JIM: THIS WEEK ON A LIVELY EXPERIMENT, NEW LIFE OR A PROMINENT BUILDING THAT HAS BEEN VACANT FOR NEARLY A DECADE.

AND THE FIELD GROWS FOR THE STATES NUMBER TWO ELECTED POSITION.

>> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I AM JOHN HAYES MY JUNIOR.

FOR OVER 30 YEARS, A LIVELY EXPERIMENT PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACED RHODE ISLANDERS.

I AM A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS GREAT PROGRAM, RHODE ISLAND PBS.

JIM: JOINING US ON THE PANEL IS BILL BARTHOLOMEW, FOUNDER AND HOST OF THE BARTHOLOMEWTOWN PODCAST.

PROFESSOR WENDY SCHILLER AND ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST LOU PULNER.

WELCOME TO LIVELY.

I'M JIM HUMMEL AND IT IS GREAT TO BE BACK WITH YOU AGAIN.

GOVERNOR MCKEE TUESDAY ANNOUNCED DETAILS OF A PLAN FOR THE SO-CALLED SUPERMAN BUILDING THAT HE HAD BEEN HINTING AT FOR MONTHS.

A $220 MILLION REDEVELOPMENT OF APARTMENTS WITH A $40 MILLION COMMITMENT OF STATE AND LOCAL FUNDING TO MAKE IT WORK.

DEVELOPERS SAY THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING INCLUDED BUT HOW THAT WILL LOOK IS OPEN TO DEBATE.

THAT IS ONE OF MANY QUESTIONS I THINK THIS IS THE OPENING BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT THEY BILL: COULD NOT ANSWER.

BILL:THAT'S IT.

IN SOME WAYS THERE ARE QUESTIONS THAT WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL THE BUILDING IS RENOVATED AND THE MARKET DICTATES WHO IS GOING TO LIVE THERE.

285 APARTMENTS, 25% ARE AFFORDABLE.

IS THAT A AFFORDABLE OR CAPITAL?

SOME PEOPLE SUGGESTED OBA $50,000 INCOME THRESHOLD TO QUALIFY FOR THAT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

TO MANY PEOPLE IN THE STATE AND MANY CREDITS ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE AND CONSERVATIVE SIDE, AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS -- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE MAKING LESS THAN 35,000 DOLLARS, $25,000 A YEAR SO THERE IS CONFUSION ON WHO THIS WILL SERVE.

ALSO APARTMENTS THAT ARE BEING AT MARKET RATE, WHO WILL LIVE THERE?

THESE PEOPLE ARE COMMUTING TO BOSTON?

OR MAYBE THEY'RE SAYING I WILL MOVE OUT OF THE SUBURBS INTO DOWNTOWN.

JIM: A MARRIAGE OF PROGRESSIVES AND CONSERVATIVES, YOU DON'T SEE THAT OFTEN.

BILL: IT IS THE INSIDER VERSUS OUTSIDER GAME.

WHEN THERE'S AN ISSUE THAT SEEMS TO BE DOMINATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE INSIDE IN TERMS OF THE DIRECTION OF THE DECISION OR POLICY, YOU SEE THAT ALLIANCE OF A SAN BELL AND SOME OF THE FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

PROF. SCHILLER: I THINK THIS ISSUE OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN TERMS OF SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

FOR FAMILIES THAT COULD LIVE IN THE SUPERMAN BUILDING OR ANY NEW DEVELOPMENT, I THINK TO THEM WHAT ARE WE DOING AS GOVERNMENT POLICY THAT IS THE BEST THING FOR THAT FAMILY?

PROVIDENCE SCHOOLS CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE, THOUGH THEY ARE TRYING TO GET BETTER.

WOULD IT BE BETTER TO USE PUBLIC MONEY OR TAX DOLLARS FOR EXAMPLE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE COULD AFFORD HOUSING FOR A FAMILY IN AREAS WHERE SCHOOLS WERE REALLY GOOD.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHY THE PUSH TO PUT FAMILIES DOWNTOWN WHERE IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST LIFE SITUATION FOR FAMILIES THAT ARE NOT MAKING A LOT OF MONEY BUT ALSO HAVE CHILDREN THAT NEED TO GO TO GOOD SCHOOLS.

I THINK IT IS TWO SEPARATED POLICY.

THERE IS TOO MUCH GOING INTO THIS.

DO WE NEED TO DEVELOP DOWNTOWN?

IT HAS BEEN DEVELOPING A LOT.

THERE'S A LOT OF NEW HOUSING GOING ON EVERYWHERE AND IS BECOMING A MORE REALISTIC DESTINATION PLACE FOR PEOPLE.

JIM: YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT FAMILIES DOWNTOWN AND THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING ELEMENT IS ALMOST AN AFTERTHOUGHT FORCED INTO.

IT WAS A QUOTA BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WILL MAKE IT WORK.

IT IS LIKELY HAVE TO DO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

LOU: YEAH.

THEY WERE PUTTING LIPSTICK ON A PIG ACCORDING TO GORDON FOX.

THIS BUILDING WAS PURCHASED FOR 33 MILLION DOLLARS AROUND $14 MILLION NOW.

$210 MILLION TO RENOVATED.

PROVIDENCE IS BORROWING ALMOST ALL OF THE 15,000 DOLLARS -- $15 MILLION THEY HAVE TO PUT IN.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

EVERYTHING COULD GO WRONG.

JIM: THE DEMAND IS HORRIBLE BUT WE HAVE BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THE REALESTATE MARKET GOES INTO CYCLES.

WHEN THIS IS DONE THREE YEARS FROM NOW, WHAT WILL THE MARKET LOOK LIKE?

LOU: I'M NOT NOSTRUM ON -- I AM NOT NOSTRADAMUS.

PROF. SCHILLER: WE HAVE REALLY SOLID EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE IN AND AROUND PROVIDENCE, OBVIOUSLY URI HAS CAME DOWNTOWN, RICK PROVIDENCE COP -- PROVIDENCE COLLEGE.

THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE SO THERE IS A HUGE STUDENT COMP LIKES GOING IN NOT THAT FAR AWAY AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY BIG HOUSES ON THE EAST SIDE.

FOR EXAMPLE NORTH PROVIDENCE OR PROVIDENCE THAT MAYBE WANT TO LIVE DOWNTOWN, YOU NEVER KNOW.

I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A MARKING -- I DO NOT THINK THERE IS NOT A MARKET FOR THIS.

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A MARKET FOR THIS.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE PRICE POINT, THAT IS THE ONE THING I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE NEW BUILDING.

IT IS PRICED AT A HIGH LEVEL.

IS THE SUPERMAN BUILDING EXPECTING THOSE KIND OF RENTS BECAUSE IT IS UNREALISTIC?

JIM: THERE IS A SERIOUS SHORTAGE IN INVENTORY IN DOWNTOWN PROVIDENCE IF YOU WANT TO LIVE THERE.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO FIND AN APARTMENT.

I THINK OF THE STATE WAS COMPLETELY HONEST ABOUT THE STATE, CITY, DEVELOPER WERE HONEST ABOUT THE PROCESS, THEY ARE TRYING TO ATTRACT SOMEONE, A CERTAIN PERSON, SOMEONE THAT MIGHT WORK AT THE WEXFORD BUILDING, LET'S GO TO TRADER JOE'S ON THE WAY HOME, AND THEY ONE THAT'S NEW PROVIDENCE -- WANT TO THIS NEW PROVIDENCE, 24 PERCENT AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS A NEW BOW BUT THEY WANT TO ATTRACT NEW PEOPLE TO COME TO THE CITY END LEAVE BOSTON OR NEW YORK OR ANYWHERE ELSE AND CREATE THIS NEW DYNAMIC GOING INTO THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS.

PROF. SCHILLER: LET'S NOT FORGET ABOUT THE MASS TRANSIT, THEY ARE CHANGING THE BUS ROUTES SO YOU CAN HOP ON A BUS CLOSE TO THAT AREA AND GO STRAIGHT TO THE TRAIN STATION TO GET THE TRAIN, MAKING COMMUTING EASIER.

OVER TIME I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF POTENTIAL.

WHEN WILL WE SEE RETURN ON THAT?

YOU GOTTA START SOMEWHERE AND THE BUILDING YOU WOULD HAVE TO DESTROY IT OR RENOVATED.

YOU CANNOT KEEP IT THERE FOREVER.

JIM: THE OTHER THING I HAVE NOT HEARD ABOUT IS COST OVERRUNS.

YOU KNOW THERE WILL BE AN OVERRUN.

LOU: ABSOLUTELY.

JIM: WHO PAYS FOR THAT?

LIKE THE WORCESTER STADIUM LOOKS BEAUTIFUL BUT PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, YOU GET 75% INTO THE PROJECT AND CAN'T SAY WE WILL NOT MEET BUDGETS.

LOU: WE WILL HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE A PORTION OF THEIR INVESTMENTS AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

AGAIN PRO RATA, IT WOULD BE THE CITY AND STATE CONTRIBUTING TO THE OVERRUN.

JIM: A FINAL POINT ON THIS, IT MAKES SENSE, THEY HAVE A GOVERNOR, SPEAKER, AND HOUSE PRESIDENT ON BOARD AND THE WHOLE PROVIDENCE DELEGATION.

DESPITE THE OPPOSITION, LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE THEIR EGGS IN A BASKET ON DAY ONE.

TO GET THIS PASSED.

BILL: EXCEPT FOR WHO WASN'T THERE, THE SENATOR FROM THAT AREA, THE COUNCILPERSON FROM THAT AREA.

JIM: AND THE COUNCIL HAS TO SIGN OFF.

BILL: AND IT'S THE BEHEST OF THE COUNCIL, SO THERE ARE BARRIERS FOR THIS TO TAKE PLACE BUT I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT, HOW ABOUT STEPHAN PRYOR?

THE GUYS PIPPA MANN OF THE CENTURY ON THIS THING I THINK IT WILL GO THROUGH.

JIM: THE MAYOR SAID HE WAS TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY DRIVING IN 195 SOUTH, I DON'T HOW THAT WORKS, THE SUPERMAN BUILDING IS A BUILDING WE ALL HAVE A CONNECTION TO, WE ALL FEEL ATTACHED TO IT.

IN NO SMALL WAY, IT IS A SYMBOL OF THE ENTIRE STATE.

I DID NOT SEAT ON THE LICENSE PLATE.

LOU: HE WAXES ON LIKE THAT, SOUNDING GOOD FOR HALF A MINUTE.

PROF. SCHILLER: SWITCHING TO JOHN MACK OFFICE, THEY ARE TO UP-AND-COMING -- RELATIVELY RECENTLY ELECTED PEOPLE WHO I THINK ARE POSITIONING THEMSELVES.

THEY WILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY WANT TO BE AND WHO THEY WANT TO ALIGN WITH AND WHO THEY ARE GOING TO REPRESENT AND HOW DID THEY GET THEMSELVES REPRESENTING THE PROGRESSIVE WING AND PEOPLE WHOSE VOICES HAVE NOT BEEN HEARD BEFORE AND BEING PART OF THE ESTABLISHMENT HERE.

I THINK THEIR HOLDOUTS WILL BE IN MY OPINION FOR BOTH OF THEM FAIRLY STRATEGIC.

JIM: LET ME STAY WITH YOU.

VIOLENCE, THE SPIKE, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THESE NICE DEVELOPMENTS AND THEN THE REALITY OF BEING IN PROVIDENCE TO A LESSER EXTENT NEWPORT WHICH WE WILL TALK ABOUT IN A BIT, AND INTO THE SUMMER MONTHS, COVID IS GRADUALLY ENDING, PEOPLE ARE OUT, AND HIS CONCERN ABOUT HIS PROVIDENCE A SAFE PLACE TO GO.

PROF. SCHILLER: I THINK IF ANYBODY WAKES UP IN THE MORNING AND LOOKS AT WHATEVER YOUR NEWSFEED IS, THERE ARE SHOOTINGS EVERY SINGLE DAY IN EVERY SINGLE VENUE.

BIRTHDAY PARTIES, AFTER YOU GO TO A BASEBALL GAME IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

EVERYWHERE YOU LIVE THERE ARE TOO MANY GUNS THAT ARE TOO EASILY AVAILABLE.

LEGAL, ILLEGAL, TOO MANY GUNS, TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE THEM, YOU COULD SAY 30 TO 25 YEARS AGO PEOPLE WOULD HAVE A FIVE AND NOW THEY PULL OUT A GUN.

EASE OUR STUDENTS NOW PULLING OUT A GUN.

INDIANA FOR EXAMPLE, HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING, YOU GET MAD AND PULL OUT A GUN.

IN VIRGINIA, 2:00 IN THE MORNING, A YOUNG REPORTER WAS KILLED AND A BYSTANDER INSTANTLY.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

IT IS A PROBLEM.

IT MAKES US "LESS SAFE."

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO COMBINE LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP IN A SAFE WAY AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO KEEP GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE, ILLEGALLY, GHOST GUNS.

IF YOU HAVE TO GET A LICENSE TO DRIVE A CAR, YOU OUGHT TO HAVE A LICENSE TO OPERATE AND OWN A GUN.

A LOT OF STATES ARE MOVING TO KNOW CONCEALED CARRY PERMITS AT ALL.

SO YOU DON'T NEED A PERMIT TO GET A GUN.

I THINK THIS IS A MASSIVE PROBLEM BUT IT IS NOT UNIQUE TO PROVIDENCE SO I DO NOT KNOW HOW IT WOULD BE FOR PROVIDENCE.

LOU: I'M GRATEFUL WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROSECUTOR IN OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL, A LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE LIKE WE HAVE SEEN IN CHICAGO AND NEW YORK CITY, OWNERS OF CONSERVATIVE AND HE IS A SERIOUS PROSECUTOR.

YOU GET CHARGED AND YOU ARE GOING AWAY.

JIM: PROVIDENCE, I LIVE IN PROVIDENCE AND I DO NOT FEEL UNSAFE.

I LIVE IN SOUTH PROVIDENCE IN ELMWOOD.

I COME BACK AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING SOMETIMES FROM A GIG AND UNLOADING GEAR.

A LOT OF THAT IS -- JIM: YOU THINK THESE ARE ISOLATED?

LOU: IT'S A LOT OF GANG RELATED.

BILL: SOMETIMES WHEN WE LOOK AT CRIME AS A WHOLE, I THINK ADDRESSING IT HERE IN PROVIDENCE FOR EXAMPLE, THE COMMUNITY POLICING MODEL IS A SMART ONE.

I THINK CHIEF CAMERON -- CHIEF CLEMENS IS ON THE FOREFRONT OF MANAGING AND HIS GOAL TO ELEVATE THE PROVIDENCE POLICE ROSTER, THE NUMBER OF ACTIVE POLICE OFFICERS MAKES SENSE, IF THOSE OFFICERS ARE DOING COMMUNITY POLICING AND ARE FORMING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

JIM: IT IS NOT JUST RESOURCES BUT STRATEGICALLY DEPLOYING THEM.

BILL: ABSOLUTELY.

LOU: AND SUBSTATION'S GREAT POLICY.

PROF. SCHILLER: AND RECRUITING PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY TO BE A PART OF LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS BEEN A BIG ISSUE.

YOU SAW THE OUTGOING STATE POLICE INTERVIEW AND HE SAID THE SAME THING, WE ARE UNDERSTAFFED RECRUIT, WE TRY TO RECRUIT A MORE DIVERSE FORCE.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND I THINK WE HAVE SEEN A COMMITMENT FROM LEADERS TO DO THAT.

I THINK IT'S A GENERAL SENSE WE ARE LESS SAFE EVEN THOUGH NUMERICALLY VIOLENT IS WAY LOWER THAN 20 YEARS AGO.

WE STILL FEEL UNSAFE AND I THINK THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL PROBLEM.

JIM: THAT COULD BE MEDIA AND YOUR INSTANT FEED AND EVERYTHING IS THERE.

LOU: IN THE SUBWAY IN BROOKLYN A COUPLE DAYS AGO.

THAT DOES NOT FEED INTO GREAT CONFIDENCE WHEN YOU'RE DOING PUBLIC RINSE PATE.

JIM: LET'S SHIFT GEARS AND GET INTO POLITICS A LITTLE BIT.

FOR AN OFFICE THAT HAS BEEN MALIGNED OVER THE YEARS IN OUR GOVERNOR'S RACE IS ATTRACTING A LOT OF ATTENTION.

WE NOW HAVE THREE CANDIDATES ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE AND TWO ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

BILL: IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING.

IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY WE HAD TO MATOS ANNOUNCED HER INTENTION TO STAY AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, REMAIN AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR AND HAD THE PRESIDENT ON STAGE WITH HER, A NUMBER OF OTHER POLITICAL LEADERS, OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNOR, DEBORAH RUGGIERO HAS THE SUPPORT OF SPEAKER RICARD G. LOU: AND MOST OF HER CHAMBER.

JIM: YEAH.

BILL: IT CREATES AN INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT BETWEEN TWO CANDIDATES THAT COULD CREATE A PATHWAY OF SORTS FOR SENATOR CYNTHIA MENDEZ, THE PROGRESSIVE WHO IS IN TANDEM WITH MATT BROWN.

I DO NOT THINK SENATOR MENDEZ WILL GET STATEWIDE MOMENTUM, BUT IN CONVERSATION LAST NIGHT WITH SOME POLITICOS I WAS HANGING OUT WITH, WE WERE WONDERING, HOW DOES RHODE ISLAND, IT WILL BE A LITTLE LITMUS TEST, REACTION TO SEEING A BALLOT AND HAVING NO IDEA WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE AND SEEING TWO LATINA NAMES VERSUS AN ITALIAN OR A MORE AMERICANIZED NAME, WILL THAT GIVE DEBORAH RUGGIERO AT THE BALLOT BOX AND ADVANTAGE BASED ON IGNORANT VOTE THAT IS BASED ON LOOKING AT NAMES AND GOING, OK, I AM GUESSING THAT THE LATINA WOMEN ARE MORE PROGRESSIVE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO UNINFORMED VOTERS THAT WILL DECIDE THIS RACE.

JIM: COULD YOU IMAGINE IF CYNTHIA MENDEZ GOT ELECTED HAVING TO WORK WITH DAN MCKEE?

[LAUGHTER] HE WOULD CHANGE THE LOCKS ON HIS STATEHOUSE.

LOU: I THINK IT IS REFRESHING SEEING OUR GOVERNOR OR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WORKING IN LOCKSTEP.

IT IS REFRESHING.

HE HAS EMBRACED HER -- JIM: IF NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

LOU: HE HAS EMBRACED HER ON THE WAY HE WAS NOT EMBRACED BY HIS PREDECESSOR.

IT IS REFRESHING.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM IF THEY WANT TO RUN TOGETHER.

PROF. SCHILLER: I THINK THE PERCEPTION -- THIS IS CHRONIC OF INTERNATIONAL AND RHODE ISLAND, THE LATINO VOTING BLOCK IS MUCH MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE INSIDE BASEBALL HERE THAN I AM IS NOT MONOLITHIC.

NOT EVERYBODY IS THE SAME.

WE KNOW THAT OF A DOMINICAN, A GUATEMALAN, PUERTO RICAN COMMUNITY, SO THERE ARE REAL DIVISIONS WITHIN THE LATINO COMMUNITY IN TERMS OF BUSINESS INTERESTS, PROGRESSIVE POLITICS.

I THINK IT WILL THE REALLY INTERESTING -- THERE ARE LOTS OF LATINX PEOPLE RUNNING.

I DON'T NOT -- I DO NOT SEE THE DIVISION THERE I THINK THEY WILL BE COURTED IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND WILL HAVE DIFFERENT BASES OF SUPPORT AND I THINK IT WILL BE FASCINATING.

I ACTUALLY THINK THAT IT WILL BE A VERY TOUGH YEAR FOR PROGRESSIVES ACROSS THE BOARD.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF SENSE OF INSECURITY, OF TIME ALL TO, AND WE HAVE SEEN AMERICAN ELECTIONS AT THE STATE AND NATIONAL LEVEL.

PEOPLE GO TO WHAT THEY ARE FAMILIAR WITH BUT MATT HAS DONE A GOOD JOB, MICKEY ALLOWED -- ENABLED HER TO DO THAT, TO LOOK LIKE A LEADER, SOUND LIKE A LEADER, SHE WAS ALREADY A LEADER, A TOUGH POLITICIAN, SHE HAS COME BACK AND WON AGAIN AND I THINK SHE IS GEARING UP FOR A CAREER.

THIS IS NOT JUST LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, SHE IS BUILDING A BASE IN A POLITICAL MACHINE.

JIM: SHE SOUNDED INCREDIBLY WELL PREPARED FOR A LONG CAREER OF POLITICS.

BILL: SHE HAD ENERGY, VISUALIZATION, THE ROLLOUT YESTERDAY WAS SOMETHING YOU WOULD SEE FROM AN A BLOCK TYPE POLITICAL LEADER AND I THINK SHE VERY WELL COULD BE A GOVERNOR IN HER LIFETIME.

LOU: TO THE PROFESSOR'S POINT, WE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH PROGRESSIVES IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND WE SEE OUR COUNTRY GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET.

I DO NOT THINK THAT BODES WELL FOR PROGRESSIVES IN RHODE ISLAND.

I THINK IT WILL BE A HECK OF A YEAR FOR PROGRESSIVES LOSING THEIR SACHET.

PROF. SCHILLER: THE ONLY CAVEAT IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NATIONALLY GOES TOO FAR OFF OF THE RANCH.

I'M NOT SURE PROGRESSIVES WILL DO THAT WELL BUT I THINK SOME DEMOCRATS WILL SURVIVE.

IN CERTAIN RACES WHERE THEY SHOULD LOSE TO THE REPUBLICAN BUT AS THE NATIONAL PARTY BECOMES MORE TAYLOR GRAIN, THAT IS PROBLEMATIC FOR REPUBLICANS.

LOU: THAT WOULD BE DISASTROUS.

JIM: AND WE HAVE NOT HEARD MUCH -- MATT BROWN AND CINDY MENDEZ SAID THEY WILL HAVE 50 CANDIDATES AND WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH SINCE THEN.

MATT IS LIKE WE HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING.

SHORT OF THE CAMPOUT THEY DID.

BILL: THAT WAS DECEMBER.

IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE SPEAKING OFF RECORD WITH A LOT OF PROGRESSIVE LEADERS IN THE STATE OR ACTIVIST LEADERS IN THE STATE, MACK BROWN IS NOT PARTICULARLY WELL-LIKED OR DOES NOT EMBODY THE SPIRIT OF WHAT THAT MOVEMENT IS ABOUT NECESSARILY BUT THEY ALSO COULD SAY WE GOT DR. MUNOZ BUT HE HAS NO SHOT AND WE DO NOT WANT TO SEE HELENA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO THEY ARE GETTING BEHIND MACK BROWN BUT MACK BROWN -- MATT BROWN BUT MATT BROWN HAS BEEN CONSPICUOUS.

YOU LOOK AT HIS RUN IN 20 HOW IT CAME UP SHORT AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS PERFORMANCE AND AARON REAGAN BERG'S PERFORMANCE.

HE GOT 49% OF THE VOTE AND IT'S ALMOST GOVERNOR.

MATT BROWN GOT CRUSHED.

THAT SHOWS IT REALLY DOES COME DOWN TO PERSONALITY.

IT IS NOT SIMPLY WHO IS THE PROGRESSIVE, IT IS PEOPLE IN THAT WORLD ARE LOOKING FOR A LEADER.

I'M NOT SURE THEY BELIEVE MATT BROWN IS THAT PERSON.

PROF. SCHILLER: WE DID A CONVERSATION WITH MUNOZ AT BROWN AND HE HAS GOT A LOT OF IDEAS, WELL-VERSED IN THINGS, AND I'VE BEEN SURPRISED HOW HE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO -- BUT SOCIAL MEDIA, I WAS SAYING WE HAVE AN OPERATION, PEOPLE WORKING FOR HIM, SO I AM SURPRISED HE HAS NOT BEEN AN ATTRACTIVE CANDIDATE BUT ALSO NELLIE GORBEA WHICH I THINK HAS DONE A VERY GOOD JOB SMOOTH POLITICIAN AND RAISED GOOD MONEY.

SHE IS NOT AS MUCH IN THE CONVERSATION AS SHE NEEDS TO BE BECAUSE YOU MENTION FOLKS, MENTIONED MICKEY, AND MACK BROWN, BUT NOT NELLIE GORBEA AND WHY NOT?

LOU: BECAUSE GOVERNOR MCKEE HAS ALL OF THE MONEY.

JIM: BUT HE ALSO HAS A MICROPHONE.

LOU: BUT HE IS ALSO BUYING THE VOTES.

WE KNOW IT'S 3000 FOR THE WOULD NOT 3000 FOR ME.

IT'S LIKE OPRAH WINFREY'S AUDIENCE, YOU GET 3000, EVERYBODY GETS 3000.

THE SECOND PAYMENT ON THAT $3000 IS JUST BEFORE IT -- 3000 IS JUST BEFORE THE PRIMARY.

JIM: HE HAS WALKED THAT BACK.

PROF. SCHILLER: BUT HE IS STILL GIVING THE MONEY.

JIM: THAT IS MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE LIKELY BEEN BUILT INTO NEGOTIATING.

PROF. SCHILLER: I DON'T BUY THIS AT ALL.

BILL: THE PACKAGING IS CLUMSY AND GIVES A PERCEPTION YOU HAVE THIS THREE K MCKEE.

PROF. SCHILLER: IT IS NOT CLUMSY, IT IS TOTALLY ON PURPOSE AND I DO NOT THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT IN ANY WAY.

I THINK HE HAS HAD SERIOUS MISSTEPS I THINK BETWEEN STAFF INVOLVEMENT AND PRIVATE DEALS AND WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS, HIS TEAM ARE EXPERIENCED POLITICIANS BUT MAYBE THAT IS NOT THE RIGHT THING FOR THIS DAY AND AGE AND HE WALKED IT BACK.

THE PEOPLE ARE STILL GETTING THE MONEY AND HIS NAME IS ALL OVER THAT.

LOU: AND A PAYMENT RIGHT BEFORE THE PRIMARY.

PROF. SCHILLER: NELLY HAS BEEN RAISING MONEY, KEEPING UP NOT QUITE THE SAME.

THE FOLKS CANDIDACY I HAVE SAID SHE HAS A LOT OF MONEY, I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE ARE READY FOR A GINA TOO.

SHE HAS NO PUBLIC EXPERIENCE AT ALL.

IN THIS DAY AND AGE, WITH THESE PROBLEMS, I AM NOT SURE HOW WELL THAT WILL RESONATE WITH A TOTAL LACK OF EXPERIENCE.

I THINK MCKEE LOOKS STEADY AND THINGS LOOK STEADY AND IF WE HAVE A GOOD SUMMER, I THINK THAT WILL BE A DIFFICULT THING TO SURMOUNT.

WE HAVE NO PUBLIC SECTOR EXPERIENCE.

JIM: IT'S A CHALLENGE BECAUSE THE PRIMARY, WHO IS PAYING ATTENTION IN AUGUST AND JULY?

THEY ARE ROLLING THESE ADS OUT.

DO YOU GET TRACTION NOW OR DO YOU SAVE YOUR MONEY FOR THE END?

THERE IS 4.5 MONTHS LEFT UNTIL THE PRIMARY AND THEN THE SPRINT TO THE ELECTION.

I KNOW EVERYBODY GOES THROUGH THIS, BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, I HAVE NOT SEEN -- WE SEE THE GOVERNOR EVERY DAY, THE OTHER CANDIDATES HAS BEEN CRICKETS.

LOU: IT IS TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES AND NOT THE CONTRIBUTIONS NECESSARILY NOTWITHSTANDING WHAT YOU SAID AS MUCH AS THEY WOULD LIKE IT TO BE.

THE REALITY IS I AM SURE THEY ARE WAITING UNTIL JUST BEFORE THE PRIMARIES AND AS YOU SAY THE SPRINT TO THE ELECTION.

BILL: FOLKS ROLLED OUT $1.3 MILLION IN QUARTER ONE.

JIM: BUT WHERE SHE SPENDING IT?

IS IN PHONE SURVEYS, POLLING.

THEY ARE GEARING UP.

IF YOU GOOGLE GOVERNOR DAN MCKEE, IF YOU DO A GOOGLE SEARCH, ANYTHING RELATED TO THE GOVERNOR OF RHODE ISLAND, YOU WILL SEE HER ADS POP UP.

THEY'RE SPENDING ON GOOGLEADS, TRYING TO MOVE THINGS BEHIND THE SCENES FOR SHARE.

WHEN DOES THAT BIG ROLLOUT HAPPEN?

THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION AND IT WILL BE TOO LATE ON JUNE BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL -- LOU: IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY, SPEND IT.

PROF. SCHILLER: RHODE ISLAND IS A SMALL STATE AND PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK THEY KNOW THE POLITICIANS.

HOW MANY PEOPLE IN RHODE ISLAND ARE DOING GOOGLE SEARCHES OF MCKEE?

NOBODY BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS WHO HE IS.

SON NOT HER THAT IS THE BEST ADVERTISING TO SPEND HER MONEY ON.

LOCAL TELEVISION FOR HER WOULD BE GOOD HERE.

I WILL INTRODUCE MYSELF TO YOU, GINA WAS TREASURER FOR YEARS, A BIG DIFFERENCE IN ROLLING OUT THAT CANDIDATE.

LOU: THE PENSION CASE REALLY MADE HER.

PROF. SCHILLER: A LOT OF VISIBILITY.

JIM: BEFORE WE GO TO OUTRAGES AND KUDOS, WE TAKE FRIDAY MORNING ON THURSDAY.

THE SENATOR DE LA CRUZ SAID PULLING THE PLUG AND WE SAW THIS WITH ED PACHECO, THERE ARE SO MANY DOLLARS OUT THERE AND I THINK SHE SAW THE ALLAN FUNG TRAIN COMING.

WERE YOU SURPRISED AT ALL?

BILL: I'M NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE I THINK MAY BE FUNK CAMP GOT TO HER AND HAD A CONVERSATION.

SHE WAS ONLY ABLE TO RAISE $80,000 COMPARED TO HALF A MILLION BY FONG.

IT WAS A CLUMSY ROLL OUT OF HER CAMPAIGN.

I KNOW SHE HAD SUPPORT AND TRACTION BUT IT WAS ALSO A LITTLE AMATEUR.

THE NON-BINARY HAD, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

THERE'S A LOT OF REASONS TO THINK SHE WAS NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME.

AT THE SAME TIME, SHE SAYS MY CONSTITUENTS WON ME TO REPRESENT THEM IN THE STATEHOUSE.

MAYBE THAT IS TRUE AS WELL.

BILL: BUT THAT'S LIKE THE GUY WHO'S BEEN AT THE SENATE FOR 60 YEARS AND IS ON THE VERGE OF INDICTMENT AND SAYS I'M RETIRING BECAUSE I WANT TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH MY FAMILY.

THE FAMILY IS LIKE I'M NOT SURE WE WANT TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH YOU.

I APPRECIATE THAT BUT IT WAS THE MONEY THAT DROVE THE ISSUE.

BILL: NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

YOU HAVE BOB LANCIA WHO THINKS HE ALMOST WON BECAUSE OF THE FACT -- AND HE THOUGHT HE WAS UP BECAUSE THEY HAD STARTED -- HAD NOT STARTED COUNTING MAIL BALLOTS YET.

SO THAT IS ALMOST A SIDESHOW FOR FONG TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

YOU BRING THE DE LA CRUZ PEOPLE INTO THE CAMP AND TRY TO SQUASH ANY PLANS HE'S GOT.

JIM: YOU RAISED THE QUESTION WE WERE EMAILING BACK AND FORTH, DOES BIDEN HURT THE CANDIDATE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE?

PROF. SCHILLER: RIGHT NOW, BIDEN LOOKS LIKE A DRAG ON THE CONGRESSIONAL RACES.

FOR FUNG, I THINK IT IS MORE FOR FUNG.

WE SAW THE FUNG AND TRUMP HAD AND I THINK THAT HURT HIM.

HE IS WELL-KNOWN, HAS NAME RECOGNITION, I THINK HE IS WELL RESPECTED AND WELL THOUGHT OF IN THE STATE.

LOU: HE DID A GOOD JOB.

PROF. SCHILLER: CAN HE SEPARATE FROM MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE?

BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO RUN ADS IN RHODE ISLAND, THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATS, SAYING IF MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE AND TRUMP AND EVERYONE ELSE.

IS THAT GOING TO BE JUST ENOUGH, PARTICULARLY IF THE SUPREME COURT GETS RID OF ABORTION.

WE HAVE CODIFIED ROE V. WADE'S.

-- ROE V. WADE.

THEY WOULD ASK WHAT YOU DO ABOUT THAT ISSUE IN RHODE ISLAND.

I THINK HE NAVIGATES THIS BUT IT GETS COMPLICATED IF YOU GUESS THE NOMINATED THROUGH THE FALL.

JIM: WE WILL DO A LIVELY EXTRA, NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL STUFF.

LET'S TO OUTRAGEOUS AND/OR KUDOS.

LOU: MY OUTRAGE IS I WANT AN 8 O NATO.

THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY SAY THEY CAN DO TO AVOID WORLD WAR III TO ASSIST UKRAINE.

THIS IS 2022.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE CANNOT DO MORE.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE CAN'T CLOSE THE AIRSPACE.

I KNOW WE ARE DOING A LOT OF THINGS BEHIND THE SCENES, LIKE THE SHIP THAT WENT ON YESTERDAY FROM RUSSIA, WE ARE DOING MORE THAN WE ARE LETTING ON.

BUT WE SHOULD NOT BE WATCHING THIS GENOCIDE, THESE ATROCITIES.

THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

JIM: WE WILL GET MORE OF THAT IN THE LIVELY.

BILL: LAST NIGHT MY FRIEND WAS COVERING AN EVENT OR MEETING, ANY EMERGENCY MEETING AT WEST WARWICK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN WEST WARWICK.

THERE WAS A SITUATION WITH A PRE-K TEACHER AND A STUDENT.

IT IS UNCLEAR WHAT IT WAS BUT THEY WERE, THE SCHOOL DEPARTMENT PUT FORTH SPOKESPERSON -- A SPOKESPERSON TO KICK THEM OFF THE PROPERTY.

IT IS PUBLIC PROPERTY, PUBLIC MEANING THE PUBLIC HAS THE RIGHT TO BE INFORMED.

YOU CAN MAKE ARGUMENTS THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE THE MEDIA NEEDS TO BE PUSHED BACK OR YOU CAN MAKE ARGUMENTS A MEDIA TRUCK MAY BE IN THE WAY BUT TO KICK REPORTERS OUT OF PUBLIC SPACES, THAT IS -- THOSE ARE THE SCENES OF FASCISM AND WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT IT.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS WHAT HAPPENED IN WEST WARWICK.

LOU: TOUCHE.

PROF. SCHILLER: WE ARE SPENDING TOO MUCH MONEY IN GOVERNMENT.

THAT IS MY OUTRAGE.

IT IS DIRECTED AT THE MONEY IN RHODE ISLAND AND ALSO AT THE 6.5 TRILLION DOLLAR BUDGET THE PRESIDENT BIDEN PROPOSE.

6.5 TRILLION DOLLAR BUDGET.

I WANT TO STRESS THIS IS EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH FOR A FEDERAL BUDGET AND PUSHES ALL STATE BUDGETS HIGHER BECAUSE WE GET THIS MONEY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE, PROBABLY DISPROPORTIONATE FOR RHODE ISLANDERS IN TERMS OF TAXES, BUT THIS IS TAX DOLLARS, OUR TAX DOLLARS, YOUR NEIGHBORS EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY TAX DOLLARS AND WE ACT AS IF IT'S A CANDY STORE.

MAYBE WE SHOULD NOT SPEND THE MONEY, MAYBE WE SHOULD SAVE IT OR WE CANNOT.

MAYBE WE SHOULD GIVE IT BACK BUT CAN'T THINK OF SOMETHING GOOD TO DO WITH IT.

IT IS TAXPAYER MONEY.

GET SO DEPENDENT ON HUGE INFLUXES OF FEDERAL DOLLARS, THOSE ARE FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS.

LOU: THAT IS A CONSERVATIVE VIEWPOINT AND I LIKE IT.

PROF. SCHILLER: I BELIEVE IN GOVERNMENT SERVICES AND TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE THAT CANNOT TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES AND PROVIDING DECENT HOUSING, SCHOOLING, HEALTH CARE, BUT WE ARE SPENDING WAY MORE MONEY THAN THAT AND I THINK SOMETIMES IT'S GOTTA STOP.

JIM: WE'VE GOT A LOT MORE TO GET TO.

THAT IS ALL FOR THE ON-AIR PORTION BUT WE WILL DO A SPECIAL ONLINE BONUS SEGMENT LIVELY EXTRA.

GO TO RIPBS.ORG/LIVELY.

WE HAVE NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL SUCK TO CONTINUE.

MAYBE WENDY CONTINUES TO SPOUT HER CONSERVATIVE WISE A LITTLE BUT MORE.

LOU, WENDY, BILL, THANK YOU MUCH.

JOIN US ONLINE AND IF NOT COME BACK HERE NEXT WEEK AS A LIVELY SPEARMAN CONTINUES.

-- LIVELY EXPERIMENT CONTINUES.

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FOR OVER 30 YEARS A LIVELY EXPERIMENT PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF THE POLITICAL