>> THIS WEEK ON "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT."

THE HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE UNVEILS ITS LONG-AWAITED BUDGET.

WE WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS IN AND WHAT IS OUT.

MASSACHUSETTS IS OFFERING UP BIG BUCKS FOR PEOPLE TO GET VACCINES.

WILL RHODE ISLAND FOLLOW SUIT?

>> ">>A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENERALLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I'M JOHN HE'S IN MY JUNIOR.

I'M PROUD TO SUPPORT THIS GREAT PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

♪ JIM: JOINING US WITH THE ANALYSIS, BILL LYNCH, FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE RHODE ISLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

MAUREEN MOAKLEY, RETIRED URI POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR.

AND FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE, JOE TRILLO.

WELCOME TO LIVELY.

WE APPRECIATE YOU SPENDING PART OF YOUR WEEKEND WITH US.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MANY YEARS, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IS NOT STARING AT A GAPING BUDGET HOLE AS IT HEADS TO THE FINISH LINE OF THIS YEAR'S SESSION.

THERE WAS STILL SOME MYSTERY GOING INTO THIS WEEK ABOUT HOW LAWMAKERS WOULD CHANGE THE BUDGET.

DAN MCKEE PROPOSED SHORTLY AFTER HE TOOK OVER AS GOVERNOR SEVERAL MONTHS AGO.

WE ARE TAKING THIS ON A FRIDAY MORNING.

ON THURSDAY NIGHT, THE SMOKE COMES OUT OF THE PIPE, THE HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE DIGS 53 MINUTES AND HERE WE GO.

IT WILL BE VETTED NEXT WEEK BUT YOUR INITIAL IMPRESSIONS?

MAUREEN: IT WAS A REASONABLE AND FAIR DEAL.

I THINK IT WAS MORE TRANSPARENCY.

WE KIND OF KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

NO INCOME TAXING, THE GOVERNOR HAD SAID NO INCOME TAXES, NO TAX INCREASES.

THE SPEAKER SEEMED TO GO ALONG WITH THAT.

I THOUGHT THE BOUNDS WAS PRETTY FAIR IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVE A SURPLUS NOW.

THE A DIA OF TAXING HIGH IN PEOPLE IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DO THAT, ALTHOUGH THERE IS A FAIRNESS ISSUE.

I THINK THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TAXED REAL ESTATE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND PUT THAT MONEY TOWARDS HOUSING, THAT WAS GOOD.

I THINK THAT WAS A FAIR TAX.

I THINK THE PAYROLL PROTECTION WAS A GOOD THING, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY UPPED IT TO OVER $200,000.

I WOULD SAY IT WAS A REASONABLE BUDGET.

IT IS WHAT MOST OF US EXPECTED.

I THINK IT IS A STATEMENT ABOUT HOW THE KEY AND THE LEADERSHIP ARE WORKING WELL TOGETHER.

JIM: JOE?

MAUREEN: -- JOE: I'M NOT HAPPY WITH THE BUDGET.

THEY USED AN OPPORTUNITY WHERE DOLLARS.

THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE RAISED A TAX, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE RAISED A FEW, THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT TRY TO DO SOME GOOD WITH THAT EXTRA $2 BILLION.

INSTEAD, THEY BLEW IT LIKE DRUNKEN SALES.

EVERYONE GOT A RAISE, INCREASE THIS, INCREASE THAT, LETS TAX INCREASE THE REAL ESTATE TAX.

THEY DOUBLED THE TAX STAMPS.

THEY PUT A TAX ON MONEY OVER $200,000, AS MARINE SAID.

I THINK IT SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE.

THAT YOU HAVE A $2 BILLION GIFT FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

YOU CAN'T BALANCE YOUR BUDGET WITHOUT A TAX INCREASE.

I'M A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, IN TERMS OF THEY COULD HAVE RAISED A LOT OF TAXES, THEY DIDN'T DO THAT.

BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE RAISED ANY WITH A $2 BILLION.

BILL: FOR JOE TO SAY HE IS ONLY A LITTLE BIT DISAPPOINTED MEANS IT MUST BE THE BEST BUDGET EVER CRAFTED -- [LAUGHTER] BILL: I MEAN COME INTO ME, THAT IS A RINGING ENDORSEMENT.

I THINK THAT GOVERNOR MCKEE AND THE LEADERSHIP IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE SHOULD BE VERY HAPPY.

I AGREE WITH MARINE.

I THINK IT WAS A TRANSPARENT PROCESS.

THE BUDGET DOES NOT RELY ON THE HOPEFULLY FEDERAL MONEY.

IT IS REALLY A TESTIMONY TO NOT ONLY THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP AND THE NEW GOVERNOR, BUT ALSO TO PEOPLE OF RHODE ISLAND.

OUR RECEIPTS ARE UP, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH A HORRIBLE DAY BACK IN THE STUDIO -- HORRIBLE 15 OR 16 MONTHS, AND YET, THEY HAVE BEEN RESILIENT.

I THINK THAT THE BUDGET REFLECTS THAT.

AND I THINK THAT THERE WAS SOME PRIORITIES.

THE SPEAKER HAD STRONG PRIORITY IN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

SO WE ARE GOING TO INCREASE SOME FEES ON JOE AND ALL OF HIS MULTIMILLIONAIRE FRIENDS, IF THEY BUY BIG PIECES OF REAL ESTATE ON BELLEVUE AVENUE AND NEWPORT AND PLACES LIKE THAT.

OTHER THAN THAT, THERE WERE NO TAX INCREASES.

I THINK IT WILL BE A GREAT STEP GOING FORWARD.

MAUREEN: JUST TO ADD TO THAT, YOU TALK ABOUT THE FEDERAL MONEY.

I THINK SICK ARCHIE HAS BEEN CLEAR.

THEY ARE NOT SPENDING THAT MONEY NOW.

THEY ARE GOING TO SAVE THAT FOR THOUGHTFUL INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

JIM: INVESTMENT, NOT SPENDING.

MAUREEN: INVESTMENT THERE WILL BE A SPECIAL SESSION WHERE THEY WILL THINK ABOUT IT.

IT IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT SO MANY TIMES THERE ARE THINGS WE WANT TO DO WITH TRANSPORTATION, AND IT IS LIKE, WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.

JIM: HERE'S WHAT I WONDER.

JOE, YOU SAT IN THAT CHAMBER FOR A LONG TIME.

IN 2019, THE BUDGET WAS $9.4 BILLION.

JOE: IT WAS $9 BILLION WHEN I WAS THERE.

JIM: MICKEY PROPOSES $11 BILLION.

IT IS A SHELL GAME, CONFUSING BECAUSE YOU HAVE MOVING PARTS WITH FEDERAL MONEY.

NOW WE'RE UP TO $13 MILLION.

ARE PEOPLE EXPECTING THAT TO BE BAKED IN HERE?

HOW DO YOU GO BACK?

IT IS A 50% INCREASE OVER X NUMBER OF YEARS.

WHEN THEY COME TO NEXT YEAR AND YOU HAVE INCREASED SPENDING FOR RICK AND ALL OF THE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS, THEY ARE NOT SAYING THEY ARE BAD PROGRAMS, BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUT TOGETHER NEXT YEAR'S BUDGET?

JOE: THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A DESK -- A DEFICIT IN THE BILLIONS.

THEY ARE GOING TO POSE IT AS A MAJOR PROBLEM.

HOW ARE WE WENT TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM?

EVERYONE IS QUICK TO TAKE A CUT BACK.

MAUREEN: I DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

I UNDERSTAND, WE CANNOT BE FUNDING PROGRAMS THAT WE CAN'T SUSTAIN.

I AGREE.

THAT THEY BRING UP THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE PROMISE AND THE MONEY, WE ARE TALKING $1 BILLION BUDGET, WE ARE TALKING $7 MILLION A YEAR, $10 MILLION.

COME ON.

JIM: BUT HOW ARE THEY GOING TO GO BACK TO $11.5 BILLION LAST YEAR IF YOU ARE AT $13 BILLION NOW?

BILL: I'M NOT SURE THEY WILL GO BACK TO WHAT IT WAS A YEAR AGO.

JIM: YOU ARE AT $13 BILLION?

BILL: THE DIFFERENCES, AND I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY, AT MY HOUSE, MY BILLS HAVE NOT GONE DOWN, THEY ARE CREEPING UP HERE THE STATE DEALS WITH THAT AS WELL.

GET THE -- THE GOOD THING IS THERE HAS BEEN INCREASES IN REVENUES THROUGH THE BENEFIT.

THROUGH THE EFFORTS OF THE THERE HAS NOT BEEN BIG TAX INCREASES.

MAUREEN IS RIGHT.

THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY NONE.

I THINK OVERALL, IT IS A BALANCING ACT EVERY YEAR.

WE HAVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION.

WHEN THEY DO THE BUDGET, IT IS A BALANCING ACT BASED ON YOUR REVENUES AND PRIORITIES.

SOME YEARS HAVE BEEN TOUGH.

THERE HAD TO BE SERIOUS CUTBACKS.

THIS LUCKILY IS NOT ONE OF THOSE YEARS.

NEXT YEAR, I DON'T KNOW, WE WILL GET FEDERAL MONEY.

THAT WILL BE FACTORED IN.

THE MARIJUANA ISSUE IS NOT GOING AWAY.

WE SAW CONNECTICUT VOTE YESTERDAY TO IMPROVE.

THAT IS ANOTHER REVENUE SOURCE THAT RHODE ISLAND WILL DEAL WITH.

IT IS NOT A MATTER OF IF, IT IS A MATTER OF ONE.

OUR CASINOS AND GAMBLING OBVIOUSLY WERE DOWN WITH THE PANDEMIC.

JIM: THAT HAS BOUNCED BACK.

BILL: WE ARE HAPPY TO HAVE THE -- THAT DEAL.

JIM: EVERYBODY THOUGHT NICK MATTIELLO WAS THE FIREWALL AGAINST THE PROGRESSIVES.

IT IS EASIER TO DO WHEN YOU HAVE MONEY.

BUT WE WERE TALKING BEFORE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THERE WAS THIS TREMENDOUS PRESSURE, TAX THE RICH, INCREASE THE TAXES, AND SICK ARCHIE SAID NO.

DID THAT SURPRISE YOU?

MAUREEN: IT DID NOT SURPRISE ME.

I THINK HE IS, WHAT SOME LEGISLATURE SAID TO ME, THERE IS A DIFFERENT VIBE IN THE LEGISLATURE.

IT IS MORE OPEN AND PEOPLE ARE NOT AS -- THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN APPROACH LEADERSHIP.

THEY DON'T GET TO DO IT OFTEN BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY, BUT I THINK HE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB.

I THINK HE HAS DONE WHAT HE HAS HAD TO DO AS FAR AS -- HE HAS TO SAY NO.

JOE: HE IS A VERY INTERESTING GUY.

HE HAS GOT A VERY EASY MANNERISM ABOUT HIM.

AND HE DRAWS YOU INTO HIS PERSONALITY.

JIM: KIND OF LIKE YOU, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY.

JOE: IS LAID-BACK LIKE ME.

HE IS ABLE TO BRING IN PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT AREAS AND I THINK WORK WITH THEM BETTER BECAUSE OF HIS STYLE AND HIS PERSONALITY.

HE STILL HAD PLENTY OF MONEY TO DEAL WITH.

JIM: HE IS NOT STARING AT A $300 MILLION DEFICIT.

MAUREEN: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE SAID NO TO THE PROGRESSIVES.

PROGRESSIVES DID FAIRLY WELL IN A LOT OF LEGISLATION THIS YEAR.

BUT IT WAS NOT THE YEAR FOR THE TAX INCREASE.

HE WAS ABLE TO DO THAT.

JOE: HE HAS HAD SUCH A SURPLUS OF MONEY.

THAT IS EASY TO DO.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT YEAR WHEN WE PULL THE $2 BILLION BACK FROM WHERE WE ARE COMING.

THAT IS THE HEARTIER, NEXT YEAR.

-- HARDY YEAR, NEXT YEAR.

IT HAS BEEN AN EASY YEAR TO DO A BUDGET, TO MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAPPY.

THE PROGRESSIVES SHOULD NOT BE UPSET, THE FACT THAT WE ARE NOT CHASING MORE PEOPLE WITH MONEY OUT OF THE STATE.

IT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO THAT PEOPLE WERE SAYING IF YOU TOOK ALL THE HIGH EARNERS IN RHODE ISLAND THAT PAY THE MOST TAXES, YOU COULD FILL THE CIVIC CENTER WITH THEM, WHICH IS ABOUT 12,000 PEOPLE.

THAT IS IT.

WE ARE CHASING THESE PEOPLE OUT OF THE STATE.

I THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA NOT TO DO ACROSS-THE-BOARD TAX INCREASES.

I'VE GOT TO SEE WHAT THEY DO NEXT YEAR.

BILL: WHAT I DON'T GET WITH ALL OF THIS MONEY, THEY ARE STILL RAISING THE PARKING RATES.

JOE: SILLY.

JIM: WHAT DO WE DO HERE IN RHODE ISLAND?

REMEMBER WHEN GINA RAIMONDO FLOATED THAT?

CAN'T WE FIND THE MONEY TO GO TO THE BEACH, BILLY?

I WANT TO SEE YOU DOWN THERE IN YOUR SHORTS WITH YOUR UMBRELLA.

BILL: EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE EVERYTHING TO BE FREE.

SOME OF THE FEES THEY TRY TO ADJUST YEARLY IN A WAY THAT IS FAIR AND THAT DOES NOT NEGATIVELY IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO USE.

I THINK GENERALLY SPEAKING, THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY BIG OUTCRY ABOUT THESE FEES.

I THINK THEY ARE REASONABLE.

NO ONE LIKES TO INCREASE THAT.

YOU ASK ANY LEGISLATURE OR GOVERNOR OR ANY PARTY, WOULD YOU RATHER DECREASE TAXES, LOWER TAXES, LOWER SPENDING?

THEY WOULD SAY YES.

JOE: I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT THEY WOULD NOT ALSO YES.

.

YOU HAVE PROGRESSIVES THAT REALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO GO AFTER THE RICH, EVERY TIME YOU SEE THEM WALK ACROSS YOUR PATH.

WHATEVER YOU CAN DO TO THE TACK -- TO THEM TAX WISE, GO AT HIM.

BILL: PAY SOMEONE YOU ARE SAYING, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY LEFT IN RHODE ISLAND.

JOE: WE ARE IMPORTING POVERTY, EXPORTING WEALTH, WE HAVE BEEN DOING THAT FOR THE LAST 10, 20 YEARS.

JIM: THEY WILL BE ABLE TO MOVE FROM THE CIVIC CENTER OVER TO PPAC.

MAUREEN: I DO AGREE WITH YOU IN THE SENSE THAT, THAT IS A SMALL REVENUE.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

THE BEACHES COMMIT PEOPLE ENJOY THOSE BEACHES SO MUCH.

AT SCARBOROUGH BEACH, THERE IS A PLACE THAT IS A BLUFF.

LOADS OF PEOPLE FROM THE CITY COME DOWN.

THEY BRING BIG CARS AND THEY HAVE -- JIM: YOU ARE TO SAY COOLERS.

MAUREEN: COOLERS, CARS.

MOST OF THEM ARE LATINO.

THEY ARE HAVING A WONDERFUL TIME.

THAT'S GREAT THAT THEY CAN GET TO USE THESE THINGS.

I THINK A FEW MILLION DOLLARS, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE CAN AFFORD.

JIM: WHAT SURPRISED ME IS THEY HAVE NOT GONE INTO LEAN YEARS AND REINSTITUTE THE FEE AT THE PARKS.

MY DAD USED TO SAY, BACK WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, HE HAD TO THROW IN A BUCK OR TWO.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS MORE INSULTING, GETTING A AARP CARD WHEN I'M 50 OR THEY WAVE THROUGH ME BECAUSE I AM A SENIOR CITIZEN.

YOU CAN GOT HER TO COME UP YOU CAN GO TO A LOT OF PLACES.

JOE: IT WAS SO PETTY TO RAISE THE BEACH FEES.

IT IS NOT GOING TO GENERATE THAT MUCH MONEY.

THE PEOPLE THAT ENJOY IT THE MOST ARE LOW INCOME PEOPLE, WHO CAN GO TO THE BEACH FOR A FEW DOLLARS, ENJOY THE DAY, AND YOU ARE MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THOSE BIG FAMILIES OR FAMILIES TO GO TO THE BEACHES.

BECAUSE THEY WILL SPEND THAT EXTRA FEW DOLLARS.

JIM: THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE HAD JOE AND MAUREEN K&A WHILE.

BILL, YOU ARE WITH US SIX AND -- SIX OR EIGHT WEEKS AGO.

LET'S DO A QUICK AROUND THE HORN.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS AS HE SETTLES INTO THE GOVERNOR'S SEAT?

JOE: INITIALLY, I THOUGHT DAN MCKEE WAS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BEST CHOICES OF THE DEMOCRAT SLATE OF POTENTIAL GOVERNORS.

BUT HE DID TURN ME OFF WITH CRITICIZING TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN THEM SUPPORTING HIM.

I AM A TRUMP SUPPORTER.

AND I STILL AM A TRUMP SUPPORTER.

AND HE DOES NOT WANT MY SUPPORT.

I DON'T KNOW-- BILL: ARE YOU GOING TO GO?

JOE: I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT.

JIM: ONE OF THE REASONS -- BILL: ONE OF THE REASONS I CAME TODAY IS BECAUSE JIM SAID YOU ARE GOING TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR.

I THINK DAN MCKEE AS ANTICIPATED HIT THE GROUND RUNNING.

I THINK HE HAS DONE A GREAT JOB.

I THINK HIS SELECTION OF SABINA MATOS AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WAS FANTASTIC.

SHE'S DONE A GREAT JOB.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HE HAS DONE IN A SHORT TIME, 100 DAYS, HE HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE TONE AT THE STATEHOUSE IN TERMS OF REACHING OUT TO PEOPLE INCLUDING THE FEW REPUBLICANS WE HAVE UP THERE.

IT HAS BEEN A WHOLE DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE.

HE HAS GOT THE RHODE ISLAND ECONOMY BACK OPEN EARLIER THAN EXPECTED.

OUR VACCINE ROLLOUT HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY.

WE HAVE GONE ACCORDING TO MOODY'S FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK TO THIRD IN THE COUNTRY.

FIRST IN NEW ENGLAND IN TERMS OF OUR ECONOMY, STARTING TO RECOVER FROM THE PANDEMIC.

IT HAS BEEN ONE THING AFTER ANOTHER IN A SHORT TIME.

I THINK WE WILL SEE A LOT MORE GREAT THINGS FROM GOVERNOR MCKEE.

MAUREEN: I TEND TO AGREE.

I THINK HE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THE IDEA OF HAVING SABINA MATOS NOT ONLY IS SHE A GOOD PERSON, BUT THE WAY THAT THEY DO THINGS TOGETHER, THAT OFFICE SHOULD BE COMBINED.

I HOPE THIS EXAMPLE WILL MAKE THE CASE THAT WE SHOULD CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

I THINK HE HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB.

THE OTHER THING IS HE HAS GOT A LAID-BACK STYLE.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE READY FOR THAT.

I THINK PEOPLE NEED RELIEF.

I THINK THEY WANT SOMEONE LIKE HIM.

HE IS MODERATE, HE IS IN THE MIDDLE, HE IS NOT AN EXTREMIST ON ANYTHING.

I THINK HE HAS GOT GREAT POSSIBILITIES.

I THINK IT WILL BE TOUGH TO RUN AGAINST HIM.

JIM: HE HAS ALSO BENEFITED FROM THE FEDERAL MONEY AND THE VACCINATION RATE.

WE ARE ALL WALKING AROUND WITH MASKS.

MAUREEN: AND THE ECONOMY IS GOING UP.

JIM: WE SEE WHAT HAPPENS BECAUSE HE'S USUALLY ON THE ECONOMY.

GOVERNOR BAKER HAS DECIDED FOR THE UNVACCINATED, HE IS DOING THIS THING VAX-A-MILLION'S WHERE THEY ARE TAKING THE FEDERAL MONEY, AND IT IS LIKE YOU CAN WIN A SCHOLARSHIP.

DAN MCKEE HAS TAKEN A DIFFERENT TACK.

HE IS LIKE, YOU CAN WIN AND THEY GIVE IT TO YOUR FAVORITE CHARITY.

I'M NOT SURE HOW THAT WILL WORK.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT USING TAXPAYER MONEY?

I'M NOT SURE IT IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYBODY'S MIND, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT PROGRAM?

BILL: I THINK IT IS REASONABLE TO USE PUBLIC FUNDS FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

WE DO IT ANYWAY.

THIS HAPPENS TO BE A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION AROUND THE VACCINE.

I THINK ANYTHING REASONABLE THAT CONVINCES PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL HESITANT JIM: -- YOU THINK THAT WILL CONVINCEJIM: THAT OH, I MIGHT BE ABLE TO WIN THE LOTTERY?

MAUREEN: THEY ARE.

BILL: IT IS SHOWING IN OTHER STATES THAT IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

THE OTHER THING THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IS IF JOE AND ALL OF HIS TRUMP SUPPORTERS WOULD BE HONEST WITH PEOPLE AND SAY, ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET THE VACCINE, IT IS SAFE, MAKES A DIFFERENCE FOR THEM AND PEOPLE AROUND THEM.

I THINK IF WE JOINED TOGETHER, AND MAYBE ONE THING WE COULD DO IS INSTEAD OF HAVING A LOTTERY, IS EVERYBODY GETS A WEEK ON JOE'S BOAT.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

JOE: THE GUY THAT DOESN'T GET ANY THANKS FOR US BEING -- THIS COUNTRY BEING IN THE SHAPE IT IS IN RIGHT NOW WITH THE VACCINE IS DONALD TRUMP.

HE HAS GOT NO RESPECT.

BIDEN COMES IN, AND PEOPLE ARE CREDITING HIM.

IF IT WAS NOT FOR DONALD TRUMP'S PUSHING US, HIS ABILITY TO MOVE THE BOARD FAST, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM THIS PANDEMICK WHICH WE, ARE OUT OF THANKS TO TRUMP ORDERING ALL OF THE VACCINE IN ADVANCE.

AND REALLY PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

BIDEN WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE IT.

MAUREEN: I WILL GIVE YOU THAT.

JOE: THANK YOU.

MAUREEN: I WILL GIVE YOU THAT TRUMP WAS GOOD IN TERMS OF GETTING THE VACCINE PRODUCED.

HE FAILED COMPLETELY BECAUSE OF THE MIXED MESSAGING, AND HE ALSO DID NOT IMPLEMENT IT VERY WELL.

IT WAS BIDEN THAT CAME ALONG AND DID SOMETHING ABOUT GETTING IT INTO PEOPLE'S ARMS.

IN THAT SENSE, I WILL GIVE YOU THE FACT THAT HE WAS REALLY GOOD AT GETTING THIS DEVELOPED.

AFTER THAT, THE IDEA OF SAYING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT, HEY REALLY -- JOE: TRUMP WAS A SALESMAN FOR THE UNITED STATES.

AND HE DID NOT WANT TO BRING THE COUNTRY DOWN MENTALLY BY ALWAYS SAYING WE ARE IN BAD SHAPE, THIS IS TERRIBLE, THAT'S BAD.

HE WAS USING PSYCHOLOGY WHICH IS PROJECT A POSITIVE MESSAGE DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

MAUREEN: POSITIVE MESSAGE THAT IF YOU DON'T GET THE VACCINE THAT YOU WERE GOING TO DIE?

BILL: THE ONLY PSYCHOLOGY THAT WORKED ON APPARENTLY WAS A SMALL GROUP OF REPUBLICANS.

IF IT WAS NOT FOR DONALD TRUMP, WE WOULD HAVE MORE PEOPLE ALIVE IN THIS COUNTRY TODAY.

HE WAS AN ABJECT FAILURE AND LIED TO THE COUNTRY FROM DAY.

.

ONE ABOUT THIS VIRUS.

HE KNEW ABOUT IT MONTHS IN ADVANCE OF WHEN HE FINALLY ADMITTED HOW SERIOUS IT WAS.

HE HAS BEEN NOTHING BUT A DISTURBANCE AND A DRAWBACK.

MAUREEN: IN MANY WAYS.

I WILL TELL YOU THIS OTHER THING.

WE INTERVIEWED MICHAEL CHIPPENDALE.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WE ASKED IS DO YOU THINK TRUMP SHOULD BE THE CANDIDATEIN THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION?

MIKE WAS FAIRLY CLEAR IN SAYING THAT AT LEAST IN RHODE ISLAND, THIS IS NOT TRUMP TERRITORY.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT HIM.

BT THE PARTY, IT WAS INTERESTING, HE INDICATED THAT THE PARTY IS MOVING AWAY FROM THIS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO REBUILD.

BILL: I WANT TO HEAR IF JOE IS GOING TO SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL BE SWORN IN THIS AUGUST.

MAUREEN: THIS -- JOE: THIS AUGUST?

JIM: DID YOU NOT GET THE MEMO?

JOE: I DID NOT GET THE MEMO.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE IS THEY TEND TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE THEY DON'T LIKE THEIR STYLE.

I NEVER REALLY LIKED HIS STYLE.

I LIKED WHAT HE WAS ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH.

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WHAT HE DID WAS BY BEING A PUSHY GUY THAT PAID NO ATTENTION TO THE POLITICIANS.

THEY COULD NOT GET IN HIS EAR AND SWAY HIM.

THAT I LOVED ABOUT HIM.

IS THE COUNTRY A LITTLE CALM HER WITHOUT HIM?

PROBABLY.

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE GET SO OFFENDED WITH HIS TWEETS, THEY GET OFFENDED WITH THE WAY HE HANDLES -- JIM: NOT ANYMORE.

MAUREEN: WHAT ABOUT THE BIG LIE?

JOE: WHAT BIG LIE?

MAUREEN: HE CLAIMS HE WON THE ELECTION BY MILLIONS OF VOTES.

DO YOU THINK THAT HAS NOT HAD A PROFOUND IMPACT?

JOE: ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WAS NOT BOMBARDED WITH EVERY RULE THAT YOU COULD BREAK, WHERE THEY WERE SENDING OUT BALLOTS THAT THEY DID NOT GET APPROVALS?

MAUREEN: I'M ASKING YOU A QUESTION.

JOE:-- MAUREEN: YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP WON THE ELECTION BY MILLIONS OF VOTES?

JOE: K WOULD HAVE WON HAD THE DEMOCRATS NOT STACKED.

ABOUT -- STACKED AGAINST HIM DID HE WIN IT ON THE VOTE COUNT?

NO.

THEY SENT ALL OF THESE BALLOTS OUT.

THEY VOTED PEOPLE TWO OR THREE TIMES.

THERE WAS NO SUPERVISION OVER SOME OF THESE ELECTIONS THAT WERE HELD IN DIFFERENT STATES.

THEY WERE OUT OF CONTROL.

IF THE DEMOCRATS GET THEIR WAY WITH THIS BILL THEY ARE TRYING TO PROPOSED, THEY WANT TO MAKE IT LEGAL TO DO EVERYTHING.

NO ID, VOTER ID, HOW CAN YOU SAY TO ME YOU DON'T WANT VOTER ID?

HOW DO YOU DEFEND THAT?

I HAVE TO SHOW ID EVERY PLACE I GO?

MAUREEN: WE HAVE VOTER ID.

I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD IT INTO THE NEW BILL.

BILL: I THINK JOE'S COMMENTS CONFIRM WHY THERE IS THE BIG LIE.

IT CONFIRMS WHY THE COUNTRY, AND PARTICULARLY IN OTHER AREAS, IS SO DIVIDED.

BECAUSE IF DONALD TRUMP'S PROCESS HAS WORKED IN MANY WAYS WITCHES REPEAT A LIE AND IF YOU SAY IT OFTEN ENOUGH, PEOPLE WILL START BELIEVING IT.

JIM: I WILL SAY, AND I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE, JOE BIDEN COULD HAVE DONE HIMSELF A FAVOR IF HE HAD TO COME OUT IN ONE OF THE EARLY VACCINES AND SAID, I WANT TO THANK MY PREDECESSOR.

DOESN'T HAVE TO NAME HIM.

AND SAY HE GOT OPERATION WARP SPEED, HE HAD THE VISION TO KNOW THAT A LOT OF US WERE SKEPTICAL, WE NOW HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PICK UP THE BALL.

WHAT A SILENCE, ALL OF HIS REPUBLICAN CRITICS INCLUDING YOU.

THEN HE COULD GO INTO WHAT IS HE WORRIED ABOUT, SOME PROGRESSIVE.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

WHAT I WONDER IS, AND WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS HERE, THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IS DONALD TRUMP THE FUTURE IN 2024 OR DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE RON DESANTIS?

IS HE STILL A PLAYER?

JOE: I THINK HE IS STILL A PLAYER BY THE AMOUNTS OF VOTES HE GOT AS PRESIDENT.

HE STILL HAS A VERY POWERFUL FOLLOWING.

IF HE CHOOSES TO RUN, I THINK THAT HE WOULD PROBABLY BE THE NOMINEE.

DO I THINK THAT I'M RIGHT NOW READY TO SAY THAT I WILL SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP?

I'M NOT.

JIM: IT IS THREE YEARS EARLY.

JOE: IT IS THREE YEARS EARLY.

I LIKE RON DESANTIS.

I LIKE SOME OF THE OTHER UP-AND-COMING PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

RON IS BASICALLY TRUMP WITH LAID-BACK STYLE.

HE CAME UP THE POLITICAL BACKGROUND.

HE WAS A U.S.

SENATOR.

HE KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE POLITICAL GAME.

WHAT TRUMP NEVER LEARNED, HE WAS NOT INTERESTED IN POLITICS, HE WAS NOT GOING TO PLAY THE POLITICAL GAME AND IT HURT HIM.

BECAUSE EVERYBODY WAS AT HIS HEELS ALL THE TIME.

SO YOU NEED A GUY THAT UNDERSTANDS THE BASICS, THE 101 OF POLITICS.

I THINK A GUY LIKE RON DESANTIS UNDERSTANDS THAT.

PLUS HE HAS THIS STYLE OF TRUMP IN TERMS OF WHAT HE BELIEVES IN.

JIM: WHAT ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

MAUREEN: I THINK WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT, WHEN TRUMP SAYS THINGS LIKE I AM 100% CONSIDERING RUNNING AGAIN, THAT BLOCKS OUT ALL THE PEOPLE LIKE DESANTIS OR RUBIO OR ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN NAME, BECAUSE HE IS TAPING -- TAKING UP ALL THE OXYGEN.

I THINK HE IS GOING TO FADE.

HE PUT UP THIS BLOG.

HE HAD TO TURN IT DOWN BECAUSE NO ONE SUBSCRIBED TO IT.

JOE: HE WANTED TO CHARGE TO DO IT THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

IF YOU WANT TO COME OUT THERE AND OFFER PEOPLE ANOTHER MEANS OF FOLLOWING YOU, DON'T ASK THEM TO CONTRIBUTE TO JOINT.

I WANT TO JOIN FOR THE SIMPLE REASON, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHARGE ME TO JOIN YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA.

JIM: IF YOU HAVE TO PAY TO GO TO SQUAT MAKE, THE LEASE YOU CAN DO IS GET ON TO HIS BLOG FOR FREE.

BILL: LISTEN, THERE IS NO REPUBLICAN PARTY NATIONALLY FOR SURE ANYMORE.

IT IS TRUMP'S PARTY.

HE IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY MAY AS WELL SAY IT LIKE IT IS.

IT IS THE TRUMP PARTY.

EVERYBODY FROM THE TOP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOWN NATIONALLY IS KISSING HIS YOU KNOW WHAT.

THEY ARE AFRAID TO SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM BECAUSE THERE MIGHT BE SOME REPERCUSSION FROM HIM DOWN THE ROAD.

NOBODY TAKES A BREATH IN WASHINGTON IN THE SENATE OR THE HOUSE UNLESS THEY RUN THINGS BY HIM.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

TO ME, IT IS GREAT.

I HOPE HE IS THE CANDIDATE.

BECAUSE HE WILL LOSE AGAIN.

THEN HE WILL BE SAYING HE'S GOING TO GET SWORN IN THAT FOLLOWING AUGUST.

JOE: WHAT A SAD REALITY COMING FROM YOU, THAT THE BEST PERSON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY COULD PUT UP FOR PRESIDENT WAS JOE BIDEN.

THE BEST PERSON FOR VICE PRESIDENT WAS KAMALA HARRIS.

JOE: I GOT OVER -- BILL: OVER 10 MILLION VOTES THEN DONALD TRUMP.

JOE: JUST PEOPLE WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP -- DONALD DUCK AS OPPOSED TO DONALD TRUMP.

WHY DIDN'T YOU GIVE US A BETTER PERSON TO BE PRESIDENT?

THE GUY IS OVER THE HILL.

HE IS AN OLD GUY.

HE HAS LOST IT.

MAUREEN: I THINK HE IS DOING A FAIR -- JIM: LET'S DO -- WE HAVE THREE MINUTES LEFT.

GENEVA, PUTIN.

MAUREEN: I THINK THAT WENT FAIRLY WELL.

HE HEALED THE BRIDGES IN TERMS OF EUROPE.

I'M SURE THAT HE CAME TO AN UNDERSTANDING WITH PUTIN.

ONE OF THE THINGS HE SAID WAS HE DID NOT THREATEN OVERTLY, BUT HE SAID REMEMBER, WE HAVE A SOPHISTICATED CYBER SECURITY SYSTEM.

IF YOU KEEP THIS UP, WE WILL RETALIATE.

I THINK -- AND HE SAID HE WAS NOT THERE TO MAKE AMENDS.

HE WAS THERE TO REACH AN UNDERSTANDING.

JOE: HE GAVE AWAY THE STORE BEFORE HE CAME, WHICH IS A STUPID WAY OF NEGOTIATING.

YOU DON'T GIVE AWAY THE PIPELINE TO RUSSIA.

YOU DON'T GIVE AWAY SOME OF THE OF THE THINGS HE GAVE AWAY, THEN GO INTO NEGOTIATIONS.

YOU NEGOTIATE WITH SOMEBODY THEN SAYING YOU KNOW WHAT, IF YOU CAN DO THIS FOR ME, I WILL DO THIS FOR YOU.

INSTEAD, HE DID THIS STUPID THING OF GIVING IT ALL AWAY.

THEN HE GOES INTO THE MEETING, LOOKS LIKE A WEAKLING AGAINST PUTIN.

MAUREEN: HE DID NOT LOOK LIKE A WEAKLING AGAINST PUTIN.

NOT AT ALL.

JIM: THERE IS A LOT OF THE DONALD TRUMP ACOLYTES WHO ARE UPSET THAT JOE BIDEN IS NOT GOING TO LET RUSSIA WALK ALL OVER US.

CUT DEALS WITH RUSSIA.

INTERFERE IN OUR ELECTIONS.

HACK INTO OUR BUSINESSES.

THAT IS NOT WENT TO HAPPEN.

MAUREEN: AND DONALD TRUMP WAS REALLY TOUGH ON RUSSIA WHEN HE CAME OUT AND SAID, I BELIEVE PUTIN.

I DON'T BELIEVE MY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR'S.

THAT WAS REALLY STANDING UP AND REALLY BEING TOUGH.

JOE: ONE OF THE THINGS DONALD TRUMP WAS GOOD AT, A LOT OF THE THINGS HE SAID CAME TO FRUITION.

HE SAID THE HOAX ABOUT HIM BEING IN CAHOOTS WITH RUSSIA WAS A JOKE.

AND IT WAS A JOKE.

AFTER TWO YEARS OF INVESTIGATION.

.

HE CAME OUT ABOUT HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE.

WHEN THE PANDEMIC STARTED.

AND EVERYBODY TURNED ON HIM.

THEY SAID, HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE DOES NOT WORK.

WELL THEY HAVE DONE STUDIES NOW, MANY STUDIES AND THEY ARE PROVING THAT IT COULD HAVE SAVED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES.

JIM: I'VE GOT TO MAKE AN EXECUTIVE DECISION.

BILL: IF WE HAD BLEACH, I GUESS I COULD HAVE HELPED.

JIM: WE HAVE TO DO A LIVE LEE EXTRAS SEGMENT.

JOE, MAUREEN AND BILL, THANK YOU.

WE WILL DO THAT IN THE NEXT SEGMENT.

JOIN US RIGHT NOW ON RIPBS.ORG /LIVELY.

THIS SHOW CANNOT END.

EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO ARE WATCHING ON TV.

GO ONLINE AND COME BACK NEXT WEEK AS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" CONTINUES.

BUT WE HOPE TO SEE YOU ONLINE.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> I'M JOHN HAYES AND WIFE JUNIOR.