- This Memphian is an author,   for many years a professor   of history at Rhodes College.

And as of this past   August, now the president   of the National   Civil Rights Museum.

I'm Karanja Ajanaku.

Thanks for joining me for A Conversation with Dr. Russell Wigginton.

[jazzy music] Greetings Dr. Wigginton, a pleasure to talk to you again.

- Great to talk to you, Karanja.

Last time we talked, I asked you to look forward three months at what you'd be doing.

And you said you'd be having conversations with different folks.

And so how has that unfolded?

- That has been a tremendous experience so far.

I have had a chance to connect with people in Memphis who I've already known and, and some who I didn't know, and spend some time with some folks nationally, who I think could be great partners and great resources for the museum.

And certainly the real pleasure of my job is being able to get to know the amazing employees and staff here at the National Civil Rights Museum.

- Yeah, you said you wanted them to know you and vice versa, and then to take that information in, and to use that as you were talking to the members of corporate world and philanthropy.

So how did that work?

Did you get what you were looking for, and then how has your conversations going with those?

- Yeah, I got that and then some.

I'm very intentional about getting to know people here at the museum, some who I knew better than others, some who I'd never met.

And I had a one-on-one conversation with every employee at the museum, and it was an opportunity for us to engage in dialogue, both about the work at the museum, but also for them to get to know me personally and vice versa.

It helped me understand what motivates people who work here and to hear them talk about their hopes and dreams for the museum.

And all of that goes into shaping and inspiring me as I have begun to have conversations with philanthropic leaders and community leaders and folks who can be on the support team, if you will, for the National Civil Rights Museum moving forward.

- What have you encountered when you had these conversations with that philanthropic community, the corporate community, what are you hearing from them?

- A lot of excitement and enthusiasm, and that has continued to motivate me.

They sense a momentum.

I'm really impressed with the sense of commitment and value that the museum offers now, and can offer.

And so a lot of my conversations have really focused on how do we take a amazing product right now, something that is valued in society.

How do we uplift that and expand it to a national level, such that we are centered in important conversations around human and civil rights, and social justice?

And because they have expressed such enthusiasm, that has fueled me to think more broadly, to be even more visionary in, along with my staff, about what the possibilities are, and a reminder of how valued and needed we are in our local community and beyond.

- Now you didn't discover the Civil Rights Museum as president, you had like 25 years beforehand.

So at what point did you start thinking to myself, "Wow, I'd like to be the president of the National Civil Rights Museum."

- Well you know, I had great relationships with Beverly Robertson, and continue to have that with Beverly and Terry Freeman, and admired their work for years and thought anything I could do to assist as they were building this amazing product, I enjoyed that from sort of arms length.

But as the search for the next leader unfolded and I began to think about where I am in my career, the things I've done and hopefully the value that I can add and what my skill set is, it began to come together such that I let it be known that I would enjoy consideration and appreciate consideration.

In situations when you're leading an organization like this, it's really about the match and timing.

Organizations need different things at different times.

And so part of my thought process was, do my skills and interests match what the museum needs at this time?

And frankly, does the museum provide the things that I need personally and professionally to be fulfilled?

And I came to the conclusion that that was indeed the case, and I'm grateful that the board felt the same way about me.

- A match made in heaven?

- It's in process, I hope so.

But I do think it's, it is a great pairing.

It helps a lot to already be grounded in this community.

I have not had to do the kind of things that someone new to Memphis might have to do in order to get acquainted.

You know, we're a proud community.

This is a community where we take authenticity and genuineness very seriously.

And if you don't demonstrate or display that, it can be hard to be effective.

And I've had 25 years in Memphis in order to appreciate and understand that.

And I like how we are in that regard, and that fits my personality.

So I didn't have to introduce myself to Memphis in the same way.

I'm certainly meeting some new people, who maybe I hadn't come across before, but I know the rhythm of this city and it fits very, very nicely with my style.

- Now you mentioned Ms. Freeman earlier and Ms. Robertson.

I know Ms. Freeman put a lot of emphasis on the museum being a place where people could discuss issues of the day.

And so I'm curious as to how that will play into your presidency.

- It will be central.

That was a wonderful dimension that she enhanced.

I mean, it was in place with Beverly was here, but Terry really emphasized that, and really left me a tremendous platform on which to build.

I think we can have national conversations about issues that affect all of us, here at the museum.

We're ready for that now.

And it took the work that Terry did to ground so much of that in this community.

So when you're thinking about some of the most pressing social justice and human and civil rights issues in this country, we're ready to be a fundamental place.

I would argue too, that we are a necessary place to include when one is thinking about these important issues.

- So you had mentioned earlier about your local connections and not having to introduce yourself, but I've also heard you talk about your interest in getting local people more engaged in the museum.

So how might you go about doing that?

- That's exactly right.

So even when I'm having conversations with people I may already know, or organizations I may already know, it is an opportunity to reimagine or re-envision what those partnerships can be.

So when you think about the Shelby County School System, when you think about the colleges and universities, when you think about the important nonprofits in this community that provide such such needed and necessary opportunities.

When you think about the corporate and business leaders of this community.

It's a chance to appreciate what our relationship is now, and then think about what the next iteration of that is.

So I view it as a deepening of some of our central relationships.

I also wanna be a place that, for folks who may not have engaged with us as much in the past, there's an open door now in which to entertain and to see if there are some mutual interests and mutually beneficial partnerships that could unfold.

- Now, you didn't just drop out of the sky to become president of the National Civil Rights Museum.

You spent 25 years at Rhodes College, a long time as a professor, a top-level administrator.

What did you learn there?

How did that experience maybe even affect what you're doing here?

- That's a great question.

I learned first and foremost, you have to be relationship-centered.

If you don't genuinely invest in people, then you run the risk of having a artificial or arms-length relationship.

And when you're doing the kind of work that we're doing at the National Civil Rights Museum, you need to have relationships because there are, we deal with tough issues.

We deal with uncomfortable issues where trust and confidence and direct conversations may be necessary.

And you can only do that when you have developed relationships.

So I learned early on that valuing people and building relationships are crucial.

I also learned to, being on a college campus gives you a lot of room to imagine possibilities.

And I've learned to maybe pose opportunities that may cause people pause initially, but to really think through if they can happen, if they should happen, and to challenge and to push.

Some of that came from working around young people so much who, when we think about the movement, it was led by young people.

- Absolutely.

- And that combination of passion, commitment, and a twist of naivete is really powerful.

I think the movement was built on that.

I think today's youth still believe in that, and their version of civil rights movement is underway now.

So I and the museum having an obligation to meet them where they are, engage them, and develop the kind of relationships with them that are gonna catapult the museum forward.

- So history, you're a history professor.

Tell me about your interest in history.

What piqued that?

- My interest in history was piqued at a young age.

I listened to my elders a lot, I observed very closely, and I'm proud of my family heritage and the kind of work that they did, the kind of values they displayed, the kind of sacrifices they made.

- Now didn't you have a grandfather or something that played a particular role for you?

- Yes, a great-grandfather who was a red cap for the Louisville and Nashville Railroad for 50 years.

And I think what really intrigued me was he did that work, but there was so much more to him.

He was an artist and craftsman, very community-minded, very relationship-oriented, and very centered on the education of his children.

And some people may have viewed him as a baggage handler for his career.

But if you got to know him, and you got to know what he stood for, it was much more complex.

His work had dignity.

It put food on the table and provided a solid living for he and his family.

But I think even as a kid, I was always trying to figure out how can he be all these things?

And that put me on a journey, I think, to think about people that way, and particularly think about African-Americans, who may have historically been in jobs that, where there's not the same kind of dignity associated with.

And that just really stuck with me, and throughout my professional career and my education, I always come back to the complexity of people and the values, and dignity in their work, and the values they display at work and outside of work.

- Now, some might not know that you are an author, okay?

So if you had to speak, say at Booker T. Washington High School, and describe yourself as an author, what would you tell them?

- I would tell them that writing is a, it's a personal endeavor.

It can be a lonely enterprise, and if your motivation is to be famous, then it's probably not going to happen by that fact alone.

But it's also a tremendous release, and putting your thoughts on paper and having the opportunity to have others hopefully appreciate some of them, is a privilege.

My book came out 15 years ago.

I actually don't think   about it that much,   but when somebody   mentions it,   I really go straight   back to how it allowed me   to go deep within myself   and put my feelings   and my knowledge and my   understanding on paper.

And at a minimum, it can be therapeutic.

And beyond that, it can help shape one's perspective on life, moving forward.

- It took you a while to do research for it?

- It did, it actually, I had another book that I'd had under contract, that I decided not to not to pursue because I had, I didn't feel like the book that they wanted me to produce was one that was really gonna be reflected of my sort of core beliefs in that particular area.

And so I did something you tend not to do in academe, which is I started from scratch on something else.

But because I did that, I had the drive and passion to put the work in and produce a modest little book, but hopefully, it's still in print.

So hopefully there are a few people who read it and think about the intersection of race and sports through a different lens.

- So Dr. Wigginton, it seems to me that with your background, you could have gone to a lot of different places, moved to a lot of different places.

Why have you stayed in Memphis?

- Memphis gets in your blood, I love this city.

It is such a dynamic place, if you're motivated by the ability to be a part of community.

I've been fortunate to be in a position where I've occasionally had a chance to make a difference in some communities.

I also think that it's a community that on its best day, it's grounded in its people, but it's also a community that, we air our struggles.

We have problems here.

We still have race relations and equity issues here, but they're on the front burner.

And I like the fact that challenges, warts and all, we deal with that as a community.

And it's not always comfortable, it usually doesn't feel good, but we deal with those issues in this community.

I've lived in some other places where those things just tend to always get brushed aside.

But when you're in a city that has the racial breakdown and demographic that ours does, when you're in a city that's considered the capital of the Delta, and so fundamental to the African-American experience in this country, you have to deal with issues head on, and I love that about this city.

And then when you think about the fact that the National Civil Rights Museum is rooted in a place with those dimensions, my desire to stay here has been strong, and I'm not leaving.

- So you know, the National Civil Rights Museum, every time I come, I get a chill when I walk through there.

So I can't imagine what it's like to work here every day.

How do you process those feelings?

- That's a great question.

I tend to arrive early, and oftentimes the first thing I do is I walk around the museum, and it's a great place to reflect.

It's a great place   when you're busy,   to be reminded of   what you're here for,   to be centered in the work.

It's a great responsibility.

I get reminded daily of   the role that we play.

We have to show up every day.

We have to be prepared   to inspire people.

We have to be prepared to deal   with all manner of emotions   that people have   when they come here.

I also like to just kinda walk out in the quad area and introduce myself and meet people, because every day I get reminded.

People come from all over the world, and this is their destination.

Most of the people who I meet do not come from Memphis.

Most of them, they didn't just wander to the museum.

They set out on a journey to get here, and that's an awesome responsibility.

So that means we have to be ready every day.

We have to make this a memorable experience, one that they can not just reflect on fondly, but one that hopefully motivates them to be part of making our society the best that it can be.

So I don't have any challenges with what my task is.

- Well, talking about being ready and being ready for your task.

So you get named as president of the museum, and then the first thing out is the Freedom Awards, and not just the Freedom Awards, the 30th anniversary of the Freedom Awards, and then you've got to walk out on stage and sort of set a context.

Tell me about that experience, and what were you trying to convey in that message?

- Yes, as I was working on my remarks, I thought about Dr. King, and I thought about the fact that when this museum was founded, who would have thought 30 years later that we would be honoring the former First Lady, that we would be talking, still talking about the Poor People's Campaign, what brought Dr. King here in many ways, and that we will be honoring a teenager who witnessed the modern-day Emmett Till killing, in George Floyd.

So I didn't lack any motivation for my remarks.

And I wanted people to know, this is a celebration, but it's also a call to action, and that we have made tremendous progress in this country, but the minute we get complacent, we run the risk of sliding back into yesteryear, and I would say creating more moments that we won't be proud of later.

- Well, you also have to create time for yourself.

- That's right.

- I know you've got a family, you've got a son.

So how do you balance that?

What kind of support are you getting?

- I'm fortunate that my wife, Tamika Hart-Wigginton is, I would just say, a social justice warrior in her own right.

And so it really makes a difference to be able to be with someone who understands the kind of things that have to be on my mind, that I may have dealt with or am dealing with, as it relates to this awesome responsibility.

And so having that support at home, having someone who can both understand and appreciate what it means to be in the public eye, somebody who's a critical thinker who has committed her life to making the world a better place, really makes a difference.

And then I have a college-age son who reminds me, frankly that, what today's youth are like, and how you have to engage them, and how do you motivate them, and how do you make them care about both the history in this country, but also that they are the future of this country.

- Okay, so let's say it's April the 4th and it's 2022.

You've been here for a while.

- I'll be a veteran by then.

- All right, then.

What will that veteran be doing on that day, you think?

- So we do know that the world comes to Memphis on that day.

We'll be ready for that.

I'm thinking of it as a wonderful opportunity to remind the country and hopefully demonstrate to the country that we are indeed ready for the national stage.

We have a voice, we have the kind of expertise and professionalism to lead and drive important conversations, important events, important transformational moments, through and at the National Civil Rights Museum.

- You know, as hard as it is to imagine, there are some young people who have never seen the Mississippi River and have not seen this museum.

So if you could be in front of them and try to make this be a destination point for them, how would you pitch the museum?

- I would tell them that this is their home.

Regardless of their background, they can find themselves in this place.

It's also a place of, where they can dream and they can think about their futures, and they can see themselves and be inspired through others for what they can do, what they can be, and how they live their lives.

- So how many more years do you think you're going to be working right here at the museum?

- I'm not a hundred days in, you're asking me when I'm going to leave.

I'm committed to this place.

I'm 55 years old, I don't plan to have another job.

This is where I'm supposed to be.

I've got work to do here, we have work to do here.

And my goal is to make sure that the museum is elevated to the next plateau, so that my successor, who will bring their own gifts and talents, that they're as fortunate as I am, and that they can walk into the job on the first day and look forward, and not have to spend a lot of time doing, you know, residual or repair work before they're able to look forward.

- Is there a particular part of the museum that touches you most?

- As far as an exhibit or something of that sort?

You know, it changes.

I do think there are a couple spots that I take notice of every time I'm in this room.

And one of them is the,   there's a photo of   Stokely Carmichael   with a Howard University   t-shirt on, or sweatshirt.

And part of the reason I'm   reminded of that is because   he and my father were classmate   and friends at Howard.

And so at a minimum, I think of my father every time I see that picture and think of him as a 21-year-old, trying to decide if he's going to go to Freedom Summer or not.

So that's a special place.

I also think the lunch counter is a special place   because my mom was part of   desegregating lunch counters   in Louisville, Kentucky.

And so those things   connect to my parents, and so I never walk through the museum without seeing those.

And just the breadth of information and complexity of the museum, every day I notice.

There's so much here.

I actually love the fact that you come to this museum, you can't take it all in.

I want you to want to come back, and I also want you to understand the richness of African Americans historically, and present day in this country, and the relationship that African-Americans have had with this country.

And frankly, when you look at the multiple dimensions of authority, and how people were treated, you also find whites in this society who displayed the kind of courage to participate for what they believed was right.

And all of that comes through every time you come to this museum.

- All right, Dr. Wigginton, thank you so much for the conversation.

As always, when we get together, we can keep on talking, and we thank you so much for it, and we thank you, our viewers for being with us for A Conversation with Dr. Russell Wigginton.

[jazzy music] [acoustic guitar chords]