- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by PSE&G.

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The Fund for New Jersey.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

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Johnson & Johnson.

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And by The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

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And by Insider NJ.

[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

You're about to see the first of two parts of a compelling conversation I had up at Montclair State University with Montclair State University President Jonathan Koppell.

It is part of our Think Tank series.

You'll also see it on "One-on-One."

It's part of our series on media leadership and innovation, and we taped it at MSU in a beautiful hall,l place was packed.

I talked with Jonathan Koppell about the importance of academic freedom, keeping students and others safe on a college campus while they're engaged in free speech.

We talked about the value of a college education, and we talked about the role of public universities in the community.

I sat down with Dr.

Jonathan Koppell.

We did it in cooperation with the College of Communication and Media at MSU, my alma mater, Montclair State.

This is part one of two conversations with Jonathan Koppell.

- Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We're here on the beautiful campus of Montclair State University.

We're at Presentation Hall.

You can see behind us this is a "Think Tank" production that is done in cooperation with the College of Communication and Media.

And sitting next to me is the president of Montclair State University.

Put your hands together, our studio audience for Dr.

Jonathan Koppell.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

Thanks, Steve.

Good to see you.

(audience applauding) - So, let's do this.

You can see us on the air, but this I said is a large audience, and I'll be coming here to Montclair State to, I don't like the term lecture, Mr.

President.

I like engaging people.

So, in that spirit, if you don't mind, I'm gonna move around a little bit.

They'll get every camera angle we need, but I have a first question outta the box.

- Yeah.

- Why the heck are we doing this?

And is this media production with a great audience on homecoming.

Is this what Montclair State is all about?

Talk to- - Yeah.

So, this is homecoming, so I apologize for my informal attire.

I don't keep up with you.

- I apologize before the blue tie.

- That's right.

But this is homecoming.

It's a fantastic, a fantastic weekend at the university.

Obviously there's a lot of energy.

There's folks coming back, families, alumni, students.

Huge energy.

It's a time though to celebrate the university and everything that it's about.

And this program is a celebration of the university.

The whole production crew is our students.

I know a lot of your team, our alumni.

- That's right.

- This really shows off a lot of what the university is about, including you, an alum who's done well, but also points back to experience at the university as being an important ingredient in your success.

So, there's a whole lot going on here.

- A lot going on.

- That shows what Montclair is about.

- So, let me follow up on that.

We're obviously taping at a critical time, not just because it's homecoming here at Montclair State, but there's a lot going on on college campuses.

And your background academically is in political science.

- Yeah, that's my- - How would you describe, Dr.

Koppell, where we are today as it relates to open public discourse of issues that matter with diverse audiences, with people feeling safe and secure to do that?

A and B, the role of MSU in that regard?

- Well, there's a lot.

- Yep.

- There's a lot in the way you frame- - Sure.

- The question.

So, the first thing I'd say is we are having fundamental conversations about the nature of American democracy.

What we want this country, what we want this country to be.

Some people see it as a disaster.

Some people see it as finally a correction that's overdue.

But it is undoubtedly the case that we're at a moment where the future of our country is in play.

I think that's an, I think that's an empirical observation that's not partisan or coming- - No, it's not.

- From one side or another.

The challenge I think about that ostensible conversation is it's not really one conversation.

You've got different universes where people talk to each other, mostly where people hear voices that they agree with and don't engage people who they don't agree with.

And when they do, it's mostly shouting, right?

All caps, screaming.

- Social media.

- Name calling.

I think social media is a big part of it, but frankly, it's not just social media.

Many of your colleagues on television, they encourage the shouting, not the conversation.

In that world, right?

And I realize there are exceptions to that and so on and... But in that world, I think universities offer a possible alternative path.

- How so?

- Because they are a place where you should create opportunities for conversation.

- Right.

- Where you should create interactions that allow people to be a little more vulnerable, but also a little bit more open to hearing things that are different.

That's the point of it all.

- Hold on one second.

Are you saying, Dr.

Koppell, we should be more open to people who have a different point of view than our own?

- Yes.

- How dare we.

(audience laughing) Why is that so hard?

- Because we've lost practice at it.

I mean, I do think that's part of the consequence of the world we live in, that we've separated out into bubbles that are mostly populated by people who look, sound, think in ways that are similar to ourselves.

- [Steve] That's right.

- And then, for commercial reasons, all of that's reinforced, right?

So, your feed is populated by things that agree with you and that match what you have looked for in the past.

And all of this is recursive.

And it's right down to where people choose to live, right?

- The algorithm- - We're sorting out.

- Sorry for interrupting.

The algorithm knows who we are and what we say and we believe?

- The algorithm knows that, not just based on what you say, but what you buy, where you live, where you went to school.

Every one of us has a profile and that profile can predict what we are likely to buy, which is the main driver of all this.

- Right.

- And then, all the content is curated based on that profile, which makes for a very effective marketing system.

And on some level, as consumers, it's not without value because the stuff that ends up in front of you is stuff that you like.

But what it doesn't do is provide for stimulation and confrontation with things that are different, other.

And that comes at a loss for a democracy.

- Okay, so staying on that in terms of the role of the college campus.

When Tim and I were here back in the late '70s, getting out in 80-ish, if you will, social media wasn't around.

But there was always, there's always divides.

- Yeah.

- Students who had different points of view.

How do you see the student body today in terms of its ability to not just have a individual point of view, but to listen to students.

Forget about the adults who have already screwed up.

- Right.

- Okay?

What about your students' ability to engage each other, particularly when someone has a different point of view?

- I think it's uneven, if I'm being honest.

I think our students have grown up in a universe that is very much consistent with what I described, where they are looking at their phones and they're seeing a feed that agrees- - Sure.

- With them, with their own opinions, and their own experience.

So, then the question is, how do you create a place where something different can happen?

- [Steve] Right.

- So, a couple different things I think are important about this university.

First of all, it's an incredibly diverse place.

- Describe that.

- In every way that you wanna think about diversity.

So, you can take the ways that most people use that.

Race, ethnicity, whatever.

There really is no majority on this campus.

- What about ideologically?

- We don't have a test that we know what the political opinions are of every person on campus.

But I've talked to a number of students.

- Yeah.

- And we have a variety.

Does it skew to the left?

Probably.

- Even today.

- What?

- Even today?

- Yeah, I think so.

But does that mean that it's universal or that there aren't students who have very strong views across the political spectrum?

It absolutely does not mean that.

I talk to students all the time who represent that diversity of opinion.

We have college Republicans and college Democrats.

We have students who are active.

And so the key is, here's the key.

The key is do you create an environment where people feel comfortable expressing themselves?

So, we talk a lot about creating a sense of belonging on campus, and creating a feeling among every student that this is their place.

That they own it.

- Yes.

- That they have an interest in what goes on here.

In my opinion, the reason to create an environment where people feel comfortable is that when you feel comfortable is when you can be challenged.

If you don't feel like you belong, if you don't feel like this is your place, of course, when somebody threatens you or threatens your views, you're gonna interpret that as they're threatening my right to be here.

- Including.

I was debating bringing this up, but to not bring it up is irresponsible.

Do you believe Dr.

Koppell, that in this day and age with political violence being what it is, that there are a significant number of students, faculty members, and a significant part of the MSU community that is aware of and concerned about their own safety?

'Cause members of Congress, both parties, are canceling forums like this.

And not just because someone gets up to a microphone and has a different point of view.

But in fact they're worried for themselves and their families.

How real is that?

- It's real that people articulate that concern.

That's real.

So, there's no doubt that, and look, we see the news.

We've seen- - Yep.

- We've seen things happen.

And I'm not just talking about the horrible event in Utah.

There have been other events on campuses, which are- - But the Charlie Kirk assassination has triggered for many an even greater awareness and concern for safety and political violence.

- Yeah.

No, there's no doubt.

I mean, obviously it's a prominent event.

- Yep.

- Having said that, we are very, very sure to communicate to the members of our campus community that we take safety very seriously.

- [Steve] You do?

- That when there are any rumors even of threats, we investigate, we address them.

We have an environment where we allow for, even encourage expression.

- Yep.

- Demonstration.

But when we do so, we have a presence of police and student affairs teams that make sure that those things are conducted in a safe manner, so that people are not threatened by them.

- By the way, before we move further.

- Yeah.

- Can we thank with applause the public safety professionals who are here today?

(audience applauding) Thank you.

Thank you.

- And so, but so, that's our obligation.

You can't say, you can't say, "Oh, everybody should just do their own thing," if you're not also creating a safe environment.

And so the question is, how do you hit the balance, right?

Between allowing for free expression, allowing for demonstration, but also ensuring that it's a safe environment.

- That's right.

- Where everybody feels comfortable speaking up.

And so, I think we do a good job of hitting that balance.

It is more challenging now than maybe other moments- - Definitely more.

- In the past.

But it can be done.

And it's also worth pointing out, because I don't wanna only talk about Montclair.

It's also worth pointing out, even as you know, we see red dots of trouble on a map, that the red dots of trouble are vastly overwhelmed by the other dots that don't show up on that map.

And that a lot of campuses are doing a really good job and are very dedicated to promoting discourse in a safe and supportive environment.

And so- - Sure.

- I think that there's this unfortunate sort of tarring of a whole class of institutions based on a few glaring examples.

- Unfairly?

- Yeah, I think it is.

- Inaccurately?

- Absolutely inaccurately.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

So, academic freedom.

No one says they're against it.

No one.

We believe in academic freedom in theory.

From your experience, not just as a college university president, but as an academic who... There's so many faculty members.

By the way, let's hear it for all the great faculty members here at MSU.

(audience applauding) How the heck do we protect academic freedom in an environment where it appears that there are certain folks in positions of power and sometimes with power over purse strings.

Financially, you don't care about funding from the government, do you?

(audience laughing) That's a joke.

Nevermind.

It's- - So- - It's not as big a share of our budget as people think it is, but- - But does it matter?

- It's not something that we can give away.

- Okay, so what's the message to faculty members at MSU as it relates to the protection of academic freedom?

And not just for students, but for faculty members as well?

Talk to our audience.

- It is important.

It's a phrase that gets thrown out and people sometimes who, particularly those who don't engage universities, think it means, well, faculty can do whatever the heck they want.

- Not true?

- It doesn't mean that.

It doesn't mean that.

But it does mean that, it does mean that faculty can't be punished or excluded based on the perspective that they bring to their work.

And it becomes a dangerous thing when we start to torque education according to some test of what you are allowed to say or not to say in the context of a class.

And so, I understand why this is a tricky one for people to understand.

So, you're saying a professor can do anything they want?

No, that's not what anybody's saying.

But it's not that, it's not that the government or anybody else should come in and limit the content of a professor's professional expertise based on some political- - You worry about that?

- Well, you would have to not paying attention to the news when you have state legislatures in other parts of the country, literally passing laws that say, "Thou shalt not X."

That's pretty much the definition.

- Hey, can I ask you something?

Political scientist.

When you were studying political science and got your PhD, I got my PhD from a much lesser university that has read in a further different part of the state.

- [Steve] I'll talk slowly for you, Steve.

(audience laughing and applauding) - That hurt.

That hurt.

Can we edit that out?

(audience laughing) But here's what I'm curious about.

When I was doing my doctoral work in media and public communication, and my dissertation was rejected six times, which you can edit that out as well.

But here's what I'm curious about.

The term from a political science point of view and a practical point of view.

Wokeism wasn't around.

- Yeah.

- What is that?

- Well, it was around.

I mean, we used the term political correctness.

- [Steve] It was used differently.

- How do you think?

- Oh, back in the day?

- Yeah.

- Wokeism in my perspective, subjective.

Somebody's woke.

That's pretty cool.

That's great.

Not now.

For many it means something different.

It means that there's some sort of ideology that you have that is so outside of the mainstream and not connected to what average, whatever that means, Americans think and feel and are concerned about.

You know, that woke professor, that woke Congress member.

Come on.

- So- - It's not helpful, by the way, name calling.

- Yeah.

Well, I, and it's the... So, it's not just woke, right?

So- - By the way, now you know why we didn't go through the interview before.

- Yeah.

- And talk about it.

Go ahead.

- Yeah, because you're just gonna go down the softball route.

- Exactly.

- I don't think it's just woke.

I think we use terms like woke and we use acronyms.

- Yep.

- To just categorize whole people and categorize sets of beliefs to avoid dealing with the substance of it.

And so you say, "Oh, well that's woke."

Or we say, "I'm against DEI."

And I don't like saying against DEI because that's diversity, equity, and inclusion.

- How dare we?

- And those are concepts.

- By the way, this is one of the most diverse audiences I've ever seen and I'm not here on my soapbox.

I'm not exactly sure why we should be apologizing for that.

- But so, it's harder to oppose any one of those individual ideas.

- But?

- But if you wrap it together in an acronym, you're against it.

By the way, the same thing can work.

If you say, "That's MAGA."

- That's MAGA.

- MAGA.

- Too easy and inaccurate and unfair.

- And doesn't deal with in a substantive way whatever might be in there that you like or don't like.

It just becomes MAGA.

And so, I really think we should move away from these things because they're sloppy and lazy.

But more importantly, they lead you away from actually engaging the substance of whatever it is your disagreement's about.

So you say, "Well, it's woke to talk about the history of slavery in the country."

Well, why?

Isn't that part of our history?

Why shouldn't we talk about it?

What's wrong with talking about it?

- Yes.

- How do you understand the history of the country if you leave out a big part of the history?

So, don't tell me don't be woke.

Tell me exactly what it is you don't want us to talk about.

- That's harder.

Yeah.

- Calling someone a name or categorizing something puts people in boxes.

And you don't need me to tell you this because you live it every day.

You and your team live it every day.

Those who are brave enough at the College of Communication Media are gonna go into a world where the truth is name calling, categorizing, putting people in boxes, shuts down the dialogue.

- Right.

- Who are you with?

Whose side are you on?

Which is it's not only anti-intellectual, it's not practical.

So, I'm gonna go back to the intellectual conversation.

We have, I have three older sons and our daughter who is in high school here in the town of Montclair.

We pushed.

We have pushed with our kids, college education.

By the way, by a show of applause, how many people, this is incredibly controversial, are in favor of college education?

(audience applauding) - Very random sampled audience.

- Yeah, people came.

People came to homecoming at MSU- - Yes.

- On a Saturday.

- Yes.

(audience laughing) But here's the thing.

There are a significant number of folks, Jonathan, who question the value of a college, and it depends upon the university or college.

I get that.

- Yeah.

- But overall, what do you say to those?

And they talk to you all the time.

- Yeah.

- Come on.

Really?

College education today?

How important?

Talk to our audience.

- So, two things.

First, generally.

They've been misled by people who have their own agenda into believing that overall a college education doesn't pay dividends.

All the data says that overall it does, right?

That if you earn a college degree, you're gonna have higher income, higher health, higher happiness, better outcomes overall.

On average.

- Better marriage if you... No nevermind.

(audience laughing) But better quality of life.

- By the way, by the way, even that.

Lower divorce rates.

Lower like- - No joke?

- No joke.

- Okay.

- So, the short answer is yes.

And all the data shows that that's more likely.

Having said that, there is a second point, which is not for everybody, right?

So, first of all, the success rates at colleges are shockingly low across all institutions.

And you can use Montclair as an example of everything that's right.

That is to say, we just were ranked by US News as top 10 in the country for social mobility.

That's a very impressive outcome.

(audience applauding) So, now what is that?

So, but why is that?

- Yeah.

Why is that?

- That's because our students come here with a very diverse set of backgrounds.

What do I mean by that?

Half of our students are Pell eligible.

That means they come from, if you come out of a family of four with an income less than $65,000 a year.

- [Steve] Financial aid.

- So, they don't have a lot of resources.

- [Steve] Got it.

- Half of the students here are the first in their family to attain a college degree.

And yet they earn degrees at 15 percentage points higher rate than their profile would suggest they would.

So, that's an impressive achievement for this university.

But what does that mean?

So, take a step back.

What it means is, at a lot of schools, a lot of students start and never earn a degree.

- High percentage?

- A high percentage.

It depends on the school, right?

Some schools, the majority of students who start don't finish.

- Majority?

- Yes.

That's and by the way, that's unconscionable.

And so, if you look at the United States as a whole, somewhere in the, or on the order of 40% of students who have some college degree, some college and credit.

- Right.

- Don't have a degree.

So for them, you say, "Is college worth it?"

Well, no, right?

They started, they didn't earn a degree.

They probably have some debt.

And now, they don't even have a degree to show, you know, the payoff of what they've already done.

It's hard to tell that person that they're better off.

And so, when the conversation is, is college worth it?

- Right.

- We have to take some accountability for the people who are negative because we told them they could come into university and they didn't get what they were coming to get.

And sometimes it's their own fault, but sometimes we made it more difficult than it should've been.

- It's the student's fault.

So, let me ask you.

- No, it's not.

Sometimes it's our fault.

- It can be the, it's a combination?

- It can be.

It can be.

- I'll ask a practical question.

We have our son who is in fact here.

We have a son who's a junior here at Montclair State University.

If he struggles and doesn't do well and doesn't finish, he has a role to play, but the university, your academic advisors, the faculty, the culture here needs to support it.

But it's not just the university.

- It's both.

It's both things.

It can be both.

So, yes.

I'm not letting... This is sounding a little personal for you.

- It is.

- Yes.

- Because if this kid doesn't graduate, I'm telling you.

(audience laughing) - [Jonathan] We're not talking about your student- - No, okay.

Sorry, sorry.

- We're talking about... So, yes, some students, they get distracted.

- We extrapolate, - They get distracted.

They go, they spend time.

- Yes.

- In ways- - Got it.

- That dads don't approve of.

- Got a few seconds left.

- We've talked about this.

But in many cases, it's that we made scheduling too difficult.

We made rules that were too arcane.

People focus on cost.

That's a complicated thing, but it's a real thing- - Sure it is.

- That costs have gotten high.

So, we have to also look in the mirror and say, what role do we have?

But I do wanna since you asked the question of the value of a college degree.

- Can I actually do this?

- Yes.

- Since this is "Think Tank" with Steve Adubato as opposed to someone else.

- Yes.

- In cooperation with Montclair State University and the, in fact, the College of Communication Media, there are two parts to this.

It's Part One, Part Two.

Two half hour conversations.

I'm gonna ask the president to hold that thought with our great studio audience here.

We'll pick up that point and we'll do what we can to make sure all of our kids graduate from college.

Hey, put your hands together for MSU and your president of Montclair State.

(audience applauding) To everyone watching, this is "Think Tank" on the beautiful campus at MSU at Presentation Hall.

Pick up Part Two, either online, streaming or on public broadcasting.

See you next time.

Put your hands together.

(audience applauding) - [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

The Fund for New Jersey.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Johnson & Johnson.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Valley Bank.

And by The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by Insider NJ.

- (Narrator) This holiday season, the Community Food Bank of New Jersey the state's largest anti-hunger, anti-poverty organization, together with the hundreds of food pantries, soup kitchens and nutrition programs it serves is calling on all of us to unite.

Unite to end hunger.

Together we can make the holidays brighter for our New Jersey neighbors in need and help build a food secure future for our state.

New Jersey, now is the time.

Unite to end hunger.