JIM: A LEAKDRAFT DECISION HAS RD AND OTHER STATES LOOKING AT ABORTION AND SIX CANDIDATES FOR GOVERNOR GATHER ON STAGE FOR THE FIRST TIME TOGETHER.

>> THE LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> HI.

FOR OVER 30 YEARS, A LIVELY EXPERIMENT HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF POLITICAL ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I'M A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

JIM: JOINING US ON THE PANEL, CORPORATE COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT AND FORMER NEWS ANCHOR DAVE LAYMAN, JIM VINCENT, PRESIDENT OF THE PROVIDENCE BRANCH OF THE NAACP, AND FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE DAN REILLY.

HELLO AND WELCOME.

I AM JIM PUMMELED.

AN UNPRECEDENTED LEAK OF A DRAFT DECISION THAT WOULD ABOLISH FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FOR ABORTION HAS REKINDLED THE DEBATE SINCE ROE V. WADE.

AND IT SHINES A LIGHT IN A 2019 LAW PASSED IN RHODE ISLAND THAT MAKE SURE THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN THE SUPREME COURT WOMEN AND ROAD I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO ABORTION -- WOMEN IN RHODE ISLAND HAVE ACCESS TO ABORTION.

I HAVE HEARD THERE HAVE BEEN LEAKS HERE AND THERE.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

DAN: IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THERE HAVE BEEN HINTS.

IN THE ORIGINAL ROE V. WADE CASE, A CLERK LEAKED BACKGROUND INFORMATION THE DAY BEFORE THE DECISION WAS TO BE RELEASED.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED IN THE COURT'S HISTORY AND LEADS TO UNCOMFORTABLE QUESTIONS.

ON THE ONE HAND, WHAT LAW ACTUALLY KEEPS THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL VERSUS HOW MUCH OF THIS IS BASED ON TRADITION, BUT COURT CLERKS AND STAFF HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

WHEN YOU WORK FOR THE JUDICIARY, YOU'RE WORKING FOR IN -- FOR AN INDEPENDENT BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

YOUR LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE JUSTICES YOU ARE SERVING.

IT WILL BE FASCINATING TO SEE IF THIS GETS INVESTIGATED AND THERE ARE QUESTIONS AS TO WHAT QUESTIONS CAN BE COMPELLED FROM COURT STAFF.

JIM: DO YOU THINK THEY WILL FIND OUT?

DAN: THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE AND IT WILL POTENTIALLY BE RESOLVED BY THE SUPREME COURT.

INSTITUTIONALLY, THEY HAVE A LOT AT STAKE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THEY CAN JUST WHITEWASH OR HOPE IT GOES AWAY, BECAUSE THIS COULD HAPPEN IF THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT.

AND IF THEY DO NOT RESOLVE THIS NOW, THAT CERTAINLY WILL BE THE CASE.

JIM: YOU WOULD THINK DIGITAL FINGERPRINTS, WAYS TO FIGURE IT OUT.

>> ALSO, THERE'S A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE, PROBABLY IN THE VICINITY OF 25 AT THE MOST, THAT WOULD HAVE HAD ACCESS TO THIS AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER, SO THE FOCUS IS -- IT IS LIKE YOU WILL FIND A NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK BUT A VERY SMALL HAYSTACK.

>> I ALSO WONDER, LEGALLY, AND THIS IS THE FIRST THING I THOUGHT OF WHEN IT LEAKED, COULD THEY REQUIRE ANYBODY WHO HAD ACCESS TO THIS, COULD THEY DO A POLYGRAPH?

COULD THEY REUIRE A POLYGRAPH LEGALLY?

>> THAT HAVE BEEN REQUESTED BY CHIEF JUSTICE BEFORE AND IT ENDED UP NOT HAPPENING.

>> HEY, DOES NOT HOLD UP IN COURT.

>> I BELIEVE IT WAS IN ROE AND IT ENDED UP NOT HAPPENING WHEN THE CLERK CAME FORWARD, WHEN THE CHIEF JUSTICE BASICALLY SAID THAT WOULD HAPPEN, THREATENED THAT, THE CLERK ADMITTED TO RELEASING BACKGROUND INFORMATION TO A REPORTER.

IT IS POSSIBLE.

YOU HAVE 36 CLERKS, NINE JUSTICES AND A HADFUL OF ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF.

IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO FIND OUT WHO WOULD HAVE DONE THIS BUT HEY HAVE A RESPONSIBILIO FIND OUT WHO SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> THE LEAK OBVIOUSLY WAS UNPRECEDENTED AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, IT HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP AS FAR AS BEING A MAIN PART OF THE STORY ALMOST.

THE REAL STORY IS THE FACT THAT THE SUPREME COURT IS ON THE EDGE OF OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE POTENTIALLY.

THERE'S STRONG EVIDENCE GIVEN WHAT JUDGE ALITO WROTE THAT THIS IS A THING THAT WILL HAPPEN.

ALTHOUGH I KNOW THAT THE PERSON WILL PROBABLY BE CAUGHT, WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHO IT BENEFITS, WHY THEY DO IT.

I TEND TO THINK IT MIGHT BENEFIT THE DEMOCRATS DOWN THE ROAD BECAUSE IT WILL ENERGIZE THEIR BASE.

IF IT WAS SOMEONE LEANING REPUBLICAN WHO DID IT, I THINK THEY SHOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT.

>> REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A SURPRISE TO ANYONE FOLLOWING DOBBS CASE.

>> AND IF YOU LISTENED TO THE ORAL ARGUMENTS.

>> RIGHT, AT ORAL ARGUMENT, THERE WERE FIVE JUSTICES NOT TALKING ABOUT WHETHER TO OVERTURN ROE BUT HOW IT COULD BE OVERTURNED.

SO THE GENERAL STORY COMING OUT WAS NOT LOST ON REPORTERS OR ON CAPITOL HILL.

THE STORY COMING OUT WAS THAT THIS IS POISED TO HAPPEN.

EVERYONE ASSUMED IT WOULD HAPPEN MUCH CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, SO I DON'T KNOW WHO THE TIMING HELPS THE MOST.

>> THE TROUBLING PART TO ME IS IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE TESTIMONY WHEN THESE VARIOUS SUPREME COURT NOMINEES, THEN-NOMINEES, WERE ASKED THE ABORTION QUESTION, ALMOST ALL OF THEM SEEM TO HAVE ESSENTIALLY LIED.

>> IT IS SETTLED LAW, SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WELL, THEY ARE GOOD WITH WORDS.

MOST JUDGES ARE BY THAT POINT IN THEIR CAREER, BUT THERE'S ALSO NO PRECEDENT WHERE THE TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE OR THE SENATE IS BINDING.

SONYA SOTOMAYOR HELLER WAS SETTLED LAW AND HAD A JOINT DISSENT AND SAID HELLER SHOULD BE OVERTURNED IN THE SUBSEQUENT CASE WHEN I CAME UP AND NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THAT REALLY, AND IT WAS NOT REALLY NEWS WHEN IT HAPPENED EITHER.

>> AS YOU SAID, IT IS NOT BINDING, BUT THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIED TO, THOUGH SENATORS, ARE UPSET.

>> SUSAN COLLINS.

>> SUSAN COLLINS AND A FEW OTHERS ARE UPSET AND WE WILL SEE HOW THAT PLAYS OUT.

>> THE LARGER ISSUE, AND YOU LOOK AT THE MAP, ALL THE LARGE NEWS OUTLETS ARE DOING THIS.

WE LIVE IN BLUE RHODE ISLAND WHERE THEY PASSED A LAW TO CODIFIED HERE IN 2019.

THERE ARE MANY STATES WITH TRIGGER LAWS, THAT THE MINUTE THE FEDERAL DECISION COMES DOWN, AND THE SAD PART TO ME IS, HOWEVER YOU FEEL ABOUT ABORTION, IT WILL NOT OUTLAW ABORTION.

I MEAN, A WOMAN WHO WANTS -- DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE A CHILD WILL NOT HAVE THAT CHILD, SO THEY WILL FIGURE OUT A WAY BUT IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE YOU THINK OF THOSE RED STATES NOW.

>> WELL, PRIMARILY RED STATES, THAT HAVE THE TRIGGER LAW.

>> THERE ARE ABOUT 25 IF YOU ADD THEM ALL TOGETHER THAT ARE GOING TO PROBABLY HAVE THIS SORT OF LAW THAT DOES NOT ALLOW IT IN THAT PARTICULAR STATE, SO THAT MAKES ME WONDER, AND I SAW A STORY LAST NIGHT ON THE NEWS THAT YOU AND I HAD TALKED ABOUT VIA EMAIL, THIS IS GOING TO CREATE KIND OF AN INTERESTING DYNAMIC NOW WITH THE BLUE STATES, OR THE STATES THAT DON'T HAE THESE RESTRICTIONS.

THEY ARE GOING TO BE INUNDATED CAN AFFORD TO MAKE THE TRIP, TO ANOTHER STATE.

NOW, IF YOU ARE IN MASSACHUSETTS OR RHODE ISLAND, THAT WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU ARE A WOMAN IN TEXAS WHO MAY HAVE TO GO SOME DISTANCE AND MAKE PLANS TO DO THAT, AND THEN THE RECEIVING STATE THAT'S ALLOWING ABORTIONS, THEY WILL THEN BE OVERWHELMED.

>> GAVIN NEWSOM HAS ALREAD SAID THE DOORS OPEN IN CALIFORNIA.

>> THE FACT IS WHO TYPICALLY HAS AN ABORTION IS USUALLY POOR WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR, WHATEVER, AND NEWSFLASH, THERE ARE POOR WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR WHO LIVE IN THOSE STATES AND THE NAACP CAME OUT WITH A STATEMENT, THE PRESIDENT, ERIK JOHNSON, SAYING THEY HAVE TAKEN OUR VOTING RIGHTS AND NOW COMING AFTER OUR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

WHAT WILL THEY GO AFTER NEXT?

MAYBE GAY MARRIAGE, INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE?

IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE AND I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO LOSE SIGHT OF THAT.

>> BUT YOU WONDER ON THIS CASE SPECIFICALLY, EVERYONE IS VIEWING THIS AS SOMETHING THAT WILL APPLY NATIONWIDE.

COULD THEY FASHION SOMETHING THAT JUST APPLIES TO MISSISSIPPI OR IS THIS A TEST CASE FOR ABORTION NATIONALLY?

>> JUSTICE ALITO'S OPINION WOULD SUGGEST A MAJORITY OF THE COURT IS POISED TO MAKE THIS THE CASE TO OVERTURN ROE.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS HAS REALLY BEEN TRYING TO THREAD THE NEEDLE ON CASES AND TAKE A MORE INCREMENTALIST APPROACH TO MOTION ISSUES -- TO MOST ISSUES, NOT JUST THIS ONE, AND I THINK YOU WOULD LIKE TO FABRICATE A MORE NUANCED RESPONSE TAILORED TO THE MISSISSIPPI LAW.

NOW, THAT WOULD ALLOW A RESTRICTION THAT OTHERWIE WAS NEVER ALLOWED TO BE UPHELD IN THE MISSISSIPPI CASE AT 15 WEEKS BUT IT WOULD NEVERTHELESS NOT BE A WHOLESALE REPUDIATION OF ROE.

FOR THE FIVE JUSTICES ARE HEADING IS TO A COMBINATION OF THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET RID OF ROE AND WE WANT THIS TO BE THE FINAL TIME WE HAVE TO RULE ON THIS ISSUE.

WHEN YOU READ ALITO'S OPINION, HE GOES INTO DETAIL HOW FOR SUCH SETTLED LAW, WE ARE CONSTANTLY HAVING TO REVISIT THIS, AND STATES ARE CONSTANTLY TEEING UP CHALLENGES BECAUSE WE'VE CREATED A BURDEN TEST THAT WE NEVER DEFINED, AND UNTIL WE FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT IS AND TRULY GET INTO THE SHOES OF LEGISLATORS OR GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF REGULATING ABORTION ALTOGETHER, THIS WON'T EVER STOP AND HAS CREATED COUNTLESS PROBLEMS FOR THE INSTITUTION.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHY THEY WANT OUT OF THIS BUSINESS.

>> AND THE IRONY IS, ACCORDING TO POLLS, ONLY 19% OF AMERICANS ARE IN FAVOR OF GETTING RID OF ABORTIONS COMPLETELY.

SO TALK ABOUT THE TAILWAGGING THE DOG.

AMERICANS OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT -- >> ABOUT 19%, YOU CAN POLL AND EVERY ONE WILL COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT PLURALITY.

SO I THINK WHEN YOU ACTUALLY ASK PEOPLE TO RESPOND TO QUESTIONS OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW VIA POLL, LIKE ANY POLL, YOU WILL GET ISSUES.

>> I MAY TAKE ISSUE WITH YOUR TERM PLURALITY.

EVERY POLL I HAVE SEEN, A PLURALITY MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE 50%, YOU HAVE MORE THAN EVERYBODY ELSE.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, EVERY POLL I HAVE SEEN SHOWS A MAJORITY, MAY BE ANYWHERE FROM 60% TO 70% OR 80% FAVOR SOME FORM OF ABORTION RIGHT, SO THAT'S NOT A PLURALITY.

THAT IS A MAJORITY.

>> NO, IT IS A PLURLITY OF PEOPLE WHO ALSO WANT SOME FORM OF RESTRICTION.

THERE ARE TWO SIDES OF THAT.

IF YOU SAY YOU APPROVE IT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU ALSO SAY YOU DISAPPROVE IN OTHERS, SO THAT SHOWS TWO RESULTS.

>> THE OTHER THING IS RHODE ISLAND -- I REMEMBER TALKING ABOUT THIS YEARS AGO WHEN BRETT KAVANAUGH WAS NOMINATED AND SEATED AND IMMEDIATELY IN RHODE ISLAND THEY MOVED, AND I THOUGHT WHAT IS THE RUSH YEAR, BUT IN RETROSPECT IT MAKES SENSE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS COURAGEOUS ON ONE LEGISLATOR'S PART, GETTING A LOT OF GRIEF FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, TO BRING THAT TO THE FLOOR, NEVER GOT OUT OF COMMITTEE BEFORE, CODIFYING THIS IN RHODE ISLAND.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, AMY CONEY BARRETT BECOMES ANOTHER -- YOU KNOW, SHE'S ANOTHER ONE OF THE CONSERVATIVES, SO I THINK NOW HOW CRUCIAL THAT WAS FOR THOSE WHO FAVOR ABORTION RIGHTS HERE, THAT 2019 LAW.

>> IT WAS CRUCIAL AND I THINK US ALONG WITH FOUR OTHER NEW ENGLAND STATES NOW HAVE SOMEWHAT OF A PROTECTION IN TERMS OF THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE.

HOWEVER, THE PEOPLE IN RHODE ISLAND HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE RHODE ISLAND SUPREME COURT'S DECISION -- ABOUT APPEALING THE RHODE ISLAND SUPREME COURT'S DECISION TO THE SUPREME COURT.

>> IT HAS UPHELD AND MAYBE NOW YOU TAKE IT TO THE SUPREME COURT BECAUSE IT IS MORE FAVORABLE.

>> AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT SO IT MIGHT NOT BE OVER YET.

>> IT JUST FLEW OUT OF MY HEAD.

>> I WOULD SAY, IN 2019, THAT LEGISLATOR WAS RESPONDING TO THE PRESSURE OF A POLITICAL CO-OP.

I KNOW I SERVED UNDER HIM AND HE IS A GOOD GUY BUT I WOULDN'T SAY THAT WAS AN ACT OF COURAGE.

HE VOTED AGAINST THE BILL ON THE FLOOR.

>> WELL -- >> IT STILL GOT KILLED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH >> AND HE LOST REELECTION BECAUSE OF THE ISSUE THAT CAUSED.

SO THAT WAS NOT REALLY READING THE TEA LEAVES AND PLAYING A MENTAL CHESS GAME.

THAT WAS CAVING TO LONG-STANDING PRESSURE FROM THE PROGRESSIVES AND TO THAT -- AND THAT DIFFUSE PRESSURE O OTHER ISSUES THAT GAVE HIM MORE WIGGLE ROOM.

>> I THINK ASIDE FROM WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HERE, ONE OF THE BIG SUBPLOTS TO THIS IS WHAT IMPACT WILL THIS HAVE ON THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS?

I THINK THIS IS -- IF I HAD TO GUESS, I THINK THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO LEAKED IT WHO WAS OUTRAGED BY THIS AND WAS DOING IT TO MOTIVATE THE DEMOCRATS AND WHATEVER SUPPORTERS THERE WOULD BE TO GET OFF THE COUCH, MAKE THIS A BIG DEAL, AND THIS IS ALSO AN ISSUE THAT WILL PLAY VERY WELL WITH A LOT OF MODERATE REPUBLICAN WHO -- REPUBLICANS WHO ARE PRO-CHOICE BUT MAY NOT LIKE THE DEMOCRATIC PLATFORM.

>> TO HAVE A LOT ELSE TO GET TO AND I THINK WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN WEEKS TO COME.

HISTORY MADE LAST WEEK WHEN THE FIRST SUPERINTENDENT OF COLOR WAS APPOINTED TO THE RHODE ISLAND -- APPOINTED AS COLONEL OF THE RHODE ISLAND STATE POLICE.

YOU HAVE KNOWN DARNELL WEAVER FOR A LONG TIME.

THE THING I LIKE ABOUT HIS STORY IS HE'S A RHODE ISLAND GUY, WORKED HIS WAY UP THROUGH THE RANKS, RESPECTED BY ALL, SO THE FACT THAT HE'S A MAN OF COLOR IS ONE THING OF MANY GOING IN HIS FAVOR.

>> IT IS ONE THING IN HIS FAVOR BUT IT IS A CRUCIAL THING BECAUSE WE ARE LIVING IN A POST GEORGE FLOYD WORLD, WHERE THERE'S COMMUNITY MISTRUST OF POLICE, AND LARGELY, FOR GOOD REASONS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT BEFORE.

YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS SOME LIVED EXPERIENCES.

THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING WHY PEOPLE MIGHT NOT WANT TO EMBRACE THE POLICE AS MUCH.

AND HE DID WORK HIS WAY UP.

I REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS A CORPORAL, TO SERGEANT, LIEUTENANT, CAPTAIN, MAJOR, LIEUTENANT COLONEL, NUMBER TWO IN THE DEPARTMENT, MARINE CORPS VETERAN, PERFECT EYE FOR THE JOB.

HE WILL DO GREAT THINGS.

HE IS NOT WITHOUT ISSUES IN TERMS OF RECRUITING AND OTHER THINGS THAT ALL STATES ARE GOING THROUGH, BUT AS PREDICTED, DARNELL WEAVER WILL BE THE SUPERINTENDENT.

>> IT IS NOT COLONEL STONE'S RIGHT ISLAND -- STONE BOSCO RHODE ISLAND STATE POLICE ANYMORE.

THEY ARE HAVING A HARD TIME RECRUITING, SO HE HAS TO THREAD THE NEEDLE BETWEEN BEING WELCOMING TO MINORITIES AND GETTING THEM READY FOR THAT ACADEMY.

>> THEY HAVE TO RECRUIT AND IT HAS TO BE APPEALED TO THOSE YOU ARE RECRUITING AND YOU HAVE TO BE SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH THE ACADEMY.

ONE THIRD OF THIS CURRENT CLASS I THINK HAS ALREADY WASHED OUT OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD SIGN.

THE RHODE ISLAND STATE POLICE, AND THIS HAS A HERITAGE UNLIKE ANY OTHER STATE POLICE IN ANY OTHER STATE WHERE I'VE COVERED THE NEWS, THIS IS A HIGHLY RESPECTED STATE POLICE, PROBABLY FIRST AMONG EQUALS.

IT SAID PROP -- IT HAS HAD PROBLEMS IN RECENT YEARS AND DARNELL HAS HIS HANDS FULL TRYING TO WORK THROUGH SOME OF THE RACIAL DIVIDES AND SOME OF THE MISSTEPS THAT SOME OF HIS PREDECESSORS HAVE HAD.

ONE CONCERN THAT I'VE HAD WITH THE STATE POLICE IS WE HAD COLONEL WALTER STONE, WHO IS A LEGEND IN THE STATE POLICE AND HE CERTAINLY HAD HIS PROBLEMS AS HE WAS HEADING OUT THE DOOR, BUT WE'VE HAD SUCH A SUCCESSION OF SUPERINTENDENTS IN THE STATE POLICE JUST IN THE LAST MAYBE 15 YEARS.

>> DOUGHERTY, PERRY, O'DONNELL, MANNING.

>> THAT'S A LOT OF SUPERINTENDENTS RUNNING THE MOST IMPORTANT POLICE AGENCY IN THE STATE.

>> THERE ARE A FEW ISSUES AT PLAY.

FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS TO COLONEL WEAVER, AND HE WILL DO AN EXCELLENT JOB, BUT HE HAS CHALLENGES, THE CHALLENGES LAW ENFORCEMENT FACE ANYWHERE AND THAT HE FACES IN PARTICULAR AT THE STATE POLICE.

WE DO A HORRIBLE JOB JUST GENERALLY RECRUITING AND WHEN IT COMES TO ALLOCATING MONEY EVERY YEAR.

IT IS ALWAYS, IF WE HAVE THE MONEY, MAYBE.

IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE CLASS, THEY CUT IT DOWN.

WE NEED A MORE CONSISTENT CADENCE OF BRINGING IN NEW TROOPERS AND THAT GOES FOR ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT ESPECIALLY THE STATE POLICE, AND THEY ALSO HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS AS AN AGENCY.

WE ARE A STATE IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM 1925 WHEN THEY WERE CHARTERED.

>> AND THEY ARE LOSING RECRUITS TO MASSACHUSETTS, WHICH IS UNHEARD OF.

I MEAN, IF YOU GOT A JOB WITH THE RHODE ISLAND STATE POLICE, YOU HIT THE JACKPOT.

>> IT WAS A CAREER.

THEY HAVE TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND ASK THEMSELVES QUESTIONS ABOUT MANDATORY RETIREMENT.

IT IS NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE BUT THAT PUTS SEVERE PRESSURE ON ROUTING -- ON RECRUITING AND THE WORKFORCE.

THEIR MISSION, WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

WHEN THEY WERE INCORPORATED INTO THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, THEY TOOK ON NEW RESPONSIBILITIES, CHANGING THE SPAN OF CONTROL FOR THE COLONEL, I THINK TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE STATE POLICE.

BUT HE IS UP TO THE JOB.

>> I AGREE, DAN.

THERE'S A LOT TO THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE PUBLIC SAFETY AND HAVE OTHER DIVISIONS WITHIN THE STATE THEY OVERSEE, SO MAYBE THERE CAN BE SOME ADJUSTMENTS TO HELP REALLY DO A GREAT JOB WITH THE STATE POLICE AS WELL AS MAKING SURE THE RECRUITING IS UP TO THE LEVELS THAT WE NEED THEM TO BE UP TO.

>> IN TERMS OF RESPONSIBILITIES, MAYBE LOOKING TO OTHER STATES.

>> SIX CANDIDATES RUNNING FROM DEATH RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, FIVE DEMOCRATS AND ONE REPUBLICAN -- RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, FIVE DEMOCRATS AND ONE REPUBLICAN, GATHERING, MODERATED BY SOMEONE YOU MAY HAVE SEEN FROM CHANNEL 12.

THE HEADLINE I THINK WAS MICKEY HELD HIS OWN AND DIDN'T GET PUMMELED.

THE FIRST IS HE TALKED POTENTIALLY ABOUT A SALES TAX CUT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT WERE THAT CAME OFF-THE-CUFF.

BUT I THOUGHT NOT EVERYBODY SAW THIS.

IT WAS NOT WIDELY PUBLICIZED, BUT THAT IS ONE OF THOSE FORUMS YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT THE HEADLINE.

>> UNLESS IT IS A GOOD HEADLINE, YOU KNOW?

>> LIKE A SALES TAX CUT.

>> I WAS VERY SURPRISED THAT THEY DIDN'T TAKE ON THE GOVERNOR, BECAUSE HE IS THE ONE TO BEAT THEORETICALLY.

>> BUT THAT WAS THE WAY THE FORUM WAS SET UP.

IT WAS NOT A DEBATE WHERE YOU COULD GO AFTER -- THAT WILL COME, BUT IT WAS REALLY STEPHANIE ASKING QUESTIONS, MAYBE PEOPLE WOULD RESPOND.

I GUESS THEY COULD IN THE RESPONSE.

>> THERE WAS THE OPPORTUNITY.

LET ME TELL YOU.

I HAVE DONE THESE FORMS FOR YEARS AND YOU CAN SET UP THE RULES ANYWAY YOU WANT TO, BUT THE DYNAMICS TAKE PLACE WHEN THE CAMERA LIGHT GOES ON.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT IT WAS AN INTERESTING SESSION.

YOU KIND OF GOT A SENSE OF THE PEOPLE.

I THOUGHT THE ONE BIG MISTAKE THAT WAS MADE WAS BUYING THE REPUBLICAN, KALUS.

WHEN SHE WAS ASKED, AS EVERYBODY ELSE WAS, WHAT POLITICAL FIGURES DO YOU MOST ADMIRE, AND SHE SAID RON DESANTIS, GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, I AM THINKING, YOU ARE IN RHODE ISLAND.

YOU ARE NOT IN FLORIDA.

YOU ARE NOT IN GEORGIA.

YOU ARE NOT IN TEXAS.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, BECAUSE SHE MAY DO THAT TO GARNER SUPPORT WITH THE REPUBLICANS BUT SHE'S ALREADY GOING TO HAVE THAT.

SHE HAS GOT TO WIN A GENERAL ELECTION AND RON DESANTIS IS NOT EXACTLY THE PATRON SAINT OF RHODE ISLAND.

>> THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE HAD YO WANT SINCE SHE ANNOUNCED.

ASHLEY KALUS IS ON THE AIR, HAS A LOT OF ADS GOING ON, AND HAS THE ABILITY -- INTERESTINGLY, I THOUGHT HELENA FOULKES WOULD BE THE FIRST ON AIR, AND NOW ASHLEY KALUS, MAYBE SHE LIGHTENS UP OVER THE SUMMER AND COMES BACK BUT SHE HAS THE ADVANTAGE OF FIVE PEOPLE PUMMELING EACH OTHER.

>> EXACTLY, AND DON KATERI HAD THE SAME DYNAMIC, AND WENT ON AIR I THINK IN FEBRUARY OF 2002 WHEN HE FIRST RAN.

SHE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO OWN THE FIELD RIGHT NOW.

YOU WILL HAVE THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY.

IT WILL ONLY GET MORE HEATED.

YOU HAVE WELL, WELL-KNOWN CANDIDATES.

THAT WILL NOT SETTLE ANYTIME SOON.

SO, YOU KNOW, ASHLEY KALUS HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIND HERSELF.

HAS BEEN MAKING THE ROUNDS, SHOWING UP TO EVENTS.

SHE'S A FIRST-TIME CANDIDATE.

GETTING OUT THE DOOR IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE MORE OF A CHALLENGE FOR HER THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY EXISTING CANDIDATES OR OFFICEHOLDERS, BUT SHE IS OFF TO A STRONG START AND WE WILL SEE HOW SHE GOES THROUGH THE SUMMER.

AGAIN, THIS RACE WILL HEAT UP IN THE FALL, AND FOR HER, SHE WILL HAVE TO STAY WITH PAID MEDIA IN THE MEANTIME JUST FOR OXYGEN BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATIC RACE WILL MAKE ALL THE NEWS WHETHER SHE CAN GENERATE A HEADLINE OR NOT.

IT IS OUT OF HER CONTROL AT THIS POINT COULD -- AT THIS POINT.

>> I THOUGHT THE BIGGEST MISTAKE WAS SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT BILL OF RIGHTS WAS.

I DON'T THINK SHE EVER HEARD OF IT.

SO I THINK THAT -- >> THAT'S ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES -- WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

DON KATERI, IT DEBRIS, ANOTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE, ALL RHODE ISLAND -- DON KATERI, ED DUPREE, AND ANOTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE, WERE ALL RHODE ISLAND HOMEGROWN.

>> KALUS WAS ESTABLISHED IN RHODE ISLAND, ALTHOUGH THERE MIGHT BE A DIFFERENCE THERE.

THE DIFFERENCE WAS THEY ALL AGREED IN TERMS OF REPRODUCTION -- THE REPRODUCTION PRIVACY ACT.

WHAT WAS INTERESTING IS HOW THEY REACTED TO THE 1% OF WAGE EARNERS GETTING TAXED WITH GORBEA AGREEING WITH BROWN AND MUÑOZ THAT THAT SHOULD HAPPEN, WITH KALUS AND FOULKES AND THE GOVERNOR DISAGREEING.

>> THAT IS TOUGH WHEN YOU HAVE A SURPLUS.

I KNOW THEY TALKED ABOUT THE STRUCTURAL DEFICITS, BUT WE ARE NOT.

.

>> I AGREE.

EVEN THOUGH $1 BILLION IS A LOT OF MONEY, THE ECONOMIC PROMISE INSTITUTE SAID THAT 1%, TAXING THOSE PEOPLE, WOULD GENERATE $144 MILLION.

THE RHODE ISLAND FOUNDATION SAID HALF OF THAT $1 BILLION SHOULD BE SPENT ON HOUSING AND I AGREE, BUT THE GOVERNOR WILL ONLY SPEND -- NOT ONLY, BUT ONLY $250 MILLION BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PRESSING NEEDS.

SO TAKE THAT $144 MILLION, TARGET IT TO THE GAP BETWEEN 250 MILLION DOLLARS AND $500 MILLION AND TARGETED FOR HOUSING BECAUSE WE ARE IN A CRISIS.

THERE'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY TO DO ALL THE THINGS WE NEED DONE EVEN THOUGH IT'S A LOT OF MONEY WITH THE SURPLUS.

LET'S LOOK AT WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

>> I DO NOT THINK THERE IS ANY APPETITE FOR THAT IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY NOW.

>> NO, AND THEY ALSO REFUSED TO TAKE MONEY FOR DEDICATED PURPOSES BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HOW THEY CAN BALANCE BUDGETS EASILY.

I AGREE IT IS A POLICY PRIORITY TO ALLOCATE FUNDING, EVEN FROM A NEW REVENUE SOURCE, TO SOMETHING LIKE HOUSING.

FORTUNATELY, IT WILL MEET A BUZZ SAW IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, NOT BECAUSE IT IS BAD BUT BECAUSE IT WILL SET A BAD PRECEDENT.

>> GOVERNOR MCKEE HAS THE MICROPHONE EVERY DAY.

WHAT DO DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES HAVE TO DO TO GET AHEAD THE NEXT COUPLE MONTHS?

ADVERTISING?

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS ADVERTISING, RETAIL POLITICS, GETTING OUT IN THE COMMUNITY.

THOSE WHO HAVE A NAME, THEY ARE BENEFITED OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY SOMEWHAT ESTABLISHED IN THE HUMAN MIND HERE IN RHODE ISLAND.

I JUST THINK THEY NEED TO FIND THE ISSUE.

THIS IS WHERE THEY SPEND MONEY ON MARKETING AND PULLING -- AND PULLING TO FIND THE DIMENSIONS THE VOTER WANTS TO KNOW.

YOU HAVE GOT TO CLAIM THAT AND FIGURE IT OUT AND RUN WITH IT.

>> LET'S DO OUTRAGES AND/OR KUDOS.

MR. REILLY?

>> THIS LATIN KINGS GANG MEMBER TRYING TO USE THESE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORMS TO GET OUT OF PRISON AFTER MURDERING SOMEONE.

THIS WILL LEAD TO BACKLASH AGAINST KAMIL JUSTICE REFORM GENERALLY AND THAT IS A BAD THING BECAUSE WE DO NEED IT IN SOME FORM BUT I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE CASE THOSE WHO SUPPORTED THOSE REFORMS SOUGHT.

IT ALSO HIGHLIGHTS THINGS LIKE MARIO'S REFORM, THE STATE VERSION OF THE FIRST STEP ACT FEDERALLY, WHICH IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE NAMED A LOT AFTER A MURDER.

THAT IS MY OUTRAGE.

>> IT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

JIM?

>> I HAVE A KUDOS.

FOR YEARS, WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT DIVERSIFYING THE JUDICIARY.

MY KUDOS GOES TO THE NOMINATING COMMISSION, BECAUSE YESTERDAY, THEY DECIDED TO INTERVIEW NINE PEOPLE, AND OF THE SIX PERSONS OF COLOR WHO APPLIED, ALL SIX WILL BE INTERVIEWED.

LET ME MAKE ANOTHER PREDICTION ON YOUR SHOW.

>> THERE WE GO.

>> DEATON, SMITH, COOPER, CARVALHO, CARDONA, AND FOSTER, PEOPLE OF COLOR THAT WILL INTERVIEW, AND I PREDICT ONE WILL FILL THAT VACANCY ON THE SUPERIOR COURT.

>> YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FROM MR. VINCENT.

>> DAVE, LAST MINUTE.

>> MY OUTRAGE WILL PROBABLY NOT BE POPULAR WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE BUT I WILL OFFER IT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN ON MY MIND SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE KOREAN WAR.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES, NATO, I THINK THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY WHEN IT HAS COME TO UKRAINE.

WE HAVE ALLOWED A BULLY TO MURDER, CREATE ALL SORTS OF CARNAGE, AND WE HAVE STOOD BY, YES, WE HAVE SPENT MONEY, BUT WE HAVE BEEN LATE TO THE DANCE WITH US.

WE SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP A LONG TIME AGO.

THIS NATION AND OUR ALLIES, WEALTHY NATIONS, SHOULD HAVE JUMPED IN THERE ALONG TIME AGO, PUT THE SANCTIONS ON MONTHS AGO WHEN THE BUILDUP WAS THERE.

THIS WAS NOT A MYSTERY.

PUTIN HAS TOLD EVERYBODY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO.

HE IS GOING TO TRY TO PUT ONCE WAS.

EVERYBODY SEVERAL WE DO NOT WANT TO GET IN THERE OR THERE WILL BE A NUCLEAR WAR COULD HE WILL USE THAT THREAT -- A NUCLEAR WAR COULD HE WILL USE THAT THREAT EVERY TIME HE GOES INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

IT IS A SHAME WE DID NOT DO MORE.

>> THANKS.

IT WAS A QUICK HALF-HOUR.

COME BACK NEXT WEEK.

WE WILL HAVE ALL THE NEWS COVERED OVER THE NEXT WEEK OR COME BACK AS THE LIVELY EXPERIMENT CONTINUES.

HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I AM JOHN HAYS AND -- JOHN