[funk music] - Hello, I'm guest host Linn Sitler.

And I'm here with a man that I think most of you know, either by name or by reputation, Memphian Henry Turley.

Henry!

- Hello, Linn Sitler.

- I'm so glad I'm getting to spend this time with you.

- Well, I appreciate you're coming down to my habitat.

That's very kind of you.

- Great view, too.

- Yes, we feel, Lynne and I,   both feel lucky to be here   and you know why we're   on the top floor of   the Cotton Exchange?

- Why?

- It was the only one that was small enough for us.

It's set back a little bit.

It's the only one we could afford at the time, and so that's how we got on the 12th floor.

- Well, you know, you have a lot of reasons to be here in Memphis.

I had someone ask me, well, why didn't Henry go all over the countryside and, and, and do more harbor towns?

And I know the number one reason.

- That's a good question.

- Yes.

And the number one reason is, is because here is the love of your life.

Here's where you met her.

- Lynne Jordan?

- Yes.

Absolutely, I couldn't go on WKNO without acknowledging her, you know.

Lynne was the music teacher that they put on TV.

Do you remember that?

There wouldn't be   enough music teachers,   so they put one on TV   and she was so darn good.

She got a regular   weekly show   on both Channel 5   and then Channel 10.

On Channel 5,   it was Sneakers,   Sneakers on Your Feet.

And you would put   your sneakers on   as a child and go   have an education or adventure with Lynne Jordan, now Turley.

And on Channel 10, they asked that she find a black man   who would co-star with her.

And she found her good   friend, Michael Allen,   who was playing keyboards in   the Willie Mitchell house band   and said, "Michael, you   want to be a TV star?"

And Michael can do anything.

Well, anyway, they did.

They did one call, "come with us and learn something and then pass it on."

And you should have seen them singing.

So we gotta acknowledge them.

That's the Turley that should be on TV.

- And who knows what would have happened to Downtown Memphis if you'd met the love of your life in, say, Chicago, or God forbid, Nashville?

[laughter] - When you ask about, about Memphis, that is, you know, if I wondered if that was a mistake, but I've always been interested in Memphis.

And one of the things I like about Memphis is that there's so much that needs to be done.

That's the first thing we ask, does the city need this development?

And, and until we get a "yes" to that, we don't do it.

- I can look out the window and see the Shrine Building.

That was the first building that you developed, redeveloped.

- Do you blame me?

- It's beautiful.

- It is an exceptional building   and right on the river,   and people ask me,   "How did you get this   building and that building?"

Well, I had   first choice, right?

Because I was the only one choosing.

- I know you've developed a lot of things.

Redeveloped, I have to get the term right.

Why don't you explain the difference between developed and redeveloped?

- Oh, it's, it's a huge and enormously significant matter now.

When I came along and started this company in '77, the city was just crying out for redevelopment.

- I remember that.

- It was, I looked around pretty good.

And I thought we had the worst downtown that I saw in America.

- Well, someone told you that.

- Oh, they sure did Linn!

How did you remember that?

That's good.

I was working for Percy-Gamborth and Sons before I started Henry Turley Company.

And I got a call from a fellow who said, "I'm so and so "and I represent "a very big manufacturing company, "and we want to put one of our entities "in Memphis and it'll have a significant office component and a significant manufacturing component."

Wow, I mean, I broke the speed limit going to the airport and picked him up.

And I remember very clearly driving northwardly out of the airport and getting in the right lane to go out towards the airport industrial park, which our buddy Bobby Snowden was doing at the time.

And Belz was out there too, just past the airport.

"Oh Henry, if you don't mind, would you turn left and go downtown?"

And I was puzzled, I just didn't get it at all.

I drove in, drove up and down a few streets and he said, "Henry, if you will, take me back to the airport."

[laughter] - That would have killed me.

- I had my heart set on that big money.

And also on the success of getting this company to, to Memphis.

And on the way back, he said, "Henry, I do a lot of this.

"I'm very busy and I have to develop shortcuts.

"And one of the shortcuts in evaluating a new city "is what does the downtown look like?

"Well, you were with me, you saw.

You ought to be ashamed."

And I was, he didn't say it in an ugly way, but he, I left convinced we needed to do a better job.

And it had just fallen to me to take a role in that I was, I was, you know, I had no money to speak of   and no experience   in development,   but I was free.

Lynne and I weren't even   married at the time, so I didn't have any obligations and whatnot and I didn't work for anybody.

So I quit my job and started a company and we were gonna make a better city.

How about that?

I mean, I think about how presumptuous I was.

- And you redeveloped that   which had deteriorated.

- That's right.

What the fella   told me, you know,   I called him   the wise old man.

He evaluated Memphis so quickly and just said, y'all don't have it together.

It's a coordination.

And he knew that development was government working collaboratively with development.

With development is presumptuous.

With builders.

The government is as much a developer as we are.

- Well, now you've mentioned many times that there were people who, individuals, in talking to you over the years, you've mentioned different people who, whose influence on you made such a difference and maybe they worked with you on a project or they gave you some advice.

Would you like to mention them now?

- Well, I'll tell you one I'd talk to right then.

And it was Philip Belz, how about that.

- Jack Belz's father.

- That's right, thank you.

I was at a cocktail party and saw Philip Belz across the room.

And I had sort of made up my mind to try to do something.

And I went over and introduced myself and said, "Mr. Belz, I think we have to improve downtown.

"I wanna play, I wanna play a role in it.

Can we do it?"

And he said, "No, Henry, we have to do it."

And it's turned out   that the month I opened   the Shrine Building,   he opened the much   grander Peabody.

He and his whole   family, you know,   with Jack worked   like the dickens on it.

Gary Belz was   very prominent.

So the whole family was on it.

In the meantime, I'm trying to do the Shrine Building.

I had to barter, though, I had no money.

So, but I had a good friend and client named Elwood Edward, prince of a man with a delightful family.

And his job was investing money for his law clients.

He had a law firm.

And he invested their pension and profit-sharing moneys.

And so he needed investment.

Well, a guy like me that would scuffle around with old buildings was, was helpful to Elwood.

He could invest in them.

And here's another example of how government helped.

About that time, they made historic buildings eligible for income tax credits.

So his clients got what are generally known as "historic tax credits."

So they took it off their tax.

So that helped afford the thing, but government helped afford it.

But that was just the equity.

How in the world was I going to get the debt?

The bank debt.

And real estate is substantially funded by bank debt.

And I had good banking friends and good banking relationships, didn't have any money to speak of.

The government passed a law called CRA.

And it required that, that banks invest their, their holdings, their deposits more equitably, not just in Germantown, but also in Orange Mound.

Of course, that's a long and complicated story, but that sorta changed the banks' attitude toward me.

You know, that's still didn't get us enough historic tax credits, and the required debt.

What else did we need?

Well, Mrs. Awsumb.

Mrs. Gwen Awsumb   ran a new department   called Housing and   Community Development.

Yeah, and she was a splendid woman and had all sorts of bright young people working for her.

And they'd figured out if anybody's going to do something like the Shrine Building, they're going to need something we will call a Downtown Housing Loan Supplement Program.

And they would lend you up to 20% of the cost of the building with no liability.

I'll get to that.

And on top of, you know, the other debt.

Daggummit, that didn't get it.

I mean, this stuff was so hard and the rents so low and the thought of retrieving Downtown Memphis so improbable that we had to get something else.

And it's the, what is now called PILOT, payment in lieu of taxes, the Center City Commission, which John Dudas started.

And it's backed up by Frank Jemison and John Slater.

They were determined to make this happen.

And they created a PILOT for one who is building, who was building things like I was, Shrine Building.

I gotta tell you this quick story.

So, it was so long ago that tax records were kept on index card in pencil.

And I went down to the assessor's office and pulled out the card for the Shrine Building.

And... oh, we didn't call them PILOTs at the time, we called them tax freezes.

Is that familiar?

You remember that, remember that expression?

Well, I looked at the card and there was Shrine Building, 1950, so many dollars, 1954, so many fewer dollars.

It's just going down and down and down.

I said, wait a minute, I'm the sucker here they froze the taxes to stop them from going down.

And people think that.

Oh, they don't give these guys credit for what they did.

And it's the most economical thing you can do.

It's just a citizens board that determines what do we need downtown?

Well, we need a hotel.

How bad do you need it?

Ten years of property tax freeze.

So we need some homes, how long?

Well, we needed 15 and how bad, 15 years.

And I just laughed and I still laugh at how they suckered me, but I, I'm about to finish this story.

One year, I asked my secretary how many property tax freeze issues have we had?

She said, "Oh, about 35."

And I said, how much property tax were they paying with before we did the project, when we bought it?

"Well, if you add them all up, I'll bring it to you tonight."

Less than $200,000 a year, city and county totally.

That's how downgraded downtown was.

- Oh my gosh.

- Yeah, "And how much did, well, Brenda, how much did we pay last year?"

"Well, last year we paid five and a half million.

A year in property tax, up from 170 something thousand?"

Yeah, well now, who thinks that wasn't smart of the city?

Please raise your hand, if you think the city was the dummy.

- Now, we can't leave this conversation without hearing about Harbor Town, what you and Jack Belz did.

And it's, it's just amazing.

And your use of space.

People have said to me,   Henry can look at a space   and he can suddenly see   ways to use the space and,   and create community.

And that's why   you have porches   in Harbor Town and   the garages in the back.

And then you have the   apartment complexes.

- A porch is a   a community place.

A deck in your backyard   is a family place.

So you can see how   decks would be important to the soldiers who were starting their families in the suburbs while the front porch would be this place of community to people who've come back to the city.

- As it used to be in the small towns, always a porch.

- That's right.

And you could argue   that the anomaly is the suburb,   suburb out there, central   business district down here, and the appropriate word for what we're doing is urban, where all the uses are mixed together.

A thing that I think was very important in shaping my career was, was my having been born at 1268 Sledge, which is midway between the Snowden-Annesdale Mansion and Lamar Terrace Public Housing, and at spitting distance from Bellevue.

And so I was, I was brought up in a very wide spectrum of people.

- Well, we've got, we've got something we've got to touch on: Uptown.

- Oh, well...

I never explained why we did Harbor Town, and it was because we had done these 34 things with tax freezes and whatnot.

And I went to my... Oh, daggum, I almost didn't mention my, my great partner, Tony Bologna.

When we set out to do the Shrine Building, I knew nothing, right?

I couldn't develop anything.

Didn't have a clue what I was doing.

Who could be, who could be the architect?

Well, Tony was architect on Beale Street.

They were playing around   with the restoration.

I will show you what   Beale Street looked like.

I went up to Tony's office in   the Lincoln-American Tower.

I said, "You reckon we could do the Shrine Building?"

And he was thrilled.

And I was lucky.

I was just lucky to get a guy who was an architect, an engineer, a politician, and a problem solver.

He just could do it all.

And I often think what...

I was with Jack Belz yesterday.

And he had, I was working on a project and he anticipated the problems on my project.

And he, you know, he's, he's been at home with COVID and not with, but, you know, trying to-- - Like, we have all been, hibernating.

- Trying to be a proper 92-year old hero, but he can know, he can always figure it out and he can do three at once.

So, you know, I just, again and again, I was lucky to, to find friends.

- Well, they all saw something in you or they wouldn't have invested the time in you and mentored you.

- I never saw what it was.

I always, I would always argue that, at best, I'm pretty good at ideas, but I need Tony and Jack.

I mean, I need Tony to implement them and Jack to affirm them and pay for them.

I have partners in Jackson, Tennessee, where we were asked to try to help them rebuild the older part of their town.

Redevelopment, back to your question about redevelopment.

How smart they were and damned if I didn't find myself in partnership with Hal Crocker and with Bobby Arnold, who ran the hospital up there and just, I thought, what if, what if I hadn't found Hal Crocker another builder developer and Bobby Arnold, a great public servant?

Well, I just wouldn't have gotten anything done.

Now I look like a hero.

And it just, you know.

- Say 50 or 100 years from now in Memphis when the name Henry Turley comes up-- - I don't want them to think about that.

I want them to have embarked, it's sort of what we embarked on.

It wasn't Downtown.

It was the inner city redevelopment.

It was development of the full city, not just the perimeter.

And I've gotten fascinated with this saying.

How about that one?

In other words, everybody needs to be part of the deal, and every neighborhood needs to have development, and we've got to figure out how to do it.

And in Memphis, the reason black lives matter so much, is we're mostly black, and a lot of us are poor.

Well, how did you miss this?

So, I'm focused more on that now.

You asked about Uptown and I didn't respond.

I gotta tell you about Uptown.

So, one of my mentors was a well-known civil rights leader, A.W.

Willis, and he always encouraged me   to include everybody.

He didn't know he didn't know, they didn't have the slogan but he wanted me to include everybody in the procedure, you know, in the process and in with the product.

So I'm finishing Harbor Town and people over and over are saying, "Henry, "when my husband and I came out here, "we didn't realize how good this would be, how much it would do."

Harold Ford once told me, "Henry, "the only thing wrong with the Harbor Town is you didn't tell me about it 10 years sooner."

This has meant more to me and my enjoyment of life.

Well, I get that on and on, and I couldn't help but conjoin A.W.

Willis admonition with the clients saying they loved it.

And walking out on the A.W.

Willis Bridge and looking across the Wolf at what's now called Uptown.

But was just an abandoned part of North Memphis,   just neglected, blighted,   abandoned, slum   and think about it, Linn.

I thought of it as   a piece of real estate   but when I got over there   and started meeting people,   I realized it wasn't just   the real estate   that was abandoned.

People had been abandoned.

I got to tell you   one about Jack.

So I, I call him, I'm on this bridge, A.W.

Willis Bridge.

I'm looking over at North Memphis, it's utterly neglected and abandoned.

And I call up Jack, and I said, of all of the bad ideas I've had, this must be the worst, but it's also the most important for Memphis.

Unless we reclaim these abandoned neighborhoods and these abandoned people, Memphis will fail as a city.

And Jack said, "Henry, we have put so much "of our energy, of our money, of our time, influence "and our heart and soul into expanding Peabody.

"The Peabody and making it great "and connected with Beale Street and whatnot.

I just can't undertake anything else."

I said, "Well, Jack, this idea is too important to ignore.

"And it's too big for me alone.

I need you."

He said, "Okay."

How about that?

- That sounds like Jack Belz.

You're a great man, Henry, and you deserve a great partner.

- He was the good one, think about it.

He was totally preoccupied.

- That's, and do you know the, their commitment to Memphis is like your commitment to Memphis?

- Times a hundred.

I still want to somehow record what Philip did-- - Now we're going to have to say good night.

- I'm sorry to be so long-winded.

But you make it easy-- - No, and it's so fascinating.

And everyone wants to hear everything.

We're just going to have to revisit.

- Well, I'd love to do that.

I mean, think about that.

I get to shoot my mouth off.

- Yeah, and I get to look - That's what old guys are good for.

- and enjoy myself being with one of the great men of the day.

- It's certainly been my pleasure Linn Sitler.

I've always admired your work.

I appreciate that opportunity to be with you, and to talk about myself.

[laughter] [funk music] [acoustic guitar chords]