>> THIS WEEK ON "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT," A RECAP OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE RAINY DAY OF THE ASSEMBLY.

AND DON'T POP THE CHAMPAGNE CORK JUST YET.

[CLOSED CAPTIONING HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY CARDI'S FURNITURE AND MATTRESSES] >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED IMPORTANT INSIGHT.

I AM PROUD TO PROVIDE A GREAT PROGRAM FOR RHODE ISLAND TV.

JOINING US ON THE PANEL, SUE CIENKI, OF THE RHODE ISLAND REPUBLIC PARTY, TED NESI, BUSINESS EDITOR FOR WPRI TV, AND POLITICAL STRATEGIST ROB HOROWITZ.

IT IS GREAT TO BE BACK WITH YOU AGAIN THIS WEEK.

IT ALWAYS TAKES SEVERAL WEEKS TO SORT OUT WHAT THE STATE, HOUSE, AND SENATE DID OR DID NOT DO ON THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS OF THE SESSION.

THE DETAILS HAVE BEEN TRICKLING OUT PUBLICLY SINCE LATE LAST MONTH.

THE GOVERNOR HAS ALSO BROKEN OUT HIS VETO PEN ON A FEW PIECES OF LEGISLATION AS WELL.

TED, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

YOU HAD EITHER THE HONOR OR MISFORTUNE OF BEING THERE AT THE END OF THE SESSION.

[LAUGHTER] JUST YOUR TAKEAWAYS NOW THAT WE HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF WEEKS TO LOOK AT IT, THE DUST HAS SETTLED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

TED: THEY PASSED QUITE A FEW SIGNIFICANT MEASURES AND QUITE A FEW PROGRESSIVE MEASURES, WHICH I KNOW WILL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS WITH MY FEDERAL PANELISTS THROUGHOUT THE SHOW, BUT AT THE REPORTER OF THE BILL, THE PAY EQUITY BILL, THE GUN BILL, THESE ARE BILLS DISCUSSED FOR MANY YEARS -- JIM: MINIMUM WAGE.

TED: MINIMUM WAGE, YES, THANK YOU, JIM.

WHEN SPEAKER MANY ISLA WAS IN CHARGE, HE WAS RESISTANT, AND WHILE I DO NOT THINK THE NEW ONE IS BERNIE SANDERS BY ANY MEANS, I THINK HE IS CLOSER TO THE MIDDLE AND HAD TO GET SOMETHING TO HIS PROGRESSIVE IN HIS CAUCUS, LIKE THOSE BILLS, AND DONNIE IS DEFINITELY FEELING THAT WAY IN THE SENATE.

WE COULD SEE MORE WITH MARIJUANA THIS YEAR.

THERE WILL BE MORE IMPLEMENTATION OF THESE LAWS, IMPACT ON CLIMATE, NEGATIVE EFFECTS IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THE MINIMUM WAGE, ETC.

I THINK THE POLITICS OF WHAT BILLS HAVE PASSED AND THEN YOU NEED A COUPLE OF YEARS TO SEE, YOU KNOW, ARE THERE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES?

PLUS THERE ARE SURPRISED BILLS, JIM, THAT SUDDENLY BUBBLE UP, "WHEN DID THEY PASS?"

HE IS IN NEW YORK, ACTUALLY.

HE IS OFF RHODE ISLAND MEDICAID NOW.

JIM: SUE?

SUE: VERY INTERESTING, AND I AGREE WITH TED, THEY HAVE MOVED VERY FAR TO THE LEFT.

EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, SPECIFICALLY THE ACT ON CLIMATE BILL, IS THIS SOMETHING WE COULD DO BY 2040?

THEY WANT A 45% REDUCTION IN CARBON A MISSION.

I DO NOT THINK THE GOVERNMENT CAN ACTUALLY FORCE TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION.

YOU HAVE TO LET THE BUSINESSES TAKE CARE OF THAT.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN HAPPEN.

I KNOW THAT WE HAD GREAT EXPECTATIONS FOR MCKEE.

FOR SIX YEARS, HE WAS PRO-BUSINESS, AND LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED, THE $15 MINIMUM WAGE, 15 MINIMUM STAFFING AND NURSING HOMES, TAXING THE PPP LOANS.

I MEAN, I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE.

IT DEVASTATES THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, AND TALKING ABOUT THAT, LOOK AT WHAT THE NATIONAL INDICATORS FOR BUSINESS HAVE COME OUT.

WE ARE AT 46.

WE ARE NOT A BUSINESS-FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT.

WE HAVE BETTER EDUCATION, BAD BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT.

HOW DO WE GROW?

HOW WE MAINTAIN WHAT THIS BEAUTIFUL STATE HAS TO OFFER?

WELL, IT IS NOT BY GOING LEFT.

ROB: REALLY NEEDED IN RHODE ISLAND.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: ROB WITH A JIG AT THE END.

ROB: IF ANYONE WAS WATCHING WHAT WAS GOING ON OUT WEST, WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, EXCEEDING WHAT THE COST OF DOING SOMETHING IS OVER TIME, I HEAR YOUR POINT ABOUT THE PRACTICALITY, BUT THE DE -CARBONIZATION, RHODE ISLAND WILL BE A PART OF IT AND IS GOING TO BE A PART OF IT.

IN TERMS OF THE SESSION, THERE IS SO MUCH MONEY AROUND, FEDERAL MONEY, SO OBVIOUSLY WE SHOULD SPEND IT, EVEN A LOT OF TOUGH FISCAL DECISIONS THIS YEAR.

I THINK HAVING A GOVERNOR WHO IS IN POCKETS WITH THIS TIMING IS PERFECT.

JIM: VACCINATIONS AND THE MONEY AND ALL THAT.

ROB: EXACTLY, AND THE ECONOMY GETTING BETTER.

LOGICALLY PROBLEMATIC BY GETTING BETTER OVERALL.

AND THEN THE SPEAKER, THE SORT OF AFTER HARD EDGE MATTIELLO, OFTEN THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE LEADERS IS NOT MUCH IMPROVED, AND ALSO IN TERMS OF HIS CAUCUS, BECAUSE HE LISTENS AND TAKES TIME BEFORE YOU START TO ALIENATE PEOPLE.

JIM: I ALSO WONDER COME ON THE ACT ON CLIMATE, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS WHEN IT FIRST PASSED, NOBODY KNOWS WHO IS GOING TO BE AN OFFICE IN 2030.

WE HAVE NEVER BEEN GOOD AT LONG-TERM PLANNING.

WHAT TRANCHE OF MONEY, GOING BACK TO THE TOBACCO MONEY ALL THE YEARS AGO?

WHO IS GOING TO KEEP THEIR EYE ON THE BALL, 2022, 2024, 2026?

IS THE LEGISLATION BASED, IN TERMS OF WHO IS KEEPING TRACK OF THIS?

TED: FIRST, I DON'T KNOW, JIM, BECAUSE MAUGER HAS BEEN IN OFFICE AS THE 1980'S.

[LAUGHTER] HE IS NOT GOING TO LIKE YOU SAYING THAT.

I THINK THERE ARE VALID QUESTIONS ABOUT A STATE, ESPECIALLY FUNDING OF CALIFORNIA.

RHODE ISLAND IS ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE TROUBLE SHIFTING THE NEEDLE TOO MUCH ON NATIONAL EMISSIONS LET ALONE INTERNATIONAL ONES.

I THINK IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE, MAYBE SOME CENTRISTS WHO ARE STILL WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY FEEL, WORKING IT TO THE COASTLINE HERE.

I DO SEE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF IT.

SOMETIMES EVERYBODY AGREES ON A GOAL, AND THEN WHEN THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL THAT OVERSEES CLIMATE CHANGE GOALS IN RHODE ISLAND SEARCH IS A OK, THAT MEANS WE WILL START TO HAVE TO RATCHET THIS BACK IN THIS INDUSTRY, THAT IS WHEN YOU SEE A BACKLASH THAT YOU DO NOT SEE INITIALLY UPFRONT WHEN IT IS JUST A GOAL.

USUALLY YOU SEE ENERGY POLES WITH REPUBLICANS, RIGHT?

SUE: ABSOLUTELY.

TED: IT IS NOT JUST HOW YOU GET THERE.

JIM: YOU WERE DOING THE STORY AND 2024, "THE COUNCIL HAS NOT MET FOR FIVE YEARS."

[LAUGHTER] ROB: IN RHODE ISLAND, WE HAVE WIND POWER, FOR EXAMPLE.

SUE: BUT IT IS NOT RELIABLE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CLEAN ENERGY, YOU'RE RIGHT, I THINK EVERYBODY AGREES, WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.

WE ARE THE OCEAN STATE, WE SHOULD.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OCEAN AND WIND ENERGY THAT IS NOT 24/7 RELIABLE.

ROB: BUT TECHNOLOGY -- SUE: BUT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR ENERGY, WHICH IS CLEAN AND RELIABLE.

ROB: WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT NUCLEAR, I AGREE, WE AGREE COMPLETELY ON THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT 100%.

SUE: WHERE ARE WE NOW?

ROB: WE AGREE TO DISAGREE ON HOW RELIABLE -- JIM: WHERE ARE WE NOW?

SUE:SUE: WE ARE SO LOW.

40% IS HUGE FOR SOMETHING WE DO NOT HAVE 24/7 RELIABLE -- ROB: BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE NATIONAL ENERGY GRID, RENEWABLE NOW EXCEEDS COAL, AND IT IS ACCELERATING WORLDWIDE AND REGIONALLY.

THERE IS A REGIONAL ARRANGEMENT, INCLUDING CHARLIE BAKER, WHO IS PRETTY ALIGNED WITH ALL OF THIS STUFF.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE FUTURE, WE CAN ALL SIT HERE AND GO THIS IS GOING TO BE TOO HARD TO DO.

I AM READING A BOOK ABOUT JFK.

THIS IS HARD, I AGREE, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO DO IT.

SUE: LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CAOL INDUSTRY -- COAL INDUSTRY, SO WE WENT TO NATURAL GAS, WHICH IS CLEANER AND CHEAPER.

IF YOU COME UP WITH A CLEAN, CHEAP, RELIABLE ENERGY, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO FOR IT, AND SOLAR, THE BE-ALL AND END-ALL, NO, NO, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL AREAS.

JIM: WE GO ACROSS THE BORDER IN NEW BEDFORD.

NEW BEDFORD IS DOING PRETTY WELL IN THE FIGHT TO BE THE KIND OF SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND HUB OF WIND ENERGY.

THEY HAD TWO ANNOUNCEMENTS IN THE LAST WEEK.

I'M EXPECTING AN ANNOUNCEMENT ANY DAY NOW.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT RHODE ISLAND OF THE DEEPWATER RHODE ISLAND PROJECT, THIS IS WHEN THINGS WOULD REALLY GET GOING.

I DO THINK RHODE ISLAND RUNS THE RISK AND NEW BEDFORD IS GETTING A JUMP ON THE OCEAN STATE AT THE HUB FOR WIND, I AM NOT SAYING IT IS OVER, BUT I DO KNOW THERE'S A LOT MORE ANNOUNCEMENTS THERE.

ROB: BUT WE WILL BE DOING A LOT OF STAGING, RIGHT BEFORE THE EXPANSION?

TED: I THINK FOR THE RHODE ISLAND-BASED ONES, AND I THINK THEY WILL WRITE THE CONTRACT.

THAT WILL OPEN NEXT YEAR TO CHANGE THE WIND ENERGY PEOPLE.

THEY JUST DOUBLED THE SIZE OF THE POOR FOR STAGING.

EVEN AMONG REGIONAL COMPETITION, I THINK RHODE ISLAND IS IN A LOT OF TALK OF THE POTENTIAL ECONOMIC ELEMENT OF OFFSHORE WIND.

HOW COULD NEW BEDFORD GET AHEAD OF US ON THIS?

JIM: FINAL POINT ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

SUE: WE HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL OF OUR OPTIONS.

WE CANNOT JUST RELY ON SOLAR AND WIND, BECAUSE THEN WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THE SOLAR PANELS, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THE WIND BLADES?

THEY CANNOT BE RECYCLED.

THERE IS A RISK PRODUCT TO ALL ABOUT.

WE HAVE TO PROMOTE TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION.

JIM: WE ARE BOOKING YOU AND ROB FOR TWO YEARS, FOUR YEARS, SIX YEARS, WE WILL BE GLAD TO HAVE YOU BACK.

WE WILL ROLL THE TAPE.

FALL SESSION?

TED: I THINK IT IS INCREASINGLY LIKELY.

I DO NOT THINK IT IS GUARANTEED.

ALSO POLICE DISCIPLINE, THE REAL BOARD -- JIM: ARE THEY EVER GOING TO GET -- WE TALKED ABOUT THIS TWO WEEKS AGO ON THE SHOW.

AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE GOT TO FISH OR CUT BAIT, RIGHT?

YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT IT IS GOING TO BE.

TED: YES, AND SHEKARCHI ON MY STATION THE OTHER DAY SAID HE IS NOT GOING TO BRING EVERYBODY BACK.

HE IS NOT GOING TO SIT AROUND AND FIGHT WITH EVERYBODY IN THE SENATE ABOUT HOW IT IS GOING TO BE.

YOU HAVE BIG DISAGREEMENTS ON HOW THINGS WILL BE WITH MARIJUANA, THE SENATE WANTS A CANNABIS DECISION, LIKE MASSACHUSETTS HAD.

ON POLICE DISCIPLINE, I STILL HAVE NOT HEARD THAT REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS IN THE HOUSE, WHO IS THE LEAD SPONSOR THERE, IS ON BOARD WITH KIND OF BECOME FROM EYES THAT WAS BUBBLING UP AFTER THE FACT.

JIM: WAS THERE A COMPROMISE?

TED: IT SOUNDED LIKE THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE.

IT GETS COMPLEX.

SUE: DON'T FORGET ABOUT REDISTRICTING.

THE CENSUS NUMBERS ARE GOING TO COME BACK, SO THE REDISTRICTING NU COMMISSION WILL HAVE TO COME BACK.

THE NUMBERS WILL HAVE TO COME BACK SHORTLY.

THERE WILL BE SOME SHIFTING, POPULATION, WHAT HAPPENS, PARTICULARLY I WILL BE INTERESTED TO SEE WHAT SENATOR ROGELIO DOES.

JIM: WE USE A PRICEY CAP THE CONGRESSIONAL SEAT?

-- WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT HE KEPT THE CONGRESSIONAL SEAT?

SUE: YES AND NO.

I WORKED ON THE SENATE IN 2010.

WE WERE RAZOR THIN THEN.

WE WERE 419 IN 2010.

WE ARE AT 428, SO WE ARE DROPPING.

JIM: NEW YORK MISSED IT BY 89 PEOPLE.

SUE: WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW DID OTHER STATES DO.

OTHER STATES WERE HORRIBLE.

WE DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF GETTING PEOPLE OUT AND GETTING THEM COUNTING, ROB AND I.

ROB: I AGREE.

YOU DO THE EFFORT, WHICH THE STATE CONTRIBUTED A FAIR AMOUNT, THEY SAVED AC.

JIM: THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S EMERGENCY ORDER.

IT WAS EXTENDED UNDER GOVERNOR RAIMONDO BACK IN MARCH.

SOME CRITICS SAYING -- WHY DO WE NEED THE EMERGENCY ORDER?

ONE THING QUIET UNDER THE RADAR IS ONCE THAT EMERGENCY ORDER ENDS, LEGISLATION WAS SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE TO ALLOW PUBLIC BODIES TO MEET VIRTUALLY.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME CRITICISM ABOUT THAT.

NOW, SUE, BECAUSE THAT DID NOT GO THROUGH, WHEN THAT EMERGENCY ORDER ENDS, YOUR TOWN, COUNCIL, AND SCHOOL COMMITTEE HAVE TO FACE IT IN PERSON.

SUE: I THINK THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.

WHAT I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE -- WHICH IS DISAPPOINTING IT DID NOT HAPPEN -- IS A HYBRID MODEL.

THAT YOU ALLOW PEOPLE TO STILL TUNE IN IF THEY AREN'T HOME TO PARTICIPATE -- JIM: WITH THE THEME OF CLEAN ENERGY.

[LAUGHTER] SUE: CLEAN GOVERNMENT.

TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE.

WHAT WAS INTERESTING IS WHEN THE TESTIMONY WAS GOING ON AT THE STATEHOUSE, SEVERAL OF THE BUSINESS OWNERS HAD COME TO ME AND SAID, YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY KIND OF A NICE ABILITY OF THEM TO NOT SIT FOR HOURS UPON HOURS TO GET THEIR TWO MINUTES AT A TIME, SO THAT WAS A NICE ABILITY.

TED: AND WE HEARD THAT FROM VIEWERS, TOO, THAT, YOU KNOW, PARENTS, ARE AT HOME, TRYING TO COOK DINNER COME PUT SOMEBODY TO BED, THEY CAN STILL HAVE ON THEIR PHONE A MEETING THEY CARED ABOUT RATHER THAN GOING DOWNTOWN.

JIM: POTENTIALLY TAKE THAT TWO MINUTES -- TED: TO WAIVE IN AND TESTIFY.

OUR PROVIDENCE REPORTER, IT DROVE HER NUTS WHEN THEY DID NOT MEET IN PERSON, BECAUSE HALF THE TIME HOW SHE WOULD GET A QUOTE IS TO BUTTONHOLE A COUNCILMEMBER WHO CANNOT ESCAPE HER IN A CHAMBER.

WHEN THEY ARE ON ZOOM, THEY TURN IT OFF.

JIM: THERE WAS THAT FAMOUS STORY, THE PROVIDENCE CITY COUNCIL FINANCE COMMITTEE PASSED A BAZILLION DOLLAR BUDGET AND NEVER GOT TO SEE IT BEFORE.

TED: IN PERSON, SHE WOULD HAVE WALKED UP TO THE CLERK AND GOTTEN IT.

BUT IN MY COMPUTER, TEXTING PEOPLE, "WHERE IS IT?

JIM: AND CRICKETS.

TED: YEAH.

ROB: I AGREE.

DO A HYBRID.

THEY SHOULD BE BACK IN PERSON.

YOU WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT LOBBYISTS, WHO DO NOT DO THIS FULL-TIME, THE ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE, SO IF THEY COULD PARTICIPATE VIA ZOOM, AND A LOT OF OTHER STATES, LOCAL NEEDS TO BE TELEVISED, AT LEAST LIVE, ON CABLE ACCESS.

AS MUCH, SORT OF, EXTRA VIDEO AND EXTRA WAYS TO PARTICIPATE BY TECHNOLOGY ARE THERE, BUT THE CORE OF THE MEETING SHOULD BE LIVE.

SUE: I THINK WHEN I WAS INITIALLY ON THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE AND TOWN COUNCIL, WE ACTUALLY HAD PUBLIC TELEVISION COME IN AND TELEVISION, WHICH WAS GREAT -- AND TELEVISED, WHICH WAS GREAT.

WITHIN THE MONEY DRIED UP.

BUT NOW YOU CAN'T COME ARIGHT, THE TECHNOLOGY -- JIM: I TALKED TO JOHN MARION, WE HAVE ALL TALKED TO JOHN AT LENGTH, THEY WERE GOING TO SUNSET THE BILL IN 2023, THAT BOARDS COULD WAIT UNTIL THEN, WHICH IS, LIKE, A MIND BLOWER.

SO HIS HOPE WAS THAT NOTHING REQUIRES THEM NOW TO SET UP VIRTUAL, BUT NOTHING PREVENTS THEM, EITHER, SO I WOULD THINK THE HYBRID MODEL, RIGHT?

TED: SOME OF THAT WILL HAVE TO BUBBLE UP FROM CITIZENS THAT THEY HEY, WE WANT THIS ABILITY.

YOU CANNOT EXPECT TO BE PARENTS -- JIM: BUT THEY ALL HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY NOW.

SHOW ON ZOOM., JIM, YOU DID THI- I THINK PEOPLE WERE MUCH MORE IT EXPECTING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE CABLE -- JIM: OR CRAPPY INTERNET OCCASIONALLY.

TED: IT IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY, BUT JUST TO HAVE ACCESS TO A MEETING, IT DO A TWO-CAMERA SHOT, AND SOMEONE PRESS A BUTTON ON ZOOM, YOU HAVE A DECENT WAY TO AT LEAST SHOW MUNICIPAL MEETINGS.

ROB: I THINK YOU SHOULD REQUIRE IT.

I THINK IT SHOULD BE LIVE.

WHAT IF THEY GET TIRED OF IT, OR SOMEBODY ON ZOOM IS A TOWN CRITIC?

I THINK YOU REQUIRE IT GOING FORWARD.

I ALSO THINK IN TERMS OF CABLE TELEVISION A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO PARTICIPATE THAT WAY, IT COULD BE IN CONTRACTS.

AND OTHER STATES, CABLE IS REQUIRED, YOU KNOW, SAY, IN NEW YORK CITY, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO COVER THE MEETINGS.

GIVEN COX AND VERIZON, IT IS A LICENSE TO PRINT MONEY.

IT IS THE LEAST THEY COULD DO.

JIM: THE NATIONAL SERVICE OUT AGAIN.

GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS.

THE GOOD NEWS IS RHODE ISLAND IS NOT THE WORST BUSINESS CLIMATE IN THE STATE.

THE BAD NEWS IS, WE HAVE MOVED UP FOUR SLOTS.

TED, YOU HAVE COVERED THIS.

THE BOTTOM LINE -- AND IT IS A MIND BLOWER TO ME THAT GINA RAIMONDO BECAME THE COMMERCE SECRETARY.

WE ALL KNOW IT IS BECAUSE SHE FLEW AROUND THE COUNTRY AND SCHMOOZED.

IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT BECAUSE OF OUR BUSINESS CLIMATE.

TED: NOT THE WAY CNBC SAYS IT, ANYWAY.

I WOULD NOT THINK IT IS THE LAST WORD ON COMPARING STATES OR BUSINESS, BUT ONE OF THE REASONS I FOUND IT INTERESTING IS WHATEVER THE SECRET SAUCE IS OF THE RANKINGS, IT IS NOT JUST A RANKING THAT PUNISHES BLUE STATES, WHICH YOU HEAR PEOPLE SAY ALL THE TIME.

MASSACHUSETTS IS 14TH.

CONNECTICUT JUMPED FROM THE 40'S TO THE 20'S, WHICH KIND OF SURPRISED ME.

YET RHODE ISLAND JUST KIND OF BOUNCES BETWEEN 45TH AND 50TH EVERY YEAR.

THE PROBLEM, IF YOU LOOK, AGAIN, IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR METRICS, COMMUNICATIONS IS ONE, TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION IS ANOTHER ONE WHERE MASSACHUSETTS GETS HIT, SO RHODE ISLAND IS EXPENSIVE LIKE THEM BUT NOT GETTING THE OUTCOMES THAT UPSET -- OFFSET IT WHEN THEY LOOK AT MASSACHUSETTS.

THAT IS A LONG-TERM PROBLEM FOR RHODE ISLAND, ALWAYS BEING WEDGED BETWEEN THOSE TWO WEALTHIER STATES.

SUE: IT IS ALWAYS SURPRISED ME -- JIM: WERE YOU HOPING FOR 45 INSTEAD OF 46?

[LAUGHTER] SUE: I AM A BIG PROPONENT FOR THE STATE.% I THINK IT IS BEAUTIFUL PURE WE HAVE A STORIED HISTORY AND BEAUTIFUL LANDSCAPE.

I WISH WE HAD A BETTER BUSINESS CLIMATE.

WHAT I SEE IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO IMPETUS TO TRY TO DO BETTER.

WHAT COSTS US?

OUR ENERGY COSTS ARE HIGH, OUR COST OF DOING BUSINESS REGULATIONS, BUT NOW THE BUSINESS REGULATIONS WE HAVE IN THE STATE ARE ABSURD.

THEY REQUIRE STATES -- THIS IS A LITTLE THING -- TO ACTUALLY PAY THE STATE TO COLLECT SALES TAX.

SO A BUSINESS OWNER HAS TO PAY -- JIM: TO BE THE COLLECTOR FOR THE STATE.

SUE: TO BE THE COLLECTOR FOR THE STATE.

JIM: HE TOOK IT OUT OF HIS BUDGET, DIDN'T HE?

SUE: IT IS BACK IN.

JIM: THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE TRYING TO SORT THROUGH ALL THESE MONTHS LATER.

[LAUGHTER] SUE: I THINK THE MESSAGE TO THE BUSINESS OWNER IS, "WELL, YOU'LL NEVER LEAVE."

IT'S NOT THAT THEY WILL NEVER LEVE, THEY DO NOT INVEST THEIR CAPITAL.

JIM: THE PPP MONEY, THE LARGER, THE MANUFACTURERS -- IT IS ABOUT TAKING CARE OF YOUR BASE AND YOUR POLITICS.

TAKE CARE OF YOUR BUSINESS IS HERE, AND THAT STUNNED ME THAT THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT USE SOME OF THE FEDERAL MONEY TO FIND A WAY TO BRIDGE THAT $140 MILLION OR WHATEVER IT IS GOING TO RAISE.

SUE: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF BUSINESSES THAT WERE AFFECTED BY THAT, IT IS ONLY 7% OF BUSINESSES IN THE STATE.

THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY'RE GOING TO COLLECT FROM THAT IS INFINITESIMAL COMPARATIVELY.

JIM: SOME PEOPLE WHO SAID IF THEY KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO BE TAXED, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE MONEY.

ROB: I AGREE.

THE REVENUE WAS NOT LARGE.

I DO THINK THE ONE TAKE AWAY FROM THE CNBC ONE, THIS WHOLE THING, SOME OF IT IS TRUE, LIKE REGULATIONS, BUT SOME OF THE COST OF BUSINESS HERE ARE BAKED INTO BEING IN THE NORTHEAST AND WHERE WE ARE, IS HOW MUCH WE HAVE TO IMPROVE THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

BECAUSE IF WE CAN MAKE OUR WORKFORCE MORE COMPETITIVE -- JIM: THEN YOU CAN ATTRACT -- ROB: EXACTLY.

YOU ATTRACT EXECUTIVES AND BUSINESSES.

LOOK AT THE TEXT STRUCTURE.

IF THEY WANT TO MOVE HERE, THEY I THINK THAT IS STILL THE NUMBER ONE TASK, AND IT IS A LONGPLAYING RECORD.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT MASSACHUSETTS HAS DONE WITH THEIR SCHOOLS AND WHAT WE HAVE DONE WITH OUR SCHOOLS, THERE IS A CLEAR MOVE FOR HOW TO GET THERE AND OVER A PERIOD OF 15, 25 YEARS, WE SIMPLY HAVE NOT DONE IT.

TED: I THINK THAT DISCUSSION WAS NOT AS POLARIZED.

AS A KID GROWING UP IN MASSACHUSETTS IN THE 1990'S, THERE WAS PUSHBACK, BUT NOW THERE'S A NATIONALIZED, POLITICAL ISSUE ABOUT HOW YOU BALANCED SUPPORT BETWEEN TEACHERS AND STANDARDS.

I THINK IT HAS GOTTEN HARDER TO DO SOME OF IT NOW THAN IT WAS WHEN MASSACHUSETTS DID IT.

SUE: IT GOES BACK TO THE CENSUS.

YOU GO BACK TO WHO IS LEAVING OUR STATE, AND THE BIGGEST DEMOGRAPHIC LEAVING ARE THE 20-YEAR-OLDS TO 30-YEAR-OLDS.

THE STUDENTS WE ARE EDUCATING ARE NOT STAYING.

JIM: IT IS NOT THOSE GETTING A PENSION CHECK?

SUE: IT IS NOT.

THE BIGGEST DEMOGRAPHIC IS THE DEMOGRAPHICS WE ARE EDUCATING.

THE EDUCATED WORKFORCE IS LEAVNG.

ROB: AND THAT SHOULD BE BAKED INTO THE RHODE ISLAND PROMISE, A SURE THING TO STAY IN THE STATE.

SUE: BUT WE ARE NOT EDUCATING THEM IN THE K-12 SYSTEM, SO WE ARE JUST EXTENDING, YOU KNOW, KINDERGARTEN.

JIM: I AGREE WITH TED THAT HAS -- 29 ROB: I AGREE WITH TED THAT IT HAS GOTTEN TOUGHER.

KIDS AREN'T GETTING EDUCATED.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE UNION LEADERSHIP, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH VERY WHITE, PRETTY MUCH OUT OF TOUCH, EVEN WITH SOME OF THE TEACHERS, I THINK THERE IS A WAY TO BUILD A REAL COALITION.

IT WOULD TAKE SOME WORK.

THERE'S A BUNCH OF NEW, EMERGING PEOPLE.

JIM: THAT WOULD BE A WHOLE OTHER SHOW.

ROB: I'M GOOD WITH CHARTERS.

BUT YOU STILL NEED TO HAVE A ROBUST PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

SUE:SUE: ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS NOT A PANACEA.

I DO NOT THINK SCHOOL CHOICE IS A PANACEA, BUT RIGHT NOW, THE STUDENTS THAT ARE IN THE PROVIDENCE SCHOOL SYSTEM, THEY DO NOT HAVE FIVE YEARS, THEY DID HAVE 10 YEARS TO WAIT.

TED: I WOULD POINT OUT, ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT THE SESSION IS WHAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, AND ONE WIN FOR DAN MCKEE'S WE NEVER SAW A VOTE ON THE CHARTER SCHOOL MORATORIUM, WHICH IT LOOKED LIKE THAT TRAIN WAS LEAVING THE STATION EARLY ON.

I AM SURE HE IS FIGHTING HARD.

JIM: LET'S DO OUTRAGE AND/OR KUDOS.

SUE: I THINK I WILL GO NATIONAL WITH THIS ONE.

I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD BE OUTRAGED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW YORK CITY AND THE ALLEGED KIDNAPPING OFAN IRANIAN JOURNALIST.

SHE WAS A UNITED STATES CITIZEN.

I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD BE OUTRAGED THAT YOU HAD IRANIANS COME OVER HERE AND TRY TO KIDNAP A JOURNALIST.

IT IS FRIGHTENING, IT IS SCARY, AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PRESIDENT IN OFFICE -- IS HE TOUGH ENOUGH ON IRAN?

JIM: HOW ABOUT YOU?

ROB: MINE IS ALSO NATIONAL, BUT NOT THE SAME AS YOURS.

BOTH: SHOCKING.

[LAUGHTER] ROB: THE FOX NEWS PERSONALITIES, PARTICULARLY TUCKER CARLSEN, WHO IS NO BETTER, PARTICULARLY THE ANTI-VACCINATION.

YOU SEE IT PLAYING OUT GOING DOOR-TO-DOOR, CAMPAIGNS DO IT, SALES DO IT, IT WAS A BIG ISSUE AROUND VACCINATIONS.

RIGHT NOW, COVID-19 IS MAINLY A SERIOUS DISEASE FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE UNVACCINATED.

80% OF DEMOCRATS ARE VACCINATED, ABOUT 45% OF REPUBLICANS ARE VACCINATED, AND PART OF IT IS MISINFORMATION ON THE RIGHT, THIS POLITICAL ECHO CHAMBER ON THE RIGHT, YOU WOULD THINK, BECAUSE THEY ARE KIND OF KILLING OFF SOME SICK THAT WOULD MAKE THEM STOP.

SO FAR, IT HAS NOT MADE TUCKER CARLSON OR A NUMBER OF OTHERS WE HAVE POINTED TO STOP.

JIM: WE WILL GIVE ROB AND SUE A PODCAST.

TED: THERE WAS ALSO A STORY EARLIER THIS WEEK ABOUT THE DEBT STUDENTS ARE TAKING ON FOR THESE MASTERS DEGREES PROGRAMS.

THEY POINTED TO COLUMBIA'S MASTERS DEGREE PROGRAM, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF DEBT, AND STUDENTS WIND UP MAKING $30,000.

THE UNDERGRADUATE COST OF HIGHER AT IS BAD ENOUGH, BUT THESE MASTERS PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE NOT ALWAYS REQUIRED -- I THINK OF JOURNALISM, JIM, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY A LUCRATIVE CAREER, AND YOU CAN SPEND A TON OF MONEY, AND YOU ARE BETTER OFF TAKING A $25,000 SMALL TOWN NEWSPAPER JOB.

JIM: UNLESS THEY WANT TO TEACH, THE NET IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING.

TED: THAT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING.

LOADING TWENTYSOMETHINGS WITH MUCH DEBT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BECOME A LAWYER OR DR. IS REALLY UNCONSCIONABLE.

JIM: NOW WE LOOK AT THE LARGER ISSUE OF THE GOVERNMENT SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY AND GOING INTO DEBT AND, OH, LET'S NOT WORRY ABOUT IT, AND I DO NOT MEAN TO MAKE IT A PART SOMETHING, BUT IT JUST SEEMS LIKE -- I HAD THIS DISCUSSION WITH MY KIDS -- AND I'M SURE YOU DID -- ARE YOU GOING TO COME OUT WITH ANY DEBT?

WHAT FIELD ARE YOU GOING INTO?

A LOT OF KIDS RACKET UP, AND I THINK THEY THINK THAT IS TOMORROW'S PROBLEM.

TED: THAT IS AN ISSUE FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER HAD RENT TO PAY, WHETHER THEY ARE 18, GOING TO COLLEGE, OR, YOU KNOW, 22, 23, THEY HAVE BEEN IN COLLEGE, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING STRAIGHT INTO GRAD SCHOOL.

THERE IS A FINANCIAL LITERACY PIECE, BUT YOU JUST CANNOT EXPECT THAT LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT THAT DEBT IS GOING TO MEAN TO SOMEONE FOR 20, 30 YEARS, SOMEONE WHO CAN BARELY THINK TWO YEARS AHEAD AT THAT AGE.

JIM: AND IT WILL PREVENT THEM FROM BUYING A HOUSE, MAYBE HAVING A FAMILY.

TED: ABSOLUTELY.

SO MANY MILLENNIALS, IT TOOK US SO LONG TO GET OUT OF STUDENT DEBT TO TAKE ON A NEW LOAN FOR THE MORTGAGE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR THEIR 30'S INSTEAD OF THEIR 20'S.

SUE: I THINK THE PUSH, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE IS RIDICULOUS.

I DON'T THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD.

I THINK THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES IN TRADE TO MAKE A GOOD LIVING.

JIM: HARD TO FIND A PLUMBER, ELECTRICIAN, AND A GUY TO HANG YOUR SHEET ROCK.

SUE: WE HAD A DISASTER IN OUR MONTHS TO GET THAT DISASTER CLEANUP BECAUSE THE ELECTRICIANS AND PLUMBERS WERE NOT AVAILABLE.

JIM: 30 SECONDS.

ROB: I THINK YOU ALSO NEED TO CONTROL THE COST OF COLLEGE.

TED: PART OF THAT IS GETTING A LOAN SO EASY.

ROB: THAT IS PART OF IT, BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS ALL OF IT, AND IF YOU LOOK AT HOW FAR IT EXCEEDS THE COST OF LIVING INCREASES, UNTIL YOU MAKE THE COST OF COLLEGE REASONABLE, YOU STILL HAVE PEOPLE GOING TO COLLEGE, GOING TO COMMUNICATE, AND ANY KIND OF TRAINING, TO MAKE THAT LESS EXPENSIVE.

JIM: ALL RIGHT, FOLKS, I AM SORRY THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE COME ABOUT WE WILL DO A SPECIAL ONLINE -- HAVE, BUT WE WILL DO A SPECIAL ON MY BONUS SEGMENT HERE FOR THE REST OF YOU, TED, SUE, ROB, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT."

WE HAVE A LOT TO TALK ABOUT, INCLUDING THE GOVERNOR'S RACE.

FOR THE REST OF YOU, COME BACK NEXT WEEK AS THE "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" CONTINUES.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK, EVERYBODY.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] ♪ >> "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS, "A LIVELY EXPERIMENT" HAS PROVIDED INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS OF IMPORTANT LITTLE ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLAND.