[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - The best response you can have to a payoff in a thriller is someone goes, "Oh, right, I forgot, of course..." [multiple voices chattering] [Narrator] On Story offers a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

All of our content is recorded live at Austin Film Festival and at our year-round events.

To view previous episodes, visit OnStory.tv.

[Narrator] On Story is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

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[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is On Story.

A look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators, and filmmakers.

This week's On Story, "Girlfriends" and "Being Mary Jane" creator, Mara Brock Akil.

- Most of my shows have been Black-centered, especially Black women-centered.

But Black culture has survived because of humor.

We have some of the darkest narrative, the darkest story here in America, and sometimes I think the only way we have survived this, is with humor.

[paper crumpling] [typing] [typewriter ding] [Narrator] This week on On Story, Mara Brock Akil, creator of "Girlfriends," "The Game," and "Being Mary Jane" discusses her decades-long career creating television.

[typewriter ding] - Where did you grow up?

- I was born in Compton.

[laughs loudly] - Oh, okay!

- I was raised though and what people I guess, in the Ladera Heights, Windsor Hills, Black Beverly Hills area... - Black Beverly.

- ...before my mother remarried.

And I also grew up in Kansas City, Missouri which, um, I often tell people I'm of mixed breed and they'll be like, they think maybe for racially, I really mean I am from the Midwest, so that's like the hard worker in me and I'm from Los Angeles, which is the dreamer in me.

And that combination has served me well in this business and just in the pursuit of my dreams but I really am thankful for both, for both, um, exposures and where I got to grow up.

- Oftentimes we don't really, actually until like you understand it, that those experiences have so much to do with our writing.

- Oh, so much.

- And I know you went to Northwestern.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- Love it.

- So after Northwestern, did you just come to LA and just say, I'm gonna get a job as a writer's assistant or- - No.

- Did you know you wanted to write in TV.

- I pursued journalism.

- Hmm.

- I went to Medill School of Journalism, which is an amazing journalism school.

Also at the times, um, there was the Gary Hart scandal at the time.

The newspapers were changing and corporations were buying newspapers.

And were we really the fourth pillar of society?

You know what I'm saying?

Were we really the watchdog anymore?

We just pumping out press releases to...

I mean, it was just a weird time, the changing of the guard of journalism.

And the other thing that I found quickly in my internship, um, which speaks again to how great the program was because I got to really try on journalism.

And one of the things I ran into right away was how hard it was to tell the Black story.

- Hmm.

- And I thought, oh, you know what?

Maybe I'll have a better shot in Hollywood by telling the truth through fiction.

[Camille] Wow.

- And so a lot of my writing, um, part of the recipe in my writing, you'll see journalism in it, meaning, even the way that I process-- that I am driven by the deadline in a lot of ways.

- But the beginning, you had to get that first job.

- My very first opportunity was, um, the stage PA for the "Sinbad Show."

- Ooh, wow.

- And the politics I had to do to get that job, um, I think that comes back from like, home training and Northwestern preparing me, I leaned on those skills, those, sort of, the navigation of life skills to work that.

And so I worked that through relationships.

So I'm on the "Sinbad Show."

The "Sinbad Show" actually is having a lot of challenges.

And what it did was it brought several showrunners through.

- Ah.

- Instead of thinking, and again, a lot of people were like, "Oh, this show's probably not gonna make it.

Where's my next job?"

By staying present, I got to meet Ralph Farquhar and Michael, Ralph Farquhar and Michael Weithorn who came through to help the show.

Who also had this show that they were trying to get on at Fox called "South Central."

And I was able to identify basically the dramedy.

That's what they were doing on "South Central."

Long story short, here's Ralph Farquhar right there, and that's when I did again, strategize about how can I get him to take me seriously about this thing called the writer's trainee program that I researched through the WGA?

Ralph now has "Moesha".

And I had helped on the pilot that did not go for CBS but then months later, UPN wants it.

But now I'm a producer's assistant on, um, "Dave's World."

He called, I met and I got hired to be the staff writer on "Moesha".

- What is something like a specific storyline or episode on "Moesha"... - Mm.

- ...or "The Jamie Foxx" that was special to you or that you contributed on?

- Yeah.

- I'd love to hear that.

- Um, my first episode was "The Job" and it was interesting.

I took her right out of a page of my, of my life.

I worked in the mall in Kansas city as the, um, you know the people that pass out samples?

Well, this is back in the day that people would pass out samples and get you do surveys, mall surveys.

I was that person.

And so we gave that job to Moesha and Kim.

And so it was, that was, it was her first job.

[Moesha] I really don't understand all the fuss about the high rate of unemployment because Kim and I pretty much landed our first job the minute we walked into the interview.

It's in marketing research and they are willing to pay us for what we be happy to do for free: walk up and down the mall talking to our friends and the honeys.

Especially the honeys.

Not bad, huh?

We get our first paycheck tomorrow.

Imagine that!

My own money to buy whatever I want whenever I want.

No, of course it might take a while to get my car but I'm on my way.

We've been on the job two weeks, but now Kim hates it.

She didn't realize what they meant by "some modeling".

[audience laughing] - Chicken, get yo chicken here.

[audience laughing] - At least they got her coordinated.

[audience laughing] - When you're a new staff writer, just that perfect energy of-- what is your suggestion about when do you pitch?

When do you go back?

- Oh well, it's funny just to paint the picture.

There was about 14 on that table and writer's rooms are very different from obviously just the crafting of it.

You're having to put your, it's like a it's a bit of a performance.

It's a bit of, of being on stage.

And there are a lot of some, and at the time there were standup comedians who were in there two days a week punching- - Oh my gosh!

- So you talk about people taking up the space in the room.

And I started to realize, so I observed for a minute and what I started to realize is sometimes people, they weren't being very, um, helpful to the script but they were keeping the room voyant with ideas.

And so I would really hope, so I realized, I realized early on I'm not the funniest in the room.

So I leaned on my strengths.

So sometimes that would stitch together someone's joke with my pitch to offer it.

But so that was one way just to, I'll just I'm going to be the story person but we were still writing at a time of two jokes.

Like you still needed to hit those jokes.

And so I needed to get that joke out of me.

So the funny thing is, this is my funny story is I literally had connect the dots on my face.

I had, I was breaking out in pimples so much because I was so stressed... - Yeah.

...that I didn't know how to get my voice in there.

So I didn't use my voice.

I use a skill that used to get me out of punishment with my mom.

I used to mimic.

So I started mimicking in Kim's voice to pitch my joke.

So somebody pitched a chicken joke and some and almost like dismissing my pitch, but not, it, it wasn't it's just like, it's just an, it's just like, you know a little bit playing the dozens, like "what's Kim gonna do?

Sell some chicken?"

And I took that and I was like, yeah, she could be.

And I would go, yeah she could be like "chicken, get yo chicken here."

And so, and then Ralph cracked up laughing and I laughed and I was like, oh, that's what I'll do.

I'll pitch in Kim's voice.

And it would help me just to get used to the rhythm.

So story, and then I won't pitch my joke.

I'll pitch it in Kim's voice.

And actually I'm already writing because I can hear what Kim would say not really what Mara would say.

[typewriter ding] - So selling "Girlfriends" came after writing on "The Jamie Foxx Show".

- Yeah, so at the time "Sex in the City" was on and I was, I was interested in where they were pushing the narrative and the conversation for women and what women were really thinking and saying and doing, and not what people, men, were imagining what men, what women were saying and doing.

I wanted Black women to be a part of that conversation because clearly "Sex and the City" did not want us to be a part of that conversation.

- Because there was no Black woman on "Sex in the City"?

- No, there were, but, I mean, even as extras, we weren't a part of the world.

And so... - Yeah.

- ...that, it, it, it pissed me off, but instead but I was raised not to complain.

I was raised to, that's an opportunity.

I rescued some of my favorite characters out of these failed pitches and mixed it up in a conversation about what would, what would be a Black version of sort of "Sex in the City" and it would be "Girlfriends" where we center the support group of Black women's dreams, that include men, but not, "Girlfriends" is not built for "where's my man?"

Although Joan had that at the top of her list, but she had a lot of other things on her list.

So "Girlfriends" was centering this group of women that are needed to support Black women as they go and try to manage all areas of their life.

- In that pilot, like what beats or what moments did you know that you had to nail or hit in order to make this a show that was going to be a success?

That people were going to want to follow these characters?

- The thing I knew I wanted to do more than anything was to drop you into their lives, fully formed people.

One of the criticisms, I had a lot of half hours in general but sometimes, when it was... Black, I felt like the origin story was so, it just felt like it, it was just too simple.

- Yeah.

Mhmm.

- It just felt it was just too simple.

And I, if you're going to be a nearly third, I think Joan's character was 29 in the pilot, your life is already complicated and nuanced and complex as a Black woman.

And so all that we carried needed to come in that pilot for all of those characters.

And I didn't want it to just be a simple thing that we would build.

I want it to be fully, you know like if you think about the pilot, Joan and Toni are already, it's like this great relationship but it's toxic off the bat, you know?

But, but there's something even deeper because Joan is already really accepting of Toni.

Exactly how she is.

Irritated a bit, you know what I'm saying, but to even get to that place to be okay to say "you can bring my ex-boyfriend," - Mhmm.

- You know what I'm saying?

To my birthday party.

- Mhmm.

- What is that friendship then?

- Happy birthday girl.

Okay.

All right.

You know, toe sucking, Charles, that guy you dumped?

Well, he's my date for the party tonight.

- Huh?

Charles, everything about us feels so right.

Except, one thing: I do want to get married.

And if that isn't something that you want, then maybe we should just end this right now.

- Okay.

- You're bringing Charles?

- If you're okay with it.

- Sure, I'm fine.

FYI: I know you want to marry money and Charles just isn't the marrying type.

I mean, he's a great guy and he sucks a mean toe, but he is not about to marry you.

- See, I told Lynn you'd be okay with it.

- So then it made me go deeper and as I was building the characters, I had to root them in and examine friendship.

Is friendship worth holding onto just because you guys were in kindergarten together?

[Camille] Mhmm.

- "How much do you owe friendship?"

was one of the things that I kept asking throughout, throughout the whole series, like "how much can a friendship endure?"

You know what I'm saying?

And when is it okay to let it go?

When is it okay to hold onto it?

As well as celebrating the love of friendship.

And so, so the other thing is then I wanted to examine, you know how people with kids today they'll say, "no new friends", right, when you get to, but like at what point do you let someone in?

So even that dynamic of the work friendship or the work dynamic when you're the boss to the assistant and the, the parody or the non-parody in that relationship and can it withstand friendship?

So I was just testing that, you know?

Can you, can you with Lynn, I wanted to know, can you, is it okay to be loved when you are not the, the Black woman who got it all together?

Because I was also challenging this notion of, you know, Black women having to be strong and figured it out and ambitious and whatever.

And is Lynn worth loving when she's, she doesn't have it figured out, you know?

And she doesn't have it all together.

And she is so different than the rest.

She is so alternative.

- Lynn, adults get jobs.

We all have jobs.

You need to get a job.

[audience laughing] - Okay, no, I am not a conformist.

- Okay, so what about a part-time job?

- I'm overqualified for part-time jobs.

- So?

You can explain Hegel's Dialectic to your McDonald's colleagues while you change the grease in the fryer.

[audience laughing] You know, you'll, you'll enlighten the world and feed them.

- Okay, look, I don't get it you guys.

I thought we already went through this.

I thought moving in with Toni here was the first step in me getting on my own feet.

- But it's been eight weeks.

It's time for another step.

Even the crippled don't move that slow.

[audience laughing] - Sorry, I thought you guys were my friends and I thought you cared about me.

I'm just trying to finish my education and I thought you had my back.

- We do have your back.

I'm just tired of looking at it lying on my sofa.

- Toni!

[typewriter ding] - The show was ahead of its time.

There was subject matter in "Girlfriends" that, um, you were probing like infidelity.

- Mhmm.

- Even though it was a comedy, it was a dramedy.

- Mhmm.

- A boyfriend got deployed to the Middle East, - Mhmm.

- Um, interracial dating with Toni and the Jewish, - With Tod?

- Yeah, the Jewish doctor.

Was he a dentist or doctor?

- He's a doctor.

- Doctor.

The Jewish doctor.

So just, just an, even also the male/female, um, kind of struggle sometimes in terms of, you know the power dynamics in a relationship.

So talk to me a little bit about, did you set out did you say, like, "I want to really write about some, like really like the most cutting edge issues, like, of the time?"

or do you just think that just came organically out of exploring the characters?

- It came organically out of observing life.

- Yeah.

- Being a journalist.

I wanted to tell the truth through fiction.

That was happening back at the turn of the century.

I wanted to document what Black women were thinking and doing and feeling and seeing and what our details were from style to feelings.

And, and it's interesting, that was happening in 2000 and it feels fresh today.

- And it's, so it speaks a little bit to either one: We are now ready to deal with it, or, we now have more power and a place to confront it and to start to dismantling it.

Whether that power has come through therapy and we literally are healing which, something else, I loved challenging in the series about, at that time in 90- between 1999 and 2000, in that, in that early part of our century, we still were debating as Black people, whether or not therapy was for us or was that for white people?

You know what I'm saying?

- Yes.

- It's like, no.

- Yes, that's a big thing, mental health in the Black community.

- But there was probably a lot of Black people quietly going to therapy because they didn't want to be challenged by family members or by the church or whatever, but we were doing it.

We just weren't as vocal about it.

Now, the generation now is like, "this is exactly what we need."

So whether we are dealing, dismantling the trauma inside to get comfortable enough to give voice to it or we are even the systems that we're having to fight like even dealing with Joan.

And the reason why Joan and William and this was intentional, is I wanted to, I, you know, as much law as we did on that show it was like throwing around the word "litigation" because really what it was examination of Black people and the few numbers of us in white corporate America.

And how much, um, and their friendship came out of survival and necessity.

It was just, "Hey, I see you, you see me" and having someone to have your back.

- You verbally assaulted me in front of Swedelson and Darton.

I knew you wanted that second chair just as bad as I did but my God woman, I never took you as a sore loser.

- I am not a sore loser!

You cut me off and you stole my idea.

- I didn't steal your idea; I didn't hear you.

Would you give me the benefit of the doubt?

- Why should I?

- Because I'm your friend, because you're my friend.

I hope you pull me aside instead of embarrassing the hell out of me.

Ya know, I thought we were more than just friends, William.

We're the only two Black attorneys in this firm.

And it's hard enough as is!

You should have had my back.

- Don't play that race card with me.

- Why?

Huh?

Because you can't be loyal to your people?

- So even when William sort of chose his gender over his race, we thought that was fun sometimes to do, but but the bigger point is whether we were dismantling the systems so that we can now talk about that.

I mean, I remember when the style, um, of the show just the, the, from the hair to the clothing.

I remember at the time, young attorneys, young women attorneys, Black women attorneys, were talking about "I'm wearing my hair out like Joan".

I'm gonna push.

I'm gonna push my shoe a little bit with my pants suit.

Ya know what, I want to wear a dress and a blazer.

They were copying her style.

And I didn't know at the time how revolutionary that was because I didn't live in a law firm.

I just knew how I wanted Joan to live in a law firm.

I thought, you know what I'm sayin'?

I know I wanted, you know, I had my idea and I'll tell you, I was pushing against this.

When I graduated Northwestern, a lot of my friends were employed by Arthur Anderson and I could not believe the uniform they had to wear to work.

And I was like-- so I was kind of commenting on that.

I was, I was creating a world in which I wanted something slightly different.

And I, I wanted, I also wanted women to be not afraid of their femininity throughout their style, that we do not have to conform to male to, um, to the, to the male culture in the way that we are even dressing ourselves.

So those things were political in a lot of ways as an artist.

And in some cases, I was being a journalist at the time.

- I want to go to a specific moment.

Um, so Joan, toward the final seasons of, um, "Girlfriends," going back to "Girlfriends," has her own restaurant.

And she starts to become a little selfish.

- Yes!

Yes.

- A little self centered and starts doing things.

So what about that one?

Where did that idea, her changing careers, I know, and William becoming a part of that investor, um, and then strain sometimes on their relationships, but she starts to do some self-centered things.

Like, was that to blow it up?

- Well, Joan is a lawyer.

We talked earlier about how Black families tend to, for success, for safety, and success is safety.

And we also thought that having these respectable jobs would keep us safe and alive.

I mean, that's really at the core of a lot of this.

So being an attorney, then my daughter or son will be treated like the human that they are.

Right?

So a lot of these dreams that are packed in us, doctors and lawyers, that's an American dream, but from a Black perspective, it's about survival and safety as well.

Right?

And success.

So I started to wonder, "Is that Joan's dream?"

- Oh, okay.

- Is that Joan's dream?

And so, and then the, and then she had such a responsibility back to her family.

It, what if she didn't want to be responsible to the family?

Is there, is freedom, is the freedom that we're fighting for, the sovereignty that we want for our children, shouldn't it be for them for the things that they want not what we put on them?

So let her explore, let her buy a Porsche, let her do all the things that she saw everybody else do, and have fun because she was "the good girl" and see what it, it did.

The dress didn't fit very well for her, but I think she deserved to try it on.

And so that's what she did.

- Hey, Joan.

I've been so worried about ya.

Are you feeling better?

- Yes, so much better.

God, wooh!

All I needed was a good night's rest.

- Well, I am relieved.

Because you know you were looking a little peaked at The Chloe Boutique opening!

Next time you lie and ditch your friend, don't parade yourself in front of the paparazzi.

- Oh my God!

I look so hot!

[audience laughing] Oh William, what can I say?

- There's nothing you can say.

- You mean, I can't say that I happen to have two courtside tickets to the Clippers game on Saturday?

I guess you'd be insulted if I offered them to you.

- You don't know what I'd be.

[audience laughing] [typewriter ding] - I have another important question, but just like sort of a quickie, which is about comedy and drama.

Just, how do you sort of toe that line?

Cause a lot of your shows have that, they're dramedies.

- Most of my shows have been Black-centered, especially Black women-centered.

But Black culture has survived because of humor.

[Camille] Mhmm.

Yes!

- We have some of the darkest narrative, the darkest story here in America.

And sometimes I think the only way we, in a lot of ways, have survived this, is with humor.

And so humor is not about, oh, I'm trying to be funny.

It is about survival, about facing the truth with a way to swallow it and stay, stay alive.

So, it's a language that we, it's a part of our DNA if you're writing about Black people in a lot of ways that there's going to be some way to deal with humor.

I mean, to survive it with humor.

So that's, that's in me.

And I, um, I think also, from a practical perspective, comedy was the only thing that really afforded to Black writers in Hollywood in any, for many, for many, many, many years.

- Right.

- So really I was trying to put the serious nature into the the half hour sitcom that I turned into a hybrid just so that I can put it kinda come back to where even like what Ralph and Michael Weithorn were doing on "South Central."

It's just, trying to show the breath of Black humanity.

And I think my shows have been a bridge, or help, hopefully help in the narrative of Black Hollywood stories that we can just get to just, you know, some straight drama too.

You know?

[typing] [typewriter ding] - You've been watching a conversation with Mara Brock Akil on On Story.

On Story is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story project.

That also includes the On Story radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive, accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

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