JIM: COMING UP ON THE LATEST "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT," A NEW PAUL INTO DEBATES AND THE GOVERNOR'S RACE.

WE WILL HAVE THE NUMBERS AND THE ANALYSIS.

THE GOVERNOR SAYS THE STATE WILL APPEAL A FEDERAL JUDGE'S DECISION THAT THE TRUFFLES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR OVER 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'M PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS GREAT PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

[CLOSED CAPTIONING HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY CARDI'S FURNITURE AND MATTRESSES] JIM: JOINING US ON A PANEL, KEN BLOCK, FOUNDER OF WATCHDOG RI ATTORNEY AND FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE NICK GORHAM, AND RETIRED POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR MAUREEN MOAKLEY.

I'M JIM HUMMEL.

WE APPRECIATE YOU SPENDING PART OF YOUR WEEKEND WITH US.

WITH JUST OVER THREE WEEKS TO GO TO ELECTION DAY, ASHLEY KAYLA'S IS TRYING TO NARROW A GAP THAT TWO RECENT POLLS SHOW IS SUBSTANTIAL IN HER BID TO UNSEAT GOVERNOR MCKEE.

IT COMES AS NO SURPRISE THAT KALUS STEPPED UP HER ENERGY AND CRITICISM OF INCUMBENT INTO DEBATES.

SHE HAS SHOWN AT LEAST A 10- POINT CAP.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW ACCURATE THE POLLS ARE, BUT AT LEAST THEY ARE CONSISTENT.

AS A I SHE IS GETTING MORE CRITICAL.

MAUREEN: I THINK SHE PERFORMS VERY WELL.

SHE WAS CRITICAL, SHE WAS ENERGETIC.

IN THE FIRST DEBATE, I DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS MUCH SUBSTANCE.

THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

BUT IN THE SECOND DEBATE, AS FAR AS SHE WAS CONCERNED, WHAT I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING WAS OFTENTIMES WHAT THEY DO, THEY HAVE AN IDEA.

ONE TIME SHE SAID "THE FIRST THING I'M GOING TO DO IS GET RID OF THE LINE ITEM, DEBBIE LINE ITEM VETO."

IT'S LIKE, WELL, YEAH, BUT IT SUGGEST YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON.

BUT IN THE SECOND DEBATE I THOUGHT SHE SPOKE VERY WELL ON EDUCATION.

BECAUSE WHAT SHE DID WAS SHE TICKED OFF THE HIGH POINTS OF THE REPORT WHICH WERE SUBSTANTIAL AND WELL THOUGHT OUT.

AND SO I THOUGHT THAT GAVE HER SOME LEVERAGE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK THE KEY IS -- MCKEE IS NOT A GREAT DEBATER.

IN THE FIRST DEBATE I THOUGHT HE WAS OK.

BUT HE DEFINITELY STEPPED UP ON THE SECOND DEBATE.

HE WAS MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE.

HE WAS MUCH MORE FLUENT.

HE WAS MUCH CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT HE SAID.

THE OTHER THING WE NOTED, WHEN HE DIDN'T LIKE THE QUESTION, HE GOT HIS POINTS.

JIM: NICK/ NICK: I AGREE WITH MAUREEN ON THE EDUCATION ISSUE.

ASHLEY KALUS HAS ARTICULATE OF THE PROBLEM PRETTY WELL AND IN A WAY THAT RESONATES WITH PEOPLE IN THE METROPOLITAN AREAS.

SHE ESSENTIALLY MAKES THE CASE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE'S KIDS ARE CAPTIVE IN A BROKEN EDUCATION SYSTEM.

THAT IS TRUE.

I THINK THAT IS THE KIND OF NEW OUTLOOK THAT PEOPLE IN THE CRITICAL METROPOLITAN AREAS THAT ASHLEY KALUS HAS TO SURVIVE IN -- IF YOU CAN RESONATE WELL WITH THOSE FOLKS, YOU ARE GOING TO DO A LOT BETTER IN THE ELECTION.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT KIND OF REACTION SHE GETS TO THEM.

I THINK IT IS A GOOD POINT TO MAKE AND I AGREE WITH MAUREEN.

SHE STEPPED IT UP.

KEN: I WATCH THE FIRST DEBATE, AND I COULDN'T LISTEN TO THE SECOND DEBATE AFTER LISTENING TO THE FIRST DEBATE.

JIM: WHY IS THAT?

KEN: IT WAS HORRIBLE.

IT WAS ALL ATTACK, VERY LITTLE SUBSTANCE.

I AGREE THAT IN GENERAL KALUS CAME ACROSS BETTER THAN MCKEE DOES.

MCKEE WASN'T VERY GOOD THAT NIGHT AT ALL.

BODY POSTURE, LANGUAGE, THE WHOLE THING WAS REALLY AWFUL IT FELT LIKE HE WOULD'VE PREFERRED NOT TO HAVE BEEN THERE AT ALL.

I THINK EDUCATION IS THE KEY ISSUE FOR US TO A LARGE EXTENT.

IT HAS BEEN A FESTERING, BLAZING PROBLEM FOR DECADES.

NO ONE HAS ADJUSTED WELL.

MCKEE CLAIMS TO BE EDUCATIONAL GOVERNOR, AND YET HE ABANDONED PROVIDENCE SCHOOL KIDS WHILE THE STATE STILL CONTROLS THE REINS OF EDUCATION THERE.

WHEN THE CONTRACT WAS BEING NEGOTIATED, IT COULD HAVE BEEN RADICALLY CHANGED, AND IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN, GIVEN HOW TERRIBLE THE RESULTS ARE THERE.

HE ABDICATED HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO THE PARENTS AND CHILDREN OF THE DISTRICT, THAT TROUBLED THE DISTRICT.

JIM: DO YOU CONSIDER A TRANSFORMATIONAL?

KEN: ABSOLUTE -- HE GOT THE SUPPORT OF THE TEACHERS UNION AS A RESULT, I SUSPECT, OF NOT REALLY DOING ANYTHING.

IT'S POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT, BUT THE COST WAS TREMENDOUS IN TERMS OF THE ROOM FUTURES OF SO MANY KIDS.

MAUREEN: YOU KNOW WHAT WAS INTERESTING, I WANTED TO POINT THIS OUT -- ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THE TEACHERS UNIONS ARE REALLY STRONG.

TO SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT IS QUITE ANOTHER THING.

THAT IS WHY I THOUGHT THE REPORT WAS REALLY EXCELLENT, BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

HE LEFT THE TEACHERS CONTRACTS ALONE, BUT HE DID TALK ABOUT GIVING MORE MONEY TO -- GIVING MORE MONEY TO NEW TEACHERS, MORE SUPPORT, PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO PARTICULARLY ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE.

WE HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM THERE.

WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE REPORT WAS THAT IT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT YOU COULD DO NOW.

WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

I THINK -- IN THE BEGINNING IT SAID DON'T JUST SAY YOU ARE FOR EDUCATION.

DO SOMETHING.

THEY DID LAY OUT A WHOLE SERIES OF OPTIONS THAT ARE POSSIBLE, AND I THINK THAT WAS EXCELLENT.

JIM: TO YOUR POINT, YOU HEAR HER SAY -- I KNOW THIS IS THE LESSONS EVERY POLITICIAN TAKES, I'M GOING TO DO THIS, I'M GOING TO DO THAT, PARTICULARLY IF YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN DEALING WITH THE DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE.

NOW, SHE IS NOT GOING TO SAY "I HAVE NO POWER AS THE GOVERNOR," BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR I WOULD BE ABLE TO WORK WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF THE GENERAL IS SIMPLY TO DO THIS.

EVERYTHING YOU SAY, IF YOU'RE REALLY FOLLOWING POLITICS, THAT IS KIND OF A HOLLOW PROMISE UNLESS YOU HAVE THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP ON BOARD.

NICK: YEAH, BUT I THINK PEOPLE -- A LOT OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS HAVE BEEN ELECTED IN THIS STATE.

IT HAS BEEN A WHILE, BUT MAYBE IT IS TIME TO TRY IT AGAIN.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT THAT A LOT.

SHE MADE -- I THOUGHT ASHLEY KALUS MADE SOME GREAT POINTS ABOUT EDUCATION.

SHE DID INSIST THAT TEACHES SHOULD BE PAID MORE, AND I AGREE WITH HER.

MY WIFE IS A TEACHER.

FULL DISCLOSURE.

BUT I TOOK THE SAME POSITION BACK IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHEN MY WIFE WASN'T TEACHING.

WE NEED TO GET THE BEST PEOPLE WE CAN TO TEACH.

IT IS A HARD JOB AND YOU NEED GOOD PEOPLE.

DAN MCKEE'S ONLY CONTRIBUTION THAT HE CAN REALLY TALK ABOUT, AND HE TALKS ABOUT IT A LOT, IS HE INTRODUCED TO CHARTER SCHOOLS.

FOR THE LESSER KID IS IN A CHARTER SCHOOL, AND NOT A LOT OF--BUT UNLESS YOUR KID IS IN A CHARTER SCHOOL, NOT A LOT OF KIDS ARE IN THEM, YOU ARE CAPTIVE.

THAT WAS A FANTASTIC POINT BY ASHLEY KALUS.

IF YOU LOOK AT MCKEE, HE BROUGHT NOTHING NEW TO THE TABLE ON EDUCATION.

HE REALLY DIDN'T.

MAUREEN: BUT THE THING IS, HOW DO YOU DO SCHOOL CHOICE?

WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

IT'S LIKE, I'M FOR SCHOOL CHOICE, I DON'T WANT PEOPLE CAPTIVE.

SO WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT ANYMORE?

JIM: ON THE THURSDAY NIGHT DEBATE, HE TRIED TO PIN HER DOWN ON THAT.

MAUREEN: THERE ARE TWO LINES.

I CAN SAY THAT.

BUT THE FACT IS, CAN I DO IT?

KEN: IT'S A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

I DON'T THINK I DEBATE IS THE PROPER FORUM WHERE YOU FLESH IT OUT ENTIRELY.

THINK IT IS REFRESHING FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR THAT THERE IS ONE CANDIDATE WHO SAYS WE HAVE GOT TO BREAK US UP, WE HAVE GOT TO STOP HOLDING PEOPLE CAPTIVE, KIDS CAPTIVE IN PARTICULAR SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

WE NEED MORE FLUIDITY IN THE SYSTEM, MORE FREEDOM.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR.

I REALIZE SHE WOULD HAVE TO WORK WITH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, BUT JUST THE FACT THAT THERE IS SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO DO IT IS A MASSIVE MOVE FORWARD.

NOBODY ELSE HAS EVEN TALKED ABOUT IT.

NOBODY!

JIM: DOUBLE-DIGIT SHE'S BEHIND.

SHE WOULD ARGUE THAT NO ONE KNEW ME SIX MONTH AGO AND THAT IS TRUE.

BUT CAN SHE NARROW THAT GAP IN THE NEXT SIX WEEKS?

NICK: FOR ME, I BELIEVE THE PROBLEM SHE FACES IS THE PROBLEM EVERY REPUBLICAN HAS FACED IN THE LAST TWO DECADES.

THE CLAD FOR A STRAIGHT UP UP UP--THE CEILING FOR STRATA FOR A PUBLICAN SUPPORT IS 38%.

BENEFIT FLANDERS GOT.

FUNG IN HIS STATEWIDE RACES HAS NEVER BROKEN THROUGH 40%.

THE CHALLENGE IS NOT SO MUCH APPEALING TO YOUR BASE OF CONSERVATIVE VOTERS, BUT HOW DO YOU GET THE EXTRA 13%.

WAS IT MONDAY NIGHT OR TUESDAY NIGHT'S DEBATE OF THIS WEEK, NEITHER OF THE CANDIDATES GAVE ANYBODY WHO WAS UNDECIDED A REASON TO VOTE FOR THOSE CANDIDATES WILL THE FINAL MESSAGING HERE NEEDS TO BE TWEAKED, AND YOU HAVE GOT TO FIGURE OUT WHO HAS NOT MADE UP THEIR MINDS YET, AND WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THE UNDECIDEDS TO TAKE YOU ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

MAUREEN: CAN I JUST ADD TO THAT, I WAS TALKING TO SOME FOLKS FROM POLITICAL SCIENCE AND THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT DOING RESEARCH.

HOW THE INDEPENDENT VOTE HAS MOVED.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS REALLY REMARKABLE.

JIM: IN WHAT WAY?

MAUREEN: IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S FLUID.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT FUNG, BUT HE HAS PICKED UP A AMONG INDEPENDENT VOTERS--PICKED UP A AMONG INDEPENDENT VOTERS.

I THINK THE INTERESTING THING HERE IS THAT THE INDEPENDENT VOTERS USUALLY LEAN DEMOCRATIC, LEAN REPUBLICAN.

BUT THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF FLUIDITY IN THAT.

IF A CANDIDATE CAN CAPTURE THAT, WHICH FUNG HAS DONE, IT BODES WELL.

KEN: I'M SMILING BECAUSE I'VE BEEN WAITING ON THIS DAY WHERE WE AGREE ON SO MUCH, MAUREEN.

[LAUGHTER] MAUREEN:, WAIT A MINUTE IT'S EARLY IN THE PROGRAM.

JIM: WE STILL HAVE A WAY TO GO.

ONE THING BEFORE WE MOVE ON -- THE GOVERNOR MADE A LITTLE BIT OF NEWS ON TUESDAY NIGHT.

HE WAS ASKED ABOUT TRUCK TOLLS.

HE SAID ABSOLUTELY WE ARE GOING FORWARD.

START WITH THE ATTORNEY.

I'M NO ATTORNEY, BUT I DON'T SEE WHAT THE LEGAL PATH IS TO BE ABLE TO OVERTURN THE JUDGE'S RULING.

KEN: I THINK IT IS A FOOLS ERRANT TO TAKE IT UP.

I READ THE JUDGES DECISION.

I THINK IT WAS PRETTY EMPHATIC.

HE HAD THE LOWER RIGHT.

THEY ARE TREATING OUT-OF-STATE TRUCKS DIFFERENT FROM IN-STATE TRUCKS.

JIM: IT'S CALLED INTERSTATE 95. , THEY'VE SPENT $8 MILLION WITH ONE LAW FIRM ON IT.

THEY WILL SPEND A LOT MORE.

IT IS A FOOLS ERRAND.

IT WASN'T POPULAR WITH ANYONE IN THE STATE.

EVERYBODY KNEW IT WAS UNFAIR.

THE LOCAL TRUCK OWNERS THOUGHT IT WAS UNFAIR THAT THEY GOT AN EXCEPTION WHICH IS WHAT BROUGHT THE WHOLE THING DOWN.

JIM: JUST THAT HER THE GOVERNOR OF THE POLLS -- HURT THE GOVERNOR AT THE POLLS OR NOT?

KEN: THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS TO THINK ABOUT.

VOTERS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM ARE AGAINST THE IDEA OF ENHANCED TOLLING THAT MAY GOBBLE UP CARS AND OTHER TYPES OF THINGS.

THAT WOULD BE A REAL RISK IF THAT POPS UP IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS.

I DO THINK THAT, FRAMED THE RIGHT WAY, WASTING MONEY ON AN APPEAL WOULD BE AN EFFECTIVE ATTACK ON THE GOVERNOR.

MAUREEN: ONE OF THE THINGS REPUBLICAN KEEP SAYING IS WE ARE GOING TO DO CARS.

THERE IS NO REASON THEY ARE GOING TO DO CARS.

I TAKE THEM AT THEIR WORD ON THAT.

I AGREE THERE, THAT IT IS NOT ABOUT CARS.

NOTE, BUT THE REPUBLICAN -- SHE KEPT SAYING WE ARE GOING TO DO CARS.

JIM: SHE IS LOOKING AT YOU, BUD.

YOU ARE THE ONLY REPUBLICAN.

WELL, YOU KIND OF.

DEPENDS ON THE DAY.

[LAUGHTER] MAUREEN: I'M AMBIVALENT ABOUT IT.

BUT SINCE THEY'VE GOTTEN THIS FAR, THEY OUGHT TO TRY.

THEY MAY BE ABLE TO TWEAK AND THE RESOLUTION ABOUT IN-STATE, OUT-STATE TRUCKS.

JIM: PATRICIA MORGAN DID A LOT OF GROUNDWORK WHEN THEY PASSED IT ALL THOSE YEARS AGO -- IT IS THE LAST 10%.

WE GET A LOT OF MONEY TO BEGIN WITH AND WE HAVE HAD A LOT NOW.

IT IS THE LAST 10% AND A $13 BILLION BUDGET.

CAN'T YOU FIND THAT SOMEWHERE?

KEN: RIGHT -- JIM: AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO IF THEY ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL.

KEN: EVERY DAY THE GANTRIES ARE UP THERE AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START WONDERING.

THEY WILL KEEP WONDERING, GEE, WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WITH THESE THINGS.

THEY REALLY GOING TO COME DOWN?

ISSUE IS IN GRANBY SETTLED UNTIL THEY ARE TAKEN DOWN.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SUSPICIOUS THAT THEY WILL HAVE THEIR PICTURE TAKEN AND RECEIVE A BILL IN THE MILK FOR DRIVING THEIR CAR DOWN ROUTE 95.

--IN THE MAIL FOR DRIVING A CAR DOWN ROUTE 95.

MAUREEN: REALLY?

>> SURE.

THEY'RE SITTING THERE DOING NOTHING.

IT IS A SPECTACLE FOR THEM JUST TO BE SITTING THERE DOING NOTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

BUT THEN TO JUST GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DEBT THAT IT IS NEVER GOING TO GET USED FOR ANYTHING ELSE -- KEN: WE HAVE SEEN BROKEN PROMISES BY POLITICIANS -- NICK: REALLY?

KEN: STILL PAYING A SALES TAX.

WE WERE PROMISED THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE A LONG-TERM THING.

I THINK GENERALLY SPEAKING PEOPLE I JUSTIFIED IN BEING VERY WARY OF THESE TOLL GANTRIES.

JIM: KEN, LET ME STAY WITH YOU.

ALLAN FUNG IN BOTH POLLS SHOWS A WIDER MARGIN.

HE LOOKS IN GOOD SHAPE.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHETHER THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO COME HOME.

ALWAYS A CHALLENGE FOR A REPUBLICAN.

BUT RIGHT NOW YOU WOULD RATHER BE ALLAN FUNG.

KEN: FOR SURE.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE PERCENTAGE OF UNDECIDED VOTERS, STILL PRETTY HIGH.

I THINK THERE IS MOVEMENT -- JIM: LESS THAN THE GOVERN OR'S.

KEN: YOU WOULD THINK THAT THIS LATE IN THE GAME MOST PEOPLE WOULD'VE FIGURED IT OUT.

THE MAGAZINER CAMPAIGN MYSTIFIES ME A LITTLE BIT.

HE HAS BEEN QUIET AND SINGLE-TONE IN TERMS OF THE MESSAGE.

I THINK THAT WAS NOT ADVISABLE GIVEN THE WAY THINGS LOOK RIGHT NOW.

MAUREEN: I AGREE.

FOR THE DEMOCRATS GENERALLY AND FUNG IN PARTICULAR, IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE ABORTION ISSUE, 14% OF THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE THINK IT IS A CRITICAL ISSUE.

I THINK IT IS A CRACKLE ISSUE.

BUT IT WAS A ONE-NO KIND OF THING.

CONSTANT CONSTANT CONSTANT.

HE DIDN'T DO ENOUGH TO TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS HE COULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT.

THE OTHER THING I THINK THEY MESSED UP ON HIS HE HAD ATTACKS ON ALLAN FUNG, ATTACKS ON SOCIAL SECURITY AND SO FORTH.

BUT HE DIDN'T REALLY COME UP WITH -- LIKE HE COULD SAY SOCIAL SECURITY IS GOING UP.

YOU ARE GOING TO GET THE BEST AS I WANT TO CONTINUE THESE POLICIES, 8% INCREASE.

THAT WAS UNFORTUNATE IN TERMS -- CONVERSELY, I THINK FUNG'S ADS WERE PRETTY EFFECTIVE IN THE SENSE THAT HE DIDN'T NATIONALIZE IT AT ALL.

JIM: HE DOESN'T WANT TO NATIONALIZE IT.

MAUREEN: OF COURSE.

NICE GUY, PUTTING HIS SHOES ON, THAT KIND OF THING.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING I THOUGHT WAS EFFECTIVE, HOKEY, BUT STILL, THE AD THEY DID FOR MAGAZINER WHERE HE WAS THIS PRIVILEGED PERSON AND THEY ARE LAUGHING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

WHICH I THINK WAS UNFAIR, THE WAY THEY COUCHED IT.

BUT IT WAS FOLLOWED BY FUNG AND HART HAD SAYING, OK, WE ARE GOING TO GET TO WORK.

I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE.

NICK: THE ANSWER IS LOOK AT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY.

VIOLENT CRIME AND LAWLESSNESS IS EVERYWHERE.

INFLATION AND HIGH GAS PRICES.

JUST ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

THIS PRESIDENT IS PROBABLY THE LEAST POPULAR PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, AS FAR AS -- JIM: WOULD JIMMY CARTER ARGUE?

NICK: JIMMY CARTER -- OK, WELL, THE DISLIKE OF BIDEN IS MORE ENTRENCHED, I WOULD SAY.

PEOPLE ARE REALLY MAD.

THEY REALLY MAD ABOUT THE PRESIDENT, AND IT IS JUST NO WONDER THAT SETH MAGAZINER IS LOSING TO ALLAN FUNG.

ALLAN FUNG IS A NICE GUY AND MAKES A NICE APPEARANCE, BUT SO DOES SETH MAGAZINER.

HE IS A VERY GOOD SPEAKER.

THERE MUST BE AN.

ANSWERFOR WHY USE BEHIND I THINK IT IS THE NATIONAL SITUATION--THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER FOR WHY HE IS BEHIND.

I THINK IT IS THE NATIONAL SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT MANY INDEPENDENTS, I AGREED TO MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, THEY ARE GOING TO FUNG.

JIM: WE HAVE A DEBATE ON TUESDAY.

THE CHANNEL 12 DEBATE.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN THEM TOGETHER.

YOU REMEMBER ALLAN FUNG DURING HIS RUNS FOR GOVERNOR WAS A LITTLE BIT -- DIDN'T WANT TO DO A LOT OF MEDIA.

NOW THEY GOT TO SIT AND SHARE IN FACE TED WEICK -- TED WHITE.

[LAUGHTER] TIM AND TED.

IT WILL BE LIKE, WHATEVER, BRAD PITT AND ANGELINA JOLIE.

SAVE THAT FOR EXTRA.

IF YOU ARE SETH MAGAZINER, WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO AT THE DEBATE?

MAUREEN: I UNDERSTAND HE IS NOT ADDRESSING BECAUSE THE ISSUES WITH INFLATION, BUT HE HAS GOT TO BE MORE POSITIVE ABOUT WHAT HE CAN DO, AND HE CAN TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE HAS TO LOOK TO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE GONE ON, EVEN NATIONALLY, AND TRY TO COUNTER.

TALK ABOUT WHAT HE HAS DONE AND WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

BUT HE HAS TO HAVE A MORE POSITIVE MESSAGE.

HE IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO JUST ATTACK FUNG.

KEN: I BELIEVE STRONGLY YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE CASE FOR WHY PEOPLE SHOULD VOTE FOR YOU AS OPPOSED TO THE OTHER --NOT THE OTHER PERSON.

WE ARE NOT SEEING THAT IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE AND WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT SEEING THAT IN THE CD2 RACE.

JIM: I GET THREE RELEASES A DAY NOW FROM HIS SPOKESPERSON SAYING -- IT IS JUST ALL FUNG, MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, MATT GAETZ.

IT IS LIKE THEY ARE ALL IN ONE BOX.

I THINK IT RINGS HOLLOW AFTER A WHILE.

NICK: I THINK HE IS BOX BY THE NATIONAL MOOD.

YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK IS JUST PLAIN SENILE.

MAUREEN: OH, PLEASE F.R NICK: WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT.

JIM: WHAT IS YOUR FEELING, YES TO SHOW MORE -- KEN: IF I WAS ADVISING MAGAZINER I WOULD TELL HIM YOU NEED TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO AND GIVE THEM REASONS TO VOTE FOR YOU.

THERE IS NOT BEEN ANY DISCUSSION OF HIS RECORD AS TREASURER.

MAUREEN: THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

KEN: BOTH FUNG AND MAGAZINER HAVE SERVED PUBLIC FOR YEARS AND THEY HAVE RECORDS THAT ARE EASILY REVIEWABLE.

THERE IS NO DISCUSSION IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

FUNG HAS MADE A POLITICAL CAREER IN TERMS OF RUNNING OF NOT BEING SPECIFIC OF WHAT HE WILL DO AND NOT DO.

MAGAZINER SHOULD SEIZE ON THAT AND BE SPECIFIC AND GIVE THE VOTERS SOME THINGS TO BE POSITIVE ABOUT IS OPPOSED TO BEING FEARFUL ABOUT.

MAUREEN: MOREOVER, RIVERA, SHE SENT OUT IN EMAIL OR SOMETHING AND SHE SAID THERE WAS A WAY TO BEAT FUNG.

YES NOT GOTTEN INTO CASH MANY PEOPLE ARGUE HE WAS NOT THAT SUCCESSFUL IN GRAND--MANY PEOPLE ARGUE HE WAS NOT THAT SUCCESSFUL IN CRANSTON.

BUT JUST TO SCARE TACTICS ARE NOT GOING TO WORK.

NICK: ONE THING ALLAN FUNG DID THAT MAY BE A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT IS HE PERFORMED THE PENSION SYSTEM IN CRANSTON AND BROUGHT IT FROM THE BRINK.

HE HAD TO TAKE THE CASE ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT.

IT WAS ONE CASE WORTH TAKING TO THE SUPREME COURT.

HE WON AT TRIAL WITH JUDGE CARTER AND HE TOOK IT AT THE SUPREME COURT AND IT WAS AFFIRMED -- THE UNION TOOK INTO THIS UP IN COURT.

POINT IS HE HAS DONE SOME THINGS THAT NO POLITICIANS OR ELECTED OFFICIALS AND RHODE ISLAND HAVE SUCCEEDED AT DOING.

HE FIXED MANY OF THE PENSIONS IN CRANSTON WHEN HE WAS MAYOR.

JIM: UT UP THE NEXT TOPIC -- YOU EED UP THE NEXT TOPIC.

I SEGUED THERE.--NICE SEGUE THERE.

IT'S A GREAT ISSUE ABOUT THE MARKETS NOT DOING WELL AND ALSO MUNICIPALITIES BORROWING WITH A HIGH INTEREST RATES.

KEN: LET'S START WITH THE EASY TOPIC, THE BORROWING.

WE HAVE A LOT OF COMMUNITIES AND THE STATE ALSO BORROWS A LOT OF MONEY.

WARWICK IS CONSIDERING A 400 MILLION DOLLARS SCHOOL PROJECT AND THEY ARE GOING AFTER BORROW ALMOST ALL OF THAT MONEY UP FRONT TO MAKE THE PROJECT HAPPEN.

THAT IS GOING TO BE ON THE BALLOT.

WHEN ALL OF THESE UPCOMING BALLOT QUESTIONS FOR BONDING CAME UP, WE HAD A VERY DIFFERENT INTEREST RATE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE DO NOW.

THE COST OF BORROWING IS UP TREMENDOUSLY.

FOR A BIG PROJECT LIKE WARWICK IS CONSIDERING, THE IMPACT IS MANY TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OVER THE COURSE OF BORROWING.

I DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF THAT EXTRA COST HAS BEEN BAKED INTO THE CONVERSATIONS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW COMMUNITIES WOULD DO THAT.

PROVIDENCE'S PENSION OBLIGATION BOND WHERE THEY WANT TO BORROW HALF $1 BILLION TO DUMP IT INTO THE STOCK MARKET, ALL THESE CRAZY IDEAS AND ALL THIS BORROWING RELIES UPON BEING SUCCESSFUL OF LOW INTEREST RATES WIS.OM JIM: MONEY HAS BEEN CHEAP FOR SO LONG.

KEN: IT WILL HAVE A DOWNSTREAM BIG IMPACT ON THE BUDGETS OF MUNICIPALITIES CONSIDERING BORROWING.

THE BIGGER ISSUE -- AND SUFFICED IT HAS NOT SHOWN UP IN CD2 ---- I'M SURPRISED IT HASN'T SHOWN UP IN CD2 -- THE STATE PENSION SYSTEMS, TEACHERS PENSION, STATE EMPLOYEES PENSION, AND MUNICIPAL PENSION PLANS BY THE STATE, WERE ALL THE CODE TO BE IN CRISIS BY GOVERNOR RAIMONDO IN 2011.

THAT CRISIS ULTIMATELY CAUSED THE REFORM TO HAPPEN, WHERE THEY MADE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO THE SYSTEM.

NOW WHAT WE ARE SEEING -- AND THEY WERE FUNDED AT ABOUT 52% WHEN THE CRISIS CAME ABOUT.

LAST YEAR THEY WERE FUNDED AT 58% IN THE STOCK MARKET IS DOWN 20 TO 30% FROM WHERE IT WAS A YEAR AGO.

WE ARE PROBABLY FUNDED TO WHERE WE WERE IN CRISIS.

THAT BODES REALLY POORLY FOR TAXPAYERS IN PARTICULAR THAT I GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE AT THE STATE LEVEL AND MUNICIPALITIES WHO HAVE SEEN THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE STATE SYSTEM MORE THAN DOUBLE OVER THE DECADE THAT THE REFORM HAS BEEN IN PLACE ARE GOING TO BE IN REALLY BIG TROUBLE AS WE HAVE MORE AND MORE COSTS TO MAKE UP FOR SOME MAUREEN: I HAVE A QUESTION.

TALKING ABOUT THE PENSION LIABILITY IN PROVIDENCE, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

OBVIOUSLY THAT IS STRUCTURED ON THE FACT THAT IF THE MARKET GOES UP.

BUT IN ANY CASE, THE MARKET IS NOT GOING UP, THAT KIND OF THING, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

KEN: AS FAR AS THE PENSIONS IN PROVIDENCE?

MAUREEN: YEAH.

KEN: THE LIABILITY IS SO PHENOMENALLY GIGANTIC, WELL OVER A BILLION DOLLARS IN PROVIDENCE, IT IS AN INSURMOUNTABLE NUMBER.

THAT IS WHY THEY ARE GOING FOR A HAIL MARY PASS BY BORROWING HALF A BILLION -- JIM: DECLARE BANKRUPTCY?

KEN: I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S ANY OTHER WAY TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM.

JIM: QUICKLY ON THE ISSUE OF BORROWING AND THE PENSIONS.

NICK: I AGREE WITH KEN.

I THINK THE EASY ANSWER IS TO JUST POUR MORE MONEY AND.

BUT TO GET BACK TO WHAT ALLAN SUSPEND COLAS, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FASTEST WAY TO CATCH UP.

MOST OF THEM DID.

THOSE WHO DIDN'T WENT TO THE COURTS WITH A CASE I JUST DESCRIBED A FEW MOMENTS AGO.

THAT IS THE SOLUTION IN PROVIDENCE THAT THEY'VE NEVER EVEN -- WELL, THEY HAVE TRIED.

BUT STILL, I THINK YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO CAN ENGAGE THE UNION TO DO IT, BECAUSE I THINK KEN IS RIGHT.

EVENTUALLY THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS GOING TO BE -- I THINK IT IS TITLE IX OF THE BANKRUPTCY CODE.

THAT IS OF -- A POLITICAL EQUATION, OUR CAPITAL CITY, IT WOULD BE EMBARRASSING -- KEN: AND EVERYBODY LOSES.

MAUREEN: THE OTHER THING IS THE UNIONS KNOW THEY ARE GETTING FROM STRENGTH BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE STATE IS NOT GOING TO LET PROVIDENCE GO UNDER.

JIM: WE COULD DO ANOTHER HOUR ON THAT.

IT'S IMPORTANT TOPIC.

OUTREACHS AN--OUTRAGE AND /OR KUDOS.

NICK: PROTESTERS AND THE NATIONAL GALLERY IN LONDON WALKED IN AND DESTROYED VINCENT VAN GOGH'S "SUNFLOWERS" FORTRESS THAT WAS HANGING THERE TO PROTEST CLIMATE CHANGE.

I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS, BUT DURING WORLD WAR II, THERE WAS A HUGE EFFORT -- THEY MADE A MOVIE OUT OF IT -- TO SAVE ALL THE BEAUTIFUL WORKS OF ART FROM THE NAZIS.

AND NOW THE PEOPLE WHO WANT CLIMATE CHANGE ARE DESTROYING THEM.

WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING?

JIM: CAN OF SOUP.

KEN: MY OUTRAGE ARE INCUMBENT CANDIDATES WHO REFUSED TO DEBATE.

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR MENTOS AND NOTABLY, VERY DISAPPOINTING TO ME, ATTORNEY GENERAL NEURONAL REFUSING DEBATE.

I THINK IT IS OUTRAGEOUS AND IT IS WRONG.

INSTEAD OF PASSING LAWS TO COMPEL CANDIDATES TO GIVE THEIR TAX RETURNS, WE SHOULD PASS A LAW THAT COMPELS INCUMBENTS TO DEBATE.

JIM: AND THE MESSAGE TO THE VOTERS IS, TO ME, BRING IT ON.

WHAT WOULD YOU BE WORRIED ABOUT IN A DEBATES?

MAUREEN: SHOULD I GO?

I AM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT A TREND IN TERMS OF POLITICIANS AND CELEBRITY.

I UNDERSTAND WHEN ASH ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO WHEN YOU GET ELECTED FOR THE HOUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS YOU TURN YOURSELF IF YOU CAN INTO A BRAND, YOU TURN YOURSELF INTO A CELEBRITY.

OCASIO-CORTEZ IS A PERSON LIKE THAT, SHE GETS ON AND SHE DANCES AND DOES ALL OF THAT.

WE HAVE A COUPLE POLITICIANS WHO DO HANDSTANDS AND STUFF ON THE BEACH.

THE IDEA IS IF YOU BECOME A CELEBRITY OR A BRAND, IT IS GOOD ELECTORAL STRATEGY.

NOT SURE IT IS GREAT, BUT IT IS ELECTORAL STRATEGY.

MY CONCERN IS THIS IS CREEPING INTO THE SUPREME COURT.

FURTHERMORE, RUTH BADER GINSBURG WAS RIDDLED WITH CANCER, AND SHE HAD PICTURES OF HER DOING SIT UPS, PUSH-UPS.

THIS IS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, AND SHE STATED TOO LONG.

I'M CONCERNED THAT THE NEWEST JUSTEST, WHO I THINK IS SUPERB, BROWN JACKSON, JESTED A THINKING "VO--JUST DID A THINKING "VOGUE" TALKING ABOUT CLOTHING.

I THINK THE SUPREME COURT SHOULDN'T GO THERE.

JIM: IT IS LIKE ALITO TALKING TO PEOPLE IN ITALY.

HE QUITE UNDER YOUR JOB.

IF YOU CAN, JOIN US FOR AN EXTRA.

IF YOU CAN'T, WE'LL BID ADIEU TO MR. BLOCH, PROFESSOR MOAKLEY, COUNSELOR GORHAM.

WE WILL BE OVER THE CD2 DEBATE ON TUESDAY.

IF YOU CAN, JOIN US FOR THE EXTRA.

IF YOU CAN'T, COME BACK NEXT WEEK AS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" CONTINUES.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR OVER 30 YEARS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.