[CLOSED CAPTIONING HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY CARDI'S FURNITURE AND MATTRESSES] >> THIS WEEK, THE DEBATE OVER MASKING FOR STUDENTS THIS FALL INTENSIFIES.

WHY THE GOVERNOR WANT TO PULL THE TRIGGER ON A MANDATE.

AND A CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICING AND VIOLENCE IN PROVIDENCE PLAYING OUT OVER ONE LONG EVENING AT THE CITY COUNCIL.

>> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY ASKED >> FOR 30 YEARS, A LIVELY EXPERIMENT HAS PROVIDED ANALYSIS ON IMPORTANT ISSUES.

I AM PROUD TO SUPPORT THIS GREAT PROGRAM ON RHODE ISLAND PBS.

>> JOINING US ON THE PANEL, MAUREEN MOAKLEY, RETIRED POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, BILLY HUNT, CHAIRMAN OF THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY OF RHODE ISLAND, AND BOSTON GLOBE REPORTER DAN MCGOWAN.

HELLO, EVERYONE.

WE APPRECIATE YOU SPENDING PART OF YOUR WEEKEND WITH US.

THE GOVERNOR IS UNDER PRESSURE TO ORDER ALL STUDENTS IN RHODE ISLAND TO WEAR MASKS WHEN THEY RETURN TO THE CLASSROOM IN THE FALL.

PRESSURE THAT SO FAR HE HAS RESISTED.

THE GOVERNOR SPOKE ABOUT MASKING ON TUESDAY AT THE FIRST COVID BRIEFING IN SOME TIME.

HERE IS SOME OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> NO ONE AT THIS TABLE IS SUGGESTING THAT THE STATE IMPOSE A MASK MANDATE AGAIN RIGHT NOW.

WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS YOU OR YOUR FAMILY NEED TO KNOW THE RISK OF THE DELTA VARIANT AND THEN, IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, MAKE THE DECISION THAT IS BEST FOR YOU.

IF YOU WANT TO WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC, WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC.

IT IS GOING TO BE DEPENDENT ON WHERE YOU ARE BUT I WOULD BE CARRYING -- I AM CARRYING >> A MAST WITH ME.

>>YOUR NUMBER ONE PROTECTION -- A MASK WITH ME.

>> YOUR NUMBER ONE PROTECTION IS GETTING VACCINATED.

THERE IS MORE EVIDENCE SUGGESTING THAT THIS PARTICULAR CORONAVIRUS DOES NOT CONFER LONG-TERM IMMUNITY AFTER NATURAL EXPOSURE.

SO WE WANT YOU TO HEAR THE MESSAGE.

IF YOU HAVE HAD CORONAVIRUS IN THE PAST, RELYING ON THAT ALONE AS THE IMMUNITY TO PROTECT YOU FROM THE DELTA VARIANT IS INSUFFICIENT.

THE VACCINE IS ANOTHER CRITICAL LAYER.

JIM: BARELY, I'M SITTING AT THE BRIEFING AND THINKING, HAS THE GOVERNOR JOINED THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY?

YOU WANT TO WEAR A MASK, FINE, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO -- HAPPY HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH HIM?

BILLY: THIS IS THE TYPE OF DISCUSSION WE HAS AS LIBERTARIANS.

NO ONE IS SAYING WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE GETTING VACCINATED, PEOPLE GETTING MASKS IF THEY WANT TO WEAR A MASK, THAT IS YOUR CHOICE.

WE RECOMMEND YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUR PHYSICIAN AND HAVE THAT DECISION.

WHAT WE ARE AGAINST IS MASK MANDATES.

WE DON'T THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE TELLING PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE FORCED TO WEAR A MASK OR FORCING THE CHILDREN TO WEAR A MASK.

THE VACCINE, ABOUT 80% OF THE POPULATION IS VACCINATED.

I THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH PROTECTION AND THINGS IN PLACE WHERE WE CAN AT -- WE CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.

>> WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE IDEA THAT CHILDREN ARE GOING TO SCHOOL, THEY ARE NOT VACCINATED, AND THEY WILL BE EXPOSED AND WE KNOW WITH THE DELTA VARIANT, IT IS HITTING CHILDREN, SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING WE SHOULD NOT BE TELLING THESE CHILDREN THAT THEY SHOULD WEAR MASKS, THAT THE PARENTS SHOULD DECIDE?

BILLY: OF COURSE IT SHOULD BE UP TO THE PARENTS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES ADDING INTO THE DELTA VARIANT, OTTOVICH AS PEOPLE ARE GETTING READY TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL SO THEY ARE GETTING TESTED MORE, ALSO CHILDREN ARE PART OF THAT SAMPLE GETTING TESTED AND THAT IS WHY THE NUMBERS OF THE DELTA VARIANT ARE RISING.

THIS CORONAVIRUS IS SOMETHING WE ARE GOING TO BE LIVING WITH FOR A LONG TIME.

I THINK IT IS TIME WE START LEARNING HOW TO LIVE WITH THIS VIRUS IN A WAY THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY AND NOT MANDATING THINGS FROM THE GOVERNMENT, FORCING PEOPLE INTO THIS ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL SOLUTION.

CENTRAL PLANNING DOES NOT WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, FOR THE ECONOMY.

MAUREEN: WHAT ABOUT A PARENT OF A SIX OR OLD THAT HAS TO SEND -- SIX-YEAR-OLD THAT HAS TO SEND THEIR CHILD TO SCHOOL WITHOUT A MASK WHEN MANY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE EXPOSED, THEY ARE GETTING SICKER, AND YOU SAY -- WHAT IS THE STANDARD?

THE PARENT HAS THE OPTION, BUT THEY HAVE TO STAY HOME.

BILLY: WHERE IS THE DATA YOU ARE BACKING US UP?

IN RHODE ISLAND, WE HAVE NOT HAD DEATHS OF CHILDREN.

MAUREEN: THERE ARE NEW THINGS COMING ON AND THE SPREAD IS THROUGH DELTA VARIANT.

IT IS A PRINCIPAL BEYOND THAT.

THE IDEA THAT PARENTS CAN SAY, I AM SENDING -- ONE GROUP OF PARENTS WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO WEAR A MASK IN THE SAME ROOM, IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

IT IS A HEALTH PROBLEM.

JIM: NOW IT BECOMES A POLITICAL ISSUE.

DAN: IT IS VERY MUCH A POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT IS INEVITABLE THAT THE GOVERNOR IS GOING TO HAVE TO ISSUE SOME VERSION OF A MANDATE IN SCHOOLS, WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR COMPETITORS POTENTIALLY IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY SAYING AT, YOU HAD -- SAYING IT, YOU HAVE PRESSURE.

ON ONE HAND, WE SAY WE WANT TO SCHOOLS OPEN AND WE WANT EVERY KID IN SEATS, NOT DOING VIRTUAL LEARNING.

WE ARE MANDATING THAT, THEY HAVE TO BE IN SCHOOL.

TO SUGGEST THAT THEY SHOULD NOT NECESSARILY -- THEY SHOULD HAVE AN OPTION WHEN IT COMES TO MASKS.

IF YOU WANT TO GO TO VIRTUAL LEARNING, FINE.

MAUREEN: THAT IS MY POINT.

DAN: DALLAS, TEXAS, 150,00 STUDENTS, DALLAS, TEXAS HAS A MASK MANDATE FOR SCHOOLS.

THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BE LETTING 36 DIFFERENT SUPERINTENDENTS AND SCHOOL COMMITTEES GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH PARENTS WHO ARE YELLING AND COMPLAINING, THIS SHOULD FOR COME FROM THE TOP, I THINK IT WILL.

BILLY: I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

THE SITUATION IN PROVIDENCE IS DIFFERENT THAN THE SITUATION IN PORTSMOUTH AND SOUTH KINGSTON.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT ISSUES THAT ARE AFFECTING DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES.

THE VACCINATION RATE IN SOME OF THESE FOUR AREAS AND URBAN AREAS -- POOR AREAS AND URBAN AREAS ARE DIFFERENT THAN IN RURAL AREAS.

THERE ARE SOME THAT HAVE STATE-OF-THE-ART VENTILATION SYSTEMS AS OPPOSED TO OTHER SCHOOLS.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT UP TO INDIVIDUAL CITIES AND TOWNS.

MAUREEN: WE DON'T MIND THAT.

I AM OBJECTING TO THE IDEA THAT INDIVIDUAL PARENTS CAN MAKE THE CHOICE.

IF YOU ARE AGREEING -- I GET THE IDEA OF THE COMMUNITY MAKING A DECISION.

BUT THE IDEA THAT SOME KIDS -- IF YOU WANT TO SEND YOUR CHILD TO SCHOOL, THERE IS A MANDATE, AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ABIDE BY IT, GO TO VIRTUAL LEARNING.

>> THE LARGER ISSUE -- YOU AND I SPOKE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WE WILL GET TO, BUT I DID TALK RADIO AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THEY SENT ME LINKS ABOUT KIDS ON VENTILATORS IN FLORIDA AND TEXAS.

THE PROBLEM A YEAR AGO, WE HAD TO HAVE NATIONAL MANDATES, AND TO YOUR POINT, FLORIDA IS NOT RHODE ISLAND.

THE VACCINE RATES APPEAR ARE HIGHER.

THE KIDS GOING TO SCHOOL HERE -- NEWPORT IS DIFFERENT FROM WARREN.

DAN: BILLY IS RIGHT, RHODE ISLAND HAS DONE A BETTER JOB THAN A LOT OF OTHER STATES WHEN IT COMES TO VACCINATION.

THERE ARE STILL HUGE GAPS IN OUR COMMUNITIES WHEN IT COMES TO VACCINATION.

IF YOU HAVE THE CHANCE FOR KIDS TO BE BRINGING THIS HOME,% BRINGING THIS TO THEIR GRANDPARENTS, IT SEEMS TO MAKE SENSE TO HAVE SOME SORT OF MANDATE.

I GO BACK TO THIS, LAST TIME I WAS ON THE SHOW, I GOT KILLED FOR THIS, THE KIDS DON'T MIND THE MASKS THAT MUCH.

THIS IS AN ADULT PROBLEM.

>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.

MAUREEN: YOU'RE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENCES IN COMMUNITIES.

YOU WROTE ABOUT IT.

THE DELTA VARIANT IS SHOWING UP IN THESE RURAL AREAS.

THERE IS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE GETTING THE VIRUS BECAUSE MAYBE THEY ARE NOT VACCINATED.

SO COMMITTEES ARE DIFFERENT, BUT THIS IS A NEFARIOUS VIRUS AND WE HAVE TO -- >> THE HOSPITALIZATIONS AND THE DEATH RATES AND PEOPLE TESTING POSITIVE ARE THREE DIFFERENT NUMBERS.

THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT PEOPLE ENDING UP IN THE HOSPITAL AND TESTING POSITIVE FOR COVID AND THEY ARE BEING COUNTED IN THOSE NUMBERS AS OPPOSED TO SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO THE HOSPITALS.

>> AND THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO START RECLASSIFYING THAT.

THE OTHER THING IS, I REMEMBER 20 YEARS AGO, MY KIDS WERE IN ELEMENTARY WILL, WE HAD OUR FIRST COLD DAY.

IT IS TOO COLD TO GO TO SCHOOL.

OLD GUYS LIKE ME WERE LIKE, WE TRUDGED UPHILL -- BUT THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF LAWYERS GETTING INVOLVED WITH LIABILITY BECAUSE WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION SAID WAS, IT IS UP TO YOU, SUPERINTENDENTS, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, BUT WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND.

DO YOU THINK ONE SUPERINTENDENT WENT AGAINST THAT?

SAME THING HERE.

WHAT SUPERINTENDENT WITH THE GOVERNOR SAYING, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND -- WHO IS GOING TO SAY YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A MASK?

MAUREEN: I THINK THERE WOULD BE NONE.

I THINK THEY WOULD ABIDE BY ED.

-- BY IT.

>> I THINK THERE WILL BE PRESSURE -- I THINK SUPERINTENDENTS ARE GOING TO SAY, YOU SHOULD DO THIS.

THEN YOU GET 36 DIFFERENT SCHOOL COMMITTEES WHERE THREE PARENTS COME IN -- >> THEY MAKE THE DECISION.

>> PARENTS COME IN AND SAY THIS IS A VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS AND THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBERS SAY, I HAVE TO RUN FOR REELECTION, THIS IS A POLITICAL THING.

SUDDENLY, THEY ARE NERVOUS ABOUT THE DECISION.

>> THAT IS THE POSITION THEY WERE ELECTED FOR.

>> IT IS A DEMOCRACY.

>> HOW MUCH OF THE SCHOOL DEPARTMENT BUDGET IS TAKEN CARE OF BY STATE MANDATES AND THEY DON'T HAVE CONTROL OVER 80% OF THE BUDGET?

THEY ARE NOT MAKING HARD DECISIONS IN THEIR REGULAR BOWL.

HERE IS SOMETHING THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE A DECISION AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE ANSWERABLE TO TH CONSTITUENTS THAT GOT THEM IN OFFICE.

IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THEY MAKE THEIR DECISIONS.

I DON'T THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT THE AVERAGE VOTER WHO IS VOTING FOR THESE ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH OR DON'T HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.

WE HAVE TO GIVE PEOPLE MORE CREDIT.

WE ARE ALL ADULTS.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO WHAT IS BEST FOR OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES AND WORRY ABOUT OURSELVES FIRST.

>> I SPOKE WITH A WOMAN, SHE IS A MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST, A DOCTOR, MOTHER OF THREE, SHE WENT TO THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE FOR THE FIRST TIME BECAUSE OF THIS ISSUE.

MAUREEN: SHE DID NOT WANT TO WEAR A MASK?

>> SHE WANTS THE CHOICE OF BEING ABLE TO DO THAT.

SHE DOES NOT WANT A MANDATE.

WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THAT OR NOT, IT IS GETING PEOPLE INVOLVED IN DEMOCRACY.

AND FORTUNATELY, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY DID NOT PASS THAT BILL ABOUT REMOTE MEETING, THEY HAVE TO FACE THEIR PEOPLE IN PUBLIC.

>> WHAT DID SHE DESCRIBE IN THAT MEETING?

YOU HAD THE TOWN COUNCIL PRESENTING ONE SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT AND ALLOWING -- THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE -- ONLY ALLOWING ONE SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT THAT IS BASICALLY FEELING THE DEPOSITION THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO GET, THAT THEY WANT THESE MASK MANDATES AND THEY ARE NOT ALLOWING ALTERNATE POINTS OF VIEW, DIFFERENT PEOPLE TO GIVE THEIR OWN OPINIONS.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS A FUNCTION OF DEMOCRACY WHEN WE HAVE ELECTED OFFICIALS SUPPRESSING PUBLIC COMMENT AND DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW.

>> BEFORE WE MOVE ON, THE POLITICS OF THIS, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S RACE.

YOU SEE PEOPLE PILING ON MICKEY.

WE ARE A YEAR -- PILING ON MCKEE.

THE GOVERNOR BRUSHED OFF NELLY AND SAID, THIS IS A DESPERATE MOVE FOR RELEVANCE.

THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR THAT BECAUSE HE IS THE GOVERNOR.

MAUREEN: I THINK IT WAS A MISSTEP BECAUSE I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE ISSUE -- HE WAS WAITING FOR, AS WE GO DAY AFTER DAY, MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING SERIOUS ABOUT THIS AND REALIZING IT.

I THINK HE THOUGHT IT WOULD UNFOLD BY ITSELF.

BUT I THINK IT WAS A MISSTEP AND I UNDERSTAND ARGUMENT THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING.

I THINK NELLY GOT IN BECAUSE SHE HAD TO SAY SOMETHING AND IT WAS VERY POLITICAL AND SETH JOHNSON.

-- JUMPS IN.

I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO MATTER IN THE LONG RUN BUT IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THIS IS AFFECTING PERCEPTIONS.

>> LET'S COMPARE IT TO WHERE HE WAS TWO WEEKS AGO BEFORE THE WATERFIRE KERFUFFLE.

>> I WOULD HAVE SAID [INDISCERNIBLE] WOULD HAVE BEEN A STRONG CANDIDATE FOR THE RACE, NOT TO BE THE GOVERNOR.

BUT SOMEONE WHO CAN COMMAND THE MICROPHONE, WHO CAN MAKE PEOPLE TAKE POSITIONS, WHO CAN HAVE IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS ABOUT SCHOOLS OR POLICE POLICY.

THREE WEEKS LATER, HE HAS THROWN UP ON HIMSELF.

THIS HAS BEEN A DISASTER FOR HIM.

I STILL THINK HE HAS THE MONEY AND THE EGO, WHICH ARE PROVIDENCE MAYORS HAVE, TO RUN, SO I THINK PEOPLE RUN FOR GOVERNOR BUT I THINK HE IS IN THE TANK AT THIS POINT.

JIM: IT IS GOING TO BE A TOUGH ROAD FOR HIM.

HE WAS COUNTING ON THAT VOTER BLOCK AND WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH REDISTRICTING.

PROVIDENCE AND THE URBAN CORE TENDS TO VOTE FOR PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES, SO HE WAS HOPING ON THAT, BUT WITH HIS MISSTEPS, I DON'T THINK HE CAN RECOVER AND GET ENOUGH VOTES IN THE REST OF THE STATE.

>> DOES THIS PROVIDE A CLEAR PATH FOR THE LIBERTARIAN CANDIDATE?

>> DO WE SEE A PATH TO 5%?

>> WE ARE NOT LOOKING TO WIN, WE ARE LOOKING FOR OUR GOVERNOR CANDIDATE.

JIM: YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

LET'S STAY IN PROVIDENCE.

THE CITY COUNCIL HAD A MEETING THE OTHER NIGHT AND YOU HAVE SIX TAKEAWAYS.

YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS.

I THINK THE WINNER, BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE IN PROVIDENCE, I THOUGHT THE WINNER WAS CHIEF CLEMENS.

DAN: CHIEF CLEMENS IS PROBABLY THE BEST Q SCORE OF ANYONE IN PROVIDENCE, HE IS PROBABLY THE MOST TRUSTED INDIVIDUAL IN PROVIDENCE.

HE IS A BIG BRAND UNTO HIMSELF.

HE WAS ABLE TO COME OUT AND DISAGREE WITH THE MAYOR, STEP AWAY A LITTLE BIT, DISTANCE HIMSELF TO SOME DEGREE WITHOUT SOUNDING LIKE A PERSON THAT WANTED TO LIKE HIS HAIR ON FIRE.

HE MADE IT CLEAR, I NEED MORE OFFICERS.

>> HE HAS THE CACHET TO DO THAT.

DAN: HE ALSO MADE THE POINT THAT IS TRUE, THAT VIOLENT CRIME IS DOWN.

YOU CANNOT MAKE UP THESE NUMBERS.

SHOOTINGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, WHICH HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK LATELY, BUT THEY ARE NOT RECLASSIFYING THEM.

IT IS NOT THE OLD STORY.

BY THE CRIME TO SOME DEGREE IS DOWN.

HE HAS A GOOD STORY TO TELL AND HE SAYS, I NEED MORE HELP.

I THINK THE CITY COUNCIL IS GOING TO LISTEN.

MAUREEN: I AGREE.

THE IDEA THAT HE WANTS ANOTHER CLASS, AND I THINK THEY SHOULD I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE A HARD RECRUITING, TRYING TO GET MINORITIES IN, AND I THINK THEY OUGHT TO PAY THEM MORE MONEY AND WE NEED THE FULL COMPLEMENT.

HE IS COMING FROM A POSITION OF STRENGTH.

I KNOW VIOLENT CRIME IS DOWN, BUT THERE IS A PEAK GOING ON.

>> THAT IS WHAT GRABS THE HEADLINES.

>> BUT IT MAKES PEOPLE NERVOUS.

ON A FRIDAY MORNING, THERE WAS SOMETHING THIS MORNING, SOMEBODY GOT SHOT.

THAT IS GOING TO HURT -- AND THE BUSINESS OWNERS WHO COME FOR THE PANDEMIC AND NOW THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT -- PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO COME TO PROVIDENCE.

>> DID NOT WANT TO COME TO PROVIDENCE LAST SUMMER BECAUSE OF THE PROTESTS, NOW THE VIOLENCE.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT THAT DEFINED THE POLICE CROWD DID NOT SHOW UP AT THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING -- DEFUND THE POLICE CROWD DID NOT SHOW UP TO THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING.

NOT TO BRING THIS BACK TO A LIBERTARIAN PERSPECTIVE BUT THIS IS SOMETHING, DEFUND THE POLICE IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE A COMMUNITY FUNDED POLICE DEPARTMENT.

I THINK THAT IS THE POSITION THAT THE LEFT TRIES TO PUSH, BUT I THINK THE PART THEY ARE MISSING IS A LOT OF THE FUNDING FOR THESE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE COMING FROM FEDERAL MONEY AND COMING FROM NOTARIZATION OF THE POLICE AND TRAINING PROGRAMS THAT ARE COMING IN THAT ARE NOT CONGRUENT WITH WHAT THE COMMUNITY'S GOALS ARE.

THIS IS WHY YOU ARE GETTING THIS FRICTION BETWEEN THE POLICE THEY ARE GETTING AND THE POLICE THEY WANT.

THERE SHOULD BE MORE RESPONSIBILITY ON THE CITY TO PAY THEIR POLICE FORCE, POLICING IN A MANNER THAT COMMUNITY WANTS AND ALL THE WAY TO DO IT IS TO FUNDED FOR YOURSELF BUT WITH THE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS THE CITY IS HAVING, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

DAN: WHENEVER I HAVE COVERED THE CITY COUNCIL AND MY EDITOR IS LIKE, NOBODY CARES, CHANGE THE TOPIC, I ALWAYS SAY, THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN PROVIDENCE IS THE AGE VOTES ON THAT CITY COUNCIL, THE MAJORITY.

RIGHT NOW, THE ANSWER TO IS DEFUND DEAD, THE ANSWER IS YES.

NEXT YEAR, PROGRESSIVES ARE GOING TO WIN SEATS AND YOU WILL SEE CHANGES IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE CUTS.

MAUREEN: I DISAGREE.

I THINK EVEN RUNNING FOR OFFICE, IF THEY RUN FOR REELECTION, ARE THEY GOING TO RUN ON DEFUNDING THE POLICE?

>> THERE WILL BE A BACKDOOR.

DAN: I THINK YOU WILL SEE A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE THAT RUN TO THE LEFT, THEY WILL TRY TO MAKE IT NOT DEFINED AS THE ISSUE, YOU RUN FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, BUT YOU GET EIGHT OR NINE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO ARE OVER THE DEFUND OR REPURPOSE MONEY, I THINK YOU WILL SEE POTENTIAL CUTS IN THE DEPARTMENT.

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CUT THE DEPARTMENT IN HALF, BUT YOU WILL SEE SLOW AND STEADY CUTS, I THINK, AND REPURCHASING OF MONEY.

JIM: ONE LAST THING BEFORE WE MOVE ON.

I WONDER ABOUT CHIEF CLEMENS AND COMMISSIONER PERRY, THEY COULD RETIRE AT ANY TIME.

THE ATV ISSUE, THAT WOMAN GETTING PULLED OUT, SHE BEEPS AT SOMEBODY AND SHE IS GETTING BEATEN UP BY SOMEBODY ELSE ON ATV.

THERE NOT SEEM TO BE A SHORT-TERM FIX FOR THAT.

DAN: THAT IS THE STUNNING THING BECAUSE IT IS THE BIGGEST QUALITY-OF-LIFE ISSUE FACING THE CITY AND NOW IT HAS VENTURED INTO A DANGER SITUATION.

I DO BELIEVE THE CHIEF AND THE COMMISSIONER WHEN THEY SAY, IT IS HARD.

>> DOWN THE ROAD, THEY CAN ELUDE THE POLICE.

THEY'RE NOT WANT TO SHOOT THEM.

DAN: DESPITE WHAT TALK RADIO MIGHT WANT, YOU CANNOT SHOOT THEM OFF THE BIKES.

MAUREEN: BUT THEY DID TALK ABOUT HOW THEY ARE GOING TO TRY TO BLOCK THEM AND NOT CHASE THEM.

BUT IN A SENSE, THERE IS A CULTURE, IT HAS BECOME OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS, IT IS LIKE A FUN THING.

THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.

>> WE DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT REDISTRICTING BUT I WANT TO GIVE YOU GUYS PLENTY OF TIME.

OUTRAGE OR KUDOS THIS WEEK?

MAUREEN: IT IS SORT OF A NOTE OF CAUTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, A LITTLE BIT OF AN OUTRAGE.

A WEEK AGO, SOMEBODY FROM THE POST, THE WASHINGTON POST, PUBLISHED A STUDY OR ESSAY ABOUT THE FACT THAT PROVIDENCE WAS THE SIXTH MOST CORRUPT STATE IN THE UNION.

IT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO GET OVER OUR PAST.

>> WHAT DO THEY BASE THAT ON?

MAUREEN: STEALING.

AND I HAD SOME DATA AND IT SHOWS , JUST FEDERAL CRIMES FROM 1998 TO 2008, CONTROLLING -- THIS IS AN ACADEMIC STUDY -- CONTROLLING FOR POPULATION, RHODE ISLAND COMES OUT 34TH IN THE COUNTRY.

IN OTHER WORDS -- WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MALFEASANCE, BUT THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT IN OTHERS.

THEY ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT FELONY CONVICTIONS.

THEY ALSO INTERVIEWED JOURNALISTS FROM EVERY STATE AND ASKED THEM TO RANK THE LEVEL OF CLEAN OR NOT CLEAN -- THEY DID NOT USE CORRUPTION -- ON A SCALE, ONE BEING VERY CLEAN AND SEVEN BEING CORRUPT.

RHODE ISLAND CAME OUT TOP.

THAT MEANS THAT REPORTERS AND THE GENERAL LORE CONTINUES TO SUGGEST THAT WE ARE A VERY CORRUPT STATE, AND WE ARE NOT.

I LOVE THE OLD STORIES, I LOVE TALKING ABOUT QUATRO, BUT THE REALITY IS, I'M DOING SOME WRITING AND I SAID TO SOMEONE, I'M DOING A BOOK ON PROVIDENCE AND THEY SAID, OH MY GOD, WHAT A STORY.

THERE HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN THE STEREOTYPE THAT WE ARE HORRIBLY CORRUPT IS NO LONGER TRUE.

>> IT IS THE COLONISTS.

>> THE OPINION MAKERS.

I PARTICIPATED IN THOSE STUDIES.

NOW I CAN THINK ABOUT IT -- I ALWAYS FIND MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE.

YES, THERE IS CORRUPTION.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, IT IS MORE OF A IN OUR HEADS AND HOW WE FEEL.

>> WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE -- I WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL IN MASSACHUSETTS AND I USED TO ARGUE WITH A GUY AT THE COLLEGE NEWSPAPER FROM MARYLAND, WHO IS MORE CORRUPT, MASSACHUSETTS OR MARYLAND?

WHAT YOU HAVE THIS WEEK?

>> NOW WE ARE COMPETING WITH NEW JERSEY.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE MASK MANDATES BEFORE.

ONE THING WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE REMEMBER IS WHILE RHODE ISLAND DOES HAVE A GOOD STORY WHEN IT COMES TO OVERALL VACCINE RATES, IF YOU START TO LOOK AT CITIES AND TOWNS, USE EVEN SOCKET, PROVIDENCE, CAN BUCKET, NEWPORT, 53% OR LESS WHEN IT COMES TO FULLY VACCINATED IN THE STATE.

THAT IS RIGHT AROUND FLORIDA TERRITORY.

DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON IN FLORIDA, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FLORIDA AS THE EPICENTER RIGHT OF THE VIRUS AND OF THE RESURGENCE OF THE VIRUS.

MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE IN THESE CITIES AND TOWNS AND IT IS NOT NECESSARILY MANDATES.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE WAY TO GO.

YOU HAVE TO GET OUT THERE AND REALLY PUSH.

IT CANNOT BE HARD-TO-REACH COMMUNITIES CANNOT BE JUST BECAUSE THEY SPEAK SPANISH.

MAUREEN: ALSO, THAT LENDS TO THE POINT THAT SPIKES IN DELTA VARIANTS, HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE IN SOME OF THESE RURAL COMMUNITIES.

YOU WOULD THINK THAT THEY WOULD GET THE MESSAGE THAT THERE IS A THOUGH RATE OF VACCINATION AND A HUGE SPIKE.

>> BUT YOU CANNOT GET INTO PEOPLE'S MINDS BECAUSE -- AND I TAKE THE LIBERTARIAN VIEW.

IF YOU WANT A SHOT, FINE, I'M NOT GOING TO PUSH IT.

YOU SEE THESE PEOPLE -- BOTH MY PARENTS DIED OF CORONAVIRUS BUT I'M STILL NOT GOING TO GET THE SHOT.

HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THAT?

THERE IS A POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T.

BILLY: I WAS 18 ON SEPTEMBER 11, SO MY ENTIRE ADULT LIFE, WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH WAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND WITH EVERYTHING GOING ON WITH THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALIBAN TAKING OVER ALL OF THE PROGRESS THAT WE MADE, IF YOU CAN CALL THE PROGRESS, I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME THAT WE REEVALUATE OUR INTERVENTIONALISTS FOREIGN POLICIES AND GET BACK TO FOCUSING ON PROTECTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND NOT GETTING INVOLVED WITH INTERNATIONAL ENTANGLEMENTS THAT CREATE BLOWBACK AND MORE PROBLEMS FOR THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS DISHEARTENING TO HEAR THE NEWS WHAT IS GOING ON IN AFGHANISTAN AND IT SHOWS THAT THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS BEEN A WASTE OF TIME, MONEY, AND AMERICAN LIVES.

JIM: LET'S ELABORATE ON THAT.

WE WILL SAVE REDISTRICTING FOR THE EXTRA.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

AFGHANISTAN, YOU SEE WHEN TRILLION DOLLARS -- I KNOW WE COULD DO THIS FOR HOURS, BUT AS A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, WHERE WE HAVE BEEN IS DISHEARTENING BUT IT IS $1 TRILLION THAT SEEMS ALMOST ON THE TUBES.

MAUREEN: I AGREE WITH YOUR POINT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS A MESSAGE TO WITHDRAW FROM THE WORLD.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN NATO, WE HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN SOME OF THESE CONSTRUCTIVE THINGS.

BUT THIS WAS A BIG MISSTEP.

JIM: HUMAN GETTING GETTING IN 20 YEARS AGO AND THEN WE COULDN'T GET OUT?

MAUREEN: IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF PROBLEMS IN TERMS OF DISASTERS OR PEOPLE BEING OPPRESSED.

I DON'T THINK WE CAN FIX THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE CAN GO INTO DEMOCRACY BUILDING.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE ENGAGED IN THE LARGER WORLD WITH A GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

>> LIKE AND WE LEAD BY EXAMPLE, WHY DO WE HAVE TO LEAD BY FORCE?

MAUREEN: I'M SAYING WE HAVE TO BE ENGAGED, I'M NOT SAYING WE HAVE TO HAVE MILITARY ACTION.

DAN: EVERYTHING ELSE WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT COMES DOWN TO HOW PUBLIC SENTIMENT CAN PUSH THINGS.

CORRUPTION, MASK MANDATES.

SAME PROBLEM.

THERE WAS A WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING MENTALITY AFTER 9/11, AND HERE WE ARE.

>> TO TOUCH ON THAT, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER 9/11?

WE ENDED UP WITH THE TSA AND THE NSA, THE PATRIOT ACT, IT SCARES ME TO DEATH WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

WHAT DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO BE CREATED THAT IS GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OUR DAILY LIVES GOING FORWARD?

JIM: WHAT YOU THINK THE EFFECT IS ON JOE BIDEN?

IT IS A POPULAR ARGUMENT, WE SPENT ALL THIS MONEY, GEORGE BUSH GOT US INTO THE WAR, HE IS GETTING BLOWBACK BECAUSE WE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE STRIDES FOR WOMEN OVER THERE AND THAT TALIBAN IS COMING IN AND IT IS CHANGING THEIR WORLD.

WHAT POLITICAL EFFECT OF THIS HAVE?

MAUREEN: I THINK IT IS WHEN TO HURT HIM.

I DON'T SEE REPUBLICANS ARGUING AGAINST TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE, THAT KIND OF THING, BUT I THINK IT IS GOING TO HURT HIM.

I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO USE THAT, THEY ARE GOING TO USE THE BORDER -- IN THE MIDTERMS.

DAN: IT IS AN INTERESTING DILEMMA FOR THE REPUBLICANS, THE WAY THE PARTY HAS SHIFTED UNDER TRUMP.

THERE IS THIS RESISTANCE TO FOREIGN INTERFERENCE OR GOING AND GETTING INVOLVED IN THESE THINGS, WHEREAS HISTORICALLY, REPUBLICANS WOULD HAVE SAID THE DEMOCRAT IS SOFT ON THESE ISSUES AND WE ARE GOING TO COME IN AND WE WANT FORCE.

THINGS HAVE SHIFTED AND I THINK JOE BIDEN IS GOING TO FACE PRESSURE FROM BOTH SIDES.

MAUREEN: IT IS GOING TO BE ONE ISSUE THAT THEY CAN LEAD INTO.

THAT AND THE BORDER ARE GOING TO BE ISSUES.

JIM: I HAVE TO HOLD YOU THERE BUT IT IS NOT OVER, WE ARE GOING TO DO AND I STOP.

FOR THOSE LEAVING US NOW, THANK YOU.

FOR THE REST OF YOU, GO TO RIPBS.ORG/LIVELY.

WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT REDISTRICTING.

IT IS GOING TO BE A WONKY DISCUSSION BUT THAT IS OK. COME BACK NEXT WEEK, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND AND COME BACK AS A LIVELY EXPERIMENT CONTINUES.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] ♪ >> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> FOR 30 YEARS, A LIVELY EXPERIMENT HAS PROVIDED ANALYSIS OF IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT FACE RHODE ISLANDERS.