>> Juliana DeWillems: Thank you so much.

And welcome everybody.

I am so excited to talk about our favorite subject, dogs.

That glee that we heard in the audience earlier was really nice So to start out, I've got a few questions for each of you about your books and your writing process.

Each of you have a unique relationship to dogs in your professional and likely personal life.

You all wrote very different books, though the topics were all dogs.

What drew each of you to write a book about dogs?

Mark, let's start with you.

>> Mark Rowlands: Thank you.

Well, I suppose it's different.

I've written a couple of, well, a few books on dogs, and the first one was I suspect it's to do with memory and not wanting to forget.

So the first book was called "The Philosopher and the Wolf."

By a decade or so, I was fortunate enough to spend with the wolf hybrid named Brennan.

And I found myself back in the area of France where he died.

And I just sat down one day and started writing.

And I think most of the stuff I'm happiest with are the books.

I didn't realize I was writing until I was sort of a considerable way into them.

But with this new book, I mean, "The Word of Dog," I think I spent most of my life with dogs, and I think it's impossible to spend that much time and not... Eventually things dawn on you.

The realizations sink in and it takes a shamefully long time with me.

Sometimes you think I would have caught on quicker.

But he solved a sort of my latest dog.

The dog who we live with now, Shadow.

He solved a sort of philosophical problem for me, and it's quite, quite a foundational philosophical problem.

And he had no idea what he was doing.

He doesn't know what a philosophical problem is, but he did.

And so it all stemmed from a sort of daily walk we take on the canal that runs behind our house where he... >> Juliana DeWillems: The Iguanas.

>> Mark Rowlands: The Iguanas, yeah.

>> Mark Rowlands: And he just sort of runs up and down the back, exiling the iguanas across the canal to the other side, where they will remain for the rest of the day, you know.

And, but nighttime is is apparently a time when iguanas forget things.

And so the very next morning, they'll be back again, lined up at roughly ten yard intervals for him to expel once more, you know.

And it struck me after many years of doing this, it struck me.

Well, this is a bit like the myth of Sisyphus, really, where Sisyphus was a mortal who offended the gods in various ways, actually.

And his punishment was to roll a large rock up a hill for all eternity.

He gets to the top, it goes back to the bottom, and he has to start all over again.

So you replace the rock with iguanas and essentially you've got Shadows life.

And Sisyphus is portrayed as kind of an allegory of an utterly meaningless life, just repetitive activity that aims only at its own continuation.

But so it's the epitome of meaningless life.

But Shadow, this seemed to be the best part of his life, arguably the most meaningful part of his life.

And so this light bulbs eventually went off and I thought, wait a minute, what's going on here?

And so that's how I came to write this book.

>> Juliana DeWillems: You had to share it with the rest of us.

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah, I had to work out for myself, you know.

The first thing in the book is to work out what you're thinking yourself.

I think and that's what I had to do.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Love that.

Alexandra, what about you?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Thanks.

I wrote "Inside of a Dog" in 2007, it came out in 2009, and this was a book which I was driven to write because, again, because of a dog.

Because of my dog Pumpernickel.

Actually I was a dog cognition researcher, which was not really a thing that people were calling themselves at the time.

But I was really studying the cognition of dogs, looking at their behavior and trying to make inferences about what they knew.

I'd gone to graduate school in cognitive science, and dogs had become my subject.

And through all these hours of observations of dogs, I realized that my relationship with my own dog was really changing based on what I was learning and based on my colleague's work about what dogs can understand of what we point when we point the understanding of our emotions, their acute sense of smell.

And so I would look at my own dog and be changed in the science I was learning.

And I thought, well, this is not something I should keep to myself.

This is a book.

And she really prompted.

I mean, she really prompted that book to be written.

So now that was 16 years ago that it was published, and a lot of dog science has happened since then.

And I have met and have lived with many other dogs, and each of them have their lessons for me.

So this book was a kind of culmination of new dog science and more dogs talking to me.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I love it.

That's great that you were able to share what has changed since.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: So much has changed, because the field really was in its inception in the early 2000s and now there are dozens of dog labs, right?

And hundreds of researchers doing studying the dog as a legitimate cognitive subject.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I think a lot of authors wish, once you put something in writing, it's there forever.

So a lot of authors hope to have the chance maybe to update what they've learned.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: ...updated too that weren't about the science, right?

One of them is sort of the language of ownership, which I really don't use anymore.

And I talk about myself as my dog's person and they're not my dog.

Kind of they're a family member, right?

So even just insinuated through the book language like that, I got to update that as well.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I love it.

And Elias, what about you writing this book about dogs?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

I mean, I'd always thought of myself as a photographer.

I photographed something like 50,000 dogs over the last decade and was writing short stories for Instagram and social media.

And I enjoyed writing those stories and, through people talking to me about their dogs and getting all these quotes.

and so at some point I realized, like, I've become an expert at something and it's not just getting dogs to sit and look at me, I have a knack for that.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Getting the perfect shot.

Very good at that.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Well, most of the pictures I take are not... Every picture of a dog is a great picture.

But getting them to look right at me is a challenge.

But yeah, I just had listened to so many people over the years and all these themes about how dogs change people's lives, and it's something everyone in this room probably feels, especially if you have a dog.

But it's hard to articulate.

And there's these themes around unconditional love and them not judging you, companionship, family.

And so I felt compelled to distill all these experiences and write a book.

And it was a challenge and I wasn't sure if I would be a good writer.

But it's been successful, and I think people are enjoying the book.

So there'll be more.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yeah, I think you really captured the heart of what we feel about dogs in that book.

So thank you for writing that and having something for all of us to relate to.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah, I mean, it's everyone's book as much as it is mine.

>> Juliana DeWillems: What is something that each of you learned or changed your perspective on during your writing process?

Alexandra, we'll start with you.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: When I wrote that first book, I thought I was really just taking account of the science that was out there and telling people how they could use the results of that science to change their relationship with their dogs.

And while reading the book, I realized, I mean, I learned a huge amount while writing it, but I also realized I was almost more interested in understanding the dog's point of view and how science could be used to make a sense of what I call the dog's Umwelt after this Austrian biologist who coined this term, their worldview, right?

And a lot of that has to do with smell.

And so I became actually much, much more consumed with understanding what it's like to be a smelling creature through writing that book.

And that has stayed with me.

I look at any dog and think not just of what they're seeing and how they're thinking about the world through through what they hear, but also what they're smelling, right?

And I let my dogs smell anything, right?

And I encourage you to do so.

And so I think that really changed how I live with my dogs and also changed my research, which is mostly about olfaction.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yeah.

And I'm glad you brought up smelling because we are going to get more into that in a minute.

Couldn't talk to you without talking about that, that's for sure.

Elias, we'll come back to you.

What is something you changed your perspective on through the writing process?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: I think I had been bracing for the last ten years on the internet as, like, a photographer and moving so quickly.

And so just taking the time to appreciate the depth that people care about their dogs.

I'm just like writing this book, crying and like, reflecting on all these experiences and just sort of taking stock of the 50,000 dogs I've met and the thousands of people, people who trusted me and to tell their story and everyone... It's like the one story that people want to tell.

No one wants to talk about themselves or their family.

But when you want to ask them about their dog, it's like, “what do you want to know?” You know, like the most embarrassing story is the first story, and it's just such like a breath of fresh air to hear some an authentic story, to share something honestly, to know that it will be received well.

We live in a very divisive time right now.

Like we need this sort of antidote to the rest of the internet that makes us feel envious and shocked, to sort of restore our faith in humanity.

And so just being able to create something that has a positive effect and makes people feel good, felt very fulfilling, yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Couldn't agree more.

[applause] And Mark, what about you?

>> Mark Rowlands: Numerous things, really.

I mean, whenever I said whenever there's a realization dawning and I'm sitting down to write, I know some sort of change is coming.

So I mean, to take one example, I became a father for the first time at the ripe old age of 44.

And I was a little worried about how the new house sharing arrangements were going to go down because the house was largely owned by an old German Shepherd Malamute mix called Nina and a wolf dog, wolf-hybrid called Tess, who they were both old dogs, but Nina was a bit crotchety, and Tess had some fairly highly developed predatory instincts.

So I was a little worried about how this was going to work.

But it quickly dawned on me that my worries were just without foundation because they were clearly better parents than I was.

And so if my son so much as squeaked in the middle of the night, then I'd have these two cold noses pressed up against my face instantaneously, you know?

Wake up, you negligent father.

Your son needs you.

And so in these, sort of sleepless nights, really, of early fatherhood, this idea.

Well, could it be that animals are capable of behaving morally?

And it was a question that other people had started discussing around about that time, notably the late Frans de Waal, Marc Bekoff and other people.

And so answering this question involves sort of, thinking about what morality is and what we're doing when we act morally.

And I think the dogs in my life were a very useful corrective to certain sort of philosophical assumptions made by both philosophers and scientists about the nature of moral behavior, what it is and what it requires.

So that would be sort of one, I think, fairly, fairly prominent example, but there are many others too.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I'm sure.

Thank you.

I want to remind everyone that we are going to have an opportunity for you all to ask questions in the last 15 minutes.

I will prompt you when you can get up and find the microphones.

Now I'm going to start asking each author questions about their individual book.

Mark, we're going to come back to you first.

In your book, you often bring up your German Shepherd Shadow, who you just mentioned.

You paint us a picture of what you call his reactive aggression, his reactive behavior that has influenced both your life and his.

You write that some would regard Shadow as a damaged dog, a defective example of the species, yet you don't see him that way.

And in fact, it's clear that you embrace Shadow for who he is and you don't try to change him.

I think a lot of dog owners who have dogs with behavior challenges can relate to this.

How do you think studying philosophy has influenced the way you share your life with Shadow and how you accept his behavior.

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's an interesting question.

I don't think I'm not sure philosophy teaches you anything in the end other than how to think about these things.

>> Juliana DeWillems: You have a lot of perspectives based on your study.

>> Mark Rowlands: But no, I once had a sort of 150 pound wolf-dog mix, wolf-hybrid, called Brennan, who also had behavior issues.

And one of his issues was eating his way through walls if I left him on his own for any length of time.

So I'd come back and the kitchen and washroom are now being condensed into one sort of room, and it slowly dawned on me that, well, okay, this is a problem, right.

But it's not Brennan's problem at all, it's my problem, and it's only my problem because I'd come become attached to having two separate rooms rather than more kind of open plan sort of concept.

So, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So, what so I suppose one thing, the notion of a problem doesn't make sense in isolation.

It's always a problem for someone or something, you know?

And I think approaching dogs behavioural issues because every dog has the right to... every dog deserves a home where he's safe and if he has issues, can't inflict those issues on other people.

And, I mean, I was brought up with dogs of this sort.

My father was a police officer, and he was a sucker for dogs.

So when they often get dumped at the police station and he would bring them home, and usually we find them at home, but other times we'd keep them.

And one ,one dog was Blue was a Great Dane.

My father was a sucker for Great Danes as well.

And he had certain certain unresolved issues.

So the last thing you ever wanted to do with Blue would be to be the last person in the room with him, because if you tried to leave, he would bite.

And the rest of my family all bore the scars of Blues issue.

I didn't largely, I think, because I'd left home by this time.

But as I say, every dog deserves somewhere safe where he can, I think, be what he is and without inflicting too much trouble on other people.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I love it.

Couldn't agree more.

Elias, so much of your book focuses on the special and unique relationships between dogs and people that you've met.

This past few days, you've experienced the importance of that relationship.

Do you want to share about what's transpired over the past week?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yes, sure.

It's been a long week.

Who knows about Coco in here?

A bunch of people, yeah.

So I had featured this homeless person, person experiencing homelessness and his dog, Coco.

And I've done this over the years, and it's a touching reminder that we all love dogs, you know?

And we're all need recognition for loving our dogs.

And fortunately, within 24 or 48 hours of me posting this his dog was stolen.

And so it got to my heart.

And I felt compelled to help recover this dog because, Coco's life was at stake.

And so people, Ian's people came out of the woodwork.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Ian is Coco's?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yes, sorry.

Yes, Coco's human to help me strategize the way to get Coco back.

And this guy Tony, he specializes in, like, high risk recovery of dogs.

He's like, what was the way you described it before?

>> Juliana DeWillems: Dog the bounty hunter.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Dog the bounty hunter.

[laughing] >> Elias Weiss Friedman: Tony Pagano.

And so I was just like, on the phone with him, like, “what do I do?” Like, we're like, in battle, trying to get this dog back.

And we had footage of this perpetrator who had his own dog and had stolen this dog and essentially was planning to breed them and sell the puppies.

And so it was a long week, and we felt like we were so close to finding him with her spottings and putting this out to almost 11 million people around the world who are all following the story and all hoping for a happy ending.

And we got to get... I was thinking, funnily, like the movie "Billy Madison" or "The Puppy Who Lost His Way," the book.

And he's like, you got to get out there and find that effing dog.

[laughing] And that's how I felt.

I was like, I was on the streets looking for Coco.

Like, if anyone sees this dog, we got to get this dog.

And yesterday the NYPD and Tony and spotted this guy sleeping in a park with these two dogs, and they got Coco back.

[applause] And that's an amazing feeling.

And obviously sort of the beginning of the next phase of this journey, because Ian is an addict and he lives on the street, and now he's in an apartment.

And we want to continue this positive path for them so that this doesn't happen again.

But it really taught me a lot about how vulnerable people living on the street are and how important their pets are to them, because they're often the thing that is keeping them alive and serves as a point of hope for them.

One of the beneficiaries of the dog fund this year is an organisation called the Street Dog Coalition, basically specializes in helping support the unhoused community with veterinary care and ways to allow them to stay with their pets.

>> Juliana DeWillems: In your book, you wrote... Definitely.

[applause] In your book, you talked about how with your dog photos, you actually tried to generally take them without the person.

So to really focus on the dog.

And I noticed that in Coco's photos, Ian is always in the background, whether that was intentional or not.

But I feel like it really spoke to their incredible bond and relationship and how one can't be without the other.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

I mean, Coco is not the typical dog living life on a couch, and all this predictability.

And she is faring fine.

She's a resilient shepherd.

But I felt like you were saying it was important to convey the context through which this was their living.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I appreciate the thoughtfulness.

Very cool.

Thank you for sharing that very happy ending with us.

Alexandra, I have a specific question about a dog's sense of smell.

But first, can you explain to us how powerful their sense of smell is, both in function and in necessity in their life?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Sure.

Yeah, right.

>> Juliana DeWillems: How much time do we have?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah.

I mean, what is interesting about their sense of smell can be seen first in their anatomy, right?

So their long snout is actually not part of smell, but back of their snout, they have hundreds of millions more olfactory receptor cells, which are the cells which grab odors out of the air to be noticed than we do.

But that whole snout is about warming the air and grabbing and starting to take apart smells so that they can start to smell things even before it gets to the area where they'll be sent to the brain.

Their nostrils have independent muscles so that they sniff differently with the left and right nostril, and with each one, like our eyes are taking a little odor picture of the world that they then can reconstruct as a kind of 3D odor scene, if you can imagine.

They exhale out the side slits of their nose instead of through the nostril, so that they never have to not smell for a moment.

Like, we don't want to blink every time we're taking a pause from seeing, right?

So they do a kind of circular breathing.

So their whole body is constructed to smell.

And there's even their olfactory bulb, which is right behind the nose, leads directly to visual cortex.

So there's this important connection between smell and seeing.

So I think it is their primary sense or it's not always the first thing they use.

But they're seeing... they're smelling the world the way we see it essentially.

>> Juliana DeWillems: So this isn't my question, but I do want to confirm with you it is important that people let their dogs sniff on walks and stop and smell the roses?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yes, I completely talk about smell walks in my book, which are basically your dog stops and smells whatever they want to smell because basically when your dog goes out on with you on a walk, that's the thrill of the day, right?

And they're smelling not just what's there right now, which it might be invisible to you, but like, who has been by dog or person or any other animal, what's happened in the past and when they're and who has been there, right?

Everyone knows that they use urine to leave information about themselves, and they're also smelling everyone else who has been there before and then looking for them.

So that's a key part of their sort of social life.

To pull them away from smelling is sort of like driving by the Grand Canyon and then like yanking your head away from the window as you drive by.

Like, that is their Grand Canyon.

So I always let them sniff.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: The way I've heard it's been said recently also is it's like taking a good book out of their hands that they're reading.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Completely.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Taking their phone out of their hand when they're scrolling social media.

And none of you would like that.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: But why do they have to sniff so closely, right?

If they can... But it's like you're viewing the Mona Lisa from across the room.

It's different when you get closer.

I'm not saying like other dogs, butts are Mona Lisa to them, but like, a little bit.

Yeah.

[laughing] >> Juliana DeWillems: So knowing how powerful their sense of smell is, you tell us that dogs do not get used to smells.

They do not go nose blind the way that humans do.

Should I be worried about using candles or scented cleaners in my house?

Am I giving my dog a headache?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, it's a great question because there is good evidence that although they don't get inured to smells the way when we go in a coffee shop, it smells like coffee, and then a few minutes later we're kind of adjusted to it.

There are some smells which are noxious to them, and a lot of chemical smells are things that we think smell good, are kind of covering up the smells that for them are just what is in the room.

So I wouldn't say never wash your dog, but I'd say like they don't need to smell like coconut lavender shampoo all the time, right?

That's who they are to them.

And even you, although you have might put on a lot of odorants, whatever, soaps, lotions, perfumes, they still recognize the smell of you underneath that, even the cleanest of us, we have a smell and that's who you are to them.

So I think that in a way, for them, it just interferes with them seeing what's in the room.

>> Mark Rowlands: I wanted to thank you, actually for taking the guilt out of my runs with my dog now, because when you get to my age, I mean, any opportunity to stop.

Yeah, that's right.

And so now I can do without any guilt.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: That's absolutely right.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Sorry, my dog wants to smell.

I guess we got to stop running.

[laughing] >> Mark Rowlands: The runs take a bit longer now, but it doesn't really matter.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: I have one more question.

Why is it that they roll in poop?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: It's such a good question.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: We've had to find a hose for Elsa.

We were like, visiting the Hamptons.

And she rolled in deer crap.

And, like, we got to find a hose.

It's like, why does she think it smells great and wants to... >> Juliana DeWillems: Stinkier the better?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: It is like it's one of the things science hasn't quite answered yet, but we have our theories, right?

And that one is really that that it's like a great smell.

And they want to wear it, right?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: I mean, if you were... And another thing is that they're trying to get their smell potentially to cover that smell, right?

But if you think about their distant ancestors, some relation of wolves, they would roll around all the time to leave information about themselves and where their territory markers were, right?

So if there's a little deer poo there when you roll around, all the better, right?

They're leaving information about themselves, so we don't know exactly.

But... >> Elias Weiss Friedman: And the kicking grass after they go.

Same idea?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Another interesting question.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Sorry.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: No, that's what the great thing is.

It's not like science has all the answers.

Like everybody who lives with dogs has great ideas about what the purpose of things are.

Science is just like one way to try to answer the question.

That one, I think there are two good hypotheses, actually.

One is that they kick the grass because it's actually like a visual marker to other dogs of where their smell is, right?

Because a), there's smell in their paw pads.

So they're leaving smell.

And also then they're leaving like an arrow because as much as something that they've left might smell, it doesn't smell forever.

It smells only when you get close to it eventually and stick your nose in it, which some other dog is going to do.

So here's the arrow to where that is.

And it might just also feel good, right?

>> Juliana DeWillems: Fascinating.

Well, if you could put those on your list to study moving forward, Elias will check in with you... >> Alexandra Horowitz: If I get my ideas.

Yeah.

[laughing] >> Juliana DeWillems: Mark, a big part of your book is exploring the concept of self-awareness.

You discuss if a dog is capable of reflection and what you call pre-reflection.

Ultimately, you decide dogs are likely not capable of reflection and that they are better off for it.

Why is it that a dog's inability to reflect the way humans do might actually be helping them live better lives?

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah, I was struck.

One of the realizations that was bound up with the writing of this book was, I think this is what motivated it as much as anything was the realization that, dogs love their lives more than we love ours.

And I think you can you see this all the time.

I mean, their ability to take delight in the marginally positive.

So one recent example I was running with Shadow, this was about 18 months ago, and we were a couple of miles out from home, and he gave this loud shriek and dropped to the ground.

His back legs were completely paralyzed.

So, this was a problem, right?

Because my wife was out of town.

My oldest son, who could drive was out of the country.

My youngest son was still asleep in bed, and so and to cut a long story short, my son had to cycle over.

I took his bike back, brought the wrong car back.

I brought the Jeep and then we couldn't lift him up because every time I tried to pick him up, he's [growling].

And so I went back, got a car, managed to push him in, and there was one thing he did, and this is the point of this little story.

One thing he did, during during this time, which I think will always stick with me, is that, when he fell over, when he fell to the ground, he was in the sun, and in the sun in Miami is not a good place to be for a dog.

So, what he did using his front legs, his back legs were still completely paralyzed.

Using his front legs, he dragged himself about 20ft from the sun into the shade.

And in many ways, it's been a sort of privilege to grow old with this dog because you come to understand more the sort of the value of the marginally positive.

And so there he was, a terrible thing had just happened to him.

An awful thing had just happened.

But at least now he was in the shade rather than the sun.

I think that's a very kind of useful lesson to have when you reach a certain point in your life.

And why are dogs like this?

Why can dogs take such delight in the marginally positive?

And one of the answers I explored in the book, which I think is probably the right one is that, they have one life that their abilities to reflect on themselves.

Alexandra has done some fantastic work on this with olfactory self-awareness.

I think what we can conclude is that dogs may be self-aware to some extent, but they're not self-aware to... They're not self-aware to the extent that we are, right?

So they're not aware of themselves in the kind of we agonize over ourselves.

I'm doing this, should I do this or should I do that?

A dog doesn't agonize, you know.

Oh, I was out on that walk, and I picked up that stick.

But wouldn't I really be better picking up the other one?

So dogs don't think about themselves, about their motivations, in that sort of way.

And I think in many ways they're sort of better off for it.

Ultimately, once you have this ability, once you have it and we humans in the world heavyweight champions of thinking about ourselves, once you have this ability, then you have two lives.

There's the life that you live and there's the life that you agonize over, the life that you scrutinize, wondering if you should have done different and so on.

And having two lives, I think, inevitably detracts from the quality of each one.

You're like a deadbeat dad who has two different families on different coasts you can't quite invest in, in sort of either one.

So I think dogs probably love their lives more than we love ours, because they only have one life and we have two.

>> Juliana DeWillems: There you go.

[applause] >> Elias Weiss Friedman: And in terms of their sense of time, like there's this factor of seven, right?

Dogs live seven times like seven years for every year we're around something like that?

>> Mark Rowlands: I don't know if that's true.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: I feel like everyday for them is like, extremely meaningful.

They're like, let's go today, not tomorrow.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Live in the moment, kind of.

>> Mark Rowlands: There is certainly that, yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Elias, in one chapter you discuss adopting adult dogs versus puppies.

You write "When you bring an adult dog into your life, it changes the story.

Or rather, it changes the fact that it is just your story.

More specifically, you enter a story that is already in progress."

This piggybacks on your discussion of the pet overpopulation problem we have in this country.

What are some things that people can expect when they adopt an adult dog, including especially the benefits?

And I think you can speak to this personally because your dog was an adult when you adopted her?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yes.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yeah.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Elsa was a rescue from Texas.

But yeah, I think this story stemmed from this interaction I had with this dog Lunchbox.

It's a good name.

And there's just something this guy said that touched a lot of people, which was like, it took him a while to accept the fact that someone had abused his dog because he had scars on his face.

And so there's this sort of this process that happens when you welcome this dog into your life, which may have been traumatized or abused.

And they have flaws or things they need to overcome, like we all do.

And it just teaches us about patience and resilience and ability to change, and inspires us to have believe in the fact that we can change and that the people around us can change.

And so a lot of people hesitate to rescue and to even visit a shelter because it's overwhelming emotionally.

And a lot of people just want to go pick up a puppy, and raise it on their own.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

But I've visited so many shelters over the years, and to see all these faces that are looking for a person, their home, it's overwhelming.

And you have to sort of inevitably desensitize yourself to some degree because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it.

But I feel like it's part of my duty to, show dogs that are looking for a home.

If any of you guys visited shelters, you know what I'm talking about.

There's an overpopulation problem in the country, especially in the South, where there is space based euthanasia.

And so it's important to try and alleviate that problem and help people open their minds up to the possibility of adopting a dog that may take a little bit of patience and time to become the perfect dog, yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: An added bonus, yes, definitely.

[applause] >> Alexandra Horowitz: I also think, too, that... and I've always lived with dogs who we've who from shelters or rescue organizations.

One thing that's nicer, actually about adopting a dog who's not a puppy is you actually see them as a person, right?

You see, there's like a weird idea when you get a puppy that you could just completely design them, and therefore they should be perfect because you've seen them from the beginning and then if they're not perfect, you don't want to suggest maybe it was something about you that wasn't perfect, right?

But it must be them.

So there's a lot of frustration that people experience when they get puppies, and then they just they can't completely mold them into who they want them to be.

When you're dealing with a dog who's a little bit older, you get to see that they're already their own person.

And I think that's great, I love that.

I mean, I missed sometimes who they might have been before I met them, but I think that that's kind of an advantage with a dog who you adopt later on.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

I've heard people saying like they're waiting for their dog.

And I think that's just a great way to go about it is to foster basically like take a dog for a test drive, like for a week, see if it's a good fit.

And if it's not, then you did something noble.

You're helping alleviate the overpopulation.

So, yeah, it's like you're saying it's like you're meeting the dog as an adult.

I met Elsa when she was one years old.

And I had all these expectations, like you're saying, like, oh, well, she's a husky.

She's going to be... How could I keep a husky in the city?

And she did escape once.

[laughs] But she dispelled those myths, and she's the perfect dog for me, for us.

[applause] >> Juliana DeWillems: Alexandra, when it comes to if a dog can tell time, there are two conflicting ideas that get confidently repeated by dog owners that dogs live in the moment and don't worry about the passing of time, and that dogs absolutely can tell time because as you write about, we have all seen our dogs remind us when we are late to feeding them dinner.

[laughing] You did put this in the chapter of stuff we don't quite know yet, but what do we understand about a dog's understanding of time?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, I think they have a pretty good understanding of time.

I mean, of course, time is just a human concept, right?

And so it's not going to be identical to our understanding of time, but they understand the passage of the day very well.

And there are lots of ways they could, through the increase in heat in a room over the course of the day, smells naturally rise.

Air rises along the sides of a room as the day warms, and then it kind of goes to the ceiling and drops.

So if you're tracking that, if that's how you see the room, then you're noticing what time of day it is just by the smells in the air currents, right?

And they, like every animal, have cells, every cell in their body, right, has the super... has a kind of timekeeper.

So they're noticing biologically the passage of time in just the way we are.

They're just not wearing the watches.

And then there's one really nice study which, people like to say to me, like, my dog, I could leave the house for two minutes and I come back and the dog is delighted to see me, which is great, but maybe makes it seem like they don't have any idea how long you've been gone.

So there were some researchers in Sweden who wanted to test this.

This is like how we get our ideas is what people say about dogs.

And then like, can you put that to a study?

And so they basically videotaped dogs whose people left for half an hour or an hour or several hours, and they looked at the intensity of their greeting on return.

Like how much like lip licking and tail wagging and vocalizing they gave.

And the good news is they gave a delighted greeting to see their person every time.

But the longer they'd been gone, the happier they were, right?

Like the more lip licking and and jumping on and vocalizing and tail wagging, right?

So they're showing in their bodies that they feel the length of your absence.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: And that they have to pee.

[laughing] >> Juliana DeWillems: Right.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: There could be that.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Happy you're home, take me outside.

Mark, were you going to say something?

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah.

No, I think when people talk about dogs living in the moment, they're trying to say something true and important, but it's not quite what they think they want to say.

And it's more the dogs.

There are two things that we do in life.

The things we do for the sake of something else, for external reward.

Like we work to get paid.

And the other things we do are all forms of play.

You know where we're doing something just for the sake of doing it.

And at that precise moment in time, there's nothing more we'd rather be doing.

I think dogs understand that play is what makes life worth living, and work is something, if you've got to do it, you've got to do it.

But it's those things that we do for their own sake, that are the important things in life.

And I think that's what people really have in mind when they talk about dogs living in the moment.

Because, as Alexandra says, they do have a really quite sophisticated sense of time.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Amazing.

Well, we are almost at the 15-minute mark, so I'm going to ask one more question of our authors here.

But if you have a question you can start moving your way to the microphones.

We're going to get to as many questions once it's time for as we can.

But if a bunch of you line up, we are going to have to cut off at the hour mark.

So I'm going to quickly ask you all a question, and you can share whatever feelings you come to mind.

Maybe we can try to keep it brief, so that we can get to as many questions as we can.

In 2024, the U.S.

patent industry was estimated at $152 billion.

Pet owners are spending record breaking numbers on food, vet care and extra services like grooming and training.

We are treating dogs like family more than ever, but at the same time, dogs are living lives that are the furthest from what they were designed to do.

In what ways do you think modern society gets it right and or gets it wrong about life with dogs?

Anybody have initial thoughts?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: I mean, well, I will say that 75% of the world's dogs are living free ranging lives.

They are living in villages, on streets, in communities.

They're mostly not encapsulated in that multibillion dollar pet industry complex, right?

But by the way, those are probably closer to what dogs were originally like living among us and around us, and because of us, but not necessarily needing sweaters.

[laughing] >> Juliana DeWillems: Does anybody else have thoughts on that topic?

Elias.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: I would say there's also like an internet factor here.

Like, and I know I'm part of the dogs on the internet.

>> Juliana DeWillems: From the dog internet man himself.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yes.

But there's so many pictures of dogs that we share now.

And we compare our lives to others and we say, oh, well, if that dog gets to do this, then maybe I should also go to that hotel.

And or buy that cute sweater.

And so it's something I think most people celebrate this, like dogs living better lives and fewer people are having children or are at a later age.

And so dogs sort of fill this... I've heard people say that dogs activate a new chamber of your heart.

And so I think people like to express their love for their dogs.

And as long as it's benign and the dog isn't overheating in their sweater or.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Restricted in their movement.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Right.

You don't need to put the dog in a stroller if it can walk Right.

Then I think it's mostly a happy thing.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yes, yes.

And a good reminder that that one picture on Instagram took probably a hundred takes.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: A lot of shots.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yeah.

[laughs] >> Mark Rowlands: Yeah, I mean, it's not surprising that dogs are assuming such a large role.

I mean, they love us.

And that's kind of important.

Especially it's getting more and more important by the year.

So you come home from, your dreams have died just a little more that day, and your dog says, "You are awesome."

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yes.

>> Mark Rowlands: And I think who doesn't need that?

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yeah.

Amazing.

Well, thank you all for your questions, to your answers to my questions.

And we will now move to audience questions.

And I do ask that when you ask your questions, we want to try to keep it general about the books about dogs in general.

If you have a question about your specific dog, maybe you can try to phrase it in a way that will apply to everyone so that we are getting the most out of these questions and answers.

We'll start over here at this microphone.

>> Okay.

I just have a couple comments and one question.

There is an organization in San Francisco called Muttville, which is geared to finding homes for older dogs.

And then I had a comment about you, Alexander, you mentioned that you sort of changed your vocabulary regarding dogs, and you now see them or talk to them like they're family members.

And I think that, I'm an animal lover, and I think that can be true of a lot of animals.

And I'm just curious whether you have any comments or thoughts on why we culturally focus so much on dogs, but there are so many other animals that are also just as endearing and smart that have different kinds of treatment.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, absolutely.

That's true.

And then another ballroom there's probably a cat convention happening.

But I mean, actually my current book that I'm working on is biographical portraits of animals, and they're not dogs.

And because one of the things that studying dogs just pointed out to me was that dogs are just one of many non-human animals which have rich lives, sensory capacities beyond what we can imagine.

Like our living their own lives and have their own stories.

And some of those stories should be told.

So I'm telling the story of a wild horse and an orangutan, and a pig at a sanctuary and a laboratory rat, etc.

So I hope we do focus on that.

And maybe in some ways, dogs are kind of a gateway drug into really looking at other animals and realizing the richness and importance and complexity of their lives for their own sakes.

>> Thank you.

>> Mark Rowlands: When... Okay, doesn't matter.

It's all right.

>> Juliana DeWillems: You sure?

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: All right.

We'll go to this microphone.

>> So I have a question for Alexandria.

So from what I've seen of dogs, like they sniff a lot obviously outside, but especially before they use the bathroom.

I was wondering if you knew like what in like of what they smell of the ground determines when they choose to use the bathroom.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah.

That's a great question.

You've got like a scientific mind, right?

Like so often they're sniffing to sniff for remnants of other dogs leavings, right?

Which sometimes they want to contribute to, right, cover, add to I mean, there is a little bit of a conversation happening.

I've been here.

I was here as well.

Just the way we tag underpasses and leave our mark.

So theyre sniffing for who else was there before.

And that makes it the perfect spot.

Thanks.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Fascinating.

Right here.

>> I'm a third grade teacher, and I know there's been some work on the connection between literacy and dogs.

Kids feel more comfortable somehow reading to a dog than a person.

Can any of you speak to ways to sort of bolster that in schools that maybe doesn't necessarily involve bringing a dog into a school where there might be an allergy or something like that?

Looking to improve my student's literacy.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: That's a great question.

>> Mark Rowlands: Yeah.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah.

I mean, I've done programs, a series with organizations like that.

There's nothing like a shy kid reading to a non-judgmental being that's with no other kids around who maybe would bully them if they have a stutter or they are slow at reading.

So it's an incredible opportunity for programs like that.

I'm not exactly sure like in terms of if there's issues with getting dogs into spaces like that, I know it's always an issue with getting therapy dogs into hospitals.

But that's an interesting question.

Yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: I would say definitely a stuffed animal would be a great replacement.

Read to... >> Elias Weiss Friedman: Virtually, you know.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Read like a dog on a computer.

Which, by the way, I know people who did that during Covid.

They had the therapy team was on Zoom and connected.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: That reminds me, yeah, that in hospital, like the kids, the children's wing, the dog can only be in one room.

So there's a closed circuit television network.

So they're all watching the same dog.

And if there are issues with contamination and allergies, that solves that too.

So maybe dog TV.

Dog TV sounds great.

Thank you.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Right here.

>> I'm curious about dog head tilting.

It seems that there I have a pug, and they're very tilting oriented, and it's very adorable, it's very sweet.

So should we assume that they're listening to us?

Is it the pitch in our voice?

Like what is it, what drives it?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, there actually was a research group in Europe who just studied head tilting in dogs, because that's one of those basic behaviors which we sort of assume we know what it is.

But in this case, I think your assumptions are actually pretty close to what they found, which was that it indicated recognition of a voice that was familiar or attention.

right?

Like they're trying to listen like a pigeon bobs their head to, like, see the scene in front of them.

They're turning their head to actually get a better stereo sound of what you're saying.

>> Mark Rowlands: Is there any dominance of head tilt or are they just... >> Alexandra Horowitz: I think they're preferences, but not necessarily dominant, although that's a study.

We could do that study.

[laughing] >> Mark Rowlands: Well, yes they do.

He does actually, yeah, yeah.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: So watch your dogs and see if it's one side or both.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: Yeah, it's like the human version of, “excuse me, excuse me, excuse me.” >> Alexandra Horowitz: But cuter.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Right.

Definitely.

>> I love it.

Thank you.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Right here.

>> With dog sensitivity to smell, do they pick up on a person who is frightened of dogs?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Oh, great question.

And they're people used to say dogs can smell fear.

And it turns out, yes, they kind of can, right?

In other words, they can smell a stressed person even putting apart body language, which is actually really significant if somebody is frightened around dogs, their body language usually reveals that.

But also stress has a smell and dogs can distinguish stressed from non-stressed people.

That doesn't mean that they then take that information and attack.

It just means they're recognizing that somebody is feeling stressed.

And by the way, dogs have a little contagious reaction to that so they can sometimes get more stressed, too, if they're around people who are stressed.

>> Is that how they pick up also on people with cancer?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Well, I mean, >> Alexandra Horowitz: Well, the sense of smell, right?

When the cancer cases, they're noticing something different, right?

And dogs, even dogs who are not trained, might start worrying or noticing a smell on a body that they're familiar with that is so different because the cells smell.

They have a smell.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: I've seen that like in reality, PTSD service dogs for veterans who will dissociate and have an episode of flashback.

And the dog can basically sense it before it happens and intervene and bring them back to the present moment before it even happens, yeah.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Thank you.

Remarkable.

Right here.

>> So first of all, thank you for your time today and for the books you've written.

Please tell your dogs that we said hi.

[laughing] I would like to hear from you about interactions between dogs and children in your research and writing.

So either interactions you've observed or in particular parallels between behavioral or cognitive development that you see between kids and dogs.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: People really like to say that, that dogs are sort of like cognitively the same as young kids, which I find bizarre, really, because having had a young kid and a dog, they're just on completely different trajectories.

But what they mean is that, like some of the types of cognitive skills that young kids pass at age two or three are things that dogs can pass as well.

Sort of object permanence things, understanding that something is not there when... Or still there when they don't see it, and understanding other's attention.

So like when can you steal the treat/cookie, is when the parent leaves the room like they understand those things, sort of like a young child would, but otherwise they're just in a really different trajectory of life.

So I don't think the comparison is usually made in the sciences.

Anyway, I don't know if you want to add anything, Mark.

>> Mark Rowlands: No, I had a young dog and a young child roughly the same time.

And I mean, to be honest, I thought it was neck and neck for the first 18 months.

[laughing] But I was probably a little biased in some way.

No, it's impossible to disagree with Alexandra on that.

They're different trajectories.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: I always want to hear.

[laughing] >> Great.

Thank you.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Right here.

>> So I have two Bichons.

One of them is five years old and the other is two years old.

They're half brothers.

And when my wife and I watch television at night, I can't help but notice that if there's an animal on the screen, whether it's a horse or another dog, the younger one goes wild.

He's barking and just yelping.

So what's going on there?

And the older one does not pick up on that at all.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, I mean, the people who've made dog the actual dog TV would love to tell you that dogs all love watching TV, but there have been great studies that show that dogs who are watching screens of various sorts would prefer to just look at a screen with nothing on it, for the most part.

But of course, the shape of something moving or the sounds of an animal will attract a lot of dogs attention.

And the thing is, they're not having the same experience of a 2D representation of the world as we do.

So there's probably a lot of confusion in that reaction.

>> Mark Rowlands: Sort of frozen a strobe light.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Well, if it were the old fashioned TVs, right, like if it's not digital TV, right?

They also don't even see the scene the way we do, because their flicker fusion rate, the rate at which their eyes process light, is different than ours.

So it's sort of like an old fashioned movie which is slowed down in the reel.

They see every frame of the scene, but with digital TVs, they can see it.

Yeah, yeah, they can see it really well.

>> Mark Rowlands: Has there been any uptick in dogs interest in TV?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: No.

They want to be in a room without TV for the most part and without music, they don't share our habits in all respects.

They put up with them.

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: What would you say about mirrors, though?

Like do you think that they think it's another dog or?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah.

They don't pass this classic test of science, which is the mirror recognition test, where they look at the mirror like we do and are like, that's me, and I'm looking pretty good today, They don't do that.

They seem to see it as maybe another dog.

And some dogs look behind for where that dog is, and some dogs just bark at that dog and some dogs are bored.

>> Mark Rowlands: But dogs look behind TVs as well.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, right.

So they don't see that as a representation.

But they do recognize their odor mirror.

But that's another program.

We'll talk about that next time.

>> Mark Rowlands: Well, Alexander is being very modest.

She's done the groundbreaking work on olfactory self-recognition.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Thank you.

>> Juliana DeWillems: All right.

We can squeeze in one last question right here.

Sorry to everyone else who has been waiting for questions.

Amazing questions so far.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: But we'll be at the book signing.

>> Juliana DeWillems: Yes, which I'll talk about in a second.

Yes, definitely.

>> First of all, you guys are really, all influential in your... and I'm just really impressed.

I'm going to school for pre-veterinary, and I'm just wondering, how do you find yourself in these really incredible niche jobs and get to work so closely with animals and just, like, find yourself in this really memorable space in the literature world?

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah, do you want to start?

How did that start?

>> Elias Weiss Friedman: How did I find?

Well, I've always loved animals.

I grew up with a dog, multiple dogs.

My aunt was a vet.

So sort of steeped in this, this idea that dogs make us happier.

And as a shy kid, having Ruby was really an important core part of my life growing up.

And I was into cameras and had a darkroom in the house.

So my origin story retrospectively all makes sense, and it was always a fantasy for me to do what I'm doing right now.

And back in 2013, it seemed insane to be a dog photographer, but I was crazy enough at the time to believe that everyone else would love this project.

And it turns out that bet was right.

And so if you have a passion for animals and caring for them, then you should pursue that.

>> Mark Rowlands: I would add that once I got tenure... [laughing] I could study what I want, when I want, and I mean, before that, people say, what are you doing?

Working on animal minds that you can't possibly do that, but once you're established, basically do what you want because you'll do much better work if you're doing something you love than otherwise.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: And I never had tenure but I still did it, you know.

And I think it was just similar to what Elias was saying I followed... Nobody was studying dogs like this when I started studying.

I started studying dog play, and it was really rich and full of interesting interactions.

And they were using each other's attention to communicate.

And I saw something there, and then I just convinced people around me that that's what I should study for my dissertation.

And then I just followed the next passion I had, right?

It won't always work out, but you have to lean into the thing which makes sense to you and then prove it to everyone around you.

And I'm sure you will.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Alexandra Horowitz: Yeah.

[applause] [upbeat music]