Heffner: I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

I'm delighted to welcome today the co-founders of the Hear Foundation, Leon Ford and Scott Schubert, formerly chief of the Pittsburgh Police Department.

Thank you both for joining me today.

I appreciate your time, gentlemen.

Ford: Thanks for having us.

Heffner: Uh, Leon, let me ask you about the formation of the Hear Foundation.

Um, can you share the story of how you and retired Chief Schubert, uh, met and decided to embark on this journey?

Ford: Absolutely.

You know, it, it's, uh, it's very powerful story.

We weren't always the best of friends.

Um, actually after the, uh, George Floyd, uh, protest, I had went on a rant on Twitter where I called the Chief, uh, racist, said he didn't care about black people, and, you know, said a bunch of other negative things about him.

And then, um, a mentor of mine ended up reaching out to me and she said, you know, have you ever sat down with the chief?

You know, and at that point, I had not.

I had not ever, like, you know, I saw him in, you know, public and, and everything, but we had ne never really broke bread together.

And she, you know, put together this meeting at her office where we got to come together and talk.

And I tell you that first, you know, interaction.

You know, I didn't know what to expect.

You know, I've heard him share his, you know, perspective.

He didn't know what to expect, but we showed up as our authentic selves and, you know, shared our stories, and we, we got to know each other as human beings.

And, um, that first, you know, encounter really turned into us, um, meeting and, and talking almost every week.

Um, and, and, you know, and then we, we began thinking about, you know, um, how we could have a positive impact on the city that we love, which was, which was Pittsburgh.

And, um, you know, we got together with a bunch of mutual friends, uh, who, who now serves as our executive committee, and we were able to organize the Hear Foundation Heffner: Chief, it's an inspiring reunion.

Uh, tell us about your story of meeting Leon and the impetus driving the Hear Foundation.

Schubert: Yeah.

As, as Leon said, you know, when we're going through a lot of things in 2020, um, you know, there was a lot of things going on social media and, and, and, and whatnot.

And, you know, he wasn't the only one that was, was taking shots at me, uh, on social media.

Uh, but, but what I thought to myself was like, um, he doesn't even know me, um, to call me things.

You, you, you don't know who I am.

Uh, and, uh, so when we had the, the opportunity to, uh, meet, uh, I was, I was suspect like, what, what is this?

Is this, uh, is this going to be an agenda on something?

Is this going to be, um, you know, something that I wasn't expecting or whatnot?

But I think once we had the opportunity to talk and get to, to know one of each other on another, and, um, you know, I think it, it kind of quickly changed from, you know, him talking about me.

He was talking probably me about, as the chief, but not me as, as the, as the person.

And, you know, me thinking of, of Leon as not, uh, like an activist or somebody that's, you know, hates the police or anything like that, but as a, as a person and found it, you know, we had a shared, uh, love for Pittsburgh.

We, we wanted, we born and raised, um, you know, we wanted to make Pittsburgh a better place.

And, uh, I think we were able to, you know, agree on a lot of things and, and, uh, figure that, you know, hey, let's, instead of being apart, let's, let's be together and see what we can do to, to make things better.

Heffner: You all transformed from having an adversarial perception of each other to a unifying one, insofar as you run an organization out that is dedicated to bettering your communities.

Chief, tell us about the work that Hear Foundation is embarking on.

What, what are you, how are you trying to translate the improvement in your relationship to the whole community?

Schubert: Yeah, so I think we were looking at really on something that we could do to help, uh, make our communities better.

Like, uh, there's 90 communities in the city of Pittsburgh, and each one has their, their own challenges.

And we know there's a lot of people out there who want to help make it better.

And it can't be just me, can't be just Leon can't be just a Pittsburgh police, can't be just, uh, any organization to, to really make an, you know, an impact in our community.

So everybody has an opportunity to, to thrive and, and live in a safe community.

Um, so we are really looking for, there's people that want to make a difference.

Um, one, they may not know how, two, they may not have the funding to, to do it.

And we felt there was an opportunity to bring a lot of people in, uh, that we, we work with, um, you know, and on our, our, our board, I mean, you have, um, you know, people who've lost a, a child or relative to, to gun violence.

You have, uh, police officers, uh, on it.

Um, you know, people that work in the community now, people that, uh, were, uh, formally incarcerated, uh, community leaders.

So we, we wanted it to not just be a few people, we wanted it to be a diverse group of people throughout the community who care about their community and can help partner to make the community better for, for everybody.

Heffner: Leon, you are a grantmaking organization that is intent on fueling opportunities for, for public safety, for increased public safety and economic wellbeing.

Would you say that those are the primary drivers of what you're attempting to achieve?

Or are you looking at it more tactically from how can we improve relations between communities and law enforcement?

Ford: It's a both end, right?

Um, and so that initial meeting that I had with, um, with Scott, you know, we, like, we, there's several things we could have spoken about where we, you know, would disagree on this or that.

What we really did was we linked into three things that we agreed on that we cared about, and that was workforce development, gun violence reduction, and mental health.

You know?

And so those are our three pillars that we, we focus on.

And, you know, and we we're the Hear Foundation.

So we're, we're, we're going out and we're listening to, um, the voices of people in the community we're listening to, you know, institutions we're listening to the police, right?

And, and we're, you know, uh, tailoring our approach based on the needs of, of the community.

Um, and so it, it's really empowering be because like, because, um, there are so many people within the community who they know what they need, right?

They just need like some, you know, uh, capacity building some support, and we kind of see ourselves as like the nucleus, right?

Because what we have, you know, relationships on both sides, and we're able to bring people together.

And it's interesting because a lot of, you know, the solutions that folks in the, in the community want are very similar to what, you know, the police want as well, right?

And, and so it's just, you know, uh, leveraging our platform to bring these different groups together, um, and then, you know, funding their ideas.

Heffner: To the extent, Leon, that overcoming this is attitudinal as opposed to economic investments, right?

The, the, the metamorphosis you each underwent in your relationship, um, to understand that there was, there was commonality, uh, common humanity, common goals, um, from, from that first perspective of just attitudinal shifts, what is it that, that you learned about Scott, the retired chief, um, and I'll ask Scott the same question, but that you learned about him and his plight, um, as a public safety officer and, and leader, in effect.

Um, and what do you think it is that he learned from your perspective on the, in the aftermath of the Floyd murder and also the coming realization of inequitable treatment of, of black and brown folks?

Um, what is it that you each learned from each other attitudinally that you can try to pass on to the community?

Ford: Absolutely.

So that first, you know, meeting I, like I said, I got to share my story.

He got to share his story.

We got to understand each other as human beings.

And I am very transparent in talking about my mental health journey, right?

I wouldn't be here, right, as the co-founder of the Hear Foundation had I not ever want to see a therapist and, and work through that trauma.

And so a lot of times, like, you know what, we've, I've seen, you know, locally and nationally, I've seen people, you know, throw, try to throw money at this issue, right?

And say, you know, we're going to, you know, commit, you know, a hundred million dollars to this issue.

Um, but what, what, what's what I found to be even more important is the relationship building, right?

Because when we're able to acknowledge our pain on both sides, right, um, acknowledge, you know, uh, some mishaps and, and work through that together in a way where we understand that as human beings, we are complicated.

You know, I may have a belief today that may change tomorrow based on, you know, information that I may receive, and then next week I can go back to believing, you know, the, the something else I believe, right?

And so, you know, given that grace, right, that understanding, you know, what was really helpful, understanding what Scott was faced with, you know, as the chief and some of the tough decisions that he had to make, right?

And, and, and some of the things that, you know, were working against him and, and the decisions that, you know, he wanted to make to, to, to bring things forward.

So it was much more complicated than- Heffner: Before I turn it over to Scott, in your conversations with the community, do you think you've been persuasive enough that, that you have changed minds based on that meeting and the formation of here?

Because there, there were things that, that he may have said, or that the department may have said at that perilous moment as we were facing this pandemic the first year of the pandemic, um, that that made people feel like he's not an ally.

But in your conversations, are you discerning why people may still feel that way?

And if so, how you can help them reorient?

Ford: Yeah.

So, so for me, it's, it's less about being persuasive than it is about being authentic, right?

And, and sharing those stories, but also while I'm sharing those stories, connecting the community to some of the police officers, right?

Like, I, I had a, uh, a lunch with, uh, one of the officers that, that we work with.

And, you know, on my way there, I was driving down the street and, and, and I saw one of my mentees just hanging out on the corner, and, you know, I was just like, I'm going to this meeting.

He come with me, and I took him to the meeting with me.

And, you know, she wasn't in uniform.

Uh, so he didn't immediately know she was a police officer, right?

But then we, we got into the conversation and he shared, and you know, when he found out she was a police officer, he was like, whoa.

She, like, she was real.

And I was like, yeah, she's a human being.

And so, you know, I'm very intentional about, uh, when I bring officers into this space, bringing the, like they, obviously they're police officers, that's their job, but they're human beings.

And when we connect human beings to human beings to have conversations about our city, about our communities, then, you know, people on both sides are, are more receptive.

Heffner: Chief, let me turn that to you, about attitudinal change, um, and, and the department seeing the community as an ally and, um, what these, these last months as you formed the foundation and embarked on your mission have meant to you.

Um, and, and how you can try to inspire that culture, um, to be a unifying culture.

Um, you know, where the communities and, and police officers and law enforcement are allies.

Schubert: So I, you know, for, for me, and, and I'll just say it, I love, um, my profession.

I loved what I did.

Uh, I loved working with the community.

We did a lot of different outreach things in, in the past.

Um, you know, I've always tried to, um, pride myself with trying to look through the lens of others, um, with, with how I looked at any type of situation.

Um, but it was, it was challenging in 2020, uh, with everything going on.

Uh, I mean, I was getting thousands of auto generated emails of, uh, how much, you know, people don't like us and don't like what we do and how we should change and, and, and this and that.

And, you know, I, I took a, a long, hard look at, um, you know, Hey, I'm trying to, to do the best I can and to do right with what I do and with what our agency does.

Um, you know, but there had to, there had to be some rebuilding.

And, and I recognize that, um, I mean, I walked around the communities throughout the city just to, to learn really what the people think about us.

And as we got into this aspect of it with, uh, you know, eventually forming the, the, the foundation, um, I thought like, this is it.

I mean, this is it, it sounds so simple.

Um, but we we're actually doing it.

I mean, we're bringing all of the stakeholders together in a unified front, um, because I believe police in the community are the same.

We we're in the same community.

We, we have the same, uh, you know, wants to, to live in a safe community and to thrive.

And here we're able to bring everybody together on a unified front to help make that a reality.

And that's, that's why, uh, to me, the Hear Foundation is, is, is so special.

And, um, and I think it's going to do a lot of, lot of great things for, for our city.

Heffner: Chief, we've talked about attitudinal change.

Um, but then there's the, the crux of it.

Um, some of the debates that we've had lately, there's sort of the cliche or trope about bad apples, right?

That's one thing that's been in the discourse in recent years, like the defense of the integrity of the department and the debate over, um, whether, you know, there is a plurality or, or, you know, a majority, or this is a minority who would maybe be incentivized by the wrong thing, whether that's, um, you know, brutality or just the methods that are not humane.

Um, when you think of, of the policy framework, right, in, in areas where either the investment can make a difference, to Leon's point, it doesn't always dollars and cents.

Um, there's also been the discussion about the learning of police departments and the, the, the, the tension there between whether police officers ought to have the skills of mental health counselors or social workers, or if that's a different profession.

Uh, where do you come out here thinking about the future of the role of policing?

Do you see those skills as being integrated and, and important, um, so that law enforcement today can, um, you know, both with the appropriate defense and empathy, um, you know, manage this profession successfully?

Schubert: So I, I think society as a whole, um, put police in a position to answer every 911 call, no matter what it is.

My eight-year-old daughter won't go to school, call 911, see somebody walking down a street that, I don't know, call 911.

Uh, I see somebody talking to themselves, call 911.

Um, and for the most part, the officers, um, they don't receive the level of training that, that you would have in a, in a practitioner that works with mental health or, or homelessness or addiction and things like that.

Uh, we have very limited training on those various things.

Um, but when somebody calls an officer's going to get dispatched, an officer's going to go and try to do the best they can to help that situation.

But yeah, they may not be trained to the level where they need to be.

Um, I think there's a need for, uh, mental health.

It's a big issue in our country, uh, has been for a while, but it's, it's, it's really being looked at now.

It's a big level of mental health with, with violence, uh, as well, um, that, you know, we, we have to look at is a society.

Um, so I, what kind of hurt me was the fact that, um, society put, put, put all this on the police, and then when things imploded, they blamed society, blamed, uh, police for it, instead of addressing the issue of why didn't we adequately fund for all these programs to help communities, um, you know, thrive and get them, you know, everything that you know, you would need.

Um, so, but yeah, I, I see there's, there's a need, um, for different services, uh, to, to ensure that all of our communities, um, are treated, you know, when you, you talk about equity, uh, you know, equitable treatment for, for everybody.

And, um, I, I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done.

Uh, but I think we're going in, in the right direction with what we're trying to do here as well, uh, to ensure that we're inclusive with everything we do to make all of our communities, uh, you know, a, a safer thriving place for you to, in your family, to, to live and work Heffner: Leon, as the victim of unjust and unjustified, uh, brutality.

Um, you know what, when you come at this from the perspective of, of, um, how we can make things better, like most, I impactfully most immediately, um, where do you see the opportunities for that systemic change?

Um, I hear the chief saying there was, there became an over-reliance on police to perform the services of various industries, um, uh, that, you know, the, the line of protecting the American people is not strictly police, it's nurses, it's doctors, it's, uh, counselors.

Um, would you say that investing in those professions is maybe the most important or one of the most important, um, ways that, that we can proceed to prevent unjust and unjustified actions like the ones you were victim of?

Ford: I think investing in experts is very important.

And one of the things that we recognize at the Hear Foundation is in, within the communities, there are so many different experts who are capable of serving community in a very productive way.

Uh, right now, we, um, we, we have a grant making going on, and we have about 76 different applications from community leaders who are the experts in their spaces, right?

Violence, prevention, mental health, you know, mentoring, and, uh, to provide them with the resources that they need to go out and serve community is very important.

You know, a lot of times these are people who are, you know, uh, like football coaches and basketball coaches, um, who are, and parents who are volunteering their time to make communities safe, right?

So what happens when we are intentional about making a, uh, investment into them, but while simultaneously building a productive relationship between them and, and police, right?

And, and so we believe that everyone has a role to play in regards to public safety.

And, you know, without these types of, in investments, you know, uh, communities like historically, we, we've had an adversarial relationship with, with law enforcement, right?

And so leveraging the platform of the Hear Foundation to invest in local leaders to, you know, be intentional about building those authentic relationships between police and community is very important.

Yeah.

And our board is very dynamic, you know, and, you know, we're able to facilitate relationship building.

You know, we, we have people on the board who have had adversarial relationships at some point, but we're able to bring them individuals together to have real conversations.

And, um, those conversations are al always in with some type of solution.

What are we going to do next?

Heffner: Let, let me ask you in the few minutes we have left, um, first I, to, to your points, what happened in the high-profile instances in Minneapolis and Twin Cities and most recently in Memphis is demonstrates that this can happen at any point to any one of any skin color as the, you know, perpetrator, uh, or the victim.

I mean, that, that seems to be, you know, the incentives or, or, or the, the, the wrongdoing pushing towards, um, the incentives, pushing towards that.

Um, you know, that can happen at any point, at any, at any time, um, irrespective of race and zip code and all those things.

And what I, what I want to ask you both to close is this question of one of what tends to be the most overlooked aspect of the criminal justice system, which is parole and probation, and the fact that more people are on p parole or probation that are actually incarcerated in prison or jail.

And I want to just ask you both to close, if in Pittsburgh, this is also true, and that the parole, probation, poverty pipeline, the vicious cycle that, uh, reincarcerates people, um, is really one of the, the highest priorities to deal with this problem, um, which is, uh, repairing, a parole or probation system, um, that, that has, um, you know, seems to reengage people in the system, uh, as opposed to help rehabilitate them.

Uh, starting with you chief and then Leon.

Schubert: Yeah, real, real quick.

Uh, as far as with, uh, even with Memphis and things like that, um, those are people that should not be cops.

That's not who we are.

That's not how we act.

Uh, I would say don't judge a group, uh, based on the actions of things, but we have to be accountable within police agencies to ensure those people don't get on the job.

Uh, for the other thing, um, for violence, people that continue to commit violence, especially with firearms, um, I think they, they need to be held accountable and put in jail.

But I think there's a lot of people out there who I think rehabilitation will help and other, uh, avenues to get them the help that they need to keep them so they don't re-offend.

Um, but if you have a vibrant community where people have an opportunity to do different things, um, then you could cut down on, you know, people turning to something that may, uh, lead to an arrest or, or something like that.

Heffner: But in all of your years in the department chief, did you feel as though there was that pipeline of here's someone who's re-offending, who was on parole or probation?

I mean, did it seem like it was that cyclical or were, were the offenders, um, new and not like previously in the system?

Schubert: No, I can say, I mean, there's, yeah, there a mix mixture of both, but yeah, there's, there's ones that, um, they just in and out of the system, um, committing some level of, of, of violence or carrying firearms.

Um, so you have to look at each, each incident as it is.

Um, but for the amount of people who end up spending time in jail, people spend time in jail for, um, months on a, on a retail theft case in the past, um, because they committed so many offenses that automatically they were charged with a felony.

Um, I mean, I didn't always think that was fair, right?

Um, but, you know, so I think you got to look at things case by case on it, but I think we got to do first everything we can, um, to keep people from getting into that position, uh, as a community.

Uh, and two, then looking at each one, this, you know, the punishment should, you know, does it have to be excessive?

Um, you know, when, when it, when it doesn't, when there's other opportunities to, to help.

Heffner: Leon Ford and Chief Scott Schubert, co-founders of the Hear Foundation, I commend you both, admire you both greatly for the work you've done and are doing now.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Ford: Thank you.

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