JIM: THIS WEEK ON "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT," THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FORCES THE GOVERNOR'’S HAND AND SING THE PUBLIC HAS THE RIGHT TO SEE THE DETAILS OF THE OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIOR BY A STATE EMPLOYEE.

A WATCHDOG GROUP ISSUES A WARNING ABOUT RHODE ISLAND'’S BURGEONING BUDGET.

>> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> HI, I'’M JOHN HAZEN WHITE, JR. FOR 30 YEARS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS TO ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I AM A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS PROGRAM AND RHODE ISLAND PBS.

JIM: JOINING US FOR THE ANALYSIS, ATTORNEY AND FORMER STATE REP RESENTED IF MIKE MARCELLO.

DAVE LAYMAN, CORPORATE COMMITTEE OCCASIONS CONSULTANT AND FORMER TELEVISION NEWS ANCHOR AND POLITICAL STRATEGIST LISA PELOSI.

HELLO AND WELCOME.

I AM JIM HUMMEL.

FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN INDICTED IN.

WE WILL HAVE THOUGHTS ON THAT LATER.

RHODE ISLAND HAD ITS OWN DOCUMENTS DRAMA WHEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ORDERED GOVERNOR MCKEE TO RELEASE AN EXPLOSIVE EMAIL DETAILING THE OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIOR OF A HIGH-RANKING ADMINISTRATION EMPLOYEE DOING THE STATE'’S BUSINESS IN PHILADELPHIA.

GOVERNOR MCKEE REFUSED TO RELEASE THE EMAIL BUT PETER SAID IN A PUBLC DISCLOSURE OF THE DISTURBING CONTENT OF THE EMPLOYEE OUTWEIGHED HIS RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

LISA, WE ALL GOT A CHANCE TO READ THIS AND NOW WE KNOW WHY GOVERNOR MCKEE FOUGHT TO KEEP THIS UNDER WRAPS.

LISA: IT CAME OUT YESTERDAY, I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A FRIDAY AFTERNOON DUMP.

MAYBE HE DID NOT WANT ANOTHER 24 HOUR NEWS CYCLE.

WE KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THESE EMAILS BECAUSE OF WHAT HAD BEEN REPORTED.

WHEN THEY WERE REVEALED YESTERDAY AND HE READ THEM, IT WAS STUNNING.

I KNOW WE ALL WANT TO COMMENT ON IT.

I WILL TAKE THE ONE ABOUT WHAT MR. PATTON SAID TO THE FEMALE EXECUTIVE.

THIS IS IN THE 1950'’S ANYMORE.

I DID NOT THINK MEN -- THEY KNOW IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR.

JIM: A BRIEF SET UP FOR THOSE WHO DON'’T KNOW, TWO PEOPLE WENT TO PHILADELPHIA TRYING TO WORK WITH A COMPANY TO RESTORE THE GRANDSON STREET ARMORY.

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THEY WERE MEMBERS OF A ROCK STAR BAND.

WE WANT THIS COFFEE, THIS FOOD, OPEN UP RESTAURANTS, IT WAS OUTRAGEOUS.

AS YOU ARE READING THAT, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

MIKE: I WAS SHOCKED.

THE OTHER STORY IS THE TEST PUT INTO LAW WHEN I WAS THERE IS MY BUILD -- MY BILL.

WHAT THE PUBLIC DESERVES TO KNOW VERSUS THE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL WORKED BECAUSE IT DOESN'’T SHOW THINK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL NEEDS TO GET CREDIT FOR WRITING A SOUND OPINION.

JIM: AND HOPEFULLY SEND A MESSAGE.

THE OPEN RECORDS LAW IS A FLOOR, NOT A CEILING.

YOU CAN WITHHOLD BUT YOU DON'’T HAVE TO.

DAVE: I WAS AS SHOCKED AS YOU SAID YOU WERE.

THIS IS WHERE I THINK THE GOVERNOR IS NOT WELL SERVED.

SOMETHING LIKE THIS WHICH WAS DENIGRATING TO THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND, THESE ARE STATE OFFICIALS GOING DOWN THERE TELLING THOSE GUYS BETTER PUT ON A GOOD SHOW FOR US IF YOU WANT THIS 55 MINUTE DOLLARS CONTRACT.

HERE IS WHAT WE WANT AND HERE IS WHAT WE NEED.

THE GOVERNOR, HE IS A DECENT GUY, I AM SURE HE WAS OUTRAGED BY THAT.

I THINK THIS IS WHERE YOUR OWN PERSONAL SENSE OF VALUE OUGHT TO TAKE OVER AND WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LAW, WHICH SHE HAD THE RIGHT IN HIS MIND TO HOLD BACK ON THIS.

I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE USED HIS OWN COMMON SENSE AND GET OUT IN FRONT OF IT.

HE HAS NOT HANDLED SOME OTHER ISSUES WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE GOTTEN IN TROUBLE.

HE HAS GOT TO LEARN FROM THIS.

THIS WAS INSULTING TO THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE MEETING WITH IN PHILADELPHIA AND INSULTING TO THE STATE.

TO THE CREDIT OF THIS COMPANY, THEY LET THE GOVERNMENT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

MOST BUSINESS PRACTICES, THEY WOULD KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT BECAUSE THERE IS A 55 MINUTE DOLLARS CONTRACT AT STAKE -- $55 MILLION CONTRACT AT STAKE.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THROUGH AND SAID WE DON'’T DO THIS IN MY ADMINISTRATION.

JIM: THERE ARE WAYS TO GET AROUND THAT IF YOU WANT TO.

LISA: THE STATEMENT THEY PUT OUT YESTERDAY SAYING BECAUSE OF AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION THEY COULD NOT SAY ANYTHING MORE, THEY COULD HAVE SAID EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.

WE HOLD OUR STATE EMPLOYEES TO A HIGH STANDARD.

WHEN YOU READ THE STORY ABOUT MR. PATTON'’S ATTORNEY ALLUDING TO HE WAS HAVING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AND THAT WAS THE REASON HE SAID WHAT HE DID, IT MADE ME THINK THIS BEHAVIOR HAS BEEN GOING ON MORE THAN JUST THAT ONE TIME FOR PHILADELPHIA.

WHAT ABOUT HIS SUPERVISOR BEING AWARE OF IT?

FOR HIM TO BE UNPAID AND MISTREAT OF LEAVE, THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

JIM: THE ATTORNEY PULLS THE MENTAL HEALTH CARD.

WE DON'’T KNOW WHAT HIS MENTAL HEALTH IS BUT THIS KIND MAKES $175,000 A YEAR.

TO PULL THE MENTAL HEALTH CARD AND HE WANTS HIS JOB BACK, WHAT REALITY IS THIS?

DAVE: THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT DID WRITE A LETTER TELLS YOU HOW OUTRAGEOUS IT WAS.

THEY WERE PROBABLY TRYING TO PUT OFFICIAL, BUT IT WAS REALLY VERY INSULTING.

I HOPE THAT IS NOT HOW RHODE ISLAND IS PERCEIVED IN THE CONTRACTS.

THAT DOES NOT HELP US.

IT IS A NATIONAL STORY.

IT IS TERRIBLE.

THE GOVERNOR WAS TO HAVE ACTED AT THE VERY OUTSET -- HE NEEDS TO SEND A MESSAGE NOT ONLY TO THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HIM THAT WE DON'’T TOLERATE THIS AND IF YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I AM NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT.

I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU COVER.

IT ALSO SENDS A MESSAGE TO THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY NATIONWIDE THAT THIS STATE DOES NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.

IT CAN PUT A LITTLE POSITIVE ON A VERY NEGATIVE STORY.

JIM: I WILL TELL YOU IT IS WHAT WE CALL A FULL RHODE ISLAND.

NOT EVERYONE WILL KNOW WHO JEFF BRITT IS, BUT JEFF BRITT HAS BEEN A POLITICAL OPERATIVE IN THIS STATE FOR YEARS.

I SAID, OF COURSE THERE IS A JEFF BRITT ANGLE.

HE WAS THE ONE -- WE WERE TALKING THREE YEARS AGO ABOUT HIM BEING ON TRIAL FOR ANOTHER THING.

LISA: I THOUGHT THAT IS RIGHT, THERE IS JEFF BRITT AGAIN.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: BEYOND THIS, WHAT I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING AND WHAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WAS GOVERNOR MCKEE AND THIS DYNAMIC WITH CORONA.

THEY HAVE GONE INTO A PERSONAL SCRAPE.

I ALSO THOUGHT WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT ABOUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS BECOME MORE ACTIVE ABOUT PUBLIC RECORDS AND OTHER THINGS.

THAT IS A GOOD SIGN.

MIKE: THERE ARE TWO MAJOR THINGS.

WHEN A THIRD PARTY CONTROLS THE RECORDS, THE STATE STILL HAS TO GO GET THEM IF THEY HAVE CONTROL OF THEM.

THEY CANNOT HIDE BEHIND, I CONTRACT WITH THIS COMPANY.

THAT IS A MAJOR SHIFT FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'’S OFFICE.

THIS WAS A GOOD DECISION.

CONTRAST THAT WITH THE INCIDENT WITH THE SON WHO WAS ARRESTED FOR DRUNK DRIVING.

JIM: THERE WAS A PARTY.

IT IS A WHOLE OTHER -- MIKE: THE SUPREME COURT BACK TO THAT UP.

-- BACKED THAT UP.

THIS IS A MORE OPEN COMPETITION OF RUA IN FIFTH -- A MORE OPEN INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW.

JIM: WE HAVE HAD A HISTORY OF ATTORNEY GENERAL SPEAKING OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTH.

WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, THE ENFORCEMENT AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, A LOT OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS KNOW WE CAN RUN THE CLOCK OUT ON YOU.

IT IS TOO MUCH EFFORT.

DAVE: OR THEY TRY TO CHARGE YOU FOR IT, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

JIM: WHAT ABOUT THIS DYNAMIC WITH THE GOVERNOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL.

LISA: I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT HAPPEN BEFORE IN MY HISTORY- BETWEEN A GOVERNOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL.

I THINK HE GOES BACK TO LAST YEAR'’S INVESTIGATION.

THE TENSION BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL, NOW WE ARE SEEING IT PLAY THROUGH.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WANTING MORE MONEY AND THE GOVERNOR SAYING NO.

IN THE END, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WON OUT.

MIKE: AND THE CHIEF OF STAFF ISSUE.

LISA: THAT IS RIGHT.

JIM: WE SHALL SEE.

MUCH OF THE FOCUS AT LEAST IT HAS HAS BEEN ON THE STATE BUDGET.

IT LOOKS DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE GOVERNOR MCKEE PROPOSED IN JANUARY.

IS THE SIZE OF THE BUDGET THAT HAS CAUGHT THE ATTENTION OF THE ROAD AND THE EXPENDITURE COUNCIL.

FIVE YEARS AGO, THE GENERAL SIMPLY PASSED A BUDGET THAT WAS JUST OVER $9 MILLION.

REFLECTING A STEADY INCREASE IN SPENDING THE PAST TWO DECADES.

THE PROPOSED BUDGET FOR NEXT YEAR IS MORE THAN $14 MILLION.

A 50% INCREASE AND MORE THAN GOVERNOR MCKEE HAD PROPOSED IN JANUARY.

>> A LOT OF IT IS COVERED RELIEF MONEY WHICH IS GOING TO GO AWAY SOON.

JIM: MICHAEL HEADS UP THE RHODE ISLAND EXPENDITURE COUNCIL, A NONPROFIT BUSINESS WATCHDOG GROUP.

HE SAYS THERE ARE SEVERAL FACTORS RESULTING IN THE EYE-POPPING BOTTOM LINE.

>> TAXES WENT UP CONSIDERABLY.

SOME OF THAT IS INFLATION.

SOME OF THAT IS PEOPLE WERE MAKING MORE MONEY, THINGS ARE MORE EXPENSIVE SO SALES TAX GOES UP.

THERE WERE PPE LOANS AND UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF AND THE ECONOMY RAN HOTTER.

JIM: DOES THAT MEAN THE OVERALL $14 BILLION COULD COME BACK INTO THE $13 BILLION RANGE?

>> THE TOTAL NUMBER WILL COME DOWN.

IT CAME DOWN THIS YEAR FROM LAST YEAR BECAUSE THE FEDERAL PANDEMIC MONEY IS COMING DOWN.

THE STATE FEDERAL REVENUE SPENDING WILL NOT LIKELY GO DOWN BUT IT IS A MUCH SLOWER GROWTH RATE.

JIM: THE INFLUX OF MONEY HAS GIVEN STATE LEADERS A REPRIEVE FROM CHRONIC DEFICITS THAT HAVE BECOME AN ANNUAL RITE OF PASSAGE.

IT WAS NOT THAT LONG AGO WE WERE LOOKING AT $300 MILLION DEFICIT GOING BACK TO 17 -- 2017 AND 2018.

DO YOU SEE STORM CLOUDS ON THE HORIZON?

>> I WOULD NOT SAY STORM CLOUDS.

IF YOU ARE GROWING, YOU ARE SPENDING BY 6% TO A PERCENT A YEAR AND THEN NEXT YEAR IT IS 2.5%, IT IS GOING TO MEET A LOT OF DIFFICULT DECISIONS.

WE WILL HAVE TO LOOK AT, ARE THE PROGRAMS WORKING?

DO SOME NEED TO BE CUT BACK?

THAT IS GOING TO BE A DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT.

JIM: FOR MY ENTIRE CONVERSATION, YOU CAN HEAD OVER TO OUR RHODE ISLAND PBS YOUTUBE PAGE.

50% INCREASE, DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS WHEN WE WERE THERE?

AND WHAT YOU DID YOU LEAVE?

MIKE: 2016.

JIM: GOVERNOR MCKEE IN ONE OF THOSE DEBATE THINGS LAST YEAR, TIM WHITE SAID WHAT IS THE BUDGET GOING TO BE NEXT YEAR.

THE GOVERNOR SAID MAYBE 11 -- $11 BILLION OR $12 BILLION.

WHAT DO YOU THINK AS YOU LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS?

MIKE: IT IS UNBELIEVABLE HOW QUICKLY THE BUDGET HAS INCREASED.

THERE WAS SOME MONEY THEY NEEDED TO BE SPENT ON VACCINATION CLINICS AND SCHOOL STUFF.

THE QUESTION IS, IS IT SUSTAINABLE?

RIGHT NOW IT IS EASY TO GET THESE PROGRAMS THROUGH.

THE HARD PART COMES WHEN THE MONEY GOES AWAY.

THEN YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOME EVALUAION.

I AM NOT SO SURE WE ARE GOOD AT DOING EVALUATION AND CUTTING PROGRAMS.

IT IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING.

JIM: WILL THAT BUDGET COME DOWN TO $12 BILLION OR $13 MILLION?

WE DON'’T HAVE A HISTORY OF GOING BACKWARDS.

DAVE: I TALKED WITH THE SPEAKER YESTERDAY AND ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS MONEY FINDING NEW PROGRAMS WHEN THIS FEDERAL MONEY GOES AWAY.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO FUND THIS?

HE MADE A POINTED COMMENT TO ME AND SAID WE WORRIED ABOUT THAT, KNOWING WE HAVE THESE FEDERAL FUNDS.

HE BALLPARK IT THAT 95% OF THE MONEY SPENT OF FEDERAL MONEY WAS FOR ONE TIME ONLY PLUG-INS.

ONLY 10% MIGHT BE FOR PROGRAMS THAT WILL CONTINUE ON THAT WOULD REQUIRE STATE TAX SUPPORT.

HE SAID THEY WERE MINDFUL OF THIS AND WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

HE SAID THEY PUT A GOVERNOR -- NOT TO THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE -- A GOVERNOR ON THEIR SPENDING PROPOSAL SO THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

JIM: THE ONE-TIME INVESTMENT.

DAVE: EXACTLY.

PLUGGING HOLES HERE AND THERE THAT WILL NOT REQUIRE FUTURE STATE MONEY TO SUPPORT THAT GOING FORWARD.

LISA: THEY DECIDED TO GO FORWARD WITH THE RHODE ISLAND COLLEGE FREE TUITION BILL AND THEY ARE USING FEDERAL MONEY FOR THAT SO IS A PILOT PROGRAM.

IT IS ONE OF THOSE THAT THEY ARE PUTTING OUT THERE FOR STUDENTS.

YOU ARE GOING TO GET FREE TUITION FOR FIVE YEARS AND THEN WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN 2028?

SAY WE DON'’T HAVE ANY MORE MONEY?

MIKE: THAT WOULD BE HARD TO TAKE AWAY.

JIM: THAT WAS A NEW PROGRAM.

AND I ASKED ABOUT THAT AND HE SAID IS A -- HE SAID IT IS A PILOT PROGRAM.

MIKE: IT IS HARD TO SAY TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS WE ARE GOING TO CUT THIS FUNDING.

THAT IS POLITICAL SUICIDE.

JIM: WHAT ELSE STRUCK YOU IN THE BUDGET?

LISA: EARLIER IN THE SHOW, WHEN GOVERNOR MCKEE GOT REELECTED, I WAS EXPECTING A BOLD BUDGET.

I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING BOLD COMING OUT OF HIM.

WHEN SALES-TAX CAME DOWN, WE AGREED THE INCREASE WOULD NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

WHAT I CAME AWAY THINKING WAS THAT GOVERNOR MCKEE GOT A FEW BREADCRUMBS.

YOU CAN TELL WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE BUDGET, THE SENATE PRESIDENT AND THE HOUSE SPEAKER AND WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO THEM CAME THROUGH.

JIM: ALMOST LIKE IN THE YEARS WE HAD REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS.

LISA: I REMEMBER THAT.

DAVE: A LITTLE NOSTALGIA HERE.

WHEN I READ $14 BILLION, I REMEMBERED WHEN I WAS COVERING THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY MANY YEARS AGO.

I REMEMBER ANCHORING THAT NIGHT ON THE NEWS, THE LEAD HEADLINE WAS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY THE RHODE ISLAND STATE BUDGET IS GOING TO BE OVER $1 MILLION.

HOW FAR WE HAVE -- OVER $1 MILLION.

-- $1 BILLION.

HOW FAR WE HAVE COME.

JIM: THEY USED TO REPORT ONLY THE FEDERAL PORTION.

IN THE -- REPORT, THEY TALKED ABOUT GENERAL REVENUES AND THEY HAVE BOTH GONE UP.

MIKE: THE $4 BILLION WOULD BE FEDERAL MONEY.

THE ITEMS THAT WERE NOT CONTROVERSIAL WHERE THEY DID NOT TOUCH THE SCHOOL FUNDING FORMULA.

THEY DID GIVE MORE MONEY TO SCHOOLS TO BRIDGE THE GAP.

THAT IS NOT IN THE BUDGET.

WE ARE GOING TO SEE A FIGHT OVER THE SCHOOL FUNDING FORMULA PROBABLY NEXT YEAR.

DAVE: THERE ARE OTHER MJOR ISSUES THAT DID NOT GET FUNDED.

FOR SUPERMAN BUILDING DID NOT GET FUNDED.

THE TROUBLED TIDEWATER STADIUM DID NOT GET ANY MONEY.

CRANSTON STREET ARMORY.

THE OFFSHORE WIND POWER STAGING TERMINAL.

NONE OF THAT GOT ANY MONEY.

I WAS SURPRISED.

I THOUGHT SOME OF THAT WOULD INTEREST YOU MONEY.

-- I THOUGHT SOME OF THAT WOULD GET RESCUE MONEY.

MIKE: THAT WAS THE SENATE PRESIDENT'’S PRIORITY.

HE DID COMPROMISED AND $50,000 WOULD BE TAX-FREE.

JIM: AND MODEST COAL RELIEF, RELIEF FOR RETIREES.

WERE YOU IN THE LEGISLATURE DURING THAT?

MIKE: YES I WAS.

I LOOKED AT THE BILL.

HONESTLY I DON'’T UNDERSTAND THE FORMULA AND HOW THEY GOT TO IT.

THE QUESTION IS HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT THE SUSTAINABILITY OF PENSION.

I AM SENSITIVE TO THE PEOPLE WHO SAY I AM NEVER GOING TO SEE THE BENEFIT OF A COLA.

THE FACT THAT -- HAS BEEN -- INFLATION HAS BEEN HIGHER, THE PENSION HAS INCREASED.

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW MUCH IS THAT GOING TO COST AND HOW MUCH THAT WILL DELAY GETTING TO THE FULL FUNDED 80%.

PART OF THAT DOES GET PAID BY THE MUSIC POLITIES.

IF THEY CHANGE THE FORMULA AND THE AMOUNT THEY PAID OUT, IT GOES BACK TO HOW MUCH THE TAXPAYERS SHOULD BE PAID.

LISA: JUST ONE POINT, OUR BUDGET IS ALMOST 20 BUDGET OF NEW HAMPSHIRE.

NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS 300,000 MORE RESIDENTS THAN WE DID.

JIM: WE HAVE A DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC.

I DID A STORY ABOUT 20 LEGISLATURE SPENDS ON ITSELF AND AT THAT POINT IT WAS 44 MINUTE DOLLARS -- IT WAS $44 MILLION.

BEFORE THIS 2019, THE BUDGET GOES UP ABOUT $1 BILLION EVERY FOUR YEARS.

NOT A CONCURRENT WITH THE GOVERNOR'’S TERM, BUT THAT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

DAVE: ONE THING YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, AS YOU WERE POINTING OUT, 40% OF OUR BUDGET COMES FROM THE FED OR SOMETHING IN THAT AREA.

HE SAID YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT A LOT OF THE FEDERAL DOLLARS THAT SHOW UP IN THE BUDGET ARE PASSED THROUGH.

THEY ARE NOT THINGS WE HAVE GENERATED.

IT COMES THROUGH AND AGAINST SPENT.

HE SAID THE LAST THING WE WERE GOING TO DO WITH THIS BUDGET WAS LEAVE ANY FEDERAL DOLLARS ON THE TABLE THAT WERE RIGHTFULLY OURS THAT WOULD NOT ENCUMBER US GOING FORWARD.

I THINK THAT IS A RESPONSIBLE APPROACH EVEN THE FEDERAL DOLLARS ARE STILL OUR DOLLARS.

JIM: WOULDN'’T IT MAKE SENSE WITH ALL OF THIS MONEY THAT HAS BEEN PASSED THROUGH THE BUDGET THAT THAT WHILE MY NUMBER HAS GOT TO BE LESS NEXT YEAR?

$12 BILLION OR $13 MILLION?

MIKE: I THINK SO.

FUNDED BY FEDERAL DOLLARS.

THOSE PASS-THROUGHS WILL REMAIN.

IT IS THE EXTRA PROGRAMS, THIS SCHOOL FUNDING STUFF THEY DID WITH COVID RELIEF.

HOUSING WAS A BIG TRANCHE OF MONEY.

THE REPUBLICANS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL GOT SOME OF THAT MONEY BACK SO THEY WERE RIGHT ABOUT THAT, HOW MUCH THAT CLAWBACK OF UNSPENT MONEY WOULD BE CLAWED BACK BY THE FEDERAL.

REPORTER: MICHAEL -- DAVE: MICHAEL SAID TO YOU HE ANTICIPATES THE BUDGET TO COME BACK DOWN.

HE BASICALLY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT.

JIM: IT WILL BE ADJUSTING TO SEE IN THE OUT YEARS IF WE DO START RUNNING DEFICITS, WILL THE CORTEX -- CAR TAX.

TO THEIR CREDIT, WE DON'’T PAY POVERTY TAX ON OUR CARS BUT FIVE YEARS FROM NOW WE WILL BE HAVING THAT DISCUSSION.

ANOTHER HOT BILL THEY ARE LOOKING AT IS AWARDING DISABILITY PENSIONS FOR FIREFIGHTERS WHO HAVE PTSD.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF BILLS FLOATING AROUND ABOUT VARIOUS THINGS, SOME ABOUT HYPERTENSION.

THIS ONE -- I WAS DOING RADIO EARLIER THIS WEEK AND THIS LIT UP THE LINES ON BOTH SIDES.

FIREFIGHTERS SAY WE SEE A LOT OF STUFF WE CAN'’T GET OVER.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LIKE, THAT IS THE JOB YOU SIGNED UP FOR.

DAVE: AMEN.

I REMEMBER A JOURNAL ARTICLE THAT POINTED OUT THAT 86% OF THE FIREFIGHTERS EVENTUALLY GO OUT ON DISABILITY PENSIONS WHICH IS TWO THIRDS OF THEIR SALARY TAX-FREE.

I HAD A PROVIDENCE POLICE OFFICER WHEN I WAS DOING A STORY BACK ON CHANNEL SIX AND HE WAS TELLING ME THAT YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED AT THE WAY SOME OF THESE PUBLIC SERVANTS WE REVERE, POLICE OFFICERS AND FIREFIGHTERS , DO A LITTLE FINAGLING TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER IN GETTING OUT ON A PENSION.

THERE IS A LOT OF FINAGLING GOING ON BACK THEN.

I DON'’T KNOW THAT THAT IS TRUE TODAY.

THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING.

ABUSE COULD BE RAMPANT WITH THIS.

JIM: THE ARTICLE SAID YOU ONLY HAVE TO GO TO MINNESTA.

THEY PASSED IT AND A YEAR LATER IT HAD GONE UP 120%.

LISA: WE HAVE TO THANK ALL THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVE, THIS IS WHAT GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING AND GOVERNMENT BE SUPPORTING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE TALK ABOUT SUSTAINABILITY OF THE BUDGET, HOW ARE WE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THESE GOING FORWARD?

ESPECIALLY IF YOU PUT COMPOUND INCREASES ON TOP OF IT.

I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A HIGH STANDARD YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO MEET TO QUALIFY FOR A PERMANENTLY DISABLED PENSION.

MIKE: THE BILL SAYS IF IT IS CERTIFIED BY A PERSON WITH A MASTERS DEGREE, IT HAS TO BE RECOGNIZED AS INJURY ON DUTY.

IT IS POORLY WRITTEN.

WE ARE ALREADY GRAPPLING WITH THE ISSUE OF CANCER FOR FIREFIGHTERS ISSUE.

IT BASICALLY SAYS IF YOU GE CANCER AS A FIREFIGHTER IT IS PRESUMED TO BE JOB-RELATED.

ALSO IF YOU ARE RETIRED FIREFIGHTER AND YOU HAVE CANCER, IT IS JOB-RELATED.

WE ARE GETTING PEOPLE WHO ARE CLAIMING PROSTATE CANCER WHEN THEY ARE 80 YEARS OLD THAT THAT IS DISABILITY.

I HAVE A BROTHER WHO IS FIREFIGHTER AND I WILL TELL YOU THIS YEAR-END IS STUFF -- THEY SEE HER IN THIS STUFF.

-- HORRENDOUS STUFF.

A RETIRED FIREFIGHTER GOES OUT AND GOLFS EVERY DAY FOR SIX DAYS A WEEK WITHOUT ANY SUNSCREEN AND DEVELOP SKIN CANCER, THAT COULD QUALIFY FOR DISABILITY PENSION.

JIM: YOU ARE ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS.

I THINK THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

WHO IS GOING TO QUALIFY?

I HAD A FORMER FIRE CHIEF CALL IN AND I ASKED WHAT PERCENT DO YOU THINK WILL GO OUT ON THIS.

HE SAID 1% OR 2%.

MIKE: I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE WHO SERVES ON A PENSION BOARD IN CONNECTICUT AND THEY SAW AN UPTICK IN PTSD CLAIMS.

DAVE: SHOULDN'’T THERE BE A RESTRICTION THAT YOU ARE ON A PENSION YOU SHOULD NOT QUALIFIED TO DO ANOTHER JOB?

MIKE: OR AT LEAST GETTING CLAWBACK.

JIM: ALMOST LIKE ALIMONY.

[LAUGHTER] LET'’S GO TO OUTREACHES OR KUDOS -- OUTRAGES OR KUDOS.

WE HAVE A BUNCH OF EXTRA STUFF.

LISA.

LISA: KUDOS TO THE MEDIA FOR PERSISTING ON THIS LITTLE AND A DEEP DIVE THEY HAVE BEEN DOING INTO THE CONTRACT.

MY OUTRAGE IS THAT I LOOKED AT THE PROPOSAL SCOTT HAS COME FORWARD FOR THE CRANSTON ARMORY TO USE STATE AND FEDERAL MONEY.

INDOOR SOCCER, STATE OFFICES, INCUBATORS, THIS IS THE BEST USE OF THE MONEY TO BEGIN WITH.

I WAS QUESTIONING THAT.

ON TOP OF IT, THE CONTRACT ALLOWS SCOTT TO HAVE $25,000 A MONTH GOING FORWARD.

IT MIGHT BE AS A RETAINER.

WE HAVE KNOWN WHERE NOT GOING FORWARD WITH THESE PROPOSALS SO WE ARE NOT GIVING THE MONEY.

JIM: IT IS THE DESIGNER COFFEE AND VEGAN CHEESE.

LISA: WE HAVE TO BE BETTER STEWARDS OF THE MONEY.

I KNOW WE HAVE THIS BUDGET, BUT PRETTY $5,000 BECOMES $150,000.

THINK OF ALL THE MONEY -- DAVE: -- MIKE: MY KUDOS GOES TO NEW YORK ON THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

THEY RULED THAT ALABAMA HAD TO REDRAW CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS TO ALLOW A MORE MINORITY DISTRICT.

IT WAS A LANDMARK DECISION.

LAWYERS AMONGST US WERE CONCERNED THAT BECAUSE OF THE CONSERVATIVE BENT, IT WOULD FURTHER DILUTE.

THE COURT SEEMED TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

JIM: BRETT KAVANAUGH VOTED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND EVERY NEWSCAST I HEARD WAS "IN A SURPRISING MOVE."

DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAVE A RIVLIN EFFECT?

WILL THAT SEND A MESSAGE TO THE SOUTHERN STATES?

MIKE: I HOPE SO.

JIM: DAVE?

DAVE: PARAPHRASING THE CENTURY-OLD QUOTE FROM ALL THAT IS NEEDED FOR PEOPLE TO SUCCEED IS FOR THE GOOD PEOPLE TO STAND BY AND DO NOTHING.

WE ARE WATCHING HYPOCRISY 101 AND THIS IS MY OUTRAGE.

ISN'’T IT AMAZING THAT THESE POLITICIANS WHO ARE THE SYCOPHANTS, THE ENABLERS OF DONALD TRUMP SUDDENLY ARE NOW DECRYING DONALD TRUMP AS BEING A HORRIBLE PERSON, A TERRIBLE PRESIDENT AND SO FORTH.

A GOOD EXAMPLE, BILL BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL, APPOINTED BY TRUMP.

ENDED UP MAKING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DID CHUB LAW FIRM, THE DEFENSE TEAM FOR TRUMP.

NOW HE GETS ON TELEVISION, WRITES A BOOK TALKING ABOUT HOW BAD TRUMP WAS AND YET HE ENABLED HIM.

FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE DECLARING THIS WEEK -- HERE WAS A GUY WHO IS A POSTER CHILD OF COWARDICE, SPINELESS THIS, OF PRACTICED SINCERITY.

HE STOOD BY THIS PRESIDENT AND SAID LITERALLY NOTHING UNTIL JANUARY 6.

THAT WAS THE ONE TIME HE FINALLY HAD A LITTLE BIT OF SPINE.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUS A GUY LIKE HIM IS NOW RUNNING FOR OFFICE AFTER ENABLING THIS PRESIDENT.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, THE FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR WHO BEGGED TRUMP FOR A JOB IN HIS ADMINISTRATION.

HE HAS BEEN AN ARDENT SUPPORTER.

SOMETIMES CHRYSOSTOM AND NOW TODAY HE CALLS TRUMP BASICALLY UNFIT -- FOR OFFICE.

THESE ARE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO DESERVE OUR RESPECT.

IN MY VIEW, THEY DON'’T DESERVE OUR VOTE.

THEY WERE THE TOWERS ALONG THE WAY.

THEY KNEW IT AND LIKED THE COURAGE AND THAT IS MY OUTRAGE.

JIM: LET'’S USE THAT AS A SPRINGBOARD INTO TALKING ABOUT THE TRUMP INDICTMENT.

WE WILL DO AN ONLINE BONUS FEATURE.

IF YOU GO TO RIPBS.ORG/LIVELY, WE WILL DO ANOTHER 10 MINUTES.

FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT, WE WILL BID ADIEU TO LISA, DAVE, AND MIKE.

COME BACK NEXT WEEK AS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" CONTINUES.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK.

♪ >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> HI, I'’M JOHN HAZEN WHITE, JR. FOR 30 YEARS "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS TO ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.

I AM A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS PROGRAM AND RHODE