.

You know, the they are talking about the, um, illegal immigration so much.

And actually the rhetoric, the narrative is so important at these, uh, conversations, uh, we are, they are mentioning to illegal immigration.

But the reason, uh, led to illegal immigration is just like, uh, the varying, uh, set, uh, the broken system related to legal immigration people.

If people, uh, of course, we are advocating them to follow the legal ways, but in some situations, the family reunification is so important.

And if they follow the legal ways, legal pathways, they will not be able to renew, reunify in a lifetime.

So they choose to come through the border just to be, uh, you know, with their family members, with their parents or kids.

>> What.

>> Would speed up the process, what could be done policy wise?

>> So it's a very complicated and deep, uh, you know, uh, question.

I mean, it would take, you know, hours to speak about this, but I think, um, you know, the, at, at this point, the Trump administration is firing or firing judges firing immigration officers, closing immigration courts and the office, immigration office offices.

So this only this is going to only decrease the amount that the legal immigrants who can come in as well.

I mean, definitely hiring more employees, more judges, opening more offices accordingly with the number, uh, that number of people who wants to follow the legal pathway would be a great idea, a great starter.

>> All right.

Um, just thank you for the phone call.

Um, good luck to you.

Let me get some a couple of emails in, but I'll come back to the phones in just a moment here.

Dallas writes in to ask.

He says if a criminal is caught by local law enforcement and is illegal, do they notify Ice or not?

We're talking about local law enforcement.

Deputy Ruiz so Dallas says, here's the situation.

You apprehend someone for criminal activity.

Turns out they are not documented in Dallas words, they are illegal.

Are you calling Ice or not?

When you find out that they are undocumented.

>> We are not going to be calling Ice, uh, immediately for anything.

Um, in terms of that, if someone is arrested, uh, doing something illegal and they're undocumented, um, they're going to go into, uh, if they're arrested, they're going to go to the Monroe County jail, they're going to go through their due process.

And, um, you know, that's going to be decided from there.

Um, the fact that someone gets arrested doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be held or detained, um, any further than, you know, if it's a misdemeanor, depending on the, you know, if it's a felony, there, there are a lot of ifs in there.

And, you know, we're not in the business of ifs.

We can't really do that like that, that that's unfair to, to give an answer and say, you know, well, we're going to do this and this every, every case is a little bit different in terms of, you know, is this, is this going to be something that when they go in and see the judge, the judge is going to say, okay, here, here's your papers.

You show up in court next month and this, this and that.

We're letting you out on your own recognizance.

We're not calling Ice for anything that that would be involved in that matter.

And they're still due process in this country.

You're still assumed innocent until proven guilty.

>> Okay.

Uh, Bob wants to know if if there are local protests against Ice in your jurisdiction.

Mhm.

And I shoot someone in the streets.

Does the sheriff's department get involved in an investigation?

>> Shoot someone in the street?

>> Similar to what we saw in Minneapolis.

But it's in your jurisdiction now.

Is the sheriff's department involved in an investigation?

>> I that I don't know, I don't I'm not, uh, necessarily in a position to, to answer that.

Um, what that policy would be.

I do understand that, um, maybe Miss James at the state attorney, uh, state attorney general levels more than likely going to be the one looking at that.

Uh, but in terms of, uh, if any time that any law enforcement fires a gun, investigations, serious investigations, the problem is that people watch TV and, you know, with watching TV, there's so many cop programs and, you know, somebody firing off their gun in scene one and then scene two, you know, they're right back out there.

That's not how it works in real law enforcement.

Anytime a gun is fired, there's extensive, extensive scrutiny, extensive investigation, extensive oversight.

>> Well, with respect, though, in Minneapolis, when those guns were fired and two people died within hours, the highest people in the Trump administration pronounced those Ice agents innocent and patriots.

So I, I understand that there is supposed to be an investigation into any discharge of a firearm, fatal or not.

You can understand why people are wondering who's going to investigate in the future if it takes 90 minutes for Kristi Noem to say that that was totally justified.

I don't need to see any more tape.

I don't need an investigation.

>> I would hope that 90 minutes would be, uh, not enough to make that kind of determination, right?

>> Yeah.

>> I again, every, every, uh, every situation is going to, um, have scrutiny behind it.

And, um, it's unfair from, from my perspective to say this is what should happen.

That's what should happen.

Because every situation has its nuance.

Um, with, uh, what happened in, um, in, uh, you said Minnesota, Minneapolis.

Minneapolis, that the, that the federal government said those people are.

>> Justified.

>> Justified it there, the federal government, I would have not necessarily said that myself.

Uh, you know, uh, that's one of those things that, um, they'll be answerable to the public for that.

I know what we would do here in.

>> Longer investigation, thorough.

>> Thorough investigation where we take law enforcement very seriously here.

>> Okay.

And, uh, Gary wants to know what is the policy in the jail bureau on holding and turning immigrants over to Ice.

>> When you are done with the Monroe County Sheriff's offices, uh, jail, jail system, we are still not holding, um, anybody who doesn't have a criminal referral.

So if, um, let's say I said we have a referral for, um, you know what?

I'm Latino, so I'm going to use the name Juan Mendoza and I hope there's no Juan Mendoza's listening out there because these are my people.

I mean, let's say Juan Mendoza has a situation and he's at the Monroe County Jail and his, his, his, uh, his situation is done and he is heading out the door.

If Ice calls and that that warrant is not signed by a judge or magistrate, we're not holding them.

Now, let's say Juan Mendoza got himself in trouble in Idaho or in Colorado or in Texas.

And, you know, some judge signed papers on him, and he moves to New York, and those papers aren't served because he hasn't been stopped.

He has had no law enforcement or no, no, uh, no encounter with law enforcement.

And, you know, now he is at the Monroe County Jail.

And I says, we have a, a warrant signed by a judge or magistrate.

Now that's that's a that's a different animal, you know what I'm saying?

Now?

Now there is a reason to hold that person.

There is a warrant that's signed by a judge or a magistrate.

But the mere fact that that person committed, a misdemeanor or whatever, and their their time is up in terms of, uh, them leaving the Monroe County Jail, we're not holding them if there's no warrant again, signed by a judge or magistrate.

>> All right, I'll grab one more phone call in a second.

Here.

Um, let me ask Bridget Ryan, executive director of the Mercy Spirituality Center, so you can see some of the tenor of the phone calls and emails are just questions on procedure, because there's a lot of uncertainty.

And you heard Deputy Riley say in certain communities, there's still a lot of fear.

Um, what's the kind of conversation that you hope can actually produce something positive?

Because too often I think we end up people end up shouting at each other.

People end up sort of tuning each other out or only getting together with people they already agree with, which I don't think is a good purpose of conversation or discussion.

What can be productive in your mind?

>> Right?

So obviously, in order to be educated, to learn from one another and to respect each other's views, you need dialog.

And that's what we want to have.

We want to have respectful dialog.

And that is the purpose of coming together on Sunday afternoon.

And I welcome anyone with an open mind to hear what is being presented.

And if you leave with more information than you came in with, I encourage you to share that, to share that with others so that incrementally we can grow a more peaceful community.

>> Well, Ezra Klein wrote a piece in the New York Times this past weekend, and it had a phenomenal, um, point about conversation, about the reason we have dialog.

And too often you get people say, well, I'm not going to go on this show.

I'm not going to go on this podcast.

I'm not going to go with someone who disagrees with me.

I only want to come on.

If the host agrees, here's what Ezra Klein says.

Conversation is not a reward to be bestowed on those with whom we agree.

Conversation is a necessary habit and a democracy.

The point is not to find agreement so much as to deepen understanding.

To talk with others is to believe in the possibility of change.

Theirs and your own.

Whether you like everything that someone has said should be severed from the question of whether that person is worth talking to, could not have said it better myself, just phenomenally well said.

We need to spend a little more time with people who disagree and actually sit down and marinate in ideas for a while to get to better understanding.

And that's what we're trying to do here.

And I know that's a big part of what you hope the process will be like.

>> We'd like.

>> To see.

Yeah, absolutely.

So Shirley got to keep it tight about a minute.

Go ahead.

Shirley.

Did I get Shirley?

Is Shirley on?

I see it as on, but I'm not hearing.

Oh, Shirley.

That could be a tech problem on my end here.

HMM.

Well, Shirley, on a different occasion.

I'm sorry about that.

Whatever tech issue we had there, um, let me do this here.

Deputy Ruiz, you've been generous with your time to be here.

You're generous with your time on Sunday to be there.

I know the sheriff wants to make sure that people understand policy.

Do you think that the fear that you described in certain communities is that is that abating in any way?

Do you think this is moving in a more productive direction?

>> Uh, I certainly hope so.

The sheriff is committed, um, in this outreach, like I said, in February, um, he reached out to me as one of his community liaisons.

He said he wanted me to take a more increased focus on this for a while.

And, you know, obviously he's the boss and, you know, uh, this is something I'm, I'm already passionate about being, um, second generation Latino in the United States.

Um, and, you know, uh, the fear that's out there is real, the anxiety that's out there is real.

And, um, you have people of all colors, creeds that are passionate on both sides.

And basically our job as law enforcement is to make sure that the residents and again, the victims.

And what's unfortunate is that, you know, um, people who are in the immigrant classes, uh, might feel like they can't call or as Asma was saying about, you know, um, they're fearful for their situation or that, uh, the process where they're at and the process could get complicated.

And we just want people in our communities to feel safe and to know that the sheriff is with them on that.

>> Deputy.

Thanks for making time for the program today.

>> Thank you so much.

>> We appreciate it.

That's Deputy Ray Ruiz community liaison for the Monroe County Sheriff's Office, participating in the upcoming forum on Sunday with the Mercy Spirituality Center starting at 2:00.

Talking about immigration issues.

It's happening at Saint Anne's Church on Mount Hope Avenue.

You can register online Mercy Spirituality Center.org.

The executive director is Brigid Ryan.

Come back anytime.

>> Thank you very much for having us.

>> Thank you.

And Esma Nacakgedigi, thank you very much for being here.

Attorney and immigration services manager at Rochester Refugee Resettlement Services.

>> I'll be there on Sunday as well.

>> Great having you here.

Come back sometime too.

Thank you very much.

Sure.

More Connections coming up in just a moment.

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