[CLOSED CAPTIONING HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY CARDI'S FURNITURE AND MATTRESSES] JIM: THIS WEEK ON "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT," CICILLINE IS RIGHT IN THE THICK OF IT.

>> THERE CANNOT BE UNITY WITHOUT COUNTABILITY.

>> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT ON ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'M PROUD TO SUPPORT THIS PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

>> JOIN US WITH THE ANALYSIS.

ARLENE VIOLET, PABLO RODRIGUEZ, AND FORMER STATE REP IS IN IT IF NICK GORHAM.

JIM: WELCOME TO "LIVELY," EVERYONE.

I'M JIM HUMMEL.

DONALD TRUMP'S SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL GOT UNDERWAY THIS WEEK.

FIRST, RHODE ISLAND REMAINS IN LIMBO AS GOVERNOR RAIMONDO REFUSES TO RESIGN UNTIL SHE IS CONFIRMED AS CONNOR SECRETARY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN -- AS COMMERCE SECRETARY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SHE SAYS SHE CONTINUES TO DO HER JOB "WITH GUSTO."

ARLENE, IT SEEMS A BIG PART OF THAT JOB IS GETTING UP ON STAGE EVERY THURSDAY TO ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS, AND BY EXTENSION, THE STATE OF EARL ISLAND -- THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND'S QUESTIONS.

ARLENE: FIRST OF ALL, AND POLITICS, ALWAYS EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED.

I THINK SHE'S GOING TO BE CONFIRMED, BUT SHE IS SMART IN NOT RESIGNING RIGHT NOW.

IT IS IRREVOCABLE IF SHE WERE TO RESIGN AS GOVERNOR, AND THEN OOPS, TED CRUZ AND COMPANY PREVAIL RELATIVE TO HER APPOINTMENT.

HAVING SAID THAT, SHE WAS COMING OUT OF THE STATEHOUSE.

THAT MEANS SHE WAS OVER THERE WORKING.

SO AGAIN, THERE -- AGAIN, THE RAP SHE IS TAKING FOR NOT BEING AVAILABLE IS TOTALLY OUT OF PROPORTION.

YOU WATCHED EVEN DR. ALEXANDER SCOTT DURING THE PRESS CONFERENCE LAST WEEK ABOUT HER PRESENCE, AND THE DOCTOR SAID SHE'S AN ABSOLUTE GENIUS, SHE'S PRESENT, SHE DOES WANT TO YIELD A BIT IN ORDER FOR DAN MCKEE TO GET A LITTLE BETTER KNOWN TO THE PUBLIC, ETC.

SO SHE IS IN A TOUGH PLACE.

I THINK SHE'S DOING THE BEST SHE CAN, AND ASKING HER TO STEP ASIDE I THINK IS FRANKLY RIDICULOUS.

JIM: I ALSO THINK, NICK, IF THIS WAS A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS ASH SENATE, -- PUBLIC AND SENATE AND YOU HAD PEOPLE -- REPUBLICAN SENATE AND YOU HAD PEOPLE BENDING TED CRUZ'S EARS, IT WOULD GO THROUGH NO QUESTION.

ARLENE: THERE'S ALWAYS A QUESTION.

EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED.

LIKE THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT, UNEXPECTED.

SHE'S GOVERNOR.

LET HER STEP ASIDE WHEN SHE GETS APPOINTED, IF SHE GETS APPOINTED.

JIM: NICK?

NICK: WELL, ISN'T THE REAL PROBLEM HERE THE GAG ORDER, WHICH I'M SURE IS NOT SELF IMPOSED BY THE GOVERNOR?

THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE GOVERNOR'S JOB INCLUDES, A BIG PART OF IT IS BEING OPEN, TALKING TO THE PRESS, COMMUNICATING WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS, ALL ONE MILLION OF THEM IN RHODE ISLAND, AND SHE HASN'T SINCE DECEMBER 22 UNTIL THESE REPORTERS BESEECHED HER OUTSIDE THE STATEHOUSE.

THAT IS JUST A TERRIBLE WAY TO RUN A STATE.

I AM SURE THAT THE GAG ORDER SHE HAS BEEN FOLLOWING HAS BEEN IMPOSED BY THE BIDEN ADMINSTRATION.

IF THEY ARE SO SURE SHE IS GOING TO BE CONFIRMED, WHY CAN'T SHE TALK TO THE BEAT -- WHY CAN'T SHE TALK TO THE PEOPLE OF RHODE ISLAND?

WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL WITH THAT?

SHE SHOULD BE MORE OPEN.

I UNDERSTAND SHE IS IN A TOUGH SPOT.

I AGREE WITH ARLENE.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHE COULD DO?

SAY, I AM GOING TO TALK TO THE PEOPLE OF RHODE ISLAND.

I AM GOING TO START COMMUNICATING.

EVERYBODY WOULD BE CHEERING HER.

JIM: YEAH, PABLO?

PABLO: I DON'T KNOW, JIM.

I AM GOING TO HAVE TO GET MYSELF A REPUBLICAN PARTY NUMBER SHIP CARD BECAUSE I AGREE WITH NICK.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: WAIT A MINUTE, LET'S GET THIS FOR PROSPERITY.

COMMON GROUND.

IT'S UNITY!

UNITY.

PABLO: BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

WHEN YOU ARE GOVERNOR, IT IS LIKE BEING PREGNANT.

YOU CANNOT BE A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT, AND YOU CANNOT BE A LITTLE BIT GOVERNOR.

IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC, IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR A SINGLE MESSAGE TO BE GOING OUT.

IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR IT TO BE ONE GOVERNOR AT A TIME.

EVEN THE DIRECTOR OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAYING I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH BOTH GOVERNORS, THAT DOESN'T INSPIRE CONFIDENCE.

YOU NEED SOMEBODY IN CHARGE, AND YOU NEED SOMEBODY THAT CAN SPEAK TO THE PRESS AND SPEAK TO THE PUBLIC AT ALL TIMES.

I THINK THE GAG RULE, LIKE NICK JUST SAID, HAS BEEN THE ISSUE.

IT IS NOT THE ISSUE OF NOT RESIGNING.

IT IS THE ISSUE OF BEING GOVERNOR, BUT NOT BEING ACCESSIBLE.

JIM: ARLENE, WHAT ABOUT THAT?

I THICK IF SHE WAS UP THERE ON THE STAGE, I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT WOULD SAY THAT WOULD JEOPARDIZE HER CONFIRMATION.

SHE'S DONE 125 OF THESE BRIEFINGS, AND SHE TOLD GENERAL 12 -- TOLD CHANNEL 12 THE OTHER DAY I AM GIVING THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR A CHANCE TO STEP FORWARD, BUT HE IS NOT RUNNING THOSE PRESS CONFERENCE IS BECAUSE HE IS NOT THE GOVERNOR, SO WHAT ABOUT THAT?

DO YOU THING SHE COULD TAKE A LITTLE MOREFORWARD PRESENCE AS LONG AS SHE IS NOT GOING TO RESIGN?

ARLENE: THERE'S NO PERFECT SCENARIO UNDER ANY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES INVOLVED.

ALEXANDER SCOTT DID A TERRIFIC BRIEFING LAST THURSDAY.

OBVIOUSLY, SHE IS STILL THE VOICE OF THE GOVERNMENT LOOK UP TO THE BRIEFING.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS ISSUE OF KEEP TO THE SCIENCE.

CERTAINLY THAT IS WHAT DR. ALEXANDER SCOTT IS DOING.

I THINK DAN MCKEE BURNED HIMSELF, QUITE HONESTLY, WHEN HE STARTED REARRANGING THE PRIORITIES OF DR. RODRIGUEZ IN THAT EXTRA APPEAL THAT THEY HAVE ON WHO SHULD GET THE SHOTS.

RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE, HE STARTED ACTING POLITICALLY, TRYING TO MAKE KISSY-KISSY WITH THE TEACHERS SAY AND WILL INOCULATE THEM FIRST.

WE WILL GET ALL OF THE POLITICIANS, INCLUDING THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, ETC.

SHE'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY HERE.

THERE'S OTHER CONSTITUENT MOVING ELEMENTS, ONE OF WHICH WAS THE MISTAKE DAN MCKEE MADE JUST COMING OUT OF THE GATE.

>> BUT SHE IS STILL THE GOVERNOR, AND THE GOVERNOR IS THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE.

WE CAN GO AROUND AND AROUND WITH THIS, BUT SHE IS THE GOVERNOR.

[INDISCERNIBLE] -- AS COMMERCE SECRETARY, AND SHE IS NOT TALKING TO THE PEOPLE OR THE PRESS.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT.

THE BIDEN ADMINSTRATION SHOULD JUST GIVE HER A LITTLE BIT OF LEEWAY, OR LIKE I SAID, THE GOVERNOR SHOULD JUST SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I AM GOING TO START TALKING TO THE PEOPLE.

ARLENE: PEOPLE DO DELEGATE TO THEIR ADMINISTRATION, AND I WISH -- I AM A REPUBLICAN, BASICALLY, BUT ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS CRITICIZING HER, WHERE WAS THEIR VOICE MONTHS AGO WHEN MR. TRUMP WAS INVENTING STOLEN ELECTIONS?

HE NEVER CAME OUT AND TALKED TO US ABOUT ANYTHING.

HE CAUSES AN INSURRECTION, AND NOW WE ARE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THE VACCINE BECAUSE HE WASN'T ON THE JOB THAN.

WHY DON'T WE FOCUS ON THAT?

NICK: BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE GOVERNOR.

THAT'S WHY.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: THAT'S CALLED A LITTLE WHAT ABOUT IS HIM -- A LITTLE WHAT-AB OUTISM.

LET ME ASK YOU BEFORE YOU MOVE ON FROM THE GOVERNOR, THE FLIPSIDE IS THERE'S A LOT OF GOING OUT THE DOOR APPOINTMENT.

JACK REVENS, THEY DUSTED HIM OFF TO TAKE THE PUC, AND THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXPIRE UNTIL MARCH 1, AND THEN THE APPOINTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PULLED BACK.

NICK, LET ME START WITH YOU.

I SEE ARLENE SHAKING HER HEAD.

NICK: SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE THE APPOINTMENT.

SHOULD HAVE LEFT IT FOR HER SUCCESSOR.

THERE WAS NOTHING URGENT ABOUT FILLING THE VACANCY ON THE PUC.

ARSHA GOLD HAS BEEN DOING THE JOB FOR A LONG TIME, AND I THINK IT WAS A HUGE MISTAKE.

I KNOW JACK REVENS.

NICE GUY.

BUT LET'S FACE IT, HE IS A CAREER POLITICIAN.

HE'S BEEN TO THE VERY TOP.

HE WAS SENATE MAJORITY LEADER.

HE RAN FOR HIGHER OFFICE A FEW TIMES.

IT IS PRETTY CLEAR IT IS A PURELY POLITICAL APPOINTMENT.

YOU KNOW, DOING THAT WHILE SHE CAN'T SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE, BAD MOVE.

BAD MOVE.

JIM: ARLENE?

ARLENE: I AGREE WITH NICK.

SHE STEPPED INTO POLITICAL HACK -ISM AGAIN, WHICH SHE HAS BEEN KNOWN TO DO.

ON THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, YOU NEED SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT IN ENERGY POLICY, BELIEVE ME.

I KNOW REVENS.

EXCELLENT GUY.

I JUST WISH SHE HADN'T PUT SOMEONE IN WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE NECESSARY SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND.

THE SAME FOR THE CRMC.

I HOPE WE GET TO TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER WITH THOSE APPOINTMENTS.

THAT WAS HUCKSTERISM AT ITS BEST.

THAT IS THE DOWNSIDE OF HER, NOT THAT SHE IS HANGING IN BY HER FINGERTIPS TO THE GOVERNOR'S ROLE.

JIM: PABLO?

PABLO: WHERE DO I SEND MY APPLICATION, AGAIN?

[LAUGHTER] IT REALLY MAKES NO SENSE TO DO THESE KINDS OF APPOINTMENTS AT THE LAST MINUTE.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE FOR HER TO SIT DOWN AND SAY, LISTEN, I NEED YOU TO DO THIS FO ME, PERIOD.

HE COULD HAVE SAID YES OR NO.

BUT NOW WHAT WE DO IS WE CREATE THIS APPEARANCE OF IMPROPRIETY, OF INSIDE GAMES THAT REALLY, WE DO NOT NEED MORE OF IN RHODE ISLAND.

PEOPLE ARE ALREADY CYNICAL ENOUGH.

THIS COUPLED WITH THE CRMC SITUATION, IT CREATES AN APPEARANCE OF INSIDE JOBS THAT WE DON'T NEED.

JIM: THE OTHER THING IS IT LOOKS LIKE A PENSION BOOST.

JACK REVENS SPENT YEARS IN THE LEGISLATURE AT A VERY SMALL SALARY.

NOW HE IS IN THERE AT $139,000.

ALL OF A SUDDEN GOES UP.

ARLENE, GO AHEAD -- ALL OF A SUDDEN, HIS PENSION GOES UP.

ARLENE, GO AHEAD.

ARLENE: YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT.

SHE'S WRONG DOING THAT, FOR SURE.

IT SPEAKS TO THE DARK SIDE OF HER GOVERNORSHIP, THAT SHE TRIES THIS STUNT ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR.

NICK: LET'S LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.

BY THE WAY, YOUR APPLICATION HAS BEEN EXCEPTED, PABLO.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: NO, HE WANTS TO BE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

NICK: OH, ALL RIGHT.

HOW CAN ALL OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN THAT WE SEEM TO BE CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT?

RHODE ISLAND, THE DEEPEST, BLUEST STATE IN THE COUNTRY.

IT IS NOT GOOD WHEN YOU HAVE ONE PARTY IN CONTROL.

ALL OF THE CONGRESSIONAL SEATS, BOTH OF THE SENATORIAL SEATS, ALL OF THE GENERAL OFFICES, MASSIVE MAJORITIES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THIS IS WHAT YOU GET.

I HOPE THE PEOPLE OF RHODE ISLAND REALIZE THAT.

WHEN YOU HAVE SUCH A LOPSIDED GOVERNMENT, YOU GET A LOPSIDED RESULT.

JIM: ONE OF THE BYPRODUCTS, I HAD DONE A STORY FOR LAST SUNDAY'S JOURNAL WHICH HAS HAD HUGE REVERBERATIONS NOW.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS GETTING INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS.

YOU TALKED ABOUT CRMC.

I THINK THERE WAS ENOUGH QUESTION ABOUT HOW THAT CAME ABOUT THAT THE SENATE LEADERSHIP , I THINK RIGHTLY SO, SAID MAYBE WANT TO TAKE A FURTHER LOOK AT THAT, AND JUST YESTERDAY, WE ARE TAPING ON THURSDAY MORNING, THEY PULLED THOSE NOMINATIONS BACK.

SO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE THAT FITS IN AND YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT PARTICULARLY CRMC.

ARLENE: CONGRATULATIONS ON THE GREAT STORY YOU DID, JIM HUMMEL.

ALSO, I THINK IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT PETER NAVARRO BECAME INVOLVED IN THIS.

THIS STORY DRIVES ME CRAZY, QUITE HONESTLY, BECAUSE IT PERSONIFIES WHAT NICK GORHAM WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT, AND THAT IS THE POLITICIZATION OF EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN RHODE ISLAND.

IN THAT ONE STORY, INCOMES OF FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE WILLIAMS TO MODERATE AND MEDIATE THIS PARTICULAR SETTLEMENT, AND YET HE SEES NOTHING WRONG IN DOING THAT WHEN A CASE IS PENDING BEFORE HIS FORMER COLLEAGUES IN THE RHODE ISLAND SUPREME COURT.

FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU ARE EVEN GOING TO HAVE MEDIATION, THERE SHOULDN'T BE WITH HIM BECAUSE OF THE UNDUE INFLUENCE.

MR. GOLDBERG IS A GOOD ATTORNEY, BUT HIS WIFE, SHE WOULD HAVE TO RECUSE HERSELF.

WHY CAN'T HUBBY GET ANOTHER JOB, AND WHY SHOULD WE AS TAXPAYERS HAVE TO PAY WHEN SHE HAS TO RECUSE HERSELF?

THAT IS THE ATTITUDE WE HAVE IN RHODE ISLAND THAT REGULATE -- THAT REALLY AGGRAVATES ME.

SO YES, YOUR STORY WAS FABULOUS.

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE SO AWASH IN CONFLICT THIS WEEK?

JIM: YEAH.

NICK, YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT?

NICK: SURE.

THE THING THAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE TOWN OF NEW SORUM AND THE COMMITTEE FOR THE GREAT SALT POND AND THE BLACK ISLAND CONSERVANCY WERE WHEN YOU ARE IN INTERVENOR, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HEARD.

THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A RED FLAG WHEN THEY SAID WE DON'T WANT TO MEDIATE.

THAT MEANS THAT THE MEDIATION IS NOT GOING TO WORK, AND OBVIOUSLY IT DID NOT.

IT DIDN'T WORK.

IT HAS NOT BROUGHT A MEDIATED RESULT THAT ALL OF THE PARTIES AND THE INTERVENORS ARE HAPPY WITH.

IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT BOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING COASTAL COMMUNITIES PARTICIPATE IN DECISION-MAKING, IT IS RIGHT IN THE CRMC STATUTE.

THE COASTAL COMMUNITIES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE REPRESENTED.

NO COMMUNITY IS MORE COASTAL THAN LONG ISLAND BECAUSE, MEMO HERE, IT IS SURROUNDED BY WATER.

[LAUGHTER] SO IT IS REALLY A BAD RESULT.

SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER EXECUTED .

THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A WAY TO RESOLVE THIS.

THIS IS NOT THE WAY.

PABLO: JIM, AS I WAS READING YOUR ARTICLE, I THOUGHT THAT YOU WERE WRONG.

WHEN I WAS READING ABOUT JUDGE WILLIAMS, THE FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, DOING A MEDIATION, I THOUGHT, AND I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I DON'T PLAY ONE ON TV, WHEN I HEAR THE WORD MEDIATION, I HEAR EVERY PARTY INVOLVED TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A SETTLEMENT.

AS I FINISHED THE ARTICLE AND READ, WAIT A SECOND, THEY EXCLUDED ONE IMPORTANT PART IN THE MEDIATION, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AGAINST THE PROPOSAL.

I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND FOR MY LIFE, HOW CAN YOU HAVE A MEDIATION THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AGAINST THE PROPOSAL?

IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

I FEEL BAD FOR JUDGE WILLIAMS BECAUSE HIS REPUTATION IS ON THE LINE WITH THIS SETTLEMENT.

JIM: THE ONE THING WE SHOULD NOTE BEFORE WE GO ON, LOOK, FRANK WILLIAMS PIONEERED THIS MEDIATION PROGRAM WHEN HE WAS AT THE SUPREME COURT FOR THE MANDATORY YOU HAVE TO GO IN SO THAT WE CAN SAVE THE COURT TIME AND EFFORT.

THIS WAS STRICTLY VOLUNTARY.

ARLENE, YOU KNOW THERE'S A BIT OF A MINISTRY OF APPEAL, WITHOUT GETTING TOO MUCH INTO THE WEEDS, IT IS VOLUNTARY.

SO THE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT ANY PART OF IT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE HIM BUT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO GET IN LITIGATION.

SO THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE, THAT IT WAS VOLUNTARY, NOT MANDATORY.

PABLO, YOU HAVE BEEN ON GOVERNOR RAIMONDO'S VACCINE BOARD.

YOU AND I HAD A SPIRITED DISCUSSION WHILE WE WERE WAITING FOR NICK AND ARLENE TO COME ON.

TELL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE, LOOK, WHAT IS GOING ON?

MY 86-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER CAN'T GET IT.

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING THAT IS ADDRESSING SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS GOING FORWARD?

PABLO: I THINK GOING FORWARD, AS MORE VACCINES BECOME AVAILABLE, AS WE MOVE INTO THE GENERAL POPULATION, THERE'S GOING TO BE LESS CRITICISM.

BUT WE HAVE TO BE REALLY HONEST WITH OURSELVES.

RHODE ISLAND IS ONLY GETTING 15,000 DOSES FOR FIRST AND SECOND DOSES.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION HAD PROMISED, A CERTAIN AMOUNT THAT WAS GOING TO BE COMING IN AT LATER DATES.

AFTER THE ELECTION, WE CAME TO KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO SUCH RESERVE.

WE HAVE 95,000 HEALTH-CARE WORKERS AND PEOPLE IN NURSING HOMES.

YOU HAVE 90,000 DIABETICS.

WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, 15,001ST RESPONDERS.

WE HAVE 87,000 PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 65.

THESE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT COULD USE THIS VACCINE.

TO THINK THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE INTO THE GENERAL POPULATION WITH ANY EXPEDIENCY IS NOT RIGHT.

LIKE ARLENE SAID ABOUT THE TEACHERS, I FEEL FOR THE TEACHERS.

I KNOW HOW THEY FEEL.

THIS JOB HAS BEEN THE HARDEST JOB I HAVE DONE AT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT.

BUT WE WERE GIVEN A CHARGE.

WE WERE GIVEN A MISSION TO PREVENT HOSPITALIZATIONS AND PREVENT DEATHS.

WHEN YOU FOLLOW THE DATA, WE KNOW WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OF ADVANCED AGE AND PEOPLE IN HIGH DENSITY COMMUNITIES.

SO WE HAVE TO DECIDE, WE HAVE TO BALANCE PEACE OF MIND FOR MOST OF THE POPULATION VERSUS REST IN PEACE.

JIM: ARLENE, GO AHEAD AND JUMP IN.

ARLENE: YOU NEED A CENTRAL REGISTRATION.

OBVIOUSLY WE CAN'T CONTROL THE VACCINES COMING IN.

IT SHOULD BE DONE PRO RATA BECAUSE RHODE ISLAND HAS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF ELDERLY THAN OTHER STATES, SO THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE FACTORS IN TERMS OF THE DISTRIBUTION.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, IT IS A POTPOURRI OUT THERE.

THE CITY IS DOING THIS, THAT TOWN IS DOING THAT.

CENTRAL REGISTRATION, DR. RODRIGUEZ.

CENTRAL REGISTRATION.

PABLO: WE JUST DON'T HAVE IT AT THIS POINT.

WE HAVE A CENTRAL REGISTRATION ONCE THE VACCINE IS ADMINISTERED.

THAT IS CREATING A RICH SET OF DATA.

BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO SET UP A CENTRAL REGISTRATION THAT WOULD ALSO BE COUPLED WITH DISTRIBUTION, AND I THINK THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

WE HAVE NOT INVESTED IN PUBLIC HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

WHEN I WAS A CHILD, YOU KNEW WHERE TO GO TO GET YOUR VACCINATIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE AS A UNIT IN EVERY TOWN THAT DID THAT.

WE HAVE LOST A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THIS PANDEMIC HAS GIVEN US THE PROOF THAT WE NEED TO INVEST MUCH MORE.

JIM: NICK?

NICK: RHODE ISLAND IS A LITTLE DISTINCT.

WE HAVE INVESTED IN PUBLIC HEALTH MORE THAN JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER STATE.

THAT IS WHY ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE ONCE TO COME HERE.

THAT IS WHY OUR STATE IS SO HEAVILY BURDENED THINGS THAT WE CAN'T PAY FOR.

HERE WE HAVE THE COVID ROLLOUT, AND WE CAN'T GET IT RIGHT.

WE ARE THE SMALLEST, MOST COMPACT POPULATION STATE IN THE COUNTRY, AND WE CAN'T GET THIS RIGHT.

EVEN WITH ALL OF THE MONEY WE HAVE INVESTED IN HEALTH CARE IN THIS STATE FOR DECADES, WE CAN'T GET THIS RIGHT.

THE REASON IS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM IN THIS STATE THAT PRODUCES A ROBUST FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

PABLO: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.

NICK: THAT IS ONE OF THE SYMPTOMS.

PABLO: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.

THIS HAS TO DO WITH A LIMITED SUPPLY OF VACCINE FOR A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT COULD USE IT, AND LIVES COULD BE SAVED.

WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPLY, YOU CANNOT PRIORITIZE EVERYBODY BECAUSE IF YOU PRIORITIZE EVERYBODY, YOU DON'T PRIORITIZE ANYBODY.

NICK: BUT WHY IS RHODE ISLAND LAGGING SO FAR BEHIND?

PABLO: WE ARE ONLY LAGGING BECAUSE WE CONTINUOUSLY LOOK AT THIS ISSUE AS IF IT WAS A RACE AND RANKING STATES BY THE PERCENTAGES.

THAT IS NOT THE WAY THAT YOU DETERMINE SUCCESS.

IN MEDICINE, WHAT DETERMINES SUCCESS ABOUT LIFE SAVED -- ABOUT LIVES SAVED AND HOSPITALIZATION PREVENTION.

THAT IS ONE THING.

THE OTHER THING YOU NEED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT BOTH VACCINES, RHODE ISLAND IS 21ST AMONG THE STATES THAT HAVE ADMINISTERED BOTH DOSES.

WE HAVE COVERED THE MOST WERE DEATHS ARE HAPPENING.

SO WE ARE WORKING WHERE THE FIRE IS BURNING THE MOST INTENSELY.

JIM: ALL RIGHT.

WE WILL CONTINUE THIS MAY BE A LITTLE LATER IN OUR ONLINE BONUS SEGMENT.

WE HAVE ABOUT SIX MINUTES LEFT.

I DO WANT TO GET TO IMPEACHMENT.

ARLENE, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN TO UNPACK THIS.

WHEN DIVER GOING BACK AND FORTH A LITTLE BIT.

LOOK, YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN.

I KNOW YOU HAVE HAD SOME ISSUES ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK IN THIS MOMENT IN TIME GOING FORWARD.

SOME REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID WE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DOING THIS.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS AS WE WATCH THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT?

ARLENE: AS OF THIS FILMING, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE REBUTTAL AND/OR ANY POTENTIALLY REMEDIATED ELEMENTS TO THE DEFENSE BY THE PRESIDENT, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, CERTAINLY IT IS A DAMMING INDICTMENT.

I QUITE AGREE THAT IF THIS IS AN INSURRECTION BEHAVIOR, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IN FACT IS.

I THINK THIS IS A VERY CRITICAL TIME FOR REPUBLICANS, AND THEY ARE EITHER GOING TO GAIN THE PARTY BACK, OR THEY ARE NOT.

I THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS AS MUCH ON TRIAL AS DONALD TRUMP IS, AND QUITE HONESTLY, YES, I AM A REPUBLICAN LIKELY NICK GORHAMS AND BRAD GORHAMS OF THE WORLD, CLAUDINE SCHNEIDER, PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAD A SENSE OF PUBLIC SERVICE AS OPPOSED TO SELF-PRESERVATION, AND I FOR 1 AM GOING TO BE DEEPLY DISTURBED IF THOSE PEOPLE IN THE SENATE TURN OUT TO BE AS GUTLESS AS THEY SEEM TO BE RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION, THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT WILL REBUT THE PRESIDENT'S BEHAVIOR, HE SHOULD DEFINITELY BE BARRED FROM FURTHER OFFICE.

I JUST HOPE THAT THEY HAVE SOME COURAGE AND GUTS IN THE U.S. SENATE TO DO THAT.

JIM: NICK?

NICK: IMPEACHMENT TRIALS DO ONE THING.

THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN.

THEY DIVIDE A NATION.

THERE'S NO POINT IN DOING THIS.

ARLENE: HE DIVIDED THE NATION, NOT THEM.

NICK: IT WAS AN UNMITIGATED DISASTER, AND THE REPUBLICANS WHO INSISTED ON HAVING IT SUFFERED FOR IT, DESERVEDLY SO.

JOE BIDEN CAME IN AS THEY BRING TOGETHER PRESIDENT.

THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING.

IF HE WANTS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, HE SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS TRIAL WOULD DIVIDE THE COUNTRY.

IT IS DOING EXACTLY THAT.

IT IS DIVIDING EVERYBODY.

THERE ARE 75 MILLION PEOPLE, 74 AND CHANGE MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.

IF YOU THINK THE TRIAL IS GOING TO DISENFRANCHISE THEM FROM DONALD TRUMP, I THINK YOU ARE DEAD WRONG.

THOSE PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IN HIM, AND IT JUST MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE, AND SUCH A CLOSELY CONTESTED ELECTION, AND THIS TRIAL IS ABOUT THE ELECTION, TO JUST DRIVE THE WEDGE DEEPER INTO THE LOG AND KEEP SPLITTING PEOPLE APART.

IT IS A BAD IDEA.

THERE'S NO RULES OF EVIDENCE.

THIS IS JUST A POLITICAL SHOW, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT.

PABLO: CLOSELY CONTESTED ELECTION?

MAYBE WE ARE WATCHING A DIFFERENT RESULT.

THIS IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM.

WHAT WE HAVE IS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DISENFRANCHISED FROM THE TRUTH.

WHAT THIS TRIAL IS DOING IS BASICALLY AIRING OUT THE TRUTH, SHOWING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT THIS WAS A BIG LIE ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD.

THAT DONALD TRUMP LOST THIS ELECTION IN A LANDSLIDE.

HIS BEHAVIOR FROM EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTION AND THROUGH THE ELECTION WAS AGAINST DEMOCRACY, WAS AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

JANUARY 6 BECAME THE COMBINATION OF THAT EFFORT.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING.

I COULD GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT THAT HIS WORDS WERE NOT EXACTLY SAYING GO THERE AND BURN UP THE CAPITOL.

BUT AFTER THE INVASION, AFTER THE SEDITION BEGINS AND HE TWEETS AGAINST MIKE PENCE, AND HE TELLS THEM I LOVE YOU, YOU ARE SPECIAL, AND YOU SAY RENUMBER THIS DATE FOREVER?

I MEAN, COME ON.

HE'S NOT A GUY WHO WAS DEFENDING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE CONSTITUTION.

NO.

HE IS COMMITTING TREASON AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

JIM: NICK?

NICK: WELL, HE'S ALREADY OUT OF OFFICE, AND I DON'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS A LANDSLIDE.

IT WAS A LANDSLIDE IN TURN OUT.

IT WAS THE LARGEST TURNOUT EVER.

SO TRUMP GOT MORE VOTES THAN ANY REPUBLICAN EVER, AND BIDEN GOT MORE VOTES THAN ANY THAT EVER.

PABLO: ANY PRESIDENT EVER.

THAN ANY PRESIDENT EVER.

NICK: AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

THAT IS GOING TO PRODUCE A LANDSLIDE OF DIVISION.

THIS TRIAL IS ABOUT NOTHING BUT TRYING TO DESTROY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

JIM: ALL RIGHT, ARLENE -- YOU GET THE LAST MINUTE, ARLENE.

ARLENE: THE REPUBLICANS ARE DESTROYING THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IF THEY DO NOT STAND UP AS TRUE PATRIOTS AND PRESERVE THE PRINCIPLE OF FREE ELECTION AND THE ELECTORAL.

THAT IS WHAT YOU DO.

NOT BEING A SORE LOSER AND TELLING EVERYBODY I WAS ROBBED.

I'VE LOST ELECTIONS.

NICK: THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS TRIAL, AND THEY ARE.

THE TRIAL IS BEING PUT ON AT THE BEHEST OF THE MAJORITY.

DON'T FORGET THAT.

THE MAJORITY IS THE DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE LISTENING.

THEY HAVEN'T EVEN GIVEN THEIR VOTE YET.

HOW CAN YOU CONDEMN THEM AT THIS POINT?

ARLENE: I AM NOT CONDEMNING THEM.

IT IS STILL OPEN AS TO WHETHER THEY ARE GOING TO BE GUTLESS OR NOT.

CERTAINLY, THEIR COMMENTS PRE-IMPEACHMENT SUGGEST THAT THEY ARE NOT OPEN TO EVEN LISTENING TO THE EVIDENCE.

YOU HAVE A DUTY TO THE COUNTRY, NOT TO YOUR PARTY.

YOUR PARTY COMES SECOND.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA COMES FIRST.

JIM: I'VE GOT TO JUMP IN.

THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE.

WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS ONLINE.

IT IS OUR ONLINE BONUS SEGMENT.

NICK, TAKE A SIP OF WATER.

ARLENE, TAKE A BREATH.

PABLO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO.

[LAUGHTER] BUT WE WILL BE BACK.

GO TO RIPBS.ORG/LIVELY.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THIS WEEK.

FOLKS, GO ONLINE RIGHT NOW TO CHECK AS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" CONTINUES.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK.

♪ [CAPTIONING PREFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT," HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.