Jim: This week we have all things General assembly.

What made it and what didn’t in the waning days of the session?

Providence schools getting more money from the city, but will you enough?

>> "A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by -- >> hi, I’m John Hayes invite Junior.

For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight for Rhode Islanders.

I’m a proud supporter of this program and Rhode Island PBS.

>> joining us, Dan McGowan, Susie Yankee, and Bob Walsh.

Welcome, I’m Jim Hummel.

We appreciate you spending a part of your weekend with us.

Strange things happen on the last day or two of the assembly session every year.

After moving at a sometimes great -- glacial pace, legislation from the leadership races onto the house or senate floor.

Other bills that were season -- seemingly dead at the beginning of the week come off life-support and arrive on the desks of lawmakers ready for a vote.

Bob, let me begin with you.

You are the banker on the show.

Some people don’t know that you were a banker in a former life.

Citizens Bank had asked for tax breaks.

Why did it pass?

Bob: Because it was logical.

The state makes more money if they say that if they leave.

I don’t think that people understand of the story that citizens was one of the companies that took advantage of an old tax credit opportunity that changed during COVID.

What they asked to do is for the state to change the tax assessment to what Massachusetts changed it to.

Massachusetts felt that they were being discriminated against by income real estate and everything else.

They made a logical appeal much earlier than it became newsworthy.

In a totally unrelated scenario they were selling a building and the state is looking at it and I think those things got completed yeah but they were separate transactions.

Once it was analyzed in.

The logic to it, it is past fairly overwhelmingly.

Jim: There was a threat to leave.

They had built a huge headquarters.

Susie: The way Bob talks about it, there was a tax process and if we are going to stay competitive with Massachusetts, we should match them in tax, sales and income, so we don’t lose anybody.

If you are doing that, a tax sale.

The second process was they wanted to purchase land in Riverside.

Bob: Existing facility, but unrelated to the original request.

Susie: That was a huge holdup and why the state was going to spend more than the assessment.

Bob: I don’t even know if that was true, the costs that we saw was to buy and rehabilitate the kitchen, which you should, it would be a lot more than that.

Susie: It got conflated.

Bob: Then it settled down and they looked at it.

Susie: There’s always the possibility that you are targeting one specific business and then it turns into crony capitalism.

As far as the tax goes, if you are matching Massachusetts, we should be doing that all the time.

Bob: I like that, they have a surtax on the rat -- the rich.

[LAUGHTER] Susie: No no no, guess what happens, we get more population.

Jim: Only in education.

[LAUGHTER] Susie: Not on that tax policy.

Bob: I know you didn’t intend it.

Dan: I think you’re both right, it got messy because of that situation.

Bob is right, it was entirely separate and it came together, the stories journalists were writing were the same stories.

East Providence versus Taxation.

It’s not just Massachusetts, the majority of states at this point are moving in this direction of single sales factors.

It made sense for that.

But it was a bit messy and in the last week you like to see this kind of thing happen and the chamber deserves a lot of credit, the Chamber of Commerce really put a call out for last Thursday, last Friday, saying hey, there is a chance that citizens might.

That threat was on the table, legitimate or not.

Bob: A logical business decision.

All you have to do is move your headquarters.

Jim: Also think about the unease.

Hasbro has been talking about that.

Textron.

The big companies, CVS.

8 it’s a cost-benefit -- Susie: It’s a cost-benefit analysis.

Bob: It was because neutral to give up one and adopt the one Massachusetts had.

Net net, we are in the same place we were before with citizens.

Jim: A lot of sound and fury from the corrections officer union.

Junior, controversial candidate, some people take it as a badge of honor.

At the end of the day some of the Senators voted against it, mounting a furious campaign in the end.

Am I missing something in the story?

Dan: I don’t think so.

There was a furious effort from the correctional officer union.

Typically they have the ear of a lot of general assembly members, but I think they kind of shot their shot and missed.

It was clear going back a couple of weeks ago when the campaign kind of started, somebody said to me in the Senate that once it makes the agenda for confirmation hearing, it means the deal has been cut.

>> especially on the last day.

>> is very unlikely that you will fight it down and again they missed, overwhelmingly sailed through the judiciary committee and it sailed through.

>> the correctional officers were worried that this gentleman had been fired twice.

It’s a different approach than what they have been looking for.

More conciliatory towards the prisoners rather than taking the side of the correctional union.

He is their leader now, let’s see how it goes.

Bob: I think that Richard is a brilliant political strategist.

If you go into a fight and you know you will lose, why fight?

to serve the issues and put everyone on notice.

There’s more gang violence and more drugs getting into the ACI.

They are well way understaffed and locking in correctional officers for double and triple shifts, even if they don’t want to, but they don’t have enough of.

He was able to service all of those issues and put everyone on notice.

You pick to this guy, here are the problems that need to address.

>> and we are back in a year.

>> I would recommend that both parties start the process immediately.

I don’t know if we need the auditor General for the state of Rhode Island on the list of topics.

>> inspector general.

>> we do need one.

Next we need a statewide mediator who can jump into situations like that and say what is done is done, you have a new director, union on the surface.

>> Mr. Walsh, UT that up beautifully, I want to talk about inspector general.

>> it’s sorely needed.

Why we don’t have one, I think the Republicans did a good job of eating down the inspector general from Massachusetts to make a case why we would need one.

There are so many issues here that could have been avoided or resolved with an inspector general and the more than make up for it.

I’m a limited government type of person and I’m actually promoting another thing, they pay for themselves.

>> it’s not just the Republicans this year.

I wouldn’t call them backbench, but they brought on some Democrats, which helps to make the argument.

Next they really brought in some very good people to testify and they really rooted out waste, flaw, use.

Be beneficial to the state.

Dan: I would say it doesn’t remove polished the process.

There is a debate over what the inspector general goes after.

Politics would still be a play.

I agree it would be nice to have more oversight over the agencies as we see what is going on and we are seeing Rhode Island having to pay back.

I think it would make sense to have someone whose full-time job was to look at that.

>> You are right and you have to be careful as to where the office is housed.

There was a push and maybe it should be put under the useless role of Lieutenant Governor, should it be in that office?

I think it should be totally independent.

Of course in this state, nothing is ever totally independent.

But there has to be something.

>> the leadership has brushed proponents off every year.

>> right in this instance shows a constitutional convention that might be great.

Look at what people want.

[LAUGHTER] They want IG, they want term limits, they want all of these things.

Line item veto.

The General assembly, the leaders have to know.

>> we have auditor general.

We have attorney general who doesn’t have enough staff to go after the criminal stuff.

Is it as easy as they do not want the camel nose under the tent?

>> I’m kind of agnostic on the issue but I don’t think it’s the great panacea.

Going all the way back to downsizing the legislature like things are going to be different now.

People who are still upset are still upset.

I’m agnostic for all of the reasons identified.

Where do you house it?

what authority is identified?

There are people with elected officials already who say it’s a bad idea and it still happens.

38 Studios would still have happened despite objectives because there was only one who said it was a bad idea.

>> he likes it because his last name was what?

>> Watson.

>> right.

>> the initials?

Flex inspector general in place, could someone have called him about the Washington Bridge and say that there are some inspectors not getting their job done?

>> in fairness I supposed to the argument against, you know, we get calls, reporters get calls, state police get calls every day about nefarious things that are happening and you can’t take up everything.

I don’t know that the Washington Ridge would be a good example.

Look, the after hours report on duty 38 Studios would be helpful in we got a version of that and there are lots of things across government that go unnoticed that we pay for.

Dan: Again, I am truly agnostic on it.

I don’t see where functional government can get to the same place.

By the way, free media, free and open press.

Or the Hummel report.

The humble report actually surfaces a lot of these issues.

>> we could be Deputy Inspector General’s.

>> the problem is that when you say under the tent, they don’t even want to affirm the request, which is upgraded -- outrageous.

That’s a problem.

>> now you have your Segway.

[LAUGHTER] Susie: There’s so much to talk about.

Jim: The clock is ticking, but what if they looked at the J CLS budget.

You know?

I get the feeling that from a human standpoint the speaker is like -- we have extra jobs with people walking around the hall.

They worry it’s going to be inspected.

But you can trim 10% and not miss it at all.

Dan: That’s why it is the case for the inspector general.

The concern is always where power and money is.

If you have a system that you kind of like, you don’t want to change it.

Max line item veto, right?

Susie: That’s right.

If you can give jobs and goodies to people who will vote for you, isn’t the only good vote is one that can continue to be bought that’s what we are dealing with.

Bob: Three issues on the table?

[LAUGHTER] Jim: We are taking on a Friday morning.

About seven hours ago, the general assembly hit the gavel for the last time at 1:30 in the morning and they did pass, usually in these years ending in four, constitutional convention.

We haven’t had one since 1986.

We talked about this a bit, lobbying gets involved, a lot of money spent.

Your thoughts?

Susie: I think that we should have one and I think that there are things that the people want.

One of them is term limits.

The line item veto, it would make the government function better.

Not perfect, nothing is ever perfect.

I always say -- there is no fear in the constitutional convention .

You can get two bites at the apple.

Whatever comes out of the convention, people have to vote on.

You get a second bite.

Anything that the Democrats want, they get in the general assembly.

You do, you get whatever you want.

Dan: This is Bob: My third cycle -- Bob: this is my third cycle when I had to deal with the aftermath of the first month, there’s no other way to say it, it’s funny.

Here’s the division, right?

We will have something different with a constitutional convention that puts all this stuff on the ballot.

How was it elected?

75 state presented of districts that already exist.

How is your team doing?

We have eight we will lose three.

Why would it be different, the electoral outcomes of that process?

I saw how the convention in the 80’s was controlled by a very conservative speaker of the house that ended up putting Jim: The choice issue on balance.

Jim:Mattie Smith?

Bob: Mattie Smith.

Jim: And the chair.

Kevin McKenna.

Bob: Kevin McKenna, both incredibly active in the anti-choice movement.

Bob: But the check in the -- Jim: But the check and balance was it was voted down.

Bob: Why would they think that if the Legislature has a tendency towards these issues that it would be any different Jim: -- Jim:Reflective.

Bob: Right.

Again, there is potential for big money advertising now, still the potential for mischief, whatever question number 11 is.

It gets buried and I don’t see it.

Dan: I love interesting, this would be interesting.

Let’s get after it and do it.

As a journalist it would be fun to cover the debates.

Doesn’t change anything?

Probably not, but as a journalist it would be fun to cover.

Susie: It is fun to see the issues that come up.

>> it’s never going to happen legislatively.

Dan: I’m against it, but if they have it I will probably run to be a delegate.

74 frames.

Susie: He’s going to run to be chair.

Jim: Both of them will be delegates.

Dan: We can run against each other.

[LAUGHTER] Jim: When Ken Block ran for governor, I know I will get this wrong, but his tagline was something like because Rhode Island needs to change or be changed.

Susie: Change is difficult here.

Jim: Exactly.

What was the ad they used to have years ago from oil to gas or gas to oil?

changing is chancy.

Dan: If that happened -- Bob: If that happens, I will run and try to get an amendment to make education a constitutional right , which we have been trying for four years.

Jim: You could be an embedded panelist.

I mean, Bob: Look at it -- Bob:"Live Jim: Jim: -- A lot of people were not known in 85.

Dan: I can’t say that, I was born in 86.

Jim: That makes me feel old Susie:.

Other issues?

Susie:Those are my top three.

Line item, term limits, Inspector General.

It would be beneficial.

Bob: I don’t know that those are all constitutional issues.

Susie: You can put anything you want.

I think that Bob is right, sometimes we think that this is going to be the thing that is going to make huge change and that it Bob: Doesn’t, because change Bob: -- Jim:Jim: It’s a distraction.

They said the same thing about the judicialNominating commission.

Bob: They said the same thing aboutThe ethics committee.

Susie: It’s a Bob: Better system.

Bob:It becomes a political football and it makes some people not run.

Not run.

Susie: They don’t really have any power.

Dan: They write their own rules.

They Jim: Jim: Said as judge and jury.

It’s OK for them to vote on it.

Dan: That’s class exemption Susie: Some days it is 10, some days it is 165.

It depends on who they are Jim:.

Jim:No big issue at the general assembly.

Housing, sometimes called granny flats, basically you could put an extra unit on your own house.

It passed.

There was opposition in the Senate.

Driving in today, I thought what a great name for a band, Joey and the ADUs.

>> put that on the Constitution, Levitt.

>> significant?

>> big win for the speaker.

Fairly significant.

What I was most surprised about was how close it was in the Senate.

>> 21-15?

>> for the issue.

>> and on the floor that’s close.

>> you saw it on the no votes, a combination of progressives and the more conservative members.

Different parts of the state voting against it.

I do think that the speaker has been right about this, been at the forefront of needing to expand housing in the state.

It’s an easy and clear way to do it.

I know the fear is about Airbnb and changing the character of a neighborhood.

But this is going to be able to at some point put more people in houses and I think it makes sense.

>> change hard and I think you are right.

There was a combination of folks against it.

I know in the end game it was about what it allowed trailers and they changed it to may, not how, and we have to do everything we can to address the housing problem.

That was only one of 15 bills the speaker put forth.

The speaker showed phenomenal leadership on an issue crucial to the state and they got it done.

Jim: But there was chafing from the local communities on it.

>> the issue with the ADUs is that most cities and towns already allow them.

To say that it was a granny issue and sell it to senior citizens, we will allow you to build on to your house and live there.

My issue is that if it is not owner-occupied, that’s where you have problem’s.

If the owner is not occupied in the house where you had the accessory dwelling unit, you might run into some issues like with crack houses in your neighborhood and that is when the local people get upset.

>> maybe granny is running the crack house?

>> like the Airbnb problem.

>> I think you went all the way to the end.

[LAUGHTER] >> I think, no, the rental, the short-term rental thing, the short-term rental thing is going to have to be addressed.

Backside don’t want to short you on outrages or kudos.

Dan?

>> I worked at Channel 12 for about six years and had a great experience there.

When I started I made about 30 eight thousand dollars and was paid -- one third of my income was going to rent.

>> which was lower back then.

Next fair enough.

I had to sign a contract that said I couldn’t go work or the journal, I couldn’t go work for WJ -- WJAR or Channel six because of a noncompete.

It’s good news that they address that last night that it is outrageous that television’s have to sign these noncompete agreements.

I’m glad that the moderator finally addressed it.

We don’t have trade secrets.

What am I going to do, teach people how to wipe his his ties?

[LAUGHTER] >> I always thought the same thing.

Whenever my contract was up, the other stations might talk to me, but when there was an opening, my contract wasn’t up.

Were they worried about the secrets of being number three?

Whatever.

[LAUGHTER] >> two kudos.

First, the cook one.

Uncle Jack, thank you for watching.

I said I would give you a shout out when I was back on the show.

The second is Rhode Island PBS, I got to go to the premiere of the second documentary on water, fire, art and solar city.

Our producer today, Mary Steele, was the writer for the show.

Phenomenal, watching it 7:00 on Friday night, stay on this channel.

At 8:00 it will have a premier.

>> watch it online?

>> go to PBS.org.

It will air several times over the weekend.

It encapsulates the 30 year history of WaterFire.

I have a conflict to disclose.

I went back on the board.

Believe it or not, I ended my six years on the board 15 years ago.

WaterFire is a phenomenal economic engine and artistic endeavor for this, not only the city, but the state, bringing people all over the world.

But we will need some help.

Or this documentary will be there eulogy.

We are up against it.

Corporate sponsorships are harder and we will have to do a lot fires burning for the next early years.

The documentary will tell you the story.

Kudos to Joe, Mary, everyone involved in that work.

Lacks the revolution wind is now piledriving off the coast of Rhode Island and they are attacking the oceans.

The whales are coming across.

It is not going to make that big a difference in the energy needs.

Maybe 1%.

It is a tragedy.

It won’t help us with our needs.

>> are you a card carrying of saving the whales?

I’m an environmentalist from the get go.

Thanks Providence, the city, you it for years.

A couple of things going on in the state.

Mayor Smiley says the takeover is in another year.

The whole thing with the money, the city shorting it, putting out a blistering YouTube video that the mayor said isn’t unproductive and then he gave them more money.

What is going on in Providence?

>> I’ve been calling Bob Walsh about this for a decade now, it’s an age-old problem.

It’s true that as state money increased across the state, not just Providence, cities and towns repeatedly failed to increase their funding at the same pace.

So much so that it’s true, Warwick now pays more money to its school system then Providence does.

A huge problem that needs to be fixed.

The mayor is talking about not having control over the system.

Why this much more money?

they are asking for 26 more million dollars and you can’t do that in one tax increase.

There is a bit of a challenge there and it is a reasonable fight, there are arguments on both sides of it.

Jim: Father, nice to see you and uncle Jack again.

Sue and Dan, always great to see you.

Sad news to bring you this week, we lost a longtime member of the lively family this week.

Lou died unexpectedly at the age of 66.

We leaned on him for legal and political analysis.

He began his career as a prosecutor in the Attorney General’s office before moving on to private practice.

He and I sat through the Buddy Cianci trial.

He had joined us on set just a few weeks ago as a part of his regular rotation.

He pulled no punches on the program, which is what made having him as a panelist so enjoyable.

I chose him to be on the first panel when I took over in 2016.

Beyond that, we texted off air many times, musing about the latest crazy story.

I will miss him deeply, both personally and professionally.

Please join us back here next week as a lively experiment continues.

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