- [Jim] Coming up on this week's "A Lively Experiment".

The AG says the healthcare crisis is on the state's doorstep and offers some suggestions about what to do.

And who may be running for governor next year on the Democratic side.

- [Announcer] "A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by- - Hi, I'm John Hazen White Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

I'm a proud supporter of this great program and Rhode Island PBS.

- Joining us on the panel, veteran reporter and political contributor, Scott MacKay, Republican strategist, Lisa Pelosi, and political contributor, Don Roach.

And welcome to our latest "Lively".

I'm Jim Hummel, and it's great to have you with us this week.

We've talked a lot over the past several months right here about the looming healthcare crisis in Rhode Island.

The reality is, it's a problem that has been decades in the making with no quick fixes.

Attorney General Peter Neronha held a lengthy news conference on Wednesday with eight proposals for the short run and the long term.

Scotty, seems like we've been talking and writing about this for a very long time.

Some of it's going after big pharma.

The key piece to me is raising the Medicaid rates, you know, to a legislature that can't find two nickels to rub together all of a sudden, right?

(Scott chuckling) - Well, that's going to be a real problem.

I mean, let's face it, as you just said, you know, we're looking at deficits.

We got a structural deficit, of course, which hasn't really been playing down, and it's still there, and I just don't think there's any real easy fix to this, particularly with the primary care shortage.

It seems to me that when you see a lot of students in med school get themselves into debt, and then they go into specialties where they can make more money, you come out of med school owing 100, $200,000, being a primary care doctor means you're gonna be in hoc for, like, 20 years before you pay it off.

- And a lot of people, my daughter, my daughter's roommate in college was a pre-med, her dad was a doctor, and she just said, "I don't wanna do the slog anymore," and she became a PA. - Yeah, I can see that.

I mean, my wife, the doctor.

- Right.

- Basically says if you call a plumber on a Saturday, he or she is making more money per hour than your pediatrician.

- Yeah, it's wild.

Lisa.

- You know, the bottom line is we have a state budget that's close to $14 billion.

And how many times do we hear the politicians say that the budget is always about priorities?

This is a priority.

So you can't tell me that you can't find the money in this budget.

It doesn't always have to be the extra money that comes in.

They have to go back to the original budget and say, where can we find this money?

And I don't think they wanna take that time to do that, but it is- - 2, 3, 4% That's a lot of money.

- It is.

But, you know, again, it's a priority for the state, so let's fund it, let's find the funding for it.

And the money's there, they just have to go into the budget and say, instead of funding this, we need to put the money toward primary care docs.

- Peter Neronha?

- Yeah, I think the AG is shedding a light on a problem that he's, you know, raised throughout his tenure.

But I think, for me, this, and it's a problem that I feel like the key administration and our general assembly haven't really been focused on.

And when you have places like Anchor Medical leaving, and 25,000 Rhode Islanders are without healthcare, and I think maybe the number overall is 100,000 Rhode Islanders without a primary care physician, you just think of the long term impacts to the cost of the state to care for those people eventually.

And you think about some of the initiatives, it feels just like common sense to do.

And so, I always feel like if it's a common sense solution, Rhode Island won't do it.

(all chuckling) - Well, I think you have to look at who's paying these bills.

If you look at the Rhode Island population that uses hospitals, you'll find that probably 70% with Medicare, Medicaid, the nursing homes and the VA, it's gotta be 70% of people, or very close to it.

I think at most hospitals are on some kind of taxpayer subsidized insurance.

- And those are the low rates.

You wonder if it was flipped, and it never would be, but if it was 70% private insurance, even though the private insurance is paying a little bit less than mass, it would make a big difference.

It's just that so many are on that public money that's at a lower rate.

- That's true.

And a lot of these folks are working.

I think the worst thing that happens is the way that these big box retailers and fast food joints, that they don't offer health insurance to their employees.

Their employees don't work enough hours, but the taxpayer subsidizes their healthcare because they end up on Medicaid.

- Yeah.

Let me just say a little advice to Peter Neronha, not that he needs it from me.

He held a press conference the other day.

He went on and on about a variety of things.

Then he had a handful of staffers come up before they even answered questions.

Everybody was, like, zoned out.

Maybe that was a filibuster so the reporters wouldn't answer questions, and he's good with the media, so if he's gonna run for a governor, maybe he should take that to heart.

- Yeah, I think he needs a little advice if he's gonna run for governor.

And I think, you know, when his press conference happened on Wednesday, I was kind of scratching my head thinking this is kind of out of the wheelhouse for an attorney general for me, saying as much as he was saying, putting his foot into healthcare, and introducing the package so late in the session.

I'm thinking, why are you doing this?

And then now we know, he's setting himself up to run for governor.

- Yeah, and he said, so let's talk about that.

The race is still a ways off.

You have Dan McKee just yesterday, late yesterday, a poll came out showing him, it's a UNH poll, at 19% approval.

And that's, I mean, that's double digits below what it was before.

Were you surprised that it was that low?

- Maybe surprised that it was that high, to be honest with you.

I mean, I think the McKee administration has just not done a really good job, to put it mildly.

And so I feel like Rhode Islanders have zero trust, and why should they have in the McKee administration?

So I wasn't surprised at all.

- You know the UNH people?

- Yes, I do.

And Andy Smith is a very good pollster, Professor Smith.

He's worked for the Boston Globe, for the Providence Journal, for the Public's Radio.

In fact, we worked with him on the Public's Radio, and he's excellent.

This seems to me a little low, frankly.

Sometimes a poll can be an outlier, as we all know.

However, it looks like this will encourage people, perhaps Neronha, certainly Joe Shekarchi, who has a ton of money.

He's sitting on several million dollars, and he would love to run, as we all know.

And Helena Foulkes is already out there.

You know, she's moving her feet and raising money and doing the things that you have to do to prepare to run again.

And as you know, she came very close last time.

- Yeah, Helena Foulkes is doing a lot of fundraising, and I know she was laid out of the blocks.

Remember they said she was kind of, if she had had another month, maybe she would've done better.

I find it interesting, Neronha was talking a little bit maybe about Lieutenant Governor.

He's ruled that out.

So I think it's either gonna be governor or nothing at this point, but they're gonna be eyeing those poll numbers carefully over the next six months.

- And I think we've gotta be watching McKee right now.

I can understand why he's out there saying he's running again, because he's trying to finish this general assembly session.

And you don't wanna be a lame duck trying to negotiate with the House and Senate when you're saying you're not gonna run again.

So you have that.

Then the other thing you need to be looking at is his fundraising.

She has, I think, double what he has right now.

And then Shekarchi has, like, double of what- (all chuckling) - Everybody.

- Everybody.

- Guy's got $3 million.

- Putting it together.

- Shekarchi has more money than most people who are- - Even those senators.

- US senators.

- Yeah.

- Exactly.

- Yeah.

- And so he, and he's relentless.

He's out there all the time.

- I know we're a year out.

Do you think there's a chance that things change?

Do you think there's a chance McKee will just say he's in his mid-70s, he's had a career in public service, to just say, I'm done?

- Sure.

You know, I mean, (chuckling) I don't know how many times, and we go back a long way, and so do you, that people, the person who looks like they're the leader and they're measuring the drapes, you know, in the State House for the governor's office, two years out, they're not the person who ends up being governor, and that's gone on forever.

- What do you think?

- Yeah, and I'm just still stuck on what has McKee really accomplished?

And when you think about things that are really important to Rhode Islanders, just the bridge debacle that continues.

- Still no day of reckoning.

- Exactly.

- We still don't have a contractor.

Although I do hear within the next couple of weeks, in June, we're gonna be hearing who gets the contract.

- So for me, I'm hoping it's not like, you know, Joe Biden Lite for the Democrats with McKee at some point.

But I hope that he's not the Democratic candidate for governor, because I think the Democrats can do better.

- Republicans have traditionally done great in the governor's office.

You worked for one of them.

- I know.

- But not recently, and you wonder who's on the bench, who would want to step up?

- And we were talking about it, you know, just a few minutes ago before we started.

And we don't have any names that are coming forward right now.

I don't see Dan McKee running again.

I think there's a voter fatigue that happened.

You know, we see him when someone's been in office for a number of years.

And I think there's a governor's fatigue, too.

Like you're doing the 4th of July parade for the seventh time, you know?

(all chuckle) You're just kind of like, okay, I have to go do this again.

We haven't, there's still other things coming down the pipe, you just said about the Washington Bridge, it's been kind of quiet for the past number of weeks.

But I think when that number comes out of how much it's gonna cost for the bridge to be rebuilt, or built, it's just gonna be raising the whole issues again.

I don't see why Dan McKee wants to run again.

- Right.

(Scott chuckling) Yeah.

- So, I do think on the Republican side, and we were talking about this earlier before the show, I'm gonna say I feel like Allan Fung is a great candidate, but he just has to run a different campaign.

- [Jim] Right.

- Like Allan Fung is a regular- - [Jim] But would he do it a third time?

- He might not do it a third time, but Allan Fung was a great mayor for the city of Cranston, did a lot of great things for the city.

He was a regular guy, talked to people out there, was saying, "Here's what I'm doing."

He raised property taxes, but sent a letter to the people saying, "Here's why I'm raising it."

And he put the city in a good financial shape.

If he takes that same approach to the state of Rhode Island, he can win.

But he cannot be linked to any of the national politics.

- Well isn't that the problem?

That's what happened in the Seth Magaziner race, right.

Magaziner, if he's being totally honest, his staff, on election day, they didn't think they were gonna win.

They really thought the Republicans were gonna take it, and then it just didn't materialize.

The red wave across the country didn't materialize.

- Yeah, they had a very good turnout operation.

And I think good campaign work.

I mean, Kate, George Nee's daughter, as you know, Katie Nee, did a fabulous job as the campaign manager there for Magaziner.

And I think a lot of people will tell you that had folks had her as their campaign manager, she might have actually done better, because she came pretty close to McKee, I think because of her debate performance, and her television was very good.

- Right, and a lot of money.

- Yes, of course.

Money, you know, it's like the mother's milk of politics, is the old joke.

But I think Mr. Roach has a real, you hit something about Fung.

I think had Fung run for governor last time, rather than- - Congress.

- Run for Congress, that after the Democratic primary, the party was split in half, that he might've actually won that race.

- Yeah.

- Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

- Of course.

- If you've been paying attention to Providence recently, or you're a Providence resident, you know the city is in financial distress, to say the least.

There was a court decision last year, they have to put a lot more money into the schools.

So now they're scrambling, Lisa, to see where the money's gonna come from.

And they've talked about exceeding the cap.

And that's at the general assembly right now.

But also outta left field comes this, we wanna put a surcharge on all tickets at venues over 800 people.

- And then they say it's only $2 a ticket, right?

Well when you're looking at a whole package, especially if people are coming from outta state, it's the taxes that we put on the hotels, it's the taxes that we put on the restaurants, then now we're gonna put tax on the event, and all of sudden- - [Jim] It's almost as much as the base price.

- Yeah, so all of a sudden it starts to add up.

So I think again, this coming in late in the session, and it's not just for the city of Providence, that other venues outside of Providence could be looked at, like the University of Rhode Island for their events.

So this, and Pawtucket with the stadium, and other places too.

So there's gonna be pushback.

So I don't see that happening.

I don't see that $2 per ticket event happening this session.

- Yeah, like high school football games could also be taxed- - Yeah, Cranston Stadium.

- Yeah.

- Right?

- Exactly.

It just- - Now it's not a mandate, but they could do it.

And hey.

- Right.

- Schools are strapped for money, right?

- Yeah, it just, to me, speaks of not really having a vision or a plan to solve structural problems.

And then also with just, we gotta bring business to Providence, the state in general.

But to me, I feel like that needs to be the focus, and stop putting such burden on just regular, everyday taxpayers.

It just seems completely unfair and without vision.

- Scotty?

- Yeah, the tax cap at 4%, they're not the only ones busting it.

If you look, Warren, Block Island, Middletown, there are other communities that are doing this.

But in Providence, I still think you have to look at what, and this is one of Buddy Cianci's legacies, is the pension system.

And that's a serious problem.

I mean, it was almost, one thing.

Link Chafee was right about when Governor Raimondo, then Governor Raimondo, Treasurer Raimondo, decided to go after the state pension problem.

Well, that was an easy kind of low hanging fruit.

It wasn't really all that bad off, but the locals were awful.

And you look around some of these local, particularly police and fire.

- Warwick's in tough shape.

- Warwick's in tough shape, West Warwick, you have Providence.

I mean, when Buddy came in, it was like 59%, the second time.

- Yeah.

- When he came in, it was 59%, I believe, funded.

And then when he left, it was something like 19 or 20.

It's just- - I think the problem with Providence is that, so they say, Mayor Smiley says this is a one time- - Yeah.

- You know, let us exceed it 7-8% one time.

But that, he's gotta come up with that 15, 17 million every year.

So where are they gonna go next year?

Now he is talking about some trimming and cuts.

- Right.

- And he says, "If we don't do this, we're gonna have to do this."

But you always hear the revenue first, and not the cutting.

- Right.

So I think right now, it's maybe a bandaid, you know, just to get 'em through the next year to figure it out.

But I do see the general assembly approving it.

- You mean the $2?

- Not the $2.

- Oh, the cap.

- The cap.

- The cap.

- I see them doing that.

- Yeah.

I think probably, it's- - When you have the mayor and the whole city council asking for it, why would the general assembly say no?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Besides the budget, anything you have your eye on as we head down the stretch at the general assembly?

- It's very rare that Pat Crowley and myself find ourselves on- - Wait a minute.

- The same side.

- Stop the presses.

- Of an issue.

- Really?

- But- - Pat Crowley, who's the head, he succeeded Jordan E- - Yeah, yeah.

- As AFL-CIO.

- AFL-CIO.

- Right.

- Yeah.

I am for this 3% tax on those making over $625,000, because I really do think the state does need an infusion of cash, and this would estimate around $190 million for the budget.

And I just feel like on lower income taxpayers, they're gonna feel the burden much more than some of our higher income workers.

And I feel like it'll be, it will be something good for the state - Counterpoint?

- Yeah, I think I just, you know, Don, usually I agree with you.

(all chuckle) I think I'm gonna have to push back on a couple reasons for this.

One, 'cause I think it's counterintuitive that we're trying to keep primary docs in the state of Rhode Island, but then we're gonna raise their income tax, you know, so that's one thing.

And we wanna keep companies like Hasbro, or attract companies like Hasbro, to the state, and then we're gonna raise the income tax.

So I almost see it to be counterintuitive to what we wanna be doing to move the state forward.

- Yeah, but where are they gonna go?

Massachusetts, where they have the millionaires tax, which has brought in, by the way, a ton of money.

- Florida - 2.6 billion.

- Florida.

- We're not in Massachusetts.

- They moved to Florida.

You know, John Hazen White Jr., and Alan Hassenfeld, are Florida residents.

- Well, people- - And I've said this many times, and they take their money with them.

They vote with their feet because they can do that.

- They're very wealthy.

But the fact is that in Massachusetts, why is Massachusetts bringing in so much money, like 2.6 billion, way more than they thought they would get from their millionaire income tax?

- But if you go with that, Don, so let's say they do that this year.

So then what do you do next year when the budget gets even worse, and you're not looking again at the cutting side?

If they cut 2 or 3 or 4% first, until all the department directors, you gotta do it, there's no question, you gotta do it.

Pull a Trump, you know, there's gonna be consequences, right?

(all chuckle) - Right.

- And then all of a sudden, corrections is over by $50 million.

Well, that's the way it goes.

If you did that and said, "We're still in the hole, let's raise money," I'd feel better about that as a taxpayer.

- Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that this is the end all be all.

It's more of a bandaid.

But again, this is why I say with the McKee administration, they haven't really done anything, because there's not a vision or overall plan.

I do think you have to make cuts in several areas within different departments in the budget.

But, in lieu of that, if we don't do this, then it's going to fall on the regular working class person who can't afford a 3% potential increase.

Like the property tax increase for Providence is going to hit those people whose houses have risen in price a lot, and their salaries haven't.

So for me, I feel like we've gotta share the burden, or to use a phrase that one of the $2 tax increase general assembly folks said, we've gotta diversify our revenue streams.

(all chuckling) - One of the big problems, though, I have to jump in right here, is that the federal government, I mean who knows, it's so unpredictable what's going on in Washington.

- Everyday.

- But nonetheless, as far as healthcare goes, and some other things, they're not going to be giving us the kind of Medicaid money and Medicare money that people are used to.

And a lot- - So the gap widens.

- Yes, a lot of people think Medicaid is all kids.

Well children, poor children, are cheap to cover.

The big money that costs a lot of money in Medicaid is about 65, 70% of it goes to nursing homes for older folks.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- And that's gonna be a real problem.

One of the problems with government at every level is that politicians are really reluctant to say, to make that tough decision that we're not gonna do this anymore, and we're not gonna have this program.

We're not gonna do it.

Because once you do something, there's a clientele in it.

You know, do you want come off summer basketball?

It doesn't cost that much.

And people keep going on, and once, you know, once a billionaire here, or a billion there, a millionaire here, a million there.

- It's real money.

- Yeah.

It adds up.

But I think that you've got a point, and Jim has a point, too, that we always hear why we need more money, and we don't have people saying, "Okay, I think we're gonna freeze hiring.

I think we're gonna do some things that, travel," I mean, there's some easy things you can do.

- The budget's up 40%, Scotty.

It's unsustainable.

- You can't- - Where are we gonna be two, three, four years out?

The out years?

- You can't do that.

- You know, it's been funny, we've been hearing over and over, "We don't have a revenue," you know, "A spending problem," what is it?

Revenue- - We don't have a revenue problem.

It's a spending problem.

- A spending problem.

- That's what we say.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, and I remember John, do you remember John Robitaille when he ran for governor back in the, what was it, 2010?

- Mm-hmm.

- He was saying- - With Link Chafee and Ken Block and Frank Caprio?

- Yeah, so imagine if we really looked at the budget back then and really determined is all the money being spent the way it should be, where we would be today?

- I looked at, so I did a story on the general assembly spending, just the assembly itself, and there were like $50 million at the time.

And I did an analysis on the state budget, and at that time, this was before COVID, it went up about a billion dollars every four years.

Not simultaneously with each governor, but about that time period.

And if you think about that, that seemed unsustainable.

And then the COVID money came in, and I thought, we talked about this last week, I thought once the COVID money flushed out, then the budget would go back to 11 or 12 billion.

We're at $14 billion.

- Well, one of the things that I can't quite figure out is the schools, as we know, schools are a huge, for every municipality in the state, schools are their number one cost.

And this certain thing with state aid, if they don't have that, it's gonna be serious problem, 'cause that hits the local property tax payer that you were talking about, Don.

- And they write in, they've eliminated the car tax.

Give them props that that- - That's right.

- You know, you remember some governors went after that, right?

- That's right.

- Suspended it.

- Yeah.

- So that's written in every year, and that's a big line item.

- There hasn't been a broad based tax increase in Rhode Island since the Sundlun administration.

After the credit union crisis.

- They always say that, Scotty, and then Gina Raimondo tries to double the amount to go to Misquamicut.

All we have is the beach.

What are you doing?

(all chuckle) They always, they nickel and dime you to death on the beach.

- Sure.

- Right.

- Right?

- And then they muddle through on the budget.

- Right, no broad base.

They take the tobacco money all of a sudden, you know, the revenue looks a little bit better, but nobody's looking at the long term.

- Yeah.

- What else, down the stretch in the general assembly are you looking at?

- I gotta bring up RIPTA.

- Sure.

- You know, just because- - RIPTA.

- It's an issue that really impacts people trying to get to work, and we want people to work in Rhode Island.

So it's, we need to figure this out.

And I think they wanted to move some of the gas tax money, and then the DOT said, "No, you can't move money out of the DOT to RIPTA for this."

What I can't understand is why can't we put people in the room, and let's just get this figured out?

You know, this is such an important issue for- - Somebody had a suggestion to take out a bond for operating expenses.

The one thing that Link Chafee did that was right was to start pay as you go.

'Cause remember we used to take out bonds for transportation stuff?

- Yeah.

- So this law, so then what happens when the bond money runs out?

- Right.

- You can't do that.

- No, that's not a- - You gotta get to the root of the problem.

- That's right.

- Actually, her guy, Almond, was the first guy to start really talking about that.

- Yeah.

- To do- - Take it off the credit card.

- Paygo, the Paygo, yeah.

'Cause it's, you know.

- What about RIPTA?

It's just been, dare I say the phrase that I hate, "The redheaded stepchild"?

But it has been over the years, nobody knows what to do about it.

- Exactly.

And I think because the top folks don't take RIPTA, in a lot of respects, that it doesn't get the light shined on it, and it doesn't have the support that it should have.

And I hate to say that, but it's always kind of been that way.

- Yeah, that's true.

- Any thoughts on RIPTA?

- You know, thinking about RIPTA, I just think about, just in general in Rhode Island.

I said this earlier, if it makes common sense, we don't do it in Rhode Island.

(all chuckle) - Yeah.

- And so with RIPTA, we just, we've been trying to figure this out for decades, and I don't think we have the overall infrastructure of like, what does public transportation, what should it look like in Rhode Island?

Where should the hubs be?

- Yeah.

- Where are businesses that wanna bring in people from the other communities, like Boston.

You know, many people commute to Boston.

I commuted to Boston for 20 years, and so we don't have that kind of thought process in Rhode Island, and I think until we make RIPTA like a real service, then we'll just continue to see what we've been seeing.

- Scotty, it's a full Rhode Island.

- It is.

- You take RIPTA to go to your primary doctor, and he's not there.

(all laugh) Alright, we only have a couple minutes left.

Let's go to a outrage.

You wanna finish the thought on that?

- Yeah, quickly.

I mean, one of the things about Rhode Island, I think is one of the biggest shibboleths there is, is that if you, we're so small, we can put everybody in one room and solve the problems.

- Exactly.

- Yeah.

- But the problem is they all hate each other once you put 'em in that room.

- Outrage or kudo this week, what do you have?

- Outrage.

I really think that what's happening at the National Administration with President Trump and his minions is going after universities.

They're a real strength.

And you look at how many jobs, Harvard and Brown, and these universities, and the research, this helps everyone.

I mean, open heart surgery was pretty much developed at Harvard Medical School in Mass General.

And I just don't understand.

Obviously he's made it personal.

There's something he doesn't like, the Pritzker family, he supposedly hates them.

They did a hotel deal years ago, and didn't work.

So he's mad at Penny Pritzker.

- All right.

What do you have this week, outrage or kudo?

- I have an outrage.

- Go ahead.

- Potholes.

- Oh.

(Scott laughs) - I am just, it's almost June, right?

So we've gone through the winter, and there are places where I drive that I have to memorize the road, oh, there's a pothole coming up, so make sure that you swerve over here.

And it's not just the roads, it's the shopping centers too.

So I don't know if you've been in shopping centers, I mean there's some craters in there that you have to watch out.

- Yeah, family of four living in your nearest pothole.

- Yeah.

So we talk so much about bridges.

We should move to the roads, too.

- Right, that's good.

Don, what do you have?

You have the last minute.

- So I have a kudos, and it's to the people who work at Pathways in Warwick, where my son has attended for about six years.

He graduated last week.

- Saw that.

- And so people who kind of serve people who have special needs, this is just a kudos to you.

Thank you for everything that you do.

And people like me, parents of children who have special needs, just wanna say thank you.

- They're doing God's work, are they not?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

And you can imagine, and a lot of times, we've seen this with daycare and others, they're the most underpaid and underappreciated.

- [Don] Yeah, right.

- So I appreciate you bringing that up.

Six years, that's amazing.

- Yeah.

That's good.

Okay folks, it is a quick 30 minutes.

Thank you for joining us, Don.

Great to see you.

And Scott and Lisa.

If you can't catch us Friday at seven or Sunday at noon, we archive all of our shows at ripbs.org/lively.

Also, check us out on the station's YouTube channel.

That's RIPBS.

Just go to YouTube, and you can look for "Lively" there.

We're also on Facebook and Twitter, and wherever you get your favorite podcast, take that along with you.

We really are heading into the heart of the legislative session.

We will know a lot more next week, and in the following weeks.

So come back here for a full recap of the week's events and analysis from our stellar panel next week, as "A Lively Experiment" continues, we hope you have a great weekend.

(bright upbeat music) - [Announcer] "A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by- - Hi, I'm John Hazen White Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

I'm a proud supporter of this great program and Rhode Island PBS.